"America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

[Are_grits_groceries]

Two hundred and thirteen years ago today, President John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli, which included the following statement:
Article 11 reads:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,-and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

According to Frank Lambert, Professor of History at Purdue University, the assurances in Article 11 were "intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers."<18> Article 11 has also been cited by 21st-century church/state separatists as one of several documents - including the Federalist Papers papers and the Declaration of Independence - that demonstrated, according to Author Brooke Allen, that the Founding Fathers "... were not religious men".

The Senate's ratification was only the third recorded unanimous vote of 339 votes taken. The treaty was printed in the Philadelphia Gazette and two New York papers, with no evidence of any public dissent.
http://www.theygaveusarepublic.com/diary/5863/america-is-not-in-any-sense-founded-on-the-christian-religion

Bite that!

[LARED]

1. I don't get it

That treaty essentially states "we are not a theocracy, so we won't try to institute a Christian form of government" has been used to make the case that Christianity's role in the ideals and actions of the founding fathers is a myth.

There's got to something better than this to make the case.

[Are_grits_groceries]

2. There are different ways.

However, I don't know of anything that is as direct and emphatic as Article 11.

People try to point out that many Founders were Deists. The other side points out the religion of the others and the mention of Gawd in many documents.

If there is a more direct and unambiguous statement of Article 11 and its intent, I want somebody to let me know. No sarcasm. I really would like to find other sources that are this straightforward.

[baldguy]

3. There are.

Article VI, section 3 of the US Constitution:

"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

and the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".

[Are_grits_groceries]

4. That's true.

IMHO, this is more direct and addresses any other ways to wiggle around that.
.."As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

[LARED]

5. That's a good one.

The OP states

America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

My point is that many of America's founding values, principles, ideals, etc are based on Christian thought and world views. To deny this by pointing to treaties or even the Constitution is twisting history. The reality is America was founded and built up large;y by people that held a Christian world view permeating all aspects of society from personal lives to public policy.

[Are_grits_groceries]

7. That there are Christian values used throughout our history

misses one vital point. Many of these values are held by people who are not Christian. They are not Christan virtues alone. The Golden Rule is stated in some way in most religions.

Using virtues as a guide is one thing. To use a specific creed alone as the basis for govenment is the road to a theocracy. That's what Beck and others want to twist it to mean.

This nation was built on decent principles that were presented by Christians. period. If they had been presented by ET, that wouldn't have made this an alien nation.

[OneGrassRoot]

10. Thanking you....

not only for this OP, and your intelligent, insightful responses, but for all of your contributions here.

You're one of the main reasons I continue to peruse DU daily.

Thanks. :hi:

[Are_grits_groceries]

12. Wow!

I am truly honored.

I told my students at the end of every year that I would always be somewhere stirring the pot and keeping an eye out. I wasn't sure if that comforted or scared them. Maybe both.

[Mimosa]

32. ITA with OneGrassRoot and add I'm a fan of Mr. Meh

Is Meh a mister or miz?

[Are_grits_groceries]

62. She prefers to be known as

Empress of the Universe and addressd as 'Your Mehness.' Who am I to question my overlord?

[Enthusiast]

84. I like your kitten too.

But she does appear to be somewhat of a sour puss.

Do you have any pictures of her when she is not being so......disagreeable?

[eShirl]

18. seconded!

[whathehell]

16. Correct....I made this point to a lady from Texas once...

She gave me that "Well, the founding father's built this country on Christian values"...I corrected her slightly by saying "on Judeo-Christian values, to be exact" and then told her that the most important of these values were already codified into secular law in the form of prohibitions on Murder, Theft and even Lying if it constitutes perjury.

..My point was "So what else do you want"?...She didn't know what to say.

Beyond that, of course, is the already mentioned point that "Christian values" are largely the same as Jewish values, Buddhist values and Muslim values....As far as I (and a young Sikh cab driver with whom I discussed this) can see, all the major religions have the same "values"...and I can't help but wonder if it's not the ignorance of more than a few that misses this point.

