Vegan couple sentenced to life in prison

[MrPrax]

Vegan couple sentenced to life in prison for death of malnourished baby

ATLANTA (AP) - A vegan couple has been sentenced to life in prison for the death of their malnourished six-week-old boy, who was fed a diet largely consisting of soy milk and apple juice.
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Superior Court Judge L.A. McConnell imposed the sentences Wednesday on 27-year-old Jade Sanders and 31-year-old Lamont Thomas. Their son, Crown Shakur, weighed just 3½ pounds when he died of starvation on April 25, 2004.

The couple was found guilty May 2 of malice murder, felony murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty to children.

Defence lawyers said the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to the lifestyle of vegans, who typically use no animal products.

AP via Yahoo News
(not much more in the link; short bulletin)

Where do rather opinionated people start when confronted by such a story? So many tangents and so little hard drive space...

:popcorn:

[Beelzebud]

1. No different than religious nuts who dont' take their children to the doctor and pray for a cure.

Send them to jail.

[ComerPerro]

78. I agree, and I don't think religious nuts would have been given life sentences

[ourbluenation]

2. I think life is too harsh. n/t

[Warpy]

47. It is. The verdict was based on raw emotion

and the sentence upon sensationalism.

I'd still like to know more, namely whether or not this was a classic "failure to thrive" baby and why they didn't walk across the street to get him checked out. Was poverty an issue? Depression? Completely blinkered pig ignorance? WHAT?

I have a feeling that without a confession of intent, this sentence will be reduced on appeal, or perhaps a new trial will be ordered.

[wildhorses]

3. they could take out their babymaking parts and, let them back

out in to society:evilgrin:

:popcorn:

[theoldman]

6. It would be much cheaper to sterilize them than to support

them for the next 50 to 60 years.

[MrPrax]

16. Cheaper than community 'pre-natal' services

with SUPPORT for people who CHOOSE alternative methods?

I suggest that route as opposed to 'penance route' so favoured as a first resort by our mighty Judeo-Christian civilizations.

[theoldman]

4. If two people are this ignorant they cannot make it in the outside

world. I may get flamed for this but I think the sentence is a little harsh for ignorance. Many people commit premeditated murder and get off with much less.

[SteelPenguin]

82. I think the argument is that they weren't ignorant

They weren't sentenced because they were ignorant. They were sentenced as they were because their trial had determined that their excuse was bunk. They think they made it up later.

There's more to this trial than a couple of ignorant kids. They were convicted of premeditately murdering their infant child. That's pretty heinous.

[piedmont]

5. They, and their defense lawyers, are lying scum.

"Defence lawyers said the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to the lifestyle of vegans, who typically use no animal products."

Absolute, total, unadulteratd BULLSHIT. There are millions of people who lead a vegan lifestyle and have no trouble whatsoever raising healthy babies. It's a simple formula: breastmilk and/or soy formula in the first few months, and then literally hundreds (if not thousands) of vegan solid foods after that. You'd have to be doing it wrong ON PURPOSE to starve a baby while claiming a "vegan lifestyle."

[Dawgs]

36. Agree.

I suspect this is why they got life.

The "vegan" part is what makes this a story, and it sounds like it was used as a pretty weak defense.

[On the Road]

44. On What Basis Can You be Sure They Were

doing it on purpose? People do all kinds of things out of sheer ignorance.

[piedmont]

56. On the basis that they fed the baby soy milk which stated on the container...

that it was not appropriate for babies, that they lied about what they fed the baby, that the baby was only 3.5 lbs when he died at six weeks of age, that they watched their baby starve for weeks without taking him literally across the street to the hospital, etc. etc.

[Rev. Mother Ramallo]

66. Yes

I was a month premature and I weighed over a pound more than this child did at 6 weeks!

[ComerPerro]

81. you are right about that

[SteelPenguin]

84. Yeah I think so too

Their story was really fishy. People don't become vegans without alot of knowledge. You also don't have two grandmothers supposedly actively involved in the baby's life who don't say anything and who are also ignornat. Nor do you claim you didn't take the baby to the hospital, literally across the street, until the very last instnat because of 'germs'.

It was all too convenient and made up. Heck even their apartment was in a BS state. The entire kitchen was bare, empty, nada, aside from a single box of soy milk, and single jug of apple juice in the fridge perfectly placed.

Completely and utter bullshit, I just wonder what the true story is.

[mike_c]

7. these folks were just ignorant, and a child died because of it....

