Americans don't want change

[apples and oranges]

A Washington Journal caller said this and I agree. This is the sad truth:

Nobody wants a wind farm in their backyard

Nobody wants a nuclear plant in their backyard

Nobody wants to give up their favorite SUVs

Nobody wants to cut down on their driving

Nobody wants to be unemployed due to the drilling moratorium

The list goes on and on

[HughBeaumont]

1. Well, if America collectively DOESN'T change, it's going straight into the shitter.

A majority of the change needs to come from Corporate America and the wealthy that run it.

They can find out the easy way or the hard way.

"Still, it is so".

[Lasher]

2. Nobody wants mountaintop removal mining in their backyard.

Nobody wants a high tension power line going through their backyard but everybody wants electricity.

The phenomenon is not unique to needed changes. People want sacrifices made by the other guy.

[midnight]

3. Not to long ago, during the presidential primary, John McCain was making a

point about why immigrants were important. He said that most Americans could not and would not stand in the sun for hours and pick lettuce and then he quoted some outrageously high sum, something like 25.00 dollars an hour. Offers came in to do the work. McCain had framed his argument to meet his expectations. Something I'm guessing the media is doing here. The point is, that when these new technologies are put in place and people are able to use them, they will use them. This is really the most ridiculous reason to stay in the stone ages with old technology. P.S. I can't wait for Wisconsin to connect us to our neighboring states via our new high speed rail system.

[MadHound]

4. Bullshit, lame bullshit

I know plenty of farmers here in the midwest who love having fields rented out of wind turbines. I know people who have given up their SUV's and are driving less. No, not many people are big fans of nuclear, but then again nuclear needs to go on the scrap heap of history, it is expensive and dangerous.

This is simply another excuse for inaction and indecision. People in this country do want change, and those who don't, well, that's part of the president's job, to change minds, to change the culture.

But to come out and give the sort of blanket statement you just did, well, that's simply just wrong.

[Laelth]

7. Those farmers like the income from the wind farm, perhaps.

But I think it's safe to say that nobody wants to listen to those things, and nobody wants to deal with the strobe effect they create when the sun shines behind them. And, sure, some people have given up their SUVs, but they wouldn't have bought them in the first place if they didn't want an SUV.

We need to change, yes. But there is very little will to change. I think the OP is accurate in its assessment of American attitudes on this subject.

And nuclear power works, whereas wind and solar do not. It is more expensive than coal, but, as the French have shown, it is safe and reliable and it contributes little to global warming.

We will have to go nuclear sooner or later. Otherwise, we will just continue to foul the planet with cheap coal energy.

:dem:

-Laelth

[MadHound]

8. I know quite a few farmers that have leased land for wind turbines,

They not only like the money, but they like the notion of being part of the green energy revolution. As far as noise goes, well, they and their livestock get used to it, after all, it isn't a major noise factor and after the livestock gets used to it, they have no problem grazing around it. And strobe effect:eyes: please, that's just lame.

Yes, people bought SUV's, for whatever reason. But then again, they shed SUV's like leaves in October, or have you forgotten those lots upon lots of SUV's that didn't sell?

And nuclear power works, until it doesn't. The French aren't a great example, since they've been having to shut down their nukes for the past few summers as drought lowered the water level of the rivers to the point where the nukes couldn't run. It is not only more expensive than coal, but also more expensive than wind and solar these days.

What is needed is a change in our energy production paradigm. We're hooked on the central power source method, but what is needed is to go to a decentralized model, where every building becomes a power source through wind and solar, connected by a smart grid that ships excess energy to where it is needed, even if it is a thousand miles away.

The thing is, a decentralized power generation system wouldn't make money for the current energy lords in coal, nuclear, etc. Thus, we're going to dick around on implementing it until it is too late, and once again, corporations will have won. Wind, solar and other green alternatives can power this country, but they can't be profitable for the current crop of corporate energy giants, thus they are going to be shunted aside, as they have been for the past thirty five years. And thus, we all will lose.

[Laelth]

12. The noise is very significant.

Wind power blows. It creates massive industrial blight, and it isn't reliable. I will provide my list of links, if you insist, but I doubt that you can be reasoned with on this subject.

And for that reason, I will bid you adieu.

:hi:

:dem:

-Laelth

[unhappycamper]

16. Yes, but wind generators are lower in arsenic, lead and mercury emissions.

Some lakes in New England are completely lifeless due to those emissions.