[Towlie]

28. "Christian values" are largely the same as Jewish, Buddhist and Muslim values... and ATHEIST values.

What you're really talking about are human values, and their source is independent of religion.

(... and, as you say, I can't help but wonder if it's not the ignorance of more than a few that misses this point.)

[liberation]

36. Religious people always try to twist morality as being dependent on religion

Religion and morality/values are two very different things:

Morality is doing the right thing even when told to do otherwise, Religion is doing what you are told regardless of whether or not is the right thing.

[whathehell]

37. According to most atheists here, atheism isn't a "religion" or even a stated system of values

Atheism simply holds no belief in a deity.

Many, even most, atheists may hold these "humane" values, but unlike religion or philosophy, it doesn't proscribe them.

[liberal_at_heart]

60. I can't speak for the poster but my daughter is an atheist

It is true that atheism does not necessarily prescribe religion. Some atheists are also what you would call humanists. Some aren't. And just as with any group of people you have your nice atheists and your jerks. But I think that the poster probably lumped atheists in with the other religions and philosophies because many religious people just assume that atheists have no moral compass and that is just wrong. Atheists have just as much of a moral compass as religious people do.

[whathehell]

91. Yes....I'm well aware that atheists are as inclined as the religious to have moral compasses..It's

too bad that on a progressive site, so many "jump the gun" and imagine a chorus of people here saying otherwise.:eyes:

[Towlie]

63. Atheists ARE, however, HUMAN, and morality is a HUMAN value. That was my point. Do you get it now?

As you say, atheism isn't a religion or even a stated system of values. An atheist is simply someone who doesn't believe that God exists.

Your claim to the Texas woman seemed to imply that a person could have morals so long as they had religion, and any of the religions you listed would do. That's wrong. Morality does not depend upon religion and an atheist is equally capable of having strong moral values.

The saying that http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8535216&mesg_id=8540566">liberation was trying to remember goes like this:

Morality is doing what's right no matter what you're told.
Religion is doing what you're told no matter what's right.

[liberal_at_heart]

66. oh, my daughter would love that saying. I'll have to tell her that one.

[Towlie]

67. Here's another one:

Philosophy: questions that may never be answered.

Religion: answers that may never be questioned.

[Enthusiast]

86. Another nice one, Towlie. nt

[whathehell]

93. Towlie...I know you're on a roll, and that quote reads as "pithy" but

like a few "pithy" saying, it's simplistic and wrong.

All religions are not doctrinaire...As a child, I had doubts about the religion I was raised in and when I mentioned them to my clergyman he told me to "Thank god for having the kind of mind that could think".

[Enthusiast]

85. This is a great quote!

"Morality is doing what's right no matter what you're told.
Religion is doing what you're told no matter what's right."

Where does it come from?

[whathehell]

90. Hey Towlie...try and "get" this:

What I was DOING was trying to get this woman to see that Christianity was not so different (or "better") than other religions....Sorry if, in our fifteen minute exchange, I didn't feel the ambition to take on the whole CONCEPT of God and Religion.


P.S. As an agnostic, I'm disinclined to "imply" that religious people are more ethical than non-believers....It seems that you, like all of us at times, were "seeing" what you wanted to...

Morality is a "human" value of some, perhaps most, but obviously not of ALL humans.

As for "liberation", I'd have to say that, just as atheism and morality are not mutually exclusive, neither are morality and religion.

[liberal_at_heart]

58. Human values. I like that. Nice post.

[whathehell]

92. But it needs a bit of tweaking.....There's a difference between "human" and "humane"

"Humane" suggests postive values of compassion, kindness, etc...Being merely "human" takes in negatives as well, like greed, hatred, anger, etc.

I realize that many here, identifying with Towlie's negative attitude towards religion, want to give him the old "right on" and that's okay, but you might want to save the applause for a time when he's able to construct a truly skillful argument.....Just sayin.

