To everbody so pissed off at Obama they won't be voting

[WeDidIt]

Imagine if McCain were picking the replacement for Justice Stevens.

Furthermore, imagine if the Republicans controlled the Senate when the next Justice leaves the court.

[Captain Hilts]

1. Agree. Too bad Obama voters in VA already stopped voting in '09. nt

[muffin1]

5. I voted - reluctantly.

We had a choice between a total right-wing tool, and a sort-of right-wing moderate tool. I'm sure a lot of progressives sat out the election. And like I said, I almost did. I'm so tired of 'giving approval' of these right leaning dems with my vote. Why the hell can't liberals stand up for what they believe? We are so fucking wishy-washy, it's no wonder people are put off.

[Captain Hilts]

9. I held my nose and voted in VA many, many times. nt

[laughingliberal]

53. Your post brilliantly illustrates the conundrum

If we don't vote we get bat shit crazy right wingers. If we vote we get stealth right wingers only slightly better than the bat shit crazies. Votes for either one just confirms, in the minds of the RW Dems, that the move to the right is sanctioned by the voters.

[ChiciB1]

122. And There Lies The GREATEST Rub "laughingliberal" Because Either

way we seem to be supporting a GROUP that many of us have been disillusioned with! To NOT vote "gives" THEM the big :fistbump: and to vote means WE'RE getting a BIG :headbang: from Democrats, thereby promulgating MORE cynicism!

Didn't think I would ever have to feel this way at this point in time! There seem to be some here who still think Democrats will pick up more seats in the House & Senate! Personally that seems like a "reality" gone awry! I've never seen the likes of what's happening anymore, and I WAS around during the PROTESTS of Viet Nam! The difference from then and now is that it DOES seem that "we the people" had SOME voice and our voices were being heard! Today, the rule of thumb seems to be "just ignore" the little guy and the people be damned, just get that green in the palm and get re-elected!

I really don't have a clue as to how the upcoming elections will end up, but I will say that I'm in GREAT fear about any results!

How I wish my feelings about WHAT will happen would make me happier, but having seen what has gone down since '08 I think I may become even more depressed!!!

Living down here in Florida and just "thinking" about Marco Rubio scares me to death! And even worse, I've heard rumblings that Grayson might have to look for another job! I didn't think it could get worse than JEBBY, but then as my father used to say to me... "that's what you get for thinking!"

Putting EDUCATION here in the hands of MORE Repukes is ringing a loud bell of disaster to me!! I really wish how I'm feeling would go away! I want the GRAY clouds in the Sunshine State to GO AWAY! From this state to D.C., I keep wondering WHEN it MIGHT get better. Yep, I'm just CLUELESS!!
:shrug: :fear:

[NewJeffCT]

2. I would never not vote

no matter how disappointed I was. I realize how important it is that the House & Senate stay in Democratic hands... if Republicans win the House, we'll see the beginnings of impeachment proceedings in 2011.

There is a difference between voting, though, and donating money & time & effort.

[joeybee12]

3. Absolutely...and until Rahm and Obama realize they need to stop

not only ignoriing, but criticizing their base, there will be hard times ahead.

[ncteechur]

149. for who? President Obama? or you? or the rest of us?

Who will be the real victims of your problem with President Obama?

[LWolf]

4. Who said I won't be voting?

I just won't be voting for any blue dogs, dlc dems, "new" dems, or "3rd way" dems. I'll find 3rd party candidates when there are no better choices.

As long as there are some dems who still champion things like labor, peace, public education, and other programs that work to close economic gaps on my ballot, they'll get my vote.

Privatizers, corporate stooges, and war-mongers will not.

[Arctic Dave]

7. +1

[Karmadillo]

56. NO!!! You must vote for a Dem who opposes your core values! Otherwise, you'll be wasting your vote!!

nt

[readmoreoften]

127. +1

[NJmaverick]

6. This is always a point worth making... K&R

[Stinky The Clown]

75. Its a bullshit strawman point, but you go ahead and kick it.

[ncteechur]

150. Sometimes the strawman IS reality.

[Toasterlad]

8. Will Someone PLEASE Put Some More Money In the Jukebox?

I'm am SO sick of listening to the same record over and over.

[Captain Hilts]

10. Do you piss in every thread you're in?

[Toasterlad]

15. Just the Ones You're In, Too. You Inspire Me.

:loveya:

[Raineyb]

19. This deserves to be pissed on. It's only the millionth rehash of the same

people demanding you vote despite not liking what you're seeing from the party. With the assumption that 1. You've decided to completely abstain from voting which is not what was said and 2. On the occasion when the concept of a third party actually penetrates, that voting third party is the same as voting Republican and worse 3. That Democrats are entitled to our votes rather than having to actually earn them.

It's bloody tiresome.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. Too bad they're not listening. It will be largely the fault of...

"progressives" who don't vote this year if Congress turns, but will they ever admit it? Of course not-- they'll blame the press, teabaggers, and everyone else before they'l blame themselves. And they will be sure to loudly blame the Democrats to don't meet their standards.

I doubt Palin wil be on the ticket in '12, but if she is, and wins, how would that not be be worse than Obama? Or any other Democrat?

[RainDog]

12. if you want someone's vote, you don't shit on them and tell them to take it

because you want to suck the dicks of right wingers.

that's politics.

[muffin1]

13. +1,000,000,000,000.

I LOVE it.

[QC]

22. Thank you! n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

25. Likewise, if you're a voter, you don't always get the choices you want, but...

sneaking off home whining doesn't get you shit.

[Raineyb]

31. The voter is entitled to vote, or not vote, for whomever he or she sees fit based

on whatever criteria they set.

The party and it's politicians are not, on the other hand, entitled to expect anything from the voter. The politicians have to earn the votes they get. You seem to be under the impression that the voter has an obligation to vote for politicians who espouse the same values as the voter but doesn't bother to try to enact anything that is in line with those values once elected. You are mistaken.

[TreasonousBastard]

37. Huh? The voter can do any damn thing he or she wants to, including...

complaining about having lousy choices. But, when the reality is that only one of two people are going to get the job, sometimes one has to choose the least bad, rather than the better. Anything else is a waste.

You also seem to be forgetting that it's politicians who tend to run for office, and it's a bad bet to believe anything a politician says or promises. One thing it's safe to believe, though, is that the more successful ones do have some sense of where the majority of the electorate stands on things. Unfortunately, that is not always with you.

[Hello_Kitty]

43. The majority of the electorate wanted a public option. eom

[Toasterlad]

106. And An End To DADT.

[Ignis]

131. Oh, that's inconvenient. But I'm sure you'll receive a response soon.

Yup...any day now....

[Raineyb]

133. What? I can't hear you over the sound of all these crickets. n/t

[Ignis]

140. Why, that's not very sporting at all!

[TreasonousBastard]

147. Everywhere?

[girl gone mad]

170. Yes.

[Raineyb]

64. That is the point. So why are you demanding that people vote Democratic as though

the party were entitled to their votes?

I don't make the mistake of believing everything any politician says. But if I see their record is not in line with what I like I won't vote for them again. You sound as though you have a problem with this.

And it's not at all true that they have to have some sense of where the majority of the electorate stands on things. The majority of the electorate wanted at the least a public option. Do we have one? No. So this nonsense about the majority and whether or not it lies with what I'm thinking is exactly that. Nonsense. And if I am so far off the reservation then what difference does it make if I vote third party? Why would it be such a threat that we have people on a daily basis posting these idiotic admonishments to vote D no matter how much we dislike what they're doing?

[TreasonousBastard]

148. I'm not "demanding" anything. I am juust explaining that in most elections...

there are only two realistic choices and it makes no sesne to run away form them if one is clearly at least the lesser evil.

I don't buy that the majority wanted a public option, no matter what some polls said. Maybe they would have accepted it, but I never saw any great groundswell for it-- except for liberals endlessly pushing it when they realized single-payer was off the table.

Truth is, I think the public option had a lot of merit, but the whole bill, and the endless coverage and handwringing over the sausage factory, was so confusing that I doubt many out there (us wonks included) really knew what was going on.

[Raineyb]

164. You assume that people don't know what their options are. I know exactly what my choices are

and make my decision accordingly. And I will not allow the party to try to scare me into voting for them rather than third party if I see fit.

[grahamhgreen]

59. +1

[EnlightenedOne]

24. OMG - you can't be serious

how can Palin not be any worse than Obama. You haven't been paying attention. Let's turn the country into one big Tea Party and take the country back 100 years. That will work. Let's put a "no brain" in the White House again, because that turned out great with GWB.

[Toasterlad]

35. In What Way Is Your Life Different Under Obama Then It Was Under Bush?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

36. My school loans for one. My cousins are going back on their parent's health insurnace for another.

My cousin was able to buy his first house with the 8000 dollar tax credit.

[Toasterlad]

38. I'll Allow You the School Loan

THAT was a good move, although how it will play out remains to be seen. The negatives of the health insurance bill far outweigh the benefits, and the tax credit is something Bush would have been all in favor of.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

40. Oh and the court remained 5-4 Conservative v. Liberal instead of 6-3 Conservative Liberal

Which is a BIG one.

[Toasterlad]

57. That Really Did Help On That Whole "Corporations Don't Get a Vote" Thing, Didn't It?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

67. Well, I suppose if you take the very short view of things, it doesn't matter.

But for those of us who look to the future, it matters a great deal.

Sotomayor replaced an aging liberal who otherwise would have been replaced by a conservative. This appointment will likely hold for twenty years. In those twenty years, Scalia, kennedy, Ginsberg, and Breyer will all be gone. That leaves 3 conservatives stuck there (Alito, Roberts and Thomas). With Stevens retiring, that means a conservative would have appointed two replacements for Souter and Stevens giving the Conservatives 5 young justices and a conservative court for twenty years at least.

[Toasterlad]

96. We Dodged a Bullet With Souter In the First Place.

He was supposed to be a conservative, remember?

The point is, living in fear of what the makeup of the Supreme Court is going to be is not a valid reason to vote against your own self interest, which is what the Democratic party has been asking me to do for the last 40 years.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

100. The Republican Party (and the Democratic Party) is a very different animal than it was in the 80s

It is much more likely the justice would have more closely represented GWB's pick than GHWB's pick. That isn't worrying about some remote possibility, that is looking at the probability.

[Toasterlad]

104. But It's Not the ONLY Outcome of A Presidential Election

And I refuse to be intimidated into voting against my own interests because of a possible threat to the minority opinion of the Supreme Court. My vote is worth more than that.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

112. This actually isn't about *your* vote. You wanted to know how people's lives were different because

of an Obama win vs. a McCain win. That's a difference-we aren't facing 20 years of a RW SCOTUS.

Now, whether you believe that this difference is enough to sway your vote is a different matter. Same with the student loans situation-if you aren't in school, it probably doesn't affect you and has less weight in the determination of your vote.

[Toasterlad]

120. But Obama Is Not the Supreme Court.

Ultimately, as GHWB found out, the President has no say on how a Supreme Court Justice will rule.

What has Obama done, specifically, that has directly impacted your life in a different way than it was directly impacted under Bush? I grant you the student loan. I'd even grant you the hope generated by his lifting the ban on stem cell research, if you or a loved one has a disease or condition that might one day benefit. But nothing has changed for the gays. Nothing has changed for the soldiers. Nothing has changed for the victims of the bankers. Nothing's changed for the teachers.

If the only reason to vote for Obama is that he has a better chance of picking someone less conservative than Anthony Scalia to sit on the Supreme Court, NO, that's not worth my vote. And it shouldn't be worth anyone's.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

124. When you pick someone like Alito, do you really think there is any question as to which way he will

vote? Souter was an anomaly. The last justices appointed have all voted the way their president wanted them to vote.


I do not agree with everything Obama does. I think he has earned a solid F in dealing with equal rights (because he hasn't dealt with them at all), I think his environmental record is mixed at best and I think he wasted a good portion of his first year in office trying to make nice. But, I do not believe that these failings are enough for me to not vote Democratic. I was too young to vote for Gore, but I remember the "Oh, they're the same!" meme that was quite popular then. Well, that turned out to be a whole lot of bullshit and that is a lesson I won't soon forget.

[Toasterlad]

129. I'm Not Talking About Not Voting Democratic. I'm Talking About Not Voting Progressive.

It is no longer enough for me to settle for the lesser of two evils, ever again. I will never vote "against" someone again. Doing that is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place.

I will only vote FOR candidates; candidates with a record of supporting the things I care about. Candidates who I am confident will work for me, and not for corporate interests. That is what my vote is FOR: to voice my wishes of how I want government to work. No one's vote is supposed to be used to determine how they DON'T want to be goverened.

[onenote]

160. i'm sure you understand how voting works. Its a zero sum game

When you vote for someone, you also are voting against someone. Maybe you don't think so or don't want to believe it to be so, but you can't escape it. A vote for someone to get elected is a vote against everyone else who is running.

[Toasterlad]

165. Principles Matter.

[onenote]

159. so how is it in your "self interest" to help get a republican elected?

[Toasterlad]

166. You Can Attempt To Blame Me All You Want. It Won't Work Anymore.

If the Democrats are presenting a product that I don't want, I'm not going to buy it. If that means they lose, that's THERE fault, not mine.

[onenote]

169. and you can pretend that you're not to blame all you want. that won't work either.

[Toasterlad]

173. So, Who Is More To Blame: Me Or Ralph Nader?

How about the moon being in Taurus the night of the election? Or maybe God doesn't like gays, so he made the Democrats lose?

You people have a million excuses for the party's many inadequacies. It's always someone else's fault when they fail. It would be funny if wasn't so tragic.

[jgraz]

62. Well... I can now be assassinated if the president doesn't like me.

Does that count?

[Toasterlad]

63. Half a Point. You Could Have Been Assassinated Under Bush, Too.

But then, the Democrats wouldn't have cheered.

[jgraz]

69. I think the cheering Democrats is the worst part

Seeing how many on the so-called "left" are really just teabaggers for a different party is very discouraging.

[Toasterlad]

74. You Said It, Brother.

[TreasonousBastard]

39. Eh? I think there may be some slight miscommunication here.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NJmaverick]

46. It will be similar to when the Republicans took a beating in 2008 and figured

their problem was they weren't conservative enough

[backscatter712]

50. The key word in your post is "progressives".

As in they're "progressive", not progressive. Actual progressives will be voting - you don't have to tell them, as opposed to the "progressives" who weren't going to vote Democratic to begin with.

[Greyhound]

88. No, we'll blame you and the corporations for which you stand.

We are not welcome in either case so, fuck off.

[dflprincess]

128. This administration and its apologists have made it clear that they don't need the left

so don't blame us if things go badly this year or in 2012.

You can't have it both ways.

[LoZoccolo]

14. They're going to say it anyways; it's a manipulative tactic, not a reasonable position.

The whole point is "I'm so crazy you better do what I want". It's like they've got nothing else. Probe these people a little more and you'll often find they do little else politically than complain.

[bamacrat]

16. If you don't vote because Obama is not as liberal as you wish he were you might as well...

BE A TEABAGGER. They sure as hell will vote and without a vote to cancel theirs out congress will be even worse. Think about it. You are badly hurting yourself and hindering the future of our country out of spite or "principle." Even moderate democrats are better than any republican.

[muffin1]

21. Voting for repuke-lites is only exacerbating the problem.

Hell, I'm guilty of it, too - see my post above. I am getting sick and tired of it, though. Maybe a Palin/Bachmann administration would wake this country the fuck up.

[bamacrat]

26. No it wouldn't. It may wake us liberals up but like Bush the next Dem pres. would have to ...

spend their entire presidency fixing it. Not to mention all the freedoms we would lose. Roe v. Wade would be out, torture would be recommended, every school would be a christian school. IT isn't worth it.

[tonysam]

23. What's the difference between Obama and the GOP on education? None.

It's time for people to take responsibility for their votes. Calling out people is against the rules, by the way.

[bamacrat]

27. The GOP would allow prayer.

[ecstatic]

17. Their pattern: 1. Sit out or vote third party; 2. Act

SHOCKED when a repug destroys the country and sets it back decades...
3. Finally realize they have to vote democratic...
4. Then when democrats take over, they are OUTRAGED when everything isn't fixed immediately and all of their pet issues are not immediately addressed...
5. So then they sit out or vote third party in the following election.

They are chronic amnesiacs and will never change. They don't function in the real world.

[ShortnFiery]

30. I don't know, the corporatists are going to wait a hell of a long time for this democrat's vote.

Not again will I EVER vote for another warmongering corporate democrat. Progressives only or third party liberals are the only people who deserve to be elected.

Republican lite is A LIE.

If this country is going to go fascist, let it be with the people who've honed warmongering and corruption down to a fine science.

The DLC/Blue Dogs/Third Way Democrats are on the same path as the GOP but keeping a SLIGHTLY slower pace.

BFD, let it hurt BAD. Then just perhaps, the people will WTFU?

[NJmaverick]

48. Why does the GOP hope more liberals feel the way you do?

[Ignis]

41. Just go ahead and say "pony" if that's what you're implying.

Or just take a page from Rahm's playbook and call Lefties "retarded," why don't you?

What a crock. :thumbsdown:

[NJmaverick]

47. Yup they are like a slinky on an escalator

they just keep going around and around and around and getting no where.

[jgraz]

70. The DLC pattern: 1. collaborate with Repukes to destroy the country

2. Get elected and immediately declare Republican policy to be the new "center"
3. Piss on anyone who worked to get you elected
4. Whine when you lose and blame the "fucking retarded" progressives
5. Go to step 1.

[dflprincess]

130. It will be so much easier to take when the DLC Democrats

destroy "reform" education and Social Security.

Because when it comes to finishing off the middle and working classes some jobs are so dirty only the "Democrats" will be able to get by with it.

[girl gone mad]

171. Calling them amnesiacs implies they're forgetful..

when, in fact, they might be the only group with the memory and intelligence to hold politicians accountable for their failures.

[tonysam]

18. But it's okay to privatize public services, like education, because a "Democrat" does it.

Interesting. When the mask comes off of Obama and Duncan and people point it out, let's deflect the argument by talking about McCain. Let's name call and so on because the media never vetted Obama in the first place and millions of people had NO idea how much of a neoliberal this guy is. And he IS.

If Obama doesn't start acting like a Democrat on education and other issues, including reversing policies bailing out Wall Street and doing nothing to create jobs, he can forget about another term.

[DrDan]

29. I agree - - - - - I find it funny that there are those (including some in this thread)

who will blame dissatisfied dems for potential loss of an elected seat - but not the incumbant who just will not support Dem values.

[ShortnFiery]

20. You've wore many of us out. That old meme falls on deaf ears.

We'll be voting for PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS only.

No amount of intimidation will get me to vote for warmongers and/or corporate whores masquerading with "a D" behind their names.

The Corporatists have hijacked OUR PARTY. They need not be rewarded for the damage they've caused.

Yes, let it get REAL BAD. Then when the democratic party arises from the dust, it will have true progressive values to uphold.

[Peacetrain]

45. Intimidation.. geez louise..

Vote for who ever you want to.. free country..but if you decide to try a Nadar, do not whine about what gets in

[NJmaverick]

49. You are willing to see the Country go down in flames

just so you can proudly declare you never budged an inch or was willing to compromise on a single issue?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. Yes, and Obama is pouring gasoline on the fire

with his continuations of Bush policies.

[Nye Bevan]

28. Waaah! Waaah! Waaah! Obama is not 100% perfect on every issue!

So I'm going to "sit out" the next election, help get Palin elected President, and hopefully she'll put another 2 Scalias on the Supreme Court and start a couple of unnecessary wars! Now that will teach 'em a lesson!

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Egnever]

44. Then run someone

WTF you dont like your pick then get off your ass and get a candidate. You dont have to accept whats given to you. If however your plan is to just sit it out to punish the party then you are nothing more than an idiot. I for one do want "liberal" voters alienated maybe then they will do more than cry and sit elections out and actually do something about it.

Course we kno the real reason that there arent more "liberal" candidates is cause they cant get elected dog catcher in most states. Why do you suppose that is?

[Hello_Kitty]

51. Gosh, it must be because liberal ideas are really terrible

You know, things like universal health care, living wages, safe workplaces, clean air, good schools, etc. Such unpopular notions. Yeah, it must be because of that. Not because of a corrupt election system, a lying complicit MSM, and corporate DLC suckups.

[laughingliberal]

54. +1000 nt

[NJmaverick]

55. It couldn't possibly be that many liberals are their own worse enemy

it JUST HAS TO BE someone else's fault.

[Hello_Kitty]

60. We get it, Rahm, we're fucking retards.

And everything is the fault of the dirty fucking hippies. Everything. Just HAS TO BE. Can't possibly be someone else.

[Egnever]

66. When you are willing to let a repuke win to try to prove a point

It's your fault.

[NJmaverick]

72. yup

[Hello_Kitty]

77. We get it. The narrative for November: "Blame the Dirty Fucking Hippies". eom

[NJmaverick]

71. Why did he use those unfortunate choice of words? If I remember

it was because liberals were wasting money attacking Democrats instead of Republicans.

[Hello_Kitty]

79. Rahm was FORCED to use those "unfortunate words"!

Because dirty fucking hippies cared about *gasp* health care reform instead of Ben Nelson's political future.

[NJmaverick]

80. LINK?

[Raineyb]

86. Unfortunate choice of words? He didn't have to use those words at all

He CHOSE to use them. Nobody put a gun to his head to force him to do so. Of course we can't expect a DLC apologist to actually make sure the members of their clique have to take responsibility for anything. Better to blame someone else. This time it's liberals.

[NJmaverick]

93. He should have told the liberals attacking Dems instead of Republicans they were being foolish

that way his critical and important message would not be lost in the outrage over his poor choice of words. As for the blame game, the self destructive liberals who attack the wrong targets seem to be far more skilled than I ever could be.

[Raineyb]

102. Self destructive. The only time blue dogs seem to get in line is when their job

to which someone lied to them and told them they are entitled to, is threatened. So you're damn right that if a Democrat votes like a Republican they ought to have ads run against them.

The only thing Rahm is interested in is getting his corporate agenda through and he'd prefer it if someone didn't point out the truth. That makes things more difficult for him.

It is BEFORE the final ballots are printed and the candidates go to the general election that people can best put pressure on these politicians. To undermine this is to show your true colors and those colors (of YOURS) hasn't a damn thing to do with actual Democratic principles. But then what would we expect from someone who worships the same man who would push out an actual progressive with ties to a community to dump money on some hand picked candidate who doesn't have the support of the community then is surprised when the Republican lite loses to an actual Republican.

Rahm is fucking wrong as hell. And to say that he has his head up his ass is to be very kind about how asinine his strategy is. That you agree with it just shows exactly how far up your ass YOUR head is. But then by the posts in this entire thread that's not hard to figure out anyway.

[Ignis]

132. Are you a white heterosexual male not living in poverty?

That'd be my guess.

[Nye Bevan]

141. I'm someone whose wife has a pre-existing medical condition

that would render her uninsurable, and so I was living in fear of losing my job and not being able to obtain health coverage, and I am now extremely happy that Obama was able to pass his health plan.

I'm someone who is happy that the investment income of the rich will now be taxed to provide healthcare for the poor. And that the top rate of tax for the wealthiest is going up to help the rest of us.

I'm someone who is pleased to see someone competent running the country after the 8 moron years of Bush. Is Obama perfect? No. But I'm sick and tired of the "sit this one outters" who seem to want to elect Palin just because Obama isn't quite as perfect as they would like.

[helderheid]

33. rec'd

[LynneSin]

52. This is why primaries are created

That's the time we unload bad dems - not at a general election where the other choice would ultimately be a republican

[grahamhgreen]

58. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS 'FIX' THE HEALTH CARE BILL LIKE YOU PROMISED.

[jgraz]

61. How many times do I have to repost this?

Let's face it: exhorting a disillusioned base to "stick with the team" has NEVER worked.

Posted by jgraz in General Discussion
Tue Jan 19th 2010, 07:43 PM


1980...1984...1988...1994...2000...2004. We never seem to learn.

Every time a weak, center-right Democrat loses an election we hear the same things over and over: "lesser of two evils", "purity police", "you're probably happy we lost", etc, etc, etc. And every time, we go right back to the same losing strategy.

Take 2000 for example. Sure, you can blame the Florida felon's list or the butterfly ballot. You can even continue to blame Ralph Nader and the few people who voted their conscience. But none of those things cost us as many votes as an anemic, middle-of-the-road candidate and his sanctimonious tool of a running mate. Gore's come a long way in 9 years, but in 2000 he wasn't exactly a progressive crusader. Failure to learn this lesson led directly to the Kerry candidacy of 2004 and another close, steal-able election against the worst president in history.

I thought after 2006 and 2008 we had finally figured it out: you run attractive candidates that excite the base and you win elections. You don't even have to excite them that much -- Democrats and Democratic values have always held the true majority in this country -- you just need to give them a reason to come out and vote.

But here we are again. We've lost two races with unpopular candidates: one, a corporate pirate and another who tried to out-teabag his opponent. And here come the posts begging us to "not lose heart" or to "hold our nose and vote" -- just as if the last 30 years of national politics never happened.

It's not going to work. It's never worked. If we keep nominating weak candidates, if our national leaders keep running to the right under some vague smokescreen of "bipartisanship", then Democrats will lose. And if, somehow, Republicans manage to field even crappier candidates than we do (see 1992), *we* -- as in "We The People" -- still lose.

I'm not sure what the right solution is, but I do know that this continual reliance on weak, incremental change and candidates just a little less appalling than their opponents is a proven failure. Even if we manage to eek out a few victories, we've already seen how one committed, radical Republican can undo decades of Democratic incrementalism.

It's time we stopped settling for less.

[Toasterlad]

65. Sorry, J...."Republican! Boo!" Is All the DLC Has.

I wouldn't expect the song to change too much.

[Zenlitened]

134. Excellent post. - n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. I'll gladly vote for Obama when, and if, he earns my vote.

Otherwise, I'll do as I did in '08 and vote for the most progressive, anti-war, candidate on the ballot.

[NJmaverick]

78. How was that vote any better than a vote for McCain?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

81. It wasn't wasted on somebody I don't agree with.

Which would have been equally the case if I had voted for McCain.

[NJmaverick]

82. I am talking real world, how was it any better in the real world where results matter?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. My conscience is part of the real world. Is yours?

So, how much did your vote for Obama (I assume you voted for him) affect the "real" world?

[NJmaverick]

87. My vote has made drastic changes in the real world, from nuclear disarmament

to the end of US sanctioned torture, to people getting health insurance, to the US economy being saved from a second great depression, to the fuel economy standards being raised, to billions being spent on green energy and conservation and so on.

You have NOTHING to show for your vote.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

90. YOUR vote did that? Amazing.

Your single vote did all that!!

And, you claim to live in the "real" world.

[NJmaverick]

94. Yup, voting can be a powerful thing if it is used wisely

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

108. And, do you start hurricanes by exhaling?

Cause the tides to flow by flushing?

[Greyhound]

89. Hear, hear!

[treestar]

142. "Earning" a vote is a strange concept

It sounds like your vote is for sale.

By all means, vote for obscure third parties. You'll just be cancelled out by Libertarians.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

153. A "strange concept"? It's called democracy. Look it up.

Whereas, following the "party line" is regimentation.

"Freedom for the supporters of the government only, for the members of one party only - no matter how big its membership may be - is no freedom at all. Freedom is always for the man who thinks differently." Rosa Luxemburg

[Stinky The Clown]

73. Better yet, imagine if President Straw Man were picking his replacement.

I got news for ya, Skippy ...... There is not ONE PERSON who regularly posts to DU who voted for gramps or who now wishes they had.

Not One Person.

So cut the shit.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

76. There is a handful of people that claim there is no difference between the two.

I'm not referring to those that say there isn't enough of a difference, but to those who say there is NO difference.

[Stinky The Clown]

83. Are you talking about regular posters?

I have NEVER seen a regular poster say they did or would vote for gramps. Not one.

I know you can't name them cuz that would be a call-out. Tell ya what. Next time you see one, send me the link.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

84. Posters who say that there is no difference between President Obama and President McCain.

That is the standard that I am referring to-NOT posters that say they would vote for McCain, and not posters that say there isn't enough of a difference. I'm talking about posters who say there is no difference so why bother voting at all. Yes, there are DUers in good standing who say such things and I surely will send you a link when I see the next one.

[Toasterlad]

97. And Still None Of Them Voted For McCain, Or Are Sorry He Lost.

If you truly believe that there's no difference between Obama and McCain, why would you be sorry that McCain didn't win?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

105. Actually, one person did say they wish McCain had won

Their reasoning was that if McCain had won, he would have made the U.S. so unbearable that eventually a progressive would have been elected.

[Hello_Kitty]

110. One person. Wow. eom

[SemiCharmedQuark]

116. Seeing one well respected DUer advocate such an asinine approach is a pretty jarring sight

[NNN0LHI]

168. well respected by who?

I would like to be the judge of that one.

Don

[walldude]

111. You mean trolls...

The don't represent DU.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

117. No. I mean well respected DUers who have been here for years.

[walldude]

123. LOL there are a number of those "well respected" trolls

who have gotten their tombstone lately. And I have seen 4 or 5 other of the usual suspects today aiming high and supporting all the good republican causes... Their time is coming.

[Greyhound]

91. If they cut the shit, what would they use to distract from the theft? n/t

[laughingliberal]

98. President Straw Man! We see a lot of him around here. nt

[ecstatic]

101. Elections do have consequences

Review 2001-2008. Maybe one day you'll "get it."

[laughingliberal]

109. That's what we hear

I haven't seen to many consequences of the last for the RW. Both parties seem to be doing pretty good by 'conservative values.' I 'got it' that people who support liberal values have had no where to go for quite some time now. We get right wing or bat shit crazy right wing. Great choices, huh?

[ecstatic]

113. Maybe you should take a little time to read up on recent changes

that have been made since Obama took office. I think if you take the time to inform yourself you'd find that the vast majority of changes are liberal in nature.

[laughingliberal]

118. Oh, yes! I love the liberal education policies that Newt has been traveling around with Arne to

promote! And that HCR bill that enshrined the for profit, corporate interests in our health care system forever? Why I practically fainted with rapturous, liberal ecstasy! And the offshore drilling? I haven't been able to stop celebrating! I can hardly wait for the deficit commission recommendations on entitlement reform.

Your slams are ridiculous. Since unemployment has been my lot in life for over 2 years, I have done nothing but 'inform' myself. I don't like the New Democrat coalition policies. They look just like the old Republican policies to me. In fact, they look to the right of the Republicans who were around when I started voting. You support them? Great! That's your right. But I have a right to say I don't like being pissed on and told it's raining.

[blindpig]

95. You gotta be kidding....

Given what we've seen from this administration these sort of scare tactics have lost most of their effect, doncha think?

[Toasterlad]

99. It's All They Have.

[Raineyb]

103. And they think if they repeat it ad nauseam that people will start to believe them.

I'm not buying that shit anymore. I stopped buying that with Clinton.

[defendandprotect]

107. Imagine if someone really liberal were picking Stevens' replacement ...!!!

THAT's where we need to go --

Imagine also that we were pulling the Repugs to the LEFT rather than Dems being

pulled to the RIGHT?


Let's fight for ideals -- not fear-based compromise and surrender!

[WillyT]

114. The Purity Test Posts Should Be Riiiiiight Around The Corner...

Can't ya hear that train a'comin ???

:evilfrown:

[laughingliberal]

119. I hear it. Must be getting close. nt

[walldude]

115. Hey I have an idea...

How about you vote for the person you want to vote for and I'll vote for the person I want to vote for and the person with the most votes wins.

I have another idea as well. How about I wait and see what happens before I blindly follow the Democrats off the same cliff as the the Republicans.

[whatchamacallit]

121. I'm gonna do what I always do

whatever my conscience dictates.

[JoseGaspar]

125. It won't work...

Obama won in a turnout election. "The other guy could have been worse" won't generate turnout - never has, