A few years ago, a couple of colleagues of mine were denied service at a diner..

[HipChick]

We were all on a biz trip down south..we all decided to go out for dinner, and while driving around, spotted this quaint eatery. It seemed like it took forever for anyone to come over to us to get a table, and in the end we just found a couple of tables ourselves and seated ourselves..after another long wait, a waitress finally showed up to start taking our orders. When she got to an indian colleague that was with us, and another black person, she jammed her thumb in the air at them, and said loudly "We don't serve them kind in here" and abruptly walked off. We were all disgusted, and in silent unison got up and all left.
I can't hardly believe in May 2010, we are still debating the issue of Segregation...for in some people's mind,it never went away,try and intellectualize it all you want..but when I see Rand Paul spewing this crap...I call it what it is Racism..and it doesn't have to be wrapped the white hood and sheets..often its right there in front of you..exposed in word and deed..

[donco6]

1. Evidently, there are quite a few people here who think this is fine.

I'm a little flabbergasted at it, but there it is.

[havocmom]

8. MAny DO NOT think it's fine, but recognize that, by law, private business can deny service to anyone

Now, when you are talking businesses that do any business with government, or receive government funds, different story. Except for churches which bush decided COULD get federal $$ for social programs AND still discriminate based on religious affiliation.

What is right or wrong often does not have anything to do with what is legal or illegal. Sometimes, in our passion for what is right and just, we loose site of that nuance.

[donco6]

9. So, you believe it's OK to kick blacks out of restaurants?

That's really sad.

[havocmom]

14. Did you read what I wrote? It is not what is right or just, it is what is legal

And no, I don't approve, but as stated downthread, if I had a business, I would be glad for the right to refuse service to people who came in and behaved in a manner of which I do not personally approve, or which I think might damage the business.

You are confusing personal opinion, projecting what you THINK I believe with what is legal. Frankly there is a very long list of things with which I passionately disagree but cannot stop BECAUSE IT IS LEGAL. Instead of whining, we work to change the laws we find unjust.

That is how the Civil Rights Movement worked. People worked to change laws and enforce the changes. BUT, PRIVATE property/businesses have some rights too, whether we like them or not. We make the choice: support businesses that discriminate or don't support them and get the word out so others can boycott too.

I have worked to change bad laws and boycott where laws can't go.

Making assumptions about the beliefs of those who point out the realities is a dangerous practice. It does nothing to change realities and might just alienate natural allies in the effort TO change realities.

Peach, and understanding

hm

[donco6]

18. Interesting.

So, in the big scheme of things, because of my minority status, the chances of my behavior offending others (maybe being too swishy? Lispy? Rainbow flag on the car too big?) is much greater than the typical middle-aged white teabagger. So to ensure the "equal" right of private business to discriminate, minorities have to suck it up or "get the law changed."

Great.

But I'll try not to whine about it.

[havocmom]

31. Whining is related to what is and isn't reality of law. We change that which is wrong

There are always voices on the right that insist this or that, but which often do not have a lot to do with realities of various laws and ordinances.

We work to change what is unjust. Or some of us have/do. But first one must really see what is and isn't. Change what is bad and wrong. That is not whining. Lots of people have been doing it for years.

Now, that said, it IS constructive to be loud about pointing out what is wrong and needs changing. It is how change starts. I would like the names/addresses of businesses that discriminate so I can boycott. That is a very effective method of changing things.

Peace and understanding

hm

PS, as to minority status, one never knows who else online might be a member of a minority group, does one? Membership does not mean all will agree on methods.

[CreekDog]

72. You keep proving how little you know about what's legal...here's the law

Discrimination based on "race, color, religion, or national origin" in public establishments that had a connection to interstate commerce or that was supported by the state is prohibited. See 42 U.S.C. § 2000a. Public establishments include places of public accommodation (e.g., hotels, motels, trailer parks), restaurants, gas stations, bars, taverns, and places of entertainment in general. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and subsequent legislation also declared a strong legislative policy against discrimination in public schools and colleges which aided in desegregation."

http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/civil_rights

========================

[havocmom]

16. what is sad is jumping to conclusions without paying attention to the facts

peace and understanding

hm, who did a fair bit of marching in the 60s, 70s. 80s. 90s

[Cleobulus]

50. Speaking of not paying attention to the facts, you are wrong, its not legal. n/t

[CreekDog]

70. Havocmom thinks it's wrong but *legal* (which is also wrong LOL)

and now that a dozen of us have corrected Havocmom, that poster is completely silent.