[MadHound]

19. Very significant? You must have some extremely sensitive ears,

And be driven absolutely mad by the sound of modern cities then, because weighing in at 55 dB, wind turbines are quieter than factories, offices, stereos, your car on the freeway, and the ambient noise that is found in one's home. If you find wind turbines so noisy, you're probably kept up at night by the sound of your cat crossing the floor. I mean really now.


Here's a DOE link concerning wind turbine noise. Educate yourself.
<http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/ne_issues_sound.asp>

Furthermore, this is industrial blight, notice the pollution spewing into the air?


This is what wind turbines look like, giant pinwheels spinning around and around.


And guess what, since they're out in the country, most people won't see that much of them, whereas with our current energy generation paradigm, we all are effected by pollution and such.

Oh, and wind power no longer means just wind turbines. Now there is wind power for small home owners, namely wind belts. Go educate yourself on them, you might find that you too want to put up an array.

[Laelth]

21. O.K. You insisted.

Try hearing those noises over, and over, and over in a regular pattern for hours on end. It proves to be very disturbing, as a great number of people have documented. Besides which, wind power doesn't even work. People want power 24/7 and not just when the wind is blowing. If wind power really worked, we'd still be using sail-powered ships to cross the ocean. That is not our preferred method because the wind is unreliable.

Feel free to educate yourself, but I doubt you will.

Wind Power BLOWS.

See the following:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/08/25/wind-turbine-bats.html
http://www.keepersoftheblueridge.com/faqs.html
http://www.nortexwind.org/index.htm
http://www.stopillwind.org/index.php
http://windconcernsontario.wordpress.com/
http://www.savewesternny.org/
http://www.wind-watch.org/
http://www.epaw.org/
http://www.windturbinesyndrome.com/?p=166
http://www.rivercitymalone.com/?p=654
http://spectator.org/archives/2009/04/21/the-unbearable-lightness-of-wi
http://notesfromotherside.blogspot.com/2009/04/more-on-renewable-energy.html
http://www.pest-03.org/ (Power Engineers Supporting Truth)

Or just watch this series of videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNxvkrgoPLo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_utFV2ukOtU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOd5tSZF3A4&feature=related

There's more, but you get the idea. :)

:dem:

-Laelth

[MadHound]

23. Wow, that's an impressive list of links, did you vet them before you put them up?

Because if you go and do a little digging, you find that the people behind them are many times linked to coal and other fossil fuel dinosaurs. Not terribly credible.

And frankly even you're smarter than to post a link from The American Spectator, oh, wait, I guess you're not.

Again, let me repeat, wind turbines generate 55 dB, they are quieter than the ambient noise of a freeway, or the ambient noise inside your house. Repetitive or not, they are still pretty darn quiet. Oh, and if you are outside a quarter mile radius, the noise fades drastically. Funny, most windturbines are out in the country, or out at sea. Hmm, most folks can hardly hear them.

Yes, one wind turbine, generating on its own, provides unreliable power. That is where the beauty of a decentralized power generation grid lies. Because while your wind turbine may not be turning, they are turning somewhere within a few hundred mile radius, and you can ship that power from one place to another, from a place of power generation surplus to one of power need.

Oh, and you don't just rely on wind turbines either. Things like solar panels, windbelts, trash incineration, methane generators, you use and combine all of these green, clean renewables. We have the capability to do this, we simply need the collective political will.

[Laelth]

24. I've heard that one before, and it's only half-true.

Yes, the coal industry helps some of these groups for selfish and evil reasons, but the wind turbines still create great harm and they don't work. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I do not support the continued use of coal, but the fact that coal sux does not mean that wind power is good. It isn't. If it really worked, that would be different, but it doesn't because the wind doesn't blow 24/7.

Just watch the videos at the bottom. Those are real people telling real stories about the damage done by wind plants. They seem very credible to me.

But there's no chance that you're going to actually educate yourself about this because you have already made up your mind. So, again, I will bid you adieu.

:hi:

:dem:

-Laelth

[MadHound]

28. Ah, you're projecting now

"But there's no chance that you're going to actually educate yourself about this because you have already made up your mind." Looked in a mirror lately?

But hey, it's nice that you're at least admitting that your sources are biased. I mean really now, the American Spectator? C'mon.

