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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:28 AM
Original message
Leaked report: Government fears Deepwater Horizon well could become unchecked gusher
Edited on Sun May-02-10 10:12 AM by flyarm
Leaked report: Government fears Deepwater Horizon well could become unchecked gusher

By Ben Raines
April 30, 2010, 2:18PM

http://blog.al.com/live/2010/04/deepwater_horizon_secret_memo.html


'The following is not public' document states

View full size(AP Photo/U.S. Coast Guard)This image provided by the U.S. Coast Guard Saturday April 24, 2010, shows oil leaking from the drill pipe of the Deepwater Horizon drilling rig after it sank. A confidential government report on the unfolding spill disaster makes clear the Coast Guard now fears the well could be on the verge of becoming an unchecked gusher shooting millions of gallons of oil per day into the Gulf. A confidential government report on the unfolding spill disaster in the Gulf makes clear the Coast Guard now fears the well could become an unchecked gusher shooting millions of gallons of oil per day into the Gulf.

"The following is not public," reads the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Emergency Response document dated April 28. "Two additional release points were found today in the tangled riser. If the riser pipe deteriorates further, the flow could become unchecked resulting in a release volume an order of magnitude higher than previously thought."

Asked Friday to comment on the document, NOAA spokesman Scott Smullen said that the additional leaks described were reported to the public late Wednesday night. Regarding the possibility of the spill becoming an order of magnitude larger, Smullen said, "I'm letting the document you have speak for itself."

In scientific circles, an order of magnitude means something is 10 times larger. In this case, an order of magnitude higher would mean the volume of oil coming from the well could be 10 times higher than the 5,000 barrels a day coming out now. That would mean 50,000 barrels a day, or 2.1 million gallons a day. It appears the new leaks mentioned in the Wednesday release are the leaks reported to the public late Wednesday night.

"There is no official change in the volume released but the USCG is no longer stating that the release rate is 1,000 barrels a day," continues the document, referred to as report No. 12. "Instead they are saying that they are preparing for a worst-case release and bringing all assets to bear."

The emergency document also states that the spill has grown in size so quickly that only 1 to 2 percent of it has been sprayed with dispersants.

The Press-Register obtained the emergency report from a government official. The White House, NOAA, the Coast Guard and BP Plc did not immediately return calls for comment made early this morning.

The worst-case scenario for the broken and leaking well pouring oil into the Gulf of Mexico would be the loss of the wellhead and kinked piping currently restricting the flow to 5,000 barrels -- or 210,000 gallons -- per day.




xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


http://blog.al.com/live/2010/05/video_shows_federal_officials.html

A National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration video, shot as officials coordinated response to the Deepwater Horizon disaster, shows that federal officials almost immediately worried that the oil well could leak up to 110,000 barrels per day, or 4.6 million gallons.

The video appears on a federal Web site.

It was filmed in Seattle, at NOAA's Western Regional Center, as scientists and federal officials in Seattle, Houston and New Orleans engaged in telephone conferences, according to a companion document on the Web site.

snip:

A confidential NOAA report, dated April 28 and circulated among federal agencies, makes similar projections regarding spill size in a worst-case situation.

View full size(NOAA video still)A hand-drawn map of the Gulf of Mexico oil spill dated April 22, 2010, is seen in this image from a video downloaded from the NOAA Web site. The video shows federal officials discussing the oil spill soon after the Deepwater Horizon exploded.

It describes newly discovered leaks in the tangle of riser pipe, attributing them to ongoing erosion of the pipe. The riser pipe, in this case about 5,000 feet long, connects the wellhead on the sea floor to the drilling rig on the surface.

"If the riser pipe deteriorates further, the flow could become unchecked," reads the report.

On Thursday, the day after the NOAA report was circulated, BP officials said they were worried about "erosion" of the piping.

Sand is an integral part of the formations that hold oil under the Gulf. The raw crude rising from the bottom of a well carries sand and other abrasive materials. In effect, the oil is sandblasting the piping as it rushes through with tremendous force, according to petroleum engineers.

"I think we need to be prepared for it to be the spill of the decade," Debbie Payton of NOAA, the meeting's coordinator, says during the NOAA video.


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Coyote_Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. The real question
is why the dumbshits didn't anticipate this possibility BEFORE it fucking happened.

Now that the worst has happened it does not reflect well on the folks directly responsible.