Sending them to prison for the rest of their lives serves no good purpose at all. It doesn't bring the child back, and it doesn't protect society from them because they were never really much of a threat to society. They're just ignorant folks who thought they were doing the right thing and it turned out to be tragically wrong.

Why are we so obsessed with revenge?

[shanti]

i agree

this verdict makes no sense. yes, they are idiots, but this is just over the top.:( i hope they appeal.

[SteelPenguin]

86. The people at trial didn't feel it was ignorance

The evidence presented ripped apart the whole 'vegan' 'germaphobic' defense and established that it was premeditated.

The headlines are BS. They weren't vegans, nor germaphobic. That was their defense as to what happened. They weren't found guilty of ignorance or manslaughter. They were found guilty of intentionally murdering their child.

[JerseygirlCT]

114. You've got to work at it to be that ignorant.

What parent allows their child to waste away before their eyes? How do you do that?

[Recursion]

8. And now, I'll pimp an anti-soy site...

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

:popcorn:

[tubbacheez]

11. I agree. Most soy products are horrible for you. n/t

[midnight]

24. I drink soy creamer in my coffee. I had no idea that it was bad

for me. Can you give me a reason for me to assume that the creamer that is going in my coffee is worse than the cow milk.

[tubbacheez]

34. Check out the Weston Price site.

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html


Soy contains lots of protein and minimal fat, which makes it attractive in light of today's health advice. But it also comes with a heavy dose of chemicals that mimic estrogen.


Soy is inconsistently touted as a miracle food for just about everybody. Bodybuilding man? Eat more soy. Post-menupausal woman? Eat more soy. Schoolkids? Eat soy hot dogs. Vegan baby? Drink soy formula.


The one-size-fits-all marketing is amazing.


The only soy products proven safe over multiple generations of humans are the fermented forms (natto, tempeh, etc.) and the precipitated forms (tofu, etc). All the more recent soy-based inventions have zero track record. We think they are healthy only because the manufacturers tell us (and health magazines) so.


Small amounts, like coffee creamer, are probably not significant to do lasting damage. But people who guzzle soy milk and scarf down soy burgers daily would be wise to research what they are getting.

[Warpy]

58. Yet the people of Asia seem to have thrived on it

for thousands of years! Plus, they are capable of reproducing. What remarkable resistance to POISON.

I'd take alarmist sites like this with a pound of salt. I'd also suggest people focus more on the pseudoestrogens and worse in our chemically laced environment over the extremely small amounts in soy.

Don't forget that the dairy creamer you use as an alternative contains BGH, antibiotics, and other drugs the cow has been given to prevent the illnesses of overcrowding.

[flvegan]

70. 2 pounds of salt. The Weston A. Price Foundation is outright quackery

Dr. Joel Fuhrman has written a good piece about it, and it's been assembled here:
http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_dietary_myths.htm

[Recursion]

79. *shrug* nutrition is astrology

It will eventually develop into something like astronomy, but we're not anywhere near there yet.

[Recursion]

88. *shrug*

According to that site, it's been common for people in asian countries to eat a few tablespoons of fermented soy a day; it certainly wasn't eaten unfermented as a staple until after WWII.

And I'm with you on the chemicals; the amount of crap just in the plastic packaging of food is a lot worse than whatever's in a soybean.

[TahitiNut]

15. You can take my miso soup ... out of my cold, dead hands.

:rofl:

[Recursion]

21. Oddly enough

They're very pro-fermented-soy (tempe, natto, etc.). Just the whole "let's pretend this GM tofu Monstanto shoves down our throats is good for us" thing is what they don't like.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

31. My doctors

(one an MD, the other ND)both agree that un-fermented soy products inhibit the absorption of vitamins. Haven't drunk soy milk since I found this out.

[Rob H.]

100. Didn't know that re: inhibiting vitamin absorption

Good thing I switched to rice milk several months ago--and imo it tastes better than soy milk, anyway. :)

[mainegreen]

128. Just don't say nuttin' bad about my chocolate almond milk! n/t

[jeffrey_X]

132. weston a price foundation

"While many of its members are family farmers...."

"Specific goals include establishment of universal access to clean, certified raw milk and a ban on the use of soy in infant formulas. The organisation is an active lobby in Washington, DC on issues such as government food triangle definition and composition of school lunch programmes."

Seems to me they want people to drink milk. This article helps their cause. Did you really think the dairy industry was just going to sit back and watch????

[Ariana Celeste]

9. a very sad story all around.

I think life is far too harsh.

[warmonger456]

10. What's wrong with breastmilk?

I mean, unless there was a valid medical reason the mother chose not to breastfeed--did "no animal product" means she had to exclude herself as well? Jeebus, that's what they're for!! Whether you believe in evolution or creationism--to deny the function of your god given/nature given ability is just plain stupid in this case.

[piedmont]

35. Absolutely nothing.

It could be that she couldn't nurse for some reason. But that's still not an excuse for starving a baby.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. I would guess that they were uneductated vegans to the extent that

she was not getting the nutrition she needs herself to be able to produce breast milk. They are probably very nice people, but that doesn't mean they aren't stupid.

[Lance_Boyle]

94. 'very nice people'

do not, generally, sit idly by snacking on tofu burgers while their children quite literally starve before their eyes. These people may not have *intentionally* murdered their child, but they did sit by and watch that same child suffer an agonizing death-by-starvation for *weeks* before they saw fit to do anything about it. Life in prison is too good, IMO. Life in prison while subsisting on apple juice and soy milk might have been a better sentence, except for the whole "cruel and unusual" bit.

[RaleighNCDUer]

95. I say 'nice people' because I've never yet met a vegan who wasn't

nice - but that doesn't exclude them from being damned ignorant. A lot of people go into these things with a lot of mis-information and might have no idea that the vegan diet they prize could be fatal for an infant. And, as first time parents, they may not have seen that they were 'starving' the child -- which they, in fact, were not doing. They were giving the baby food which did not nourish it. It's not like they were withholding food - they WERE giving it the soy formula, but were too ignorant to see that it was not providing nourishment.

I would say it deserved a few years, less than five, for negligent manslaughter, not a life sentence.

I wonder, did they have no in-laws around to look at the kid and tell them it was in trouble?

[Lance_Boyle]

96. Soy milk, not soy formula.

Very much the same as if you approached me on the street and said "I'm very hungry" and I offered you a glass of water. Also please note that the child had ZERO medical care during its life. Responsible parents do not do that. Deluded religious zealots (and apparently also deluded diet zealots) do that. I still maintain that life imprisonment (with proper nutrition) is too kind a sentence for these monsters, be they monsters of stupendous ignorance or just your standard run-of-the-mill type monsters.

[RaleighNCDUer]

103. Sorry, you're correct - formula would have sustained the baby, but

the milk would not. My point is, life sentences should be reserved for people who are a danger to society - we don't need protection from these people, and 2 to 5 years should sufficiently impress on them not to do this again. I'd suggest the same for parents who tried to pray away appendicitis.

Now, if it can be proved that they deliberately conspired to starve the baby, that is a different matter. From what I've read, that is not the case. Just people confusing their beliefs with reality. Putting them in prison at taxpayer expense for 20+ years does no one any good.

Of course, I'm old fashioned. I believe prison should 1) protect the public from dangerous felons; 2) punish felons appropriately to their crime; and 3) rehabilitate felons so they will not continue committing crimes. These people are not dangerous to the public. 2-5 years would appropriately punish for a non-intentional death. Learning how badly they fucked up should be enough rehabilitation - they won't do the same again.

Let's save the prison space for career criminals.

[Lance_Boyle]

104. partially agreed,

but I have some notion, albeit not a perfect one, of what it might be like to enjoy the company of a starving infant over the course of its long, painful death. It is not something any rational person would sit through day after day, night after night, without consulting outside assistance. These "parents" spent *weeks* listening to their baby die, and did nothing to remedy the situation. Most parents would have been at the doctor's office on day two, if not day one. These fuckers went through day 30+ before thinking "hey, maybe something is wrong." If they truly are not hateful monsters who conspired to kill their baby in the longest, most drawn out, painful way possible, then they are what I would term "criminally stupid." Either way, life in prison with solid nutrition is too good for them.

[RaleighNCDUer]

105. Actually, starving is not all that painful.

As the baby cried, they feed it the soy milk - the baby's belly is filled, though getting no nourishment, and the baby stops crying. As the baby continues to fail, it would cry less and less. Starvation would be typified mostly by silence. At the last, the baby would refuse the bottle - maybe only then making the parents realize how badly wrong they were. Perhaps they did ask someone about the baby losing weight, in the first couple weeks, and were told quire rightly that it is not unusual for a newborn to lose a little weight, and they were too dumb to realize it was continuing to lose weight - after all, they were feeding it.

There are other things we don't know here - what was the economic situation of the parents, for one. Could they afford a doctor visit, or were they so in debt that they were afraid of piling on more debt? We don't know from this story just what resources they had - perhaps they did have all the expected resources, which would indicate criminal intent in the baby's death. In that case, a harsher punishment would be warranted. Even so, life is excessive and an unwarranted expense for the taxpayers.

[mzmolly]

110. Brava!

Very well said.

[ToeBot]

12. So were these headlines sponsored by the National Cattlemen's Beef Association or

the National Pork Board? Inquiring minds want to know.

[w4rma]

13. Dumb, stupid idiotic ruling. They were neglectful not murderers. Accidental death. (nt)

[Beelzebud]

18. Starving a child to death is not an accident.........

It takes time. It's not something you just do one afternoon.

[Mad_Dem_X]

76. EXACTLY. n/t

[SteelPenguin]

87. With 2 grandmothers around and participating as well

They weren't found guilty of ignorance, they were found guilty of intentionally murdering their child.

[JerseygirlCT]

115. Exactly. You really have to work at it to be that unobservant

I don't buy it.

What new parent doesn't obsess over every coo, burp and bowel movement? How the hell do you miss your child literally wasting away and not seek help? Most hospitals have a free info line now, where they could have talked with a nurse if they couldn't afford other medical care.

And anyone, but anyone would have told them the "diet" they had this baby on was garbage.

[AlCzervik]

14. Don't blame the vegan lifestyle, blame the neglectful idiotic moronic parents.

there are many more articles on this case showing clear neglect---soy milk is not the same as "Soy baby formula". No i am not a vegan, i'd like to be but i love bacon.

[tubbacheez]

25. When it comes to infant diet, vegans have a big dilemna.

Breastmilk, technically, is an animal product. What to do?


I see lots of home-grown recipes out there for "vegan baby formula", but there's frightfully little testing on their nutritional appropriateness. There's a lot more to faking breastmilk than balancing protein, fat, and vitamins into a smoothie. There are dozens (if not hundreds) of enzymes and acids and other important molecules that a baby needs.


Soy milk, and hence baby formulas based on soy milk, is chemically different from lactose-based formulas. Soy can make a thick white liquid, which gets marketed as "milk," but it is nothing like mammalian milk.


Newborn infants have never absorbed food through their digestive tracts before. In many babies, the digestive system won't be ready for a vegan smoothie. It seems a vegan baby's survival depends on being born big enough and strong enough to live on empty calories for a while, until old enough to absorb the kinds of nutrients provided by the parents' blender.


Since every vegan I know became one for philosphical reasons, my best advice to vegan parents would be to bend the rules for the baby's first year. Sure, the baby might be strong enough to go strict vegan from Day One. But why chance it for a philosophy?


Better yet, let the kid make an informed decision later in life.

[slowry]

28. Breast milk is vegan.

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[piedmont]

33. Thank you. I don't know why that's so hard for some to understand. nt

[slowry]

41. It's nobody's fault, except the propagandist's!

The Net is full of misinformation on soy, at both ends of the spectrum; soy gives you tits, soy prevents your body from getting any or most nutrients, soy 100 times a day will give you the power of flight, soy prevents forest fires, etc.

Usually such information is found on personal websites of: doctors (with an agenda), "nutritionists", and straight up hyper-pro- or hyper-anti-soy business-types, with no fucking clue. They may even link to actual, legitimate studies, but in actually reading the studies, it's easy to see it's mostly exaggeration (again, on both sides).

[Skidmore]

51. Human women have just reclassified to the

plant kingdom to prevent stupid acts like the one these people have committed.

[slowry]

68. Nobody ever said breast milk wasn't vegan.

It's not as simple as human = animal, therefore breast milk = not vegan. It's clearly the exception, and always has been.

Unless we're talking about Matrix-like human farming shit... onoes!

[wicket]

106. A DUer did a couple of posts up

n/t

[Skidmore]

107. I simply don't get the argument here.

So is cow's milk vegan? Same sort of animal by-product.

[yewberry]

108. What don't you get?

Seriously, I'm not being snide.

It doesn't make sense to you that breast milk is vegan?

[slowry]

111. Completely different.

Women who breastfeed their infants (presumably) aren't strapped to machines against their will, etc. I can't tell if you're being serious here... "no animal products" isn't a perfect definition for Veganism.

[gollygee]

112. Animals aren't hurt, injured, or used against their will

Moms voluntarily provide breastmilk to their babies.

I'm not vegan btw but I have vegan friends I've gone through La Leche League with.

[Chemical Bill]

54. Those unmerciful babies are exploiting their poor mothers.

:sarcasm:

[Ferret Annica]

83. Good answer, and very sneaky

how you slipped in a one lner from 'The Shining' into it.

[wicket]

32. Breast milk is actually vegan

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/kids.htm

The earliest food for a vegan baby is ideally breast milk. Many benefits to the infant are conveyed by breast feeding including some enhancement of the immune system, protection against infection, and reduced risk of allergies. In addition, breast milk was designed for baby humans and quite probably contains substances needed by growing infants which are not even known to be essential and are not included in infant formulas.

[tubbacheez]

40. Oh, I realize the vegan sites encourage breastmilk.

But the fact remains that breastmilk comes from the human animal. Thus, technically speaking, it is an animal product, and therefore something that strict vegans have decided to avoid.

[piedmont]

43. Would you please provide a link to an example...

of vegans avoiding breastmilk because it comes from the "human animal?"

[tubbacheez]

49. Sorry, some of my info comes from vegan friends, not the internet.

Seriously, they say "we avoid all animal products."


I ask, "what about breastmilk?"


They answer, "that's an exception, cuz it's good for babies."


I agree! It's a great exception to the general rule.


No need to modify the general rule to somehow include breastmilk as a non-animal food. Or maybe some folks prefer to define veganism as avoiding all non-human animal foods.


In all honesty, the sole question here is just a matter of how to categorize breastmilk. Is it a vegan food by definiton? Or is it a commonly accepted exception to veganism?


My sources told me the latter. Your sources may differ.

[piedmont]

59. So you don't have ANY sources that have mentioned people avoiding breastmilk because it isn't vegan.

Even your vegan friends who (correctly) identified breastmilk as an animal product were in favor of feeding it to infants.

[tubbacheez]

63. Are you even reading my posts?

I kept saying "technically". I'm talking about where to draw the line. A buddy and I had a similar discussion a while back. We found it interesting.


What are you after?

[piedmont]

72. I'm reading a non-vegan talking out his/her ass about what some vegans might do/think, yes.

I've never heard such a ridiculous thing as vegans not breast-feeding because breastmilk comes from animals. In your post above, you said "When it comes to infant diet, vegans have a big dilemna." If it's a "big dilemna," why can't you give a reference for a single vegan who argues against breast-feeding? It seems to me like you're trying to ascribe notions to vegans that just aren't true.

[tubbacheez]

74. I'm open to honest education on the subject. Insults will be ignored. n/t

[piedmont]

77. 1) I haven't insulted you. 2) You represented some ridiculous notions as fact...

and can't support them now because you made them up. Example: "Thus, technically speaking, it is an animal product, and therefore something that strict vegans have decided to avoid."

This is known as "talking out one's ass."

[flvegan]

85. It's the oral sex question

Show me a strict vegan that avoids it. I'll show you a very lonely strict vegan.

It's along the same lines as breastfeeding.

[piedmont]

92. Probably so.

It seems to be of the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" kind of fallacy. He knows that vegans avoid animal products (but not WHY they do), and he knows that breastmilk is made by an animal. So he puts 2 and 2 together and declares to the world that some vegans avoid breastmilk.

[piedmont]

93. .

deleted dupe

[yewberry]

67. Breast milk is vegan by definition.

Veganism isn't about a list of foods that are taboo. It's about doing less harm. Breast milk does no harm and is--TA DA!--vegan.

[tubbacheez]

71. Thanks, I hadn't heard that until now. n/t

[slowry]

45. None that I've ever heard of, honestly. Veganism can be strict, but not that strict. n/t

[tubbacheez]

50. The distinction is fresh in my mind cuz a vegan friend and I just discussed this a few days ago. n/t

[wicket]

57. What do they have to say about cars?

Do they drive them since oil comes from dinos.

[tubbacheez]

64. Didn't reach the issue. The talk was only about eating and diet. (shrug) n/t

[wicket]

89. Okie dokie

I'm more curious than anything :)

[flvegan]

80. No they don't.

Here:
http://www.vegsource.com/nutrition/kids.htm

[JerseygirlCT]

116. What in the world could the philosophical objections be to

feeding a human baby human milk?

That's what it's there for.

And a baby could live quite healthfully on just that for a year or so.

Any vegan who finds something objectionable in feeding a baby what nature intended really needs his/her head examined.

[blondeatlast]

17. "Vegan" had nothing to do with it, but "Criminally ignorant" just isn't as sexy.

And I'm a beef-loving carnivore of the first order. Don't let the media off so easy.

[spoony]

97. Yes, they're definitely trying to frame this a particular way

that casts vegans as either wrong or uncaring. It's sickening, but so common anymore.

[tubbacheez]

19. Similar case from NY in 2003

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9F0DE0D71438F936A35757C0A9659C8B63

[shanti]

23. and both couples

are black....hmmmm....so just throw the book at them :eyes:

[tubbacheez]

26. I share your suspicion, but correlation is not always causation.

I think it's worth investigating, no doubt, but I could not bring myself to conclude racism just yet... not on this evidence alone.

[shanti]

30. i know....

i shouldn't do that, but it's just that i see it so many times....sort of like the folks that are found to be innocent after what - 50 years in prison - and are then found to be innocent.

*getting off my soapbox*

[tubbacheez]

38. I'm somewhat encouraged that they have a lawyer...

who presumably raised any appropriate objections during jury selection.


An all-white jury trying a black couple, in Queens, NY, of all places, is somewhat suspicious, though. And I really hope the lawyer put forth a reasonable argument for mitigation of sentencing.


Maybe they can argue Ineffective Assistance of Counsel on appeal.


Then again, we don't have before us the same factual details that the jury had. Maybe there was some evidence that the couple knew things were going downhill for the baby and deliberately chose to "stay the course."

[jmowreader]

98. That's the George Bush Defense, right?

[MrPrax]

27. From that case:

"...''I don't see justice here,'' said Christopher Shella, a lawyer for Mrs. Swinton. ''That they made the wrong choice doesn't make it depraved, given how much they cared about their child.''

Mrs. Swinton, who is 32, gave birth to IIce at her home three months prematurely. They never received prenatal or postnatal care. In an interview yesterday as she waited for the verdict, Mrs. Swinton said she had been a wayward, 300-pound young adult when she decided to adopt the vegan diet. She and her husband of seven years, who is also 32, have been on it for several years.

Mrs. Swinton said she chose not to breast-feed IIce. After trying to feed her different kinds of commercial baby formula for several months, the couple decided to put her on a natural foods diet. Examining the label on commercial baby formula cans, Mrs. Swinton said she tried to replicate the chemical composition with natural ingredients, including ground nuts and puréed fruits and vegetables.

...

Members of several black advocacy groups attended most of the trial and after the verdict, some said that from the start, the mostly white jury was against the Swintons, who are black. The jurors, who deliberated for two days, had been sequestered since Wednesday morning, prompting Judge Richard L. Buchter to remind them as they were dismissed that "there's a war going on, and it's people like you serving in this system that is what America is all about."

NYTimes <-- this is an excerpt from a similar trial in 2003 in NY State...this is NOT details of the OP case in Georgia>

Last time I looked at the Georgia legal system:

Friday, April 20, 2007 - The lawyer for Genarlow Wilson, the Georgia teen convicted of aggravated child molestation for having consensual oral sex with a teenaged girl, has filed a habeas petition seeking Wilson’s freedom from prison and his removal from the sex offender registry. Black Web

Friday, April 27, 2007 - ATLANTA, GEORGIA -- Two police officers pleaded guilty Thursday to manslaughter in the shooting death of a 92-year-old woman during a botched drug raid last fall. A third officer still faces charges. Chicago Tribune

Now were up to date on the Georgia legal system for the month of April -- Are these vegans African-American too?

(edit to clarifiy)

[Eric J in MN]

123. Yes, this couple is black. NT

NT

[gratuitous]

20. Maybe they should have just beat the kid to death

I don't know what the proper sentence here is. Life seems pretty stringent when kids are killed all over the country every day by parents and live-in boyfriends who shake the kid, or otherwise inflict grievous enough injuries on an infant that it dies, and their sentences are typically 15 years or less.

[AlCzervik]

29. last night on Front line there was a really interesting program about teens

serving life sentences in Colorado, one of the interesting facts was that when parents kill their children they often receive a somewhat light sentence compared to when children kill a parent, the child receives a much longer sentence.

[AngryAmish]

52. Women who kill their babies tend to get light sentances

It is the same paternalistic crap that "she must have been crazy" as opposed to just depraved. This does not mean post-partum disorders do not exist. But the knee-jerk paternalistic reaction is that women are delicate flowers not capable of monsterous evil.

[dogday]

22. I fed my child Soy Milk at six weeks old

I believe it is also the age that they can have cereal and fruits... Sounds to me like they did not feed this child at all... What does being vegan have to do with this?

[kestrel91316]

48. I have never even had children and I know that they shouldn't have ANYTHING

other than breast milk or formula for the first 6 months, IIRC.

Here's a better source than me:

http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/baby/babyfeeding/1400680.html

This vegan info source says soy milk should NOT be fed in the first year.
http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/kids.htm

[dogday]

60. They make Soy Formula for Babies

Soy Formula is just fine.. Not soy milk, sorry for the confusion.....

[GreenArrow]

39. An idiotic, unjust, and inhumane ruling

Utterly stupid, pointless and wasteful.

That'll larn 'em!

[Beelzebud]

42. Inhumane is letting your kid starve to death.

[blondeatlast]

46. Yes, indeed.

:thumbsup:

[GreenArrow]

101. "two wrongs..."

In this case, one wrong was likely a result of ignorance, the other, the judge's, is a product of a vicious, reactionary, narrow minded and punitive cruelty. This ruling, this kind of "justice", is morally about this () far removed from the type of stoning to death incidents that typically raise so much ire on DU.

[Eric J in MN]

121. I agree. They may be stupid, but they're not murderers,

...and even murderers often get less than lighter sentences.

[slowry]

53. This has been posted 3 or 4 times btw!

I'm not complaining :). Hopefully, it's a chance for some to learn more about Veganism; the legitimate concerns and the scientifically unfounded fear-mongering, perpetuated by a small number of individuals and "organizations".

[bleedingheart]

55. There is ignorance and then there is sheer stupidity involved here

They are clearly ignorant vegans. I wonder how well nourished either one of them is..

They are stupid because anyone who doesn't realize that a baby that is that severely underweight is in trouble and they don't do ANYTHING to get help is just stupid and probably there is a mix of disregard.

Then again how many people are really that stupid?

I mean...who doesn't know what a healthy baby looks like?

Tell me what kind of adult thinks that an infant who is around 3lbs is healthy?

A life sentence seems harsh, but they have been sentenced because of their own actions...

People make choices...they chose to bring a child into this world and they made conscience decisions that led to the death of that same child.

They won't be the first people to sit in prison for doing something due to their own stupidity...

[Madspirit]

61. As Tragic as this is

...and this is tragic. A life sentence is bizarre. The average sentence for intentional murder, in this country, is 12 years. Here you have some obvious fruit loops, who were not trying to kill anyone but out of total stupidity did, getting life. This is a miscarriage of justice, imo. No malice, no forethought of MURDER, no intent, etc. It is absurd.

Also, there are many many healthy vegan babies. We have vegan friends with babies...little fat healthy bouncy babies. These kids didn't know what they were doing. Sadly.
Lee

[piedmont]

62. Is 12 years the avg sentence, or is it the avg time served?

Lots of people who got "life sentences" are walking the streets right now.

[Madspirit]

65. I'll be right back Piedmont

I found a cool government link that gives all those kinds of stats. I will be right back after I hunt it down in my email. I always email myself stuff.
Lee

[piedmont]

69. Sounds good, thanks. nt

[Madspirit]

75. Here is the link

Looking at my email I was wrong. It has now increased to 15 years. All the stats are somewhere here:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm

At the bottom of the page it links to a lot of different info. A lot is PDF and I HATE opening PDF files. This site is really useful though because it breaks things into race, gender, age, educational level of criminal, prison or jail, etc. You just have to wade through a lot to find what you want. Still, it's one of the best links I've found. There is also a link somewhere in my email to a Sociology site that gives a lot of info. I will find that too. This link I am sending now is just dry government stats.
Lee

[earth mom]

73. You would think the parents would read up a bit on the subject before turning away from formula

or breast milk. Sounds like they had not a lick of common sense. :freak:

Even though I don't think much of the medical industry these days, one good thing my childs pediatrician recommended was to add rice cereal to the formula.

[Tiggeroshii]

90. "no animal products"

Meaning, if there might have been an animal in or near the vicinity of the food while being made, they can't eat it?

That cancels out a whole lot of food.

[Eric J in MN]

125. Yes, a lot of foods aren't vegan.

Vegans don't intentionally eat dead animals or dairy or eggs.

[Alexander]

91. Good. Being vegans doesn't exempt them from being morons and bad parents.

I'm a vegetarian, too.

[GreenArrow]

102. unfortuanately, there are a lot of moronic bad parents

vegan and otherwise, rich and poor, educated and uneducated. Ignorance is endemic, but the better cure for ignorance is education, not revenge.

[Alexander]

120. Are you saying we should "educate" people who killed their child?

The poor kid died, either due to negligence or malice. Either one is grounds for jail time.

Some days I wish we had a "parent test" to see who is fit to parent and who isn't. Anyone who never passed the test would have any children they produce be taken away and put up for adoption.

I'm thankful it's just a wish.

[derby378]

99. It's like this...

Yes, my diet could stand to be healthier. I'm making some steps towards this by buying organic milk and other organic (preferrably local) products when I get the chance. And eating a few vegan meals might even help me lose weight and gain a little more spring in my step. Who knows? After watching Super Size Me, it's just amazing what a constant diet of heavily-processed food can do to a body, especially one that's been accustomed to vegan fare.

But veganism, to an extent, is also a form of dogma. And I don't believe in forcing any dogma on infants or animals. Crown Shakur was raised in conformity to dogma, and he paid the price for it. That is just flat wrong.

[Eric J in MN]

124. You could also say that eating kosher is "dogma"

...or "hallel" etc.

[derby378]

126. That's true...

Kosher and halal diets are dogmatic diets, but I don't see newborns starving to death on either of them. The important thing is that ever infant, toddler, and child get the nutrition they need to live healthy, happy, and productive lives. If you can achieve this within the confines of a dogmatic diet, that's great, but the child's needs must come first.

[yewberry]

127. Yes, but

a vegan diet isn't what killed this baby. Regardless of whether or not you think it's dogmatic, babies thrive on vegan diets all the time.

This couple starved their baby. He was six weeks old and probably weighed less than his birth weight. He never saw a doctor once.

As awful as it is, these folks starved the baby to death. It would probably be psychically easier to have something to blame for this, but those parents are what killed their child.

[Arugula Latte]

109. And yet, people who murder intentionally get much lighter sentences, often.

Makes.No.Sense.

[slampoet]

113. There is a cult in this country and it is the cult of children.....

....All the jury saw was a dead child and not parents like themselves.

[Alexander]

122. All I see are a couple of idiot parents with no business having kids.

They ended their poor child's life due to their own idiocy.

As another poster observed, it never occurred to them to bring the child to a doctor? They either have to be utterly devoid of any common sense, or they deliberately killed their kid.

Life in prison, particularly for white people, rarely lasts one's natural life. I'd say they got off easy, because they can be paroled after a few years, whereas their child won't be coming back.

[slampoet]

130. If you are a white freak that time can be a lot longer......

....just ask anyone jailed for a joint in the 60's

or any Mormon

or any 7th day adventist, Quaker, Shaker, or any other pacifist who was jailed for 25-45 years for refusing the draft during World War One.

[aikoaiko]

117. If the prosecutor made the case for malice, then life is fine with me.

The poor kid died at the hands of her parents.

[Odin2005]

118. Throw away the key.

They should of BROUGHT THE KID TO A DOCTOR, the fuckers.

[piedmont]

119. I don't buy their ignorance defense for a second

"They should of BROUGHT THE KID TO A DOCTOR, the fuckers."

Yep, and they could have done that by crossing the street

[BurtWorm]

129. I think life sentences are excessive.

I'm guessing from the names that the parents were African-American. I wonder if white vegans would be treated as harshly. I doubt it. (If the parents are white, I'll withdraw my suspicion.)

[Zhade]

131. Veganism, as much as I feel it to be unnecessary for humans, is not to blame.

Nor are all vegans killers, of course.

[slowry]

134. Thank you for understanding this isn't about Veganism.

As for Veganism being unnecessary, that's true to some extent. It does have the potential, though, to be far less destructive to our planet, than the alternative. Also, there's a moral argument for it; it's unnecessary for us to punch cats in the face, for example, but most of us (I fucking hope...) don't do things like that.

Some of the fearful comments (not yours) about Veganism being goofy or "unnatural" trouble me. We do plenty of unnatural things, for better or worse: drive cars, harness electricity, fight violent urges, and so on.

Veganism isn't as difficult, unpleasant, or zomgdangerous as some posters think.

[blitzen]

133. A rascist sentence? The parents are black...

somehow I don't think this same sentence would have been given to a white couple from suburbia.

[BurtWorm]

135. That is my suspicion as well.

Life sentences for a horrible, horrible mistake that these parents are already suffering from is cruel and unusual punishment.