But as far as the viability of wind energy, go tell Germany or Denmark that wind energy isn't viable. Germany is currently getting eight percent of its energy from wind, and climbing, while Denmark generates almost twenty five percent of its energy needs through offshore wind turbines.

And again, wind turbines aren't the be all and end all of wind energy. Every single home in this country can generate energy from wind using wind belt arrays. Here, educate yourself.
<http://www.humdingerwind.com/> You could even build one yourself:shrug:

Wind, solar, and other renewables are the way to go. They are cheaper and cleaner than nukes, coal and other such power generation. They can handle the load, the only drawback is that a decentralized net doesn't generate money for the corporate energy producers. Oh well. Do you really think that we need to continue to generate massive obscene profits for the likes of them?

[Cresent City Kid]

29. Your point on decentralizing the power sources is worth repeating

The whole 20th century was spent creating new ways to use the power from the late 19th century version of supply. Think about how you would bring power to a place that has none like an African village. I envision small generating sources near a few things that they would power, plus they could be networked like you mentioned.

Doing this in the US is a massive undertaking. We would be further along in the process if we hadn't blown it off for the last 30 - 40 years.

[MadHound]

31. Over thirty years ago I started research this topic

And using late seventies tech, we could have cut our use of coal, oil and natural gas in half by the year 2000 if we had engaged in a serious push for renewable energy sources. One half, using seventies tech. Yet instead Reagan came in, took the solar panels off the WH and threw renewable energy on the trash heap.

Yet even without the support of the federal government, individuals and small entrepreneurs have developed wind and solar to the point where they are cheaper than nuclear power, and the price is falling.

But a decentralized energy generation strategy doesn't make money for our corporate energy overlords, so while we pay lipservice to energy independence, our country does nothing significant to pursue it. Instead, we keep burning more fossil fuels and now have a big push to bring back nuclear power, a huge mistake.

Hopefully we will wake up in time, but somehow I doubt it. Thus, it's going to continue to be left up to individuals. Me, I'm going to put on some of those new thin film photovoltaic panels on my roof within five years. Nothing like selling energy back to the grid and powering my home with the sun.

[Cresent City Kid]

33. More "power" to you - pun intended

We have a tendency to wait for crises instead of avoiding them. We'll get our new grid, after massive blackouts.

[Laelth]

22. And here are some more pictures for you of industrial blight.

All of these are wind plants. Most are not in use now ... because they don't really work. The others exist only because of government subsidies. They have to be subsidized because they don't really work. They can not supply the 24/7 power that Americans demand.










There's more, but you get the idea.

:dem:

-Laelth

[MadHound]

25. Love those photos,

They show electricity being generated quietly, renewably and pollution free. Sure, they look a little intimidating close up, but if I could direct your attention back to those photos for a second. . .

Notice something? Look closely.

Oh, yeah, that's right. Unlike factories that belch pollution, and coal plants that rain down more pollution, these windturbines aren't located in a city. They are in places like NW Missouri, or central KS, or northern Texas, or out at sea, or up in the mountains, places where the vast majority of people won't see them unless they are passing through the area.

And frankly I've talked with and read about a number of people who find them to be aesthetically pleasing, and kids seem utterly fascinated by them:shrug:

[TheKentuckian]

30. Absurd cross to die on there. Do you have any concept of how subsidized carbon is?

Without Pax-Americana, the wars, direct subsidies, tax breaks, and socializing the environmental damage if all that cost was transferred to the pump or furnace our society would just halt.

Appearance and very mild noise are lame cop outs. All the damage of every windmill in the world doesn't equal a single stripmine. Having been in coal country, your pictures seem utterly meaningless. Wind should be a big part of the mix and if the noise drives you nuts then maybe you can swap with some poor souls drinking toxic water near a mine. Property in the Gulf will also be available, I'm certain.

Noise and light distortion?!? Subsidies??? LOL!!!!!!!

[MadHound]

32. But hey, we should go with nuclear,

Even though it is more expensive than wind and solar, and is heavily subsidized by the taxpayer.:crazy:

Interesting thing about wind power. In 1993 the US DOE did a survey of wind resources in this country, and found that we were rich. There is enough wind power, using '93 wind tech, in just three states (SD, KS and TX) to power our whole country, including factoring in growth, until 2030.

But the thing is, wind, solar and other renewables don't make the big bucks for our current corporate energy overlords, so this vast resource is, for the most part, going to go untapped until it is too late. Sad, truly sad.