[spooky3]

31. You may be interested in this:

http://www.ffrf.org/shop/nontracts/Is-America-A-Christian-Nation/

This particular web page is brief, but there are other sources at the same site that address this and related issues.

For example:

http://www.ffrf.org/publications/freethought-today/articles/America-Not-a-Christian-Nation/

[defendandprotect]

45. And those "values" and rules of societies are older than Christianity . . . .

Christianity - Jesus/Yahweh/Gods -- all myths based on earlier myths!

Except for the Old Religion which was based on Nature and had no "god" --

[liberal_at_heart]

56. +1

[G_j]

70. everyone always forgets what they took from the Native Americans

http://www.kahonwes.com/iroquois/document1.html

The Great Law of Peace
New World Roots of American Democracy
by David Yarrow

<snip>

Iroquois and the U.S. Constitution

By the time the Declaration of Independence was signed, the Iroquois had practiced their own egalitarian government for hundreds of years. The Iroquois reputation for diplomacy and eloquence reveals they had securely evolved a sophisticated political system founded on reason, not on mere power. Accounts of the "noble savage" living in "natural freedom" had inspired European theorists John Locke and Jean-Jacques Rousseau to expound ideas that had ignited the American Revolution and helped shape the new direction of government.

But the Founding Fathers found their best working model for their new government, not in the writings of Europeans, but through their direct contact with the Iroquois League; for the Great Law of Peace provided both model and incentive to transform thirteen separate colonies into the United States.

George Washington, after a visit to the Iroquois, expressed "great excitement" over the Iroquois" two houses and Grand Council. Ben Franklin wrote, "It would be strange if ignorant savages could execute a union that persisted ages and appears indissoluble; yet like union is impractical for twelve colonies to whom it is more necessary and advantageous."

At Cornell's conference, Dr. Donald Grinde, Jr. of Gettysburg College presented evidence that Thomas Jefferson adopted the specific symbols of the Peacemaker legend. The Tree of Peace became the Tree of Liberty; the Eagle, clutching a bundle of thirteen arrows, became the symbol of the new American government.

Grinde also brought the revelation that "one of the framers, John Rutledge of South Carolina, chair of the drafting committee, read portions of Iroquois Law to members of the committee. He asked them to consider a philosophy coming directly from this American soil."

The Great Law of Peace laid out a government "of the people, by the people and for the people" with three branches. The Onondaga, the Firekeepers, are the heart of the Confederacy. Similarly, the U.S. presidency forms an executive branch.

The League's legislative branch is in two parts: Mohawk and Seneca are Elder Brothers who form the upper house, while Oneida and Cayuga are Younger Brothers, similar to the Senate and House of the United States Congress. The Iroquois" equivalent of a Supreme Court is the Women's Councils, which settle disputes and judge legal violations.

<snip>

Another speaker at the Cornell conference, Gregory Schaaf, Ph.D, recently discovered a cache of Morgan's papers in an attic of Susannah Morgan, 94-year-old family heir. In his book The Birth of Frontier Democracy from an Eagle's Eye View, he writes: "Before the Revolution, members of the Continental Congress met with Iroquois ambassadors to learn how they governed themselves. A Chief advised, 'Our wise forefathers established Union and AmityI this made us formidable. We are a powerful Confederacy, and if you observe the same methods, you will acquire fresh Strength and Power.'

After meeting with the Iroquois in 1754, Ben Franklin first proposed creating a colonial Grand Council in the 'Albany Plan of Union': 'One Government may be formed administered by a President, and a Grand Council chosen by representatives of the people.' Franklin's plan for a Grand Council of United Colonies resembles the Iroquois Grand Council."

<snip>

[JDPriestly]

73. Montesquieu's De L'Esprit des Lois also had a huge influence.

The French version on line.

http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/montesquieu/de_esprit_des_lois/de_esprit_des_lois_tdm.html

and in English

http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/montesquieu/de_esprit_des_lois/de_esprit_des_lois_tdm.html

Take your pick. There are other copies on line. This will open your eyes if you haven't already read it.