But it also reflects poorly on those who were advocating and defending offshore drilling.
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
57. hmmmm economy... ecology.... sort of makes those toothless teabirthers issues the pimple on a gnat
BEEN PRETTY CLEAR FOR A LONG TIME.... HOPE WE CAN COUNT ON ALL THE SOCCER MOMS TO LINE UP ALONG THE BEACH WITH THEIR HUMMERS AND BLOCK THE FLOW OF OIL
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. Spill of the decade is an understatement
Largest spill in human history is more likely.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Its not a spill, its a gusher. Spill is like a barge took a hit and is leaking contents.
This thing is gushing like some idiot was digging for a well in TX and ended up hitting a pocket of "black gold"... No, this is not spill.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
42. It's a 'slick'. The CEO of BP told me only the yesterday. 'Cep you can't see the kind
Edited on Sun May-02-10 02:05 PM by Joe Chi Minh
of pretty rainbow colours.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. no kidding
:grr:
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
3. And another consideration mentioned by an astute DUer,
an underwater collapse of area being depleted of oil at the rate it's spewing due to water pressure and void not being filled with anything really. Oily tsunami full of dead stuff.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. Does the navy have an deep water dive vessels equipped to contain
something like this.. I would think they would have some neat-o play toys. It feels like they are just standing around wringing their hands with worry and pointing fingers.. Its not fixing the problem. Honestly, the valdez mess is still not cleaned. I can't imagine what will happen to the marshlands as this oil heads into them.. I have a degree in Marine Science/ Environmental Science.. and I can tell you this is really, really, really bad. This is the scenario that we try to talk about happening as a "if this were to happen...". Its like one of those disaster movies. This is a long term ecological disaster and its still pumping. No shut off. Honestly, I'm not sure that there will be much reason to live on the Gulf Coast after this disaster... Imagine what happens when it hits the coral reefs near Key West? Its going to take so many years to try to restore the Gulf.. Its disgusting.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. It's going to destroy the shrimp and oyster industry

Fishing has already been stopped near Louisiana. This is going to start dominoeing as restaurants will not have shrimp and oysters on the menu, and less food for us to eat.
This is really really bad.

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. and on our local news Friday night ..the Grouper a main food staple in Fla will be destroyed.
The Fishermen on our local TV said the Grouper swim 600 ft down in the gulf.."the first place the oil will settle"

It could seriously hurt our Manatee..and Turtles which just start laying their eggs in May!
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. disaster for all animal wildlife

migrating birds too
:(

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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. I was just going to mention the grouper... which is a big deal in FL.
Along with shrimping and other fish populations. There is definite fear among the fishing captains and local businesses that sell fresh, local fish on a daily basis. Even crab is going to be effected as it hits shorelines... Then think about the wetlands, marshes, and mangroves.... Natural buffers for storms and beach erosion and cleaning out toxins... I don't know whether to scream, cry, or break something... Its so emotional to think about oil oozing into and destroying this ecosystem. And the then the devastation it will have on everything from tourism, to fishing, to South East economical conditions (which are already very bad).
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. ...and as the RWers are fond of saying:
"What could possibly happen?"

:sarcasm: of course...
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Has anyone said "it was never anticipated?" Like Wall street or 9/11?
Because warnings like this have come since the day the decided to put in the first off shore well.. AND the deeper you go, the less ability they have to manage it.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. You are absolutely correct!! Thank you! eom
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
40. Of course they've been saying that.
The context - this is nothing like Katrina, because Bush saw that coming. (The implication being that nobody in power could have possibly predicted this.)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
59. And we're still going to drill in Artic!!
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. ahhh excuse me..but.......but but ...we in Fla were screaming about Obama opening up oil drilling
Edited on Sun May-02-10 09:54 AM by flyarm
here in Fla only to be screamed down by the "blind..obedient"...here at DU and other Dem web sites!...any idiot would know these rigs are not safe..and it is documented in My state of Fla legislative reports it is not safe..enviornmentalists screamed it is not safe..University Professors who deal with this screamed it is not safe..we had laws in place fought for, by the way, by democrats and democratic activists..that Obama threw to the wind..and opened up off shore drilling off our coastlines!! Millions of coastal miles he opened up!

No repuke could have gotten all the wells we have now without help from Dems in Congress..because the people of many states worked hard to put laws in place in their states to stop this..and yet Obama did what no repig has been able to do because of Hard work of dems throughout the country!..and that was to open up precious coastal waters to drilling..millions of miles of coastal waters!

Was Obama responsible for this ..no..hell no..but many of our dems in congress and the senate damn sure are!

Obama: “Oil Rigs Today Generally Don’t Cause Spills”

Obama Repeats Katrina Oil Spill Myth To Defend Offshore Drilling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm8gLmuTvJ4&feature=play ...


By: David Dayen Thursday April 29, 2010 1:42 pm

snip:

What a difference 18 days makes. Here was Barack Obama, on April 2, before the BP oil rig disaster in the Gulf of Mexico, claiming that oil rigs are safe to justify his position on offshore drilling:

I don’t agree with the notion that we shouldn’t do anything. It turns out, by the way, that oil rigs today generally don’t cause spills. They are technologically very advanced. Even during Katrina, the spills didn’t come from the oil rigs, they came from the refineries onshore.

Not only does this quote look ridiculous in hindsight, it wasn’t true at the time, as Brad Johnson points out:

Obama’s claim that oil rigs did not cause any spills during Hurricane Katrina is simply false, as the Wonk Room reported in June, 2008, when Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) and other conservatives made the same false claim:

Hurricanes Katrina and Rita Caused 124 Offshore Spills For A Total Of 743,700 Gallons. 554,400 gallons were crude oil and condensate from platforms, rigs and pipelines, and 189,000 gallons were refined products from platforms and rigs.

Hurricanes Katrina and Rita Caused Six Offshore Spills Of 42,000 Gallons Or Greater. The largest of these was 152,250 gallons, well over the 100,000 gallon threshhold considered a “major spill.”


http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/04/29/obama-oil-rigs-t ... ’t-cause-spills/


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


YouTube - Barack Obama on Offshore Oil Drilling ( to Florida voters while asking for their votes)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8fkbEuCQss&NR=1
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
53. Axelrod stated, in response to a question yesterday, that they
would not allow any more drilling 'until the cause of this spill can be determined'. He was answering a question about whether or not they would rethink lifting the ban on Offshore drilling.