[Dan]

28. actually, I don't believe this is true

You cannot deny service because of a person's race, culture, color, etc.; You can deny service based on how they act, how they might be dressed... my thoughts.

[JVS]

34. Actually, they can't do that according to the law. And that's why the 1964 civil rights act is...

both good and necessary.

[Confusious]

47. No shirt, no shoes, no service.

As long as it applies equally.

[JVS]

59. not the same

[Confusious]

84. No, not really

But businesses always have a disclaimer "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" though it wouldn't cover racism.

But I also doubt someone is going to sue some shitty diner. It would be worth it in a moral sense, but an economic sense it wouldn't.

[TommyO]

54. No havocmom, places of public accommodation are subject to laws

that prevent them from denying service to people of color.

This was wrong, and illegal discrimination.

[CreekDog]

68. The Civil Rights Act makes this illegal...it most certainly does apply to private businesses

like restaurants and so forth.

why do people here think this? with all the talk lately about the Civil Rights Act and here you are commenting on it and clearly don't understand it at all.

:(

[krabigirl]

32. Nope.

[Generic Other]

2. Happened to people I know driving through Idaho

Makes ya proud to be an American all right.

[Vickers]

3. What town was this? What was the name of the business?

:shrug:

Let's get these racist fucks out in the open.

[notadmblnd]

4. I agree. Name them.

[alphafemale]

17. Or maybe it didn't actually happen.

That story doesn't sound plausible to me.

The entire table being ignored..yes. I could maybe see that happening

But, the story, as told...sounds embellished at best.

[a la izquierda]

39. there's one in every thread...

why is this implausible to you? i wouldn't doubt it for a second, and i don't live in the deep south- i live in Oklahoma. there are plenty of places here where it could conceivably happen.

[alphafemale]

43. You don't live in the South. I do. The story sounds like made up hokum.

If the writer had said no waitress ever came to the table I'd have believed that. Given the lead in, that no one showed them to a table, that would be a plausible end to the tale.

Morphing a waitress with John McCain...not so much.

[a la izquierda]

48. Nope I don't live in THE south. Thank god for that...

as I've seen what living in Mississippi has done to my once-sane, now lunatic fringe sister-in-law.
I live in Oklahoma, as you either failed to pay attention to, or willfully ignored. We know racism, sexism, homophobia in Oklahoma too. You don't have a monopoly on it. Racist shits exist everywhere, um, so you're pretty well displaying what all you Southern folk (and us Okies and Texans) get all pissy about-regionalism. This could happen in the South, because it could happen in Oklahoma, Texas, or hell, NJ (where I grew up).
So, keep on calling the OP a liar. It's cool. I'm sure you know what goes on everywhere in the South.:eyes:

[Jamastiene]

45. You obviously haven't been paying attention.

If there is one thing I know, it is the south. Yes, I could see that happening. You wouldn't believe the things that go on down here, but that doesn't change the fact that these things do happen.

[alphafemale]

46. I still call Billshit on the story.

I live in the South. I can imagine...maybe...a waitress ignoring a mixed race table.

In one of those oddball white enclaves that exist here and there in the South...Forsthy Co. GA as an example.

But, taking the orders from the whites and dismissing the others?

There is no way in hell that happened.

If it did I again call on the OP to name the town and restaurant.

That's not going to happen either.

[Kalyke]

66. I agree... a bunch of B-fucking-S.

No name of said town or state.

Activity that sounds like it belongs in a 1940s "Tobacco Road"-type movie, complete with the obligatory "We don't serve them kind," thrown in for good measure.

[alphafemale]

79. Exactly. A bunch of generalistic crap.

There is just no damn way that happened.

That the OP has not come back with specifics pretty much proves it

[Codeine]

69. I'd argue that it's even less likely in the South

than anywhere else, simply because this shit was dealt with down there while being a bit glossed over elsewhere.

[TroglodyteScholar]

80. I got the same feeling as you when I read the OP...

My background: Born in Alabama. Close family in Mississippi. Lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, and Georgia. Witnessed plenty of discrimination, but nothing as...ummm...stereotypical as described in the OP.

I, too, call BS.

[hlthe2b]

5. Sadly, I don't doubt that these kind of incidents continue, but

you need tobe specific with such accusations. Name the restaurant and the city, state. Otherwise, it allows deniers to question your credibility.

[havocmom]

10. Such info would be helpful to those who understand the right to refuse service

but would like to refuse to support such businesses.

[Raineyb]

29. There is no right to refuse service based on race.

What part of that are you having trouble understanding?