[ProgressiveVictory]

18. +1

[stuntcat]

5. that's "conservative" for ya

The future will happen whether the knuckle draggers want it our not.

I think windmills are pretty, I don't know why any humans would rather keep burning tons of coal and polluting the air.. maybe because the crap being dumped in the air is invisible :shrug:

Thanks to "Conservatives" I've given up on the future completely. I'm glad my years are half over.. I kinda dread the next 40 years I'll live through.

[Laelth]

6. Very true. We need our leaders to lead.

They need to make some tough calls, for the common good, that will tick off a lot of people.

Will they? I doubt it.

:dem:

-Laelth

[ixion]

9. Americans are going to have to change, whether they 'want' it or not...

that is the Simple Truth.

When you're using an unsustainable model for a society, that model will eventually fail. There is no 'want' about it.

[SoCalDem]

10. Americans was the good things they are too young to have experienced

and the wonderful new gadgets they grew up with..and they want money for their old age, without having to save for it.. They want fancy cars, cheap gas, big houses for 20-yr ago prices, & 60" tvs.

(Too many Americans want this)

[mix]

11. That is where leadership comes in...and there is little in this White House. nt

[mikita]

13. Oligarchs don't want change

and it doesn't matter much if American serfs want it or not.


This is media deflection of issues away from the real problem, as they are answering to their corporate masters too.

Americans overwhelming would like to see us out of our state of "occupation", but think that's gonna happen while there's money to be made?

So what "Americans" want is of little consequence, and the endless wars are just one example.



We could cut our "dependence on oil" DRAMATICALLY if we stopped our military incursions.

Plus, we'd have trillions of dollars to throw at our own TOO BIG TO FAIL internal problems like the GULF, our WATER, our AIR.

But it isn't going to happen, because the current model favors those with the power.

[Jenny_D]

26. EXACTLY!

The Oligarchs don't want change. It won't happen as these puppet masters are calling all the shots in our government.

Maybe I wouldn't want a nuclear plant in my back yard, but I wouldn't mind converting my home to geothermal HVAC. The public schools in my district already are. What about building an infrastructure for vehicles to run on vegetable oil?

Instead of throwing $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ down the drain on wars for oil in the Middle East, why can't we use that money for research and into subsidies for existing, clean, renewable energy sources? In other words, not just reduce our dependence on FOREIGN oil, reduce our dependence on OIL all together.

[tom_paine]

35. Exactly. n/t

[mmonk]

14. I think they do. It's just many have been fooled by endless propaganda

and are confused as to the nature of our problems.

[jp11]

15. I think it is more about Americans feel entitled to all of the above

we are 'consumers' and thus feel 'correct' in consuming, what we want when we want it, why should we conserve or do less it is our 'right' to do what we want.

Now if Americans were made aware that the way it is done isn't the only way, that there are other options and many if not all of them have positive effects where the 'old' ways have many negative effects we'd see change. If it is left to the free market or the people, most aren't going to change, life is good and politicians will gladly work to keep things as they are until it isn't possible to keep people happy and quiet, using and consuming.

[lunatica]

17. That's simply not true

Not everyone resists wind farms and most Americans don't own or want a SUV and many Americans would prefer not to have to drive just to go anywhere and Americans would be happy to be employed in renewable energy industries.

That's all bullshit.

[Romulox]

20. How come the kind of "change" we get never shuffles the deck? Rich stay rich, poor stay poor.

:hi:

[depakid]

27. Want has nothing to do with it...

See my sig line...

[blueworld]

34. Most people prefer the comfort of "same old", it's human nature

But I don't think it means they would actively fight change they know is necessary. They need leadership & an honest assessment of what their sacrifice means. They'll do it if they can see it making a difference. And if they can see the greedy corporate killers held accountable in some important way.

My parents didn't "enjoy" rationing of sugar, coffee, nylon, whatever, but they did it with a smile for an important cause & along with everyone else. I wasn't enamored with cleaning out cans & glass for recycling, but I did it proudly (after the band-aids came off).

We need a comprehensive National Energy Policy that outlines STEPS & GOALS over a period of years. We need tax penalties or incentives to reinforce that policy. I believe this President can do it, particularly in light of this national nightmare - he can request sacrifice of Americans & he should. And most importantly he can get back in the face of the GOP who are puking up their opposition bs. It's time they acted FOR the country & national security & stopped putting party before patriotism. They can go back to partisan politicking later.