If I believed in Divine Intervention, which most of the 'drill baby drill' crowd does, I would be hoping this wasn't a message about greed and deception and arrogance.

Absent a God, I saw a comment on another site which said 'It's like the Earth is saying, okay you wanted oil badly, well here it is'. Earth will survive, but maybe without life as we know it if people continue to put money before principles.

I think when people look back on this presidency, this decision was probably one of the worst. I'd like to hear from the DUers who were defending it so passionately, just a week ago.

These loyal supporters of presidents who will excuse anything their guy does, are a big part of the problem and are not doing their heroes any favors.

If, instead of listening to the 'political experts' like Rahm and Axelrod Obama had listened to the people who elected him, he would have had a huge amount of political capital right now to spend on Environmental issues.

As it stands, I've already seen rightwingnuts when people ask 'where are th Drill, Baby, Drill crowed, answer on cue ~ 'Well one of them is in the White House'.

It makes me so mad to think that we can't even place the blame where it really belonged all along. He needs to start firing some of those 'advisers'.
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Change Happens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
12. Sec. Salazar pretty much admitted this on MTP today...nt
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. CNN: Salazar calls oil spill a potential catastrophe

5/2/10
Interior Secretary Ken Salazar on Sunday said the Gulf of Mexico oil spill from a destroyed rig "potentially is catastrophic."

Salazar told CNN's "State of the Union" program, "I think we have to prepare for the worst."

He said later in the program that "It is indeed a massive oil spill."

more, and some pictures
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/02/louisiana.oil.spill/index.html?hpt=C1


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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
32. Salazar, it's a BLOWOUT, not a spill
Get it right, Mr. Interior Secretary.

And we voted for this idjit here in Colorado?
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Massive Blowout

I think of this blowout as an underwater volcano spewing oil.


A spill implies a finite amount, this blowout is anything but finite.


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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
31. This is why I didn't vote for Salazar when he ran for the US Senate of Colorado
I knew he was bought and paid for by corporations.

I voted for Mike Miles in the primaries and still would have supported him today.

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
15. I am going to repeat what i posted on another thread..
because I mean it..


Take a good look in the mirror..because you helped this happen! We all did !


Me too!

Oh how can I say that?

Well because we keep electing the same people and basically give them lifetime jobs in our Senate and Congress..everyone else's congressman/woman is the bad Guy..Everyone else's senator is the bad guy..didn't you know that???

We, yes you and me, have helped make these people "STARS".

When the other side does bad stuff they are the bad guy..but when ours do it..we put aside our principles and values and we suck it up...or some try intimidation to shut others up into silence..we all saw that done right here at DU when many of us on the Gulf Coasts and the Atlantic Ocean and the millions of miles of coastlines Obama opened up to drilling..we were berated and bitch slapped by many here at DU when those of us with backyards on the coast lines were so upset and so demoralized when Obama ..a Dem president ..a Democratic President ..went against his campaign promises ..and announced to the world he was going to allow Drilling on millions of miles of USA coastlines..

We look the other way when ours grabs power he isn't entitled to under our constitution..if the other side does it..it is bad..when ours does it..wellllll is just A-OK..and we keep voting the bastards into office..because our side is so damn good ..don't you know!!

The sooner people in this country realize..these were never meant to be lifetime jobs..In our Senate and Congress..and that there are not really two parties...that is mere illusion...but one party of elites with one big giant fucking money pot in the middle..that is when we will take our nation back for we the people.

Don;t keep pointing the finger at" the other ones"..look into your mirror ..start looking into what is really going on..not just what you want to believe is going on..stop with the damn catch phrases..."change and hope" don't mean a damn thing when nothing is changing and more and more of your family and friends and neighbors are losing hope each and every day.

Democrats for decades have been fighting these drilling rigs in our waterways..but When Obama opened up drilling.. dems just laid down and died..Unless you were actively fighting it..YOU are part of the problem.our congress people and senators are the problem..My dem senator has been against drilling and vocal about it ..because his constituency is..but what did he do when Obama announced opening up 2/3rd of both sides of our state in Fla to drilling..he went right along..well that fucker will never see another dime of my money and not another of my votes.,,not another day of my footwork ..and not another call will I make for that bastard!...and I will put money into seeing him replaced!
And every dem that went along I will work my ass off to see them replaced..and removed from office.

Remember much of this drilling could not have been done without votes and help from Dems..

All of these bastards have gotten their pockets greased..you know it and I know it..none of them are innocent.and yet they get a free ride from many here because they are "DEMOCRATS"

Don't let others intimidate you..you are here on DU..You know the truth.,live by it! Either ignore the assholes or tell them the fuck off! But don't let others intimidate you into silence!

This is one earth we have..they don't give a rats ass about it..because money is their driving drug..and Power.

The constitution belongs to you..it is a fragile idea..you either grasp it with all your might ..or " you " won't be the victim..the future generations will be the victims...and history will hold you accountable.

Stop looking for an escape goat..and step up to the damn plate.


And hold ours accountable ..while you are passing blame ..and stop with the " Blind Obedience "..because when you are blind ..we are all your victims!..You are the owner of this country..you are the employer of our President and our congress and senators..start acting like the employers! And fire every one of them if they don't do their jobs, as directed by.. YOU.. the employer!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Obama: “Oil Rigs Today Generally Don’t Cause Spills”

Obama Repeats Katrina Oil Spill Myth To Defend Offshore Drilling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm8gLmuTvJ4&feature=play ...


By: David Dayen Thursday April 29, 2010 1:42 pm

snip:

What a difference 18 days makes. Here was Barack Obama, on April 2, before the BP oil rig disaster in the Gulf of Mexico, claiming that oil rigs are safe to justify his position on offshore drilling:

I don’t agree with the notion that we shouldn’t do anything. It turns out, by the way, that oil rigs today generally don’t cause spills. They are technologically very advanced. Even during Katrina, the spills didn’t come from the oil rigs, they came from the refineries onshore.

Not only does this quote look ridiculous in hindsight, it wasn’t true at the time, as Brad Johnson points out:

Obama’s claim that oil rigs did not cause any spills during Hurricane Katrina is simply false, as the Wonk Room reported in June, 2008, when Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) and other conservatives made the same false claim:

Hurricanes Katrina and Rita Caused 124 Offshore Spills For A Total Of 743,700 Gallons. 554,400 gallons were crude oil and condensate from platforms, rigs and pipelines, and 189,000 gallons were refined products from platforms and rigs.

Hurricanes Katrina and Rita Caused Six Offshore Spills Of 42,000 Gallons Or Greater. The largest of these was 152,250 gallons, well over the 100,000 gallon threshhold considered a “major spill.”

http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/04/29/obama-oil-rigs-t ... ’t-cause-spills/


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


YouTube - Barack Obama on Offshore Oil Drilling ( to Florida voters while asking for their votes)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8fkbEuCQss&NR=1

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

This is what was posted to or at me when i was screaming of what Obama was doing ..against all Dem principles and values I have held dear and fought for for my entire adult lifetime and against what all dems have fought against with drilling off our coastlines ..and what dem environmentalists have fought against..and those of us who have fought so hard to save our eco-system...

yes this was just a small dose of Du paid fuckers intimidation..they will never shut me up..in fact I will do my damnest to expose each and everyone of them for who and what they are! This poster was replying to my post the day Obama announced his approval od drilling off our coast lines and my reporting on what the Sierra club was saying here in Fla and what environ. professors were saying..

This was before the spill...

I won't name this poster..he will know who he is ..

I wonder how the spill is working for this person now????????? I know it is not working well for the waters in my back yard! Or the Marine life or our eco-system!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A du'er's post to me..

It's embarrassing how some environmental groups are so goddamn knee-jerky. Maybe they need more money... as one who gives to the Sierra Club on occasion and actually worked for Greenpeace for a stint, I know how it works.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Yes indeed. thanks
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Well
You can blame Dems all day long. You have that right.

But it has been the Dems who have stopped other drilling operations.

They didn't stop this one. They were promised this wouldn't happen. Not in the Gulf...!!!

Think about the messages of 9/11, anthrax, Patriot Act, multiple 'suicides', WMD, and all the rest of the Reagan and Bushco manipulations and the wars.

The Dems are up against the wall.

And here you are, tying their shoelaces together instead of helping them take off the handcuffs. Sad.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. I am not blaming Dem's ..I am blaming all of us..there is plenty of blame to go around..
Edited on Sun May-02-10 10:29 AM by flyarm
Like I said..look in the mirror..I have and what i see makes me sick..because I too helped ..by not doing everything i could ..to throw the bastards out that did this to our country!... In both parties...and this will effect our entire country..and our entire eco-system!

We all blame the other guy..while making excuses for our own!

No one did this or allowed this.. in a isolated bubble.

There were many pockets greased..on both sides of the isle!

You know it and I damn well know it..

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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Yes... and to that end, we haven't had people with the inclination to actually
move this country forward... Like building public transit so that it is usable. Making smarter electrical grids.. Insisting on energy saving devices and pursuing renewable wind and solar energy systems that could rid us of coal and oil.. Because the "black gold" is killing us. Climate change, melting snow caps, mining disasters killing people, and now oil gushing into the Gulf... a precious resource in its own right.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Heh
Dems spent a tremendous amount of political capital stopping the deregulation of the oil industry.

And again, here you blame all of us for a single company's willful disregard of the gamble involved.

We have been shouting that this would happen.

But it is so easy to point thy bitter little finger at all of us?

Go after the real enemy, please.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
54. Oh please...look at the names and dates of these leases for wells and look who is involved!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Obama Dropped Offshore Tax on Big Oil:
Mon May-03-10 12:32 AM
Obama’s Drill To Nowhere

"....Here’s why Obama’s political move to open up our coasts to more drilling is wrong.
1. Opening up offshore areas to drilling hurts efforts at a climate deal – not helps. On March 23, ten coastal state Senators wrote a letter to the ad hoc Senate climate crew of Kerry-Lieberman-Graham warning that they “cannot support legislation that will . . . put our coasts at greater peril”. They note the environmental concerns that offshore drilling presents, but also highlight the unfair proposal of allowing coastal states to keep a sizable portion of the royalties rather than share that revenue with all states and taxpayers. The letter was signed by Democratic Sens. Bill Nelson (Fla.), Robert Menendez (NJ), Sheldon Whitehouse (RI), Barbara Mikulski (Md), Ben Cardin (Md), Frank Lautenberg (NJ), Ted Kaufman (Del), Ron Wyden (Ore), Jeff Merkley (Ore) and Jack Reed (RI).

snip

......Opening up “access to the Pacific, Atlantic, and eastern Gulf regions would not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030“. The Energy Information Administration estimates that if the ban on drilling remains in place, that “the average U.S. price of motor gasoline price is 3 cents per gallon higher” than if we open these areas to drilling. That’s because the US isn’t Saudi Arabia: we sit on only 1.6% of the world’s oil reserves, while the Saudis have 20%. Dumping our little pond of oil into the giant sea of global reserves can’t make a significant dent on our imports or impact prices


......taxpayers on existing drilling leases is unfair. Now, we’ve written extensively about this over the years. Because of a bureaucratic oversight by the Department of Interior during the implementation of the Deep Water Royalty Relief Act of 1995, oil companies that secured leases in 1998 and 1999 were exempted from royalties, regardless of the prevailing market price of oil. Recent lawsuits have exposed more leases going back to 1996 to this same loophole. This stands in stark contrast to other, similar leases, which require the payment of royalties if the price of oil exceeds a certain threshold. The day the bill was signed in November 1995, West Texas Intermediate oil was trading at $18.28/barrel. With oil now trading at roughly $80/barrel, these companies have been and will be extracting very valuable energy from public land without paying any royalties to American taxpayers. The GAO estimates the loss to the US Treasury of more than $50 billion over the life of these royalty-free leases – a huge subsidy for Big Oil. And investigations have found serious problems in the management of the entire royalty program.

As recently as August 25, 2009 - when President Obama submitted his Mid-Session Review budget to Congress – he recognized this fleecing of the taxpayer by Big Oil and proposed a “Levy tax on certain offshore oil and gas production” as a back-door way to capture some revenue from these no-royalty leases, raising $6 billion over a decade.........But in Obama’s budget submitted in February, the Administration has now dropped this offshore tax on Big Oil (you can see the itemization of repealed oil & gas tax breaks on page 30 of 88 at the above link, with the new levy tax now gone)......Obama puts a lot at risk with this offshore drilling plan and gets little reward. What a disappointment.

http://publiccitizenenergy.org/2010/04/01/obamas-drill -... /




xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Spill, Baby, Spill
By Michael Isikoff, Ian Yarett and Matthew Philips | NEWSWEEK
From the magazine issue dated May 10, 2010

BP has been trying hard to burnish its public image in recent years after being hit with a pair of environmental disasters, including a fatal refinery explosion in Texas and a pipeline leak in Alaska. One major step was to announce, in 2007, that it had hired a high-powered advisory board that included former EPA director Christine Todd Whitman, former Senate majority leader Tom Daschle, and Leon Panetta, who were each paid $120,000 a year. (Panetta left when he became President Obama's CIA director.) Two years ago the oil giant's chief executive, Robert Malone, flew board members out to the Gulf of Mexico on a helicopter to demonstrate the safeguards surrounding BP's advanced drilling technology. "We got a sense they were really committed to ensuring they got it right," Whitman told NEWSWEEK.

Now BP, formerly known as British Petroleum, finds itself blamed for what could prove to be the worst oil spill in U.S. history. And only weeks after Obama announced an ambitious plan to open up more U.S. offshore waters to oil drilling, shunting aside environmental concerns from his own Democratic Party, his administration is facing a comeuppance from hell. "There was a lot of wishful thinking, I guess," says Villy Kourafalou, a scientist at the University of Miami's Rosensteil School of Marine and Atmospheric Science. "The new technologies were said to be so wonderful that we'd never have an oil spill again." Rep. Frank Pallone (D-N.J.), who had sought to block the expanded drilling, says the oil and gas industry was pushing this idea hard. "They said, 'We'll never have a repeat of Santa Barbara,'?" referring to the 1969 rig explosion off the California coast. Both the Bush and Obama administrations "were buying the line that the technology was fine," Pallone adds.

BP pressed hard to make that point in D.C. Its PR efforts included payments of $16 million last year to a battery of Washington lobbyists, among them the firm of Tony Podesta, the brother of former Obama transition chief John Podesta. Last fall, after the U.S. Interior Department proposed tighter federal regulation of oil companies' environmental programs, David Rainey, BP's vice president for Gulf of Mexico exploration, told Congress that the proposal was unnecessary. "I think we need to remember," he said, that offshore drilling "has been going on for the last 50 years, and it has been going on in a way that is both safe and protective of the environment."

Read the full article at:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/237298


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

BP Is Criticized Over Oil Spill, but U.S. Missed Chances to Act

snip

......The federal government also had opportunities to move more quickly, but did not do so while it waited for a resolution to the spreading spill from BP, which was leasing the drilling rig that exploded in flames on April 20 and sank two days later. Eleven workers are missing and presumed dead.

The Department of Homeland Security waited until Thursday to declare that the incident was “a spill of national significance,” and then set up a second command center in Mobile. The actions came only after the estimate of the size of the spill was increased fivefold to 5,000 barrels a day.

The delay meant that the Homeland Security Department waited until late this week to formally request a more robust response from the Department of Defense, with Ms. Napolitano acknowledging even as late as Thursday afternoon that she did not know if the Defense Department even had equipment that might be helpful.

By Friday afternoon, she said, the Defense Department had agreed to send two large military transport planes to spray chemicals that can disperse the oil while it is still in the Gulf.

Officials initially seemed to underestimate the threat of a leak, just as BP did last year when it told the government such an event was highly unlikely. Rear Adm. Mary E. Landry, the chief Coast Guard official in charge of the response, said on April 22, after the rig sank, that the oil that was on the surface appeared to be merely residual oil from the fire, though she said it was unclear what was going on underwater. The day after, officials said that it appeared the well’s blowout preventer had kicked in and that there did not seem to be any oil leaking from the well, though they cautioned it was not a guarantee.
BP officials, even after the oil leak was confirmed by using remote-controlled robots, expressed confidence that the leak was slow enough, and steps taken out in the Gulf of Mexico aggressive enough, that the oil would never reach the coast.
(The NOAA document on a potentially far larger leak, first obtained by The Press-Register in Mobile, Ala., was described by an agency spokesman as simply a possibility raised by a staff member, not an official prediction.)

Some oil industry critics questioned whether the federal government is too reliant on oil companies to manage the response to major spills, leaving the government unable to evaluate if the response is robust enough.

“Here you have the company that is responsible for the accident leading the response to the crisis,” said Tyson Slocum, director of Public Citizen’s Energy Program. “There is a problem here, and the consequence is clear.”

snip

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/01/us/01gulf.html?ref=sc ...



"But in Obama’s budget submitted in February, the Administration has now dropped this offshore tax on Big Oil (you can see the itemization of repealed oil & gas tax breaks on page 30 of 88 at the above link, with the new levy tax now gone)......Obama puts a lot at risk with this offshore drilling plan and gets little reward."

But perhaps hmmm campaign money?????????




xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Obama: “Oil Rigs Today Generally Don’t Cause Spills”

Obama Repeats Katrina Oil Spill Myth To Defend Offshore Drilling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm8gLmuTvJ4&feature=play ...


By: David Dayen Thursday April 29, 2010 1:42 pm

snip:

What a difference 18 days makes. Here was Barack Obama, on April 2, before the BP oil rig disaster in the Gulf of Mexico, claiming that oil rigs are safe to justify his position on offshore drilling:

I don’t agree with the notion that we shouldn’t do anything. It turns out, by the way, that oil rigs today generally don’t cause spills. They are technologically very advanced. Even during Katrina, the spills didn’t come from the oil rigs, they came from the refineries onshore.

Not only does this quote look ridiculous in hindsight, it wasn’t true at the time, as Brad Johnson points out:

Obama’s claim that oil rigs did not cause any spills during Hurricane Katrina is simply false, as the Wonk Room reported in June, 2008, when Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) and other conservatives made the same false claim:

Hurricanes Katrina and Rita Caused 124 Offshore Spills For A Total Of 743,700 Gallons. 554,400 gallons were crude oil and condensate from platforms, rigs and pipelines, and 189,000 gallons were refined products from platforms and rigs.

Hurricanes Katrina and Rita Caused Six Offshore Spills Of 42,000 Gallons Or Greater. The largest of these was 152,250 gallons, well over the 100,000 gallon threshhold considered a “major spill.”

http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/04/29/obama-oil-rigs-t ... ’t-cause-spills/


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


YouTube - Barack Obama on Offshore Oil Drilling ( to Florida voters while asking for their votes)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8fkbEuCQss&NR=1
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
45. Totally agree with you! And I'm totally disgusted that so many around here rush to protect dems
in Congress and Obama for sucking up to big oil and all the rest of the corporate mo fos who are destroying this country.

You only have to look at the threads about this oil disaster to see who really gives a damn about about our precious oceans and mother earth.

Meanwhile the other rah rah pom pom wavers around here are no doubt working overtime to unrec this thread and others like it because it makes their hero look bad.

They make me sick! :puke:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. We already have a "DEAD Zone" in the Gulf of Mexico, How dead do we have to make it
Edited on Sun May-02-10 11:47 PM by flyarm
before people wake the fuck up?
The day Obama announced he was opening up drilling the Sierra Club and many Dem's here in ST Pete were protesting Newt giving a speech on drilling in ST Pete..over 400 people were there protesting and only one sign by a dem about what Obama had just done by opening our coastlines..2/3rds the way down Florida on Both coasts.

I was so angry because the Gulf is my back yard..I help protect the turtles ..and Manatees which are so vulnerable and were on the verge of extinction not that many years ago..and were rebounding incredibly thanks to the work and dedication of so many Floridians..

Now we will see many of them die.

Our Gulf has a dead zone that no marine life can live..with no oxygen for any aquatic life possible..when do we the people take responsibility?????

This could be the worst eco-system catastrophy in our nations history.

And it will effect everyone!

Tonight on our news they said the oil is 35 miles from the LOOP CURRENT of the Gulf of Mexico..if the winds push it in that direction..the oil will go through the Gulf to teh Keys and on around to the Atlantic Ocean and then up the Atlantic ..it could possibly make it's way to Cuba..and Mexico...it all depends on the wind directions.

It is expected to hit the Panhandle of Fla Tuesday.

I am down in Cleawater..today when I walked on the beach..it was a beautiful sunny day without a cloud in the sky..and yet it was erie..as over the sand it was sugar white with sun glaring on the sand ..and yet from the water line out to sea..it was black..the air and sky was black like a horrible storm was coming..that kind of black sky..and yet there wasn't a cloud in sight..it was smoke..black black smoke ..the sky was like that only over the water ( GULF) it was really erie...it was smoke from the burning up north of the oil..
It lasted until the winds changed to come from the south..then it blew out and up..
earlier in the week we had 4 days of a horrible smell..everyone was talking about it..first it smelled like the most rotten onions..then after a day of that, it changed and smelled like chemicals.

The smell was from Tampa/Clearwater down to Ft Meyers at least a 3 hour drive from Tampa..many now worry about what we were breathing!

What a retirement I thought I had...worked all my life ..how greatful I was to retire here...I live in CLEARWATER...I just wonder, as do many here..how long our Water will be CLEAR????????

And how many of our neighbors in the sea will be lost?????

Already there have been dead birds on the beach and dead fish began showing up yesterday.

I called the local aquarium today about the dead fish in my backyard..they said they were sending people to get them... to test them.

Saying anger doesn't begin to tell you how I feel right now!
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. I don't understand how people can put Obama before all life forms & our beautiful planet.
Edited on Mon May-03-10 03:20 PM by earth mom
The responsibility for this mess falls squarely on Obama and the fact that he is continuing to push offshore drilling even after this horrific event should outrage every single person in this country!

The description you've posted just breaks my heart and I am so sorry that you have to see your beautiful home, wildlife and beach destroyed because of thoughtless greedy bastards.

That some people don't realize or care that this is a crisis of epic proportions that could kill off our oceans just blows my mind!

What is it going to take to get people to take back and care about this country and our planet?!

I'm so sorry for what you and the wildlife in the gulf are going through. :hug:
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
16. Several related CNN videos

4/30/10 Videos -
blame game in oil spill,
time runs out on Alabama fishing town,
workers blown out of bed,
worst case: we won't have shrimp or oysters and 20 years to recover,
politics behind the oil spill response (BP is the responsible party),
first oil bird found

other videos at this link too
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2010/04/30/dnt.mattingly.oil.nears.alabama.cnn

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
19. Timor Sea oil leak 'Australia's third biggest'
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/14/2685394.htm

While following this story last fall, I had this recurring, gnawing thought...

What if these jackasses have finally severed Mother Earth's artery and are UNABLE to staunch the flow?

It took them 10 weeks to do it and to be sure, follow up on the damage done is NOT front page news.

The current stab wound is worse by many orders of magnitude; from the severity of the bleed out to the reproductive time of year to the upcoming hurricane season and frankly, it would seem Mo'E is about to "shake us off like fleas." We suck her blood and THIS IS WHAT WE DO WITH IT:

Surf's up on remote Hawaiian islands.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8639769.stm?ls

To find out what is being done about the Plastic Vortex, Riz Khan speaks with the man who discovered the patch 13 years ago, Captain Charles Moore, the founder of the Algalita Marine Research Foundation.

http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/rizkhan/2010/04/2010423162310544930.html

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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
26.  What if these jackasses have finally severed Mother Earth's artery and are UNABLE to staunch the fl

I had the same thoughts. It was cheap oil that brought us the industrialization, automobiles, plastics in just about EVERYTHING that we buy nowadays.

And what happens if this massive oil leak puts an end to cheap oil resulting in gas $5 per gallon or higher! Plus the environmental concerns, loss of jobs, the list goes on and on.
:(

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
21. I'm thinking it's a gusher already and BP & the Government ...
Edited on Sun May-02-10 10:33 AM by Junkdrawer
are debating if they can hide that from the public.

Today the Coast Guard said that it's impossible to guess the leak rate - not a good sign.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
22. On our Tampa news last night : Sea World is mobilizing to attempt to save as many of the birds as
Edited on Sun May-02-10 10:20 AM by flyarm
possible ..They said they have 4 Vets available.and they are training people to safely help the birds but keep safe from the chemicals ..they said they have lots of room to keep many birds made sick from ingesting the oil..and they will care for many until they can be sent back to their natural habitat..

They will be using Pepto bismol ( SP?)..for those birds that ingest oil..

Many Floridians are donating Pepto and dish soap..and rags and towels..

It all makes me feel so sick..

The authorities where I am on Clearwater Beach are not sure if the oil will migrate here..it all depends on the winds..how far down the oil will migrate..

but there is worry for the turtles that lay their eggs on our beaches each May-Nov.

it is anticipated the oil could hit the Fla panhandle by Monday or Tuesday.

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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. Tri state bird rescue
is one of two organizations in the US that have all the equipment that is osha certified to do the bird and animal cleaning.
The class is 2 days of 12 hours of instruction.
We are hoping to get that set up asap here in Fl.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
23. Deepwater Horizon had been pumping 5,700+ barrels per day.
2 million barrels (each weighing about 350 pounds).

http://www.rigzone.com/data/rig_detail.asp?rig_id=153

If the riser pipe blows, who knows how much will gush out.

If America'd listened to Jimmy Carter, back in 1977, we might not be needing all this deep water black gold today.

Such is the power of Halliburton's owners.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Boyyyyy are you right on that!! It makes me sick..what could have been..but for the greed of few!
Edited on Sun May-02-10 10:36 AM by flyarm
yes the Halliburton filthy pigs, that even to today...even now ...get billions of our tax dollars in contracts from our government employees...the people we vote into offices..as they are all employees of we the people.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
30. "...spill of the decade..."? Try "spill of the century." This has the potential for being the

worst petroleum "accident" in the history of the industry. And unfortunately the potential environmental impact could reach cataclysmic proportions, much of it to be borne by the coastal areas of the United States and the Gulf of Mexico.


The poisonous tree is about to bear equally poisonous fruit, and unfortunately the consequences will be felt by many for decades to come. I do hope BP shareholders enjoyed their last stock dividend and company's Annual Report.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. you are exactly right! This could destroy all of the gulf states! and kill the Gulf of Mexico. eom
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
34. BP said in an article they'll have a dome up in a couple of weeks
sounds doubtful.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. BP has said a lot since April 22, most of it untrue**nm
**
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. + 10 million! eom
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
35. There's your offshore drill baby Sarah... come and get it
Go for it. Take that big mouth of yours and go down on it, you stupid ass.

It's a gusher, just like your cash-rich speaking tour.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Sarah Palin = Petrowhore. She's licked the boots of her oil masters for years.
For all practical purposes, Alaska is owned by the Texas-American Petroleum Cartel, and has been for years.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
38. 'the following is not public'
Edited on Sun May-02-10 01:16 PM by Enrique
Mobile Press-Register says, "oh yeah?" :thumbsup:
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
39. "The following is not public,"
Wow.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
41. 'Spill of the decade!' I like that. How about century?
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
43. Allen & Salazar have told CNN losing the well head would mean more than 4.2 million gallons a day
I wish they would stop using barrels as a measurement as if everyday folks know how much is in a barrel and expect them to do the math. Everyone knows what a gallon is.

My estimate, according to your numbers in the OP, is that 100,000 barrels means 4.2 million gallons.


SALAZAR: From day one, there has been the assumption here on the worst-case scenario. And so the--

CROWLEY: What is the worst-case scenario, while we're on that?

SALAZAR: The worst-case scenario is we could have 100,000 barrels or more of oil flowing out. And the requirements BP has is to have the capability to respond to that kind of a spill. And it means doing everything that's going on, including containing the well down at the bottom, mitigating the impacts on the sea, mitigating impacts as things happen on shore.

You're talking about a multi-billion dollar company here who is, I believe, the fourth-largest company in the world. And we will not spare any effort on the part of the United States of America to make sure that all of their resources are brought effectively to address the problem.

CROWLEY: Admiral Allen, just while we have that 100,000 figure, that being sort of disaster, is that something you fear the most? Do you think that could happen?

ALLEN: Well, if we lost the total wellhead, it could be 100,000 barrels or more a day. I think -- just to follow up on what Secretary Napolitano said, this whole thing has been kind of a process of discovery. It wasn't until they remotely-operated vehicles down, were able to survey the entire length of the 5,000-foot pipe-riser that was crumpled on the ocean floor, that we finally found three sequential leaks over a period of about 72 hours.

And as I told some folks, you know, the difference between 1,000 and 5,000 barrels a day, when you look at the potential discharge of 100,000, leads me to believe that there are a lot of inaccuracies associated with trying to estimate flow from a broken pipe at 5,000 feet. That's the reason it's so very, very important we focus on stopping this leak right away.

CROWLEY: Something else that Secretary Salazar brought up, saying, look, BP is a very wealthy company, we expect them to bring everything to the barricades on this. And I want to read you a quote, Admiral. This is from BP's chief operating officer in The New York Times. And he said, quote: "There are not much additional available resources in the world to fight this thing offshore. We've basically thrown everything we have at it."


Full transcript: http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1005/02/sotu.02.html


We are hearing a 'relief well' would take 90 days to be in place. How would they be able to put a relief well in place when the sea is basically full of oil.How about that dome they're talking about? How will they be able to put that in place within a sea full of oil?

I'm usually an optimistic person but to me this sounds like ocean murder that goes way beyond just destroying habitats in the gulf coast.




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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Thank you for your post...the oil does not flow out in barrels..it flows in gallons!
I am damn sick of that shit too!

It is a ploy to keep the masses damn stupid!

And it insults all of us..
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
50. K&R
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DRoseDARs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
51. Already posted Friday by TalkingDog; same source, adhered to the 3 paragraph rule.
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matt819 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
52. Order of magnitude
I thought the term meant exponential, not arithmetic.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_magnitude

An order of magnitude estimate of a variable whose precise value is unknown is an estimate rounded to the nearest power of ten. For example, an order of magnitude estimate for a variable between about 3 billion and 30 billion (such as the human population of the Earth) is 10 billion. In other words; when rounding its logarithm, a number of order of magnitude 10 is in between 109.7 and 1010.6. An order of magnitude estimate is sometimes also called a zeroth order approximation.
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feslen Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
55. as I have said before to friends and family who still think I am nuts...
our own greed and corporate companies will destroy us before the "terrorists" do. Oil companies, gas companies who drill in and next to reservoirs.... I can go on.

someone in this country wants to squish the normal people, and they don't care how many of us die just for a little money.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. We have an economic system based on exploitation of nature . . .
until we toss out capitalism and move on to more humane economic system --

more democratic economic system -- we are in suicidal mode!!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
58. k-
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