[BrklynLiberal]

6. Is there any point to filing a formal complaint to Federal authorities?

[havocmom]

11. Public v private

if the business does business with government, then file complaints. If it is a private business that does not work with government money, good luck. I doubt that it would get one any satisifaction.

If I had a diner and a bunch of loud, obnoxious teabaggers wanted service, I would have the right to tell them to get out of my private business, so long as I did not have any government contracts. I believe that to be the case in most states re private businesses.

[donco6]

12. And so I have to risk being refused service at a gas station in the middle of KS?

Really? That's a good thing?

[havocmom]

15. Please be honest and read/comprehend what I wrote

peace, and understanding

hm

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. Hey just call me

And I'm there with picket signs, an angry mob and gas for your car.

That's what friends are for :hug:

[donco6]

20. Ha! I knew you'd be there.

Likewise for you in Colorado. And I have a lot of friends, too. You don't know what a crowd in heels and boas can do for attention.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

25. Actually, it IS illegal for a restaurant to refuse service on the basis of race

whether or not it does business with the federal government, as long as it "affects" interstate commerce. It's the "public accommodation" part of the Civil Rights act: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/usc_sec_42_00012181----000-.html And, as the Heart of Atlanta v. U.S. case held (upholding the public accommodation rule), almost any business on a public road where out-of-state travelers may be served is considered to affect interstate commerce. That's been settled law since the '60s. Many states also have their own public accommodation laws, and in those states there isn't even the threshold issue of whether a business affects interstate commerce.

So I don't know why anybody thinks it's legal for a business to discriminate as long as it doesn't receive federal money, because it isn't and hasn't been for 45 years.

[donco6]

27. Thanks - good info.

Though it doesn't protect me specifically, I think it sets a general tone that it's not OK to banish people for things they cannot control.

[havocmom]

30. Perhaps in some states, I know AZ businesses can, but I think it has to be posted

'We maintain the right to refuse service to anyone' signs, while not real common, were around.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

35. They can post any sign they want, but it's still illegal. Federal law prevails.

And it's also illegal under Arizona state law, too: http://law.justia.com/arizona/codes/title41/01442.html

[alcibiades_mystery]

53. You're just absolutely wrong on this

Business can refuse service for behavior, but not for other factors. They cannot refuse service to "anyone" for any reason whatsoever. Refusing service on the basis of race is a violation of the Civil Rights Act, which is standing federal law. Full stop. You're absolutely 100% wrong on the law.

[TommyO]

55. Those signs are unenforceable when it comes to federal discrimination laws

and state public accommodation laws. Why do you continue to defend this clear, and illegal, racism?

[olegramps]

61. Doesn't matter what the hell they post. Its against the law.

[CreekDog]

73. my goodness, you think a sign trumps the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

no point in arguing with you.

[havocmom]

81. Never read the Act, and basing on observations from travel in several states

I stand corrected on the law. Thank you. With all I have seen, and it includes judges in cafes where such signs were posted, it seemed private businessmen/women could refuse service to anyone who they did not want to serve. True, not based on race. But businesses seem quite able, in many states I have directly observed in 50 years, to tell potential patrons to leave. Circle K stores near schools seem to do it to groups of kids over a certain number. I have seen biker club members escorted out of department stores, diners, even a movie theater.

Lots of places remove patrons, but not for racial reasons. Years in retail taught me some people could be refused, and/or removed, based upon past incidents with specific patrons. It was always based on behavior, not race, but businesses seemed not to have any trouble doing it, often with help of hired security or local law enforcement. One might get the impression that it was legally allowed, since it was so common and visible.

Thanks to all who pointed out the law. One wonders about all the judges and cops frequenting coffee shops with signs about right of refusal to serve anyone. Is it OK so long as they don't tend toward particular ethnic groups and just to individual cases? I would really like to know, because there are a lot of those signs still around.

[CreekDog]

83. Thanks for responding

:hi:

[Codeine]

85. We kick people out of my store all the time.

We just can't do it based on race, unless Asshole is a race. :evilgrin:

[truedelphi]

33. Thank you for reciting the chapter and verse. I know that Denny's has had a miserable record

And been sued several times over for its failure to comply with civil rights measures.

The complainants get rather hefty settlements, but of course, it takes time and energy and legal representation to pursue such.

[BrklynLiberal]

38. That is what I thought I heard during all the Rand Paul discussion about his opinion of the Civil

Rights Act

[Gaedel]

36. As I recall....

From the dim dark days of the civil rights movement in the case involving Lester Maddox's restaurant, the fact that some or all of the food served in the restaurant moved in interstate commerce, all restaurants which serve the public are subject to the public accommodations provisions of the law.

I do agree that the story sounds just too much to be true.

[K8-EEE]

41. "Behavior" is not "race"

Yes you could demand certain dress or behavior ("no shoes no shirt no service") but it would have to apply to everyone. No loud obnoxious behavior, black or white. You can't just hang up a "NO BLACKS SERVED" sign. A public restaurant cannot actually do that, nor should they be able to.

[olegramps]

60. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Covered in 64 Rights Bill.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. I have a friend who is disabled

And he was refused service in a restaurant once because they had no ramp or handicapped entrance.

So he filed a complaint and next time I drive by that restaurant I noticed there was a ramp.

Sometimes federal mandates are good things.

[Igel]

40. I was in an organization that had to

find "accommodation" with the ADA. It wasn't pretty.

Our offices were mostly vertical--a small suite on the third floor, a room on the fourth floor, and another chunk of space on the fifth floor. The fifth-floor space was choice real estate--a large space, subdivided, with very few buildings having any floor as high. It had an unparallelled view on three sides, one facing the Pacific, the other downtown LA, the third looking towards the mountains.

The fifth floor is where we housed a couple of fairly independent "officers"--their roles were subject to faint supervision, at best, they had quirky hours with really intensive work stretches and then nothing for a month or two. It suited them really well.

An elevator made it to the third and fourth floors. Not to the fifth. To make the elevator go to the fifth floor would mean taking half the available space on the fifth floor--it was built to look like a bell tower, I guess, back in 1920 or 1921. Even though nobody with disabilities needed to get to the fifth floor, even though there was room to accommodate anybody with disabilities on the 3rd floor should the need arise (whether interviewing or having them fill the top office in those suborganizations) the ADA said this wasn't good enough. We could use the top floor for storage. Ancillary stuff. But because changing the main office's location might be a factor militating against appointing somebody with a physical disability we had to move the main office. It didn't matter that a search of records showed that nobody with a disability had applied for the job for at least a decade beforehand. Some lobbyist was afraid that somebody might do something wrong and had to close the possible loophole. No matter whose neck was in the loop.

The new office was one desk in a large room with a number of desks, not three desks in a large room with just that function. We had partitions around the desk for privacy. No window. No natural light. And often noisy. Moreover, all their storage was still on the fifth floor, so they had to take two flights of stairs (or an elevator ride and one flight of stairs) whenever accessing the archives, tracking down old art work, or simply trying to find stuff that the three people couldn't fit into their desk or their filing cabinet.

Sometimes federal mandates are mindless, pointless things.

[TransitJohn]

13. I'm pretty sure that's against the law.

Didn't a Cracker Barrel or something pull that against some black FBI or Secret Service agents or something? And didn't that restaurant subsequently feel the heat?

[PopSixSquish]

78. I Think I Remember a Denny's in Baltimore Refusing to Serve Secret Service Agents

Here we go

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_n23_v27/ai_13879924/

"The plaintiffs, members of the Secret Service Uniformed Division, apparently had stopped at the restaurant for breakfast on April 1 -- ironically, the same day Denny's settled a separate bias case in California.

The agents were part of a group of 21 officers en route to the Naval Academy to screen people attending a speech given by President Clinton.

The suit charges that the agents, who were attired in their service uniforms, had not been served in a 45-to-55-minute time frame after placing their orders. Meanwhile, white secret-service agents who had arrived at the same time as the plaintiffs, had already finished second portions. The litigation also noted that white customers arriving after the agents also had been served."

And yes it is illegal to refuse service which is why the Justice Department goes after these types of cases...

[sharesunited]

21. The persons refused service could have OWNED that restaurant if they wanted to sue.

[donco6]

22. Not according to some people here.

They're arguing that this is A-OK as long as the business doesn't receive federal money.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

26. They are wrong. See my post above.

Any business that falls under the definition of "public accommodation" is prohibited from discriminating on the basis of race. And that's just about any restaurant, hotel, etc., that serves or might serve people from another state (affecting interstate commerce). That's been the law now since the Heart of Atlanta Motel case was decided in 1964.

[CreekDog]

75. why is why nobody should listen to them: they don't KNOW ANYTHING

if i argued that the sky was green all day, what should you do?

not listen. what's the point in listening to willful ignorance?

[treestar]

23. Was this place way out in a rural area?

What a crazy waitress! I wonder if the owner told her that or she just thought it.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

24. And you tolerated this?

I know I wouldn't have. I would have raised so much stink we'd have been on CNN before the sun set that day.

Where was this and how long ago did this take place?

[malaise]

37. Unbelievable isn't it

This is one sick planet

[Dreamer Tatum]

42. I don't think this actually happened.

I think something this outrageous would have imprinted dates, places, and names in your memory.

[Quantess]

44. Unrecommended.

This is too vague to be fully believable. It might have happened, but, this story doesn't deserve this many recs.

[Codeine]

49. Oh please.

"We don't serve them kind in here." How much more cartoonish could you have made this ridiculous tale? Maybe a fat Southern sheriff saying "You're not from around here, are ya?" :eyes:

[QC]

51. Well, she did leave out the mutant playing the banjo out front.

And nobody fell into the hogwaller and got ate.

Give her a little credit.

[Codeine]

52. We can just go ahead and close this thread,

because NOBODY is going to say anything funnier than "hogwaller". :rofl:

:yourock:

[QC]

56. Thank you! n/t

[alphafemale]

76. It's all about the sauce.

lol

[pintobean]

57. I believe you

because I've seen it, too. Quincy, Il. in the late 90's. One of my co-workers looked Latino. He wasn't; he had a little Native American and a little Italian blood in him. We went into a bar in the town square at around 9pm for some dinner and beer. After about 15 minutes of nothing but dirty looks, I walked up to the bar to ask the barmaid what the problem was. "We don't serve your kind" was her answer. What kind is that? River rats. I explained that we were construction workers from St. Louis doing repairs at a nearby factory. "What about the Mexican?" I explained that he was part Italian and she was satisfied. Since we didn't know of another place to eat, we ate quickly and left.
I wouldn't have expected something like that in northern Illinois.

Edit: recommended to cancel the unrec above.

[WCIL]

77. I live here, and it is absolutely true

the bigots here decide they don't want to serve "river rats" or they enforce a dress code clearly aimed at men of color, so they can claim they are not racists. It's despicable.

[jcboon]

58. This used to happen all the time--what's so hard to believe?

As few as fifteen years ago I had similar incidents with friends in restaurants in Virginia.
One time I was in Williamsburg with a mixed race couple and we had a reservation at a restaurant. We stood and watched at least twenty other parties get seated before us. We pointed out that we had reservations and were still ignored. Eventually, our African-American friend went up to the hostess and told her that if we weren't seated immediately there would be an ugly scene. We were seated.
I worked in a restaurant with a waitress who used the same language as in the original post in a similar situation.I gave her hell for it and she tried to beat me up in the ladies room.
I lived in the area when this happened in 1984:
A news team from D.C. actually busted a restaurant in Marshall, VA for refusing service to an African-American camera man.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2211&dat=19841208&id=0CImAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Xf4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3898,2205634
.

[alphafemale]

64. An entire table being ignored I could possibly believe. The story as told...ummm. Not so much.

There is no waitress on the face of the earth that with the cahoneys do that. Just no fkn way.

That the OP has not bothered to come back and give a place this occurred pretty much shows this is a bag of hooey falooey.

[pintobean]

67. How did you find the time

to get to know every waitress on the face of the earth? That's impressive.

[Union Yes]

62. K&R for more exposure. People need to see this. nt

[slackmaster]

63. Cool story. Was this in the south of England, or in the USA?

:shrug:

More specific information about the locale and when it happened would be interesting IMO.

A Jewish friend of my mom had a set of slides that she and her husband had taken while on a road trip through the US states of Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi. One diner in rural Georgia had crude hand-painted sign that read "We do not serve dogs or Jews". That was in the early 1960s.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

65. I was Lucky Enough to Work with Samuel Williams

a pioneering Black state legislator in Colorado and a founder of 100 Black Men of Denver. He LOVED to play golf and once told me a funny story about going to a CO course with a group of three friends. When they arrived at the clubhouse, the attendant took a step back and shook his head regretfully.

"I'm sorry sir but I can't let you play," he told Col. Williams.

Sam looked around at his three friends: the entire groups was Black.

"I thought this course didn't discriminate against African-Americans," Sam responded.

The young man shook his head again. "It's not that, sir." He pointed a finger at the last member of the foursome. "She's female, sir. There are no women allowed on this golf course."

Sam loved that story. I miss him.

[HipChick]

71. The "It never happen because I didn't see it myself" mentality

is almost as bad as saying the US is post-racial because a black president was elected. Up until a few years ago, profiling was said to be a product of imagination amongst black people...people are fooling themselves if they think incidents like this do not go on, subtlety or not...and I suspect the answers from non-whites as opposed to people of color are very different.

[PfcHammer]

74. LoL. Every response from it never happened to it happens everywhere.

Free speech and thought ftw.

[L0oniX]

82. I deny service to repukes. n/t