[droidamus2]

8. Just a question

Were the values, principles, ideals really 'Christian thought' or did the religion just incorporate the values, principles and ideals that were most accepted in earlier religions, societies or non-religious philosophical beliefs into their dogma to make it more palatable? The early supporters of the christian religion were very good at bringing in new followers by working the old celebrations and rites into this new religion so people would better identify with it.
I have heard the argument that 'without religion we wouldn't have these values' which I totally reject as I believe what religions do is bring together and codify (usually to their own benefit) ideas that socially evolve outside of the purview the church. Are we to believe that with out 'the church' that people would not believe that 'thou shall not kill'? The other logic question is if it is stated 1) Many of the founding fathers were religious (okay for the sack of argument let's say christian) 2) The founding fathers wrote the Constitution which is the basis of our country in law 3) therefore this is a Christian nation (no matter what documents seem to suggest they did not intend it to be) does 3 necessarily follow given 1 and 2? I and many other don't think so.

[defendandprotect]

46. Agree -- all of the myths came from earlier myths -- the "values" and

rules for behavior, however, are all from earlier times -- pre-Christianity.

[donco6]

11. But to compare their idea of Christian world view to that promulgated today -

by the likes of Palin or Dobson or Fred Phelps or the Dominionists (all different by the way) is erroneous. They're apples and bananas. Using the term "Christian world view" as if there IS just one is also ignoring history.

[piratefish08]

13. most founding fathers were Deists NOT Christians. the terms are not interchangeable.

[Alcibiades]

43. Thank you!

And even most of the ones who were Christians were pretty much only so in a nominal sense.

[CBGLuthier]

15. John Adams was there. You weren't. Are you calling John Adams a liar?

[treestar]

26. I think they were rebelling from it a bit

The founders were Deists, or many of them, using the word "Creator" - not Jesus.

They wanted out of the sectarian killings and wars of Europe.

The thought they took after was Locke, etc., not the Bible.

[defendandprotect]

47. True -- they had seen the soil of Europe soaked in blood for centuries ....

and understood that you can't have free thought, free will and free conscience

without Separation of Church and State --

they also rightly feared the power of capital --

and they were right!

But Church and Capitalism are threats to democracy -- i.e., fascism

[Towlie]

27. Bull! It sounds like you're claiming Christians own the exclusive rights to morality (or something).

Actually, we can only guess what you mean by "Christian thought and world views."

But yes, a lot of Christians live here and they constantly try to impose their control on the rest of us, sometimes with success, but in doing so they violate the principles upon which this nation was founded.

[fascisthunter]

40. not only bull, but crazy

[liberation]

34. So? Some of the founding fathers weren't Christian

Same shit you said about Christian "values" and principles could be said about agnostic and atheist principles as being part of our foundation. But guess what no body gives a shit... Just constrain yourself to what is written in the constitution, deal?

[Confusious]

38. Which christian values would those be?

the divine right of kings? I don't remember any voting going on in the bible, just OBEY OBEY OBEY!

What else? Free speech! Ask Galileo about that.

What else? Right to privacy? see divine right of kings, or the chuch.

what else? bear arms? Ultima Ratio Regum.

due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination? it's the inquisition BABY!

I think I've made my point.

[fascisthunter]

39. values and principles did not originate from the Christianity

these have been values and principals that have been based down through generations, through the evolution of mankind and his place in SOCIETY(a word right wingers hate).

To somehow pretend these things never existed before christianity is ridiculous and unfounded. Do you realize how long mankind has been on this planet. DO you truly believe those things just magically appeared? Think... don't just believe.

[Alcibiades]

41. No, no, no, no and no

The founders, particularly the most important ones, were creatures of the enlightenment, not Christianity. The reason we have a Constitution, a liberal democracy, and all the rest, is exactly because at this time in history there was space, a space of political and intellectual freedom from Christianity: they were not "permeated" as you suggest. If it is fair to say that their ideas and values "came from" Christianity may be true to some extent, but only to the same extent that it may be said that the ideas and values of Christianity itself came from Greek philosophy, Judaism, Zoroastrianism and paganism.

Please don't repeat right wing dominionist memes: it only encourages them. Unless you're mischaracterizing what you actually believe, it would seem you are wrong with regard to the question of the relationship between the founders and Christianity, particularly of the organized, sectarian variety. Here's a book I recommend highly:

http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Minority-Skeptical-Founding-Fathers/dp/1566637511/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276311478&sr=1-1

[Dr.Phool]

64. Ever hear of the principals of the Enlightenment?

Self government, liberty, freedom of speech. Those are not christian values.

The Founding Fathers witnessed the bloodshed in Europe, and early America that was caused by different warring christian sects. That's why they chose a purely secular government.

[JDPriestly]

74. Thanks. I posted something similar to yours above.

Unfortunately, students no longer study the Enlightenment. It is absolutely essential to read Voltaire, Montesquieu, Diderot, John Locke, etc. if you want to understand our Constitution.

[Dr.Phool]

89. Don't forget Tom Paine.

"Man will never be free, until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest".

Diderot

[JDPriestly]

72. Actually, many of our values, principles, ideals, etc. are based on the

thought of the Enlightenment. If you read the correspondence between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, you will see that they both delighted in reading Enlightenment philosophers, studying science and had very little that was positive to say about traditional religion. Read the letters for yourself.

[Kablooie]

35. no law respecting an establishment of religion has alternate interpretations.

I've heard argued that it only means that Congress shall not make a law that establishes or creates a religion.

This interpretation allows that laws may single out religions because Congress is not establishing them.

Some of the wingnuts push this of course.

[liberal_at_heart]

54. This is what confuses me on how some of the states have state constitutions

that forbid people who do not recognize God from serving in public office. I would think the US constitution would void any state constitution that tries to make a religious test to qualify for public office.

[Junkie Brewster]

6. The treaty of Tripoli states that we were not founded as a Xian nation

No one is saying that Xianity didn't have a role in some of the ideals and some of the actions of some of the founders. However, it proves that the US was not founded as a Xian nation, that the 10 Commandments aren't the foundation of American law, and that our country does not exist to exalt Christ. It's sad that it has to be pointed out so often, but there are a lot of people who seem to want to obfuscate our origins and pretend that our purpose as a nation is to promote Republican Jesus.

[droidamus2]

9. I agree its sad

That's what amazes me about the Republican Jesus/Christians is that when they talk about 'a Christian nation' it is a very generic reference to the religion. Is that a Catholic nation? Probably not people would have a problem with our country answering to the pope. Protestant, well which version of the Protestant version of Christianity are we talking about? Is it Southern Baptist, evangelical or what? Maybe Unitarian? Though test many sects of the Christian religion are based on the same Jesus story they are by far not monolithic in the way they would apply that in ruling a country.

[safeinOhio]

20. Tell them the US was based on

the Jesus story as told in the Jefferson Bible, making this a small "U" unitarian country.

[JDPriestly]

76. Yes, those who claim that this is a Christian country should read the

Jefferson Bible. They will then understand what kind of Christian thought influenced our Founding Fathers. They were scholars, students of history and science, not blind, ignorant, true believers.

[bhikkhu]

79. ...or the record of the constitutional convention

Madison recorded blow-by-blow and word for word the concerns, debates, compromises, etc that came to form the US constitution. There really isn't any other record that compares, or gives us as valuable an insight into the intents and mindsets of the founders. There is next to no references to religion, and fewer to christianity.

[JDPriestly]

75. The Adams family was Unitarian, probably more deist than some of

today's Unitarians, but nevertheless Unitarian.

[lakercub]

81. The idea of the ten commandments as a foundation of our laws slays me

1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

>>>The First Amendment to the Constitution is diametrically opposed to the first three commandments. It isn't even debatable. 30 percent of the commandments are completely contradicted by the First Amendment.

4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

>>>I know of no federal law anywhere that states we need to keep any day holy or that on any day it is forbidden to work. There have been some blue laws to this effect in various places, but nothing like a national law. If the Ten Commandments are the basis of our laws, why then have our federal laws wiped out the first three commandments and completely ignored the fourth?

5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

>>>I see no federal laws respecting how one should act toward their parents. So long as one does not aggressively attempt to harm one's parents, the act of disliking or ignoring parental figures appears to be perfectly acceptable within federal law. We certainly SHOULD honor our parents (though some are not honorable and their children can certainly be excused for not honoring them), but there is no law saying we must. We still have three wiped out commandments and we have ignored two more.

6 “You shall not murder.

>>>There are all sorts of federal laws prohibiting murder, and rightfully so. So this commandment is certainly a part of our federal law. However, this rule and many like it pervade all nations laws whether they be Christian Buddhist, Shinto, whatever. If the Christian case for our laws being modeled after the commandments is based on this, that's pretty weak sauce. Every civilized country prohibits murder and many of those countries couldn't care less about the commandments. So we are still trhowing out three commandments, ignoring two more, and following one that damn near everybody follows in most religions and most nations.

7 “You shall not commit adultery.

>>>People in this country commit adultery all the time. It becomes a civil issue in divorce court, but it certainly no longer leads to criminal prosecution (the stupid recent case in NY notwithstanding). The Constitution does not appear to mention adultery anywhere. Our tally now still includes three thrown out commandments, three that are virtually ignored, and one that is hardly unique to Christianity.

8 “You shall not steal.

>>>This goes along with murder. We have all kinds of laws that agree with this commandment, but so does everyone else, including those that don't care about the commandments. Three contradicted, three ignored, two that everyone has.

9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

>>>Perjury. Most civilized countries have this one too. Three contradicted, three ignored, three that everyone has.

10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

>>>This one is completely and totally contradicted, not by the Constitution, but by capitalism. The end goals of capitalism are all about coveting. We want what our friends, family, and neighbors have, so we try to make as much money as possible to get those things as well. If we didn't covet, and we simply tried to acquire only that which we needed, we probably wouldn't be in any way shape or form a capitalist society. Quite frankly, I wish this commandment was followed a little more often. But, as it stands, this one violates what every Republican believes America is all about. Getting yours.

I believe its patently obvious our federal (and most of our state) laws aren't based on the ten commandments at all. In fact, they violate or ignore them all the time.

[Toots]

21. You do know a Treaty is "The Supreme Law of the Land" just as the Constitution is.

:shrug:

[defendandprotect]

49. Except when made with the Native American . . . or if George Bush doesn't like it -- !!

[defendandprotect]

51. And here it is according to George Washington . . . MOVED

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. -George Washington, Treaty of Tripoli, 1796

[defendandprotect]

52. dupe --

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. -George Washington, Treaty of Tripoli, 1796

[Towlie]

25. Well, beside that we have the very first provision of the First Amendment of our Bill of Rights.

Of all the provisions included in the Bill of Rights, which in many cases consist of multiple provisions within the same amendment, the Freedom of Religion clause appears to have been the most important to our Founding Fathers, based on the fact that it was the very first to be listed.

The contention that the United States was founded as a "Christian nation" just doesn't hold up to scrutiny, no matter how much those unamerican Christians want it to. You don't have to be an atheist to object to their efforts, you only have to believe in our Constitution.

[astroBspacedog]

48. James Madison said it here.

Memorial and Remonstrance
Against Religious Assessments

James Madison
<1785>

To the Honorable the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia
A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments


We the subscribers , citizens of the said Commonwealth, having taken into serious consideration, a Bill printed by order of the last Session of General Assembly, entitled "A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," and conceiving that the same if finally armed with the sanctions of a law, will be a dangerous abuse of power, are bound as faithful members of a free State to remonstrate against it, and to declare the reasons by which we are determined. We remonstrate against the said Bill,


1. Because,we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. "Snip"

The rest of this, (sections 2 through 12) are here.
http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/madison_m&r_1785.html

[JDPriestly]

77. REASON, the religion of the Founding Fathers. That's the truth.

[burnsei sensei]

55. This cements it.

Every treaty we make is legally binding, it is a contract with more than just one particular nation.
The statements made in the 1796 treaty are binding not just in 1796, but with respect to the here and now.
I use this treaty when I teach American history. If you add this to the establishment clause you have the case for separation of religion and government.
I don't like using "church and state" because it indicates that this statement applies only to Christianity.
We must make sure the wall of separation means every kind of religion and political activity.

[JDPriestly]

71. The leading Founding Fathers were admirers of the enlightenment

philosophers. They were very suspicious of religions and many of them strongly disliked and distrusted the Catholic religion. There was already a lot of religious diversity in our country.

Don't forget. The Founding Fathers, even those who were religious, had to have been very aware of the many Wars of Religion that impoverished European countries had torn them apart. We have been blessed that, until now, we have not fought a lot of wars about religion. Unfortunately, Christian fundamentalists have infiltrated our military and some of them seem to think the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are about Christians versus other religions.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

83. I think Article 11 makes a pretty good case

It is also interesting that the first treaty we ever signed was with a Muslim nation.

[NC_Nurse]

14. Goddamn right.

;-)

[mmonk]

17. According to the Constitution, a ratified treaty is a supreme Law of the Land.

Thus according to the Constitution, it has been established by the Law of the Land that we are not founded in any sense on the Christian religion.

[burnsei sensei]

57. Every American citizen

should know this.
And all should look with a critical eye at our policies in light of the Geneva Convention.
It is also the reason we must, must, must sign onto the ICC.

[mmonk]

87. Americans are the most uninformed populace of any 1st world country hands down.

I use that term 1st world very liberally because in my heart, I no longer view the US as a 1st world country except in military prowess. But there is no excuse for Americans to be uninformed enough not to know either.

[burnsei sensei]

88. I agree.

There are too many dynamics going on here that are typical of the Third World to ignore.
A First World country is one in which income inequality is not so great.
In other words, it is a country that is generous to its own people by way of infrastructure and rates their needs as first priorities.
The United States has been out of that loop ever since Reagan.
In this country, a quarter or more of children grow up in poverty.
It has been that way since the 1980s.
We are a Third World country. And Barack Obama and his sympathizers should be told that to their wealthy, self-righteous faces.

[1Hippiechick]

19. LOVE "Christian RELIGION": how man has twisted SPIRITUALITY to justify his wants/needs/actions.n/t

[AngryAmish]

22. Why did we need to make and sign the Treaty of Tripoli?

ANyone?

[Towlie]

30. to make peace with the Barbary Pirates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

[NAO]

23. This is a smoking gun against the Founding Christian Father myth, but not the only evidence

It is patently obvious, even without the Treaty of Tripoli, that the Founding Fathers were in many cases not Christians.

The only reason it even seems remotely possible is because of the intellectual climate of the time. Two factors: First, (nearly) everyone affirmed belief in some kind of creator god. That this was not the God of the Bible is clear from the writing of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, among others. Second, everyone recognized a "christian" morality (as opposed to a barbarian amorality), but this was more a reflection of cultural morality rather than specific guidance from the Bible or the Popes.

In any case, the Treaty of Tripoli, and that it passed without much comment or mention in the press, is definitive proof that there was not the sense that America was a "Christian Nation" or founded on "Christian Principles".

[FiveGoodMen]

24. And American Xtianity is not, in any sense, founded on the teachings of Jesus

But that doesn't stop them.

[janx]

59. I wouldn't go that far.

There are a few Christian churches and multi-denominational churches that still examine the New Testament.

[WinkyDink]

61. There is no such thing as "American" Christianity. Catholics aren't Lutherans who aren't UCC who are

not Presbyterians....you get the point.

[Subdivisions]

29. Well, according to Rep. Rex Duncan (r) of Oklahoma, the U.S. was founded on

Judeo-Christian values and because of that he feels compelled to support a law that will preempt any attempt at "liberal judges" observing Sharia law in instances where a plaintiff/defendent observes Islam.

http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/06/oklahoma-state-senator-aims-to-stop-liberal-judges-from-imposing-sharia-law.php

What a world...what a world...

[JDPriestly]

78. Generally, American courts refuse to review theological issues.

So Sharia law would not be appropriate as a basis for making a decision in a case in the U.S.


Same goes for Christian theology or Jewish law. It's a no go. Would a Muslim really want a Catholic judge deciding Sharia law? That's silly.

[Joanne98]

33. Ever heard of Michael Tsarion?

June 08, 2010 — At the time Akhenaten became Egypt's pharaoh during the XVIII Dynasty circa 1350 B.C., Thebes was the capital and its patron god, Amun, the most powerful of the Egyptian gods. Amun had delivered Egypt at the start of the New Kingdom, driving foreign occupiers out of the land. The priests that served Amun were powerful and held as much as 30% of the land. Known first as Amonhotep IV, the pharaoh changed his name to Akhenaten during the fifth year of his reign, banishing the old gods and instituting what some scholars have called a "religious revolution."
Akhenaten and the Cult of Aton
Rejecting the traditional Egyptian gods, Akhenaten took the extraordinary step of moving the capital to a new city, built from scratch on the east bank of the Nile at Amarna. It was called Akhetaten or the "horizon of the Aten," and would stand for thirty years. Moving his court to the new city, Akhenaten vowed never to leave, a decision that would have negative implications.
Aten was the sun disk, the Re of old Egypt, personified in the pharaoh who was both the son and intermediary. According to Bob Brier, the idea of the sun disk first appeared "a thousand years earlier during the Old Kingdom." Similarly, Nicolas Grimal argues that Akhenaten's beliefs were not revolutionary or new, but could be traced back to old theological teachings coming out of Heliopolis in the Old Kingdom period.
Writing much of the liturgy himself, Akhenaten's most well known poem of adoration was his Great Hymn to the Aten which has often been compared to the Old Testament Psalm 104. The notion that Aten somehow promoted monotheism is debated. Grimal points out that "Atenism" was a reflection of "the common ground of Semitic civilizations."

Michael Tsarion on Akhenaton, the Cult of Aton - part 1 of 6

[old mark]

42. Rec...Great post and the truth...hard for some to take even here amongst

"liberals".

Thanks.

mark

[fascisthunter]

44. oh my.... more evidence that the christian right have been lying

and like most extremist groups, trying to shove their lies down our throats. It doesn't matter to them, because when you believe and only believe instead of THINKING one bullshits themselves into whatever makes that one feel comfortable and secure. Believing is like any attribute... too much and it becomes a detriment not a value.

[Blue-Jay]

50. What the fuck does a founding father know about America?

NOTHING! That's what.

[defendandprotect]

53. And here it is according to George Washington . . .

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. -George Washington, Treaty of Tripoli, 1796

[jgraz]

65. I think we should start pointing out to Christians what their religion is founded on.

Mithras, anyone?

[Warren DeMontague]

68. Well then, how are we gonna put a stop to all this dancin', sinnin', and fuckin', then?

Huh? Huh? HUH????

[WCGreen]

69. Yep... #98

[Captain Boomerang]

80. It doesn't matter what you know or write....

The Christian fundies and their Conservative insane clown posse will continue to twist the facts.

Eventually, they will spread their bullshit so thick that historical books will be re-written to support their views and they will have their Theocracy.

Then they can go smoke all the meth they want and hang out all day with casual but discreet male prostitute friends.


"Thank you Jesus."

[Enthusiast]

82. Thank you for reminding us.

This would not, unfortunately, stop American fundamentalists from subverting the constitution, and the intent of the founders, at the very first opportunity. I listen to their words. I know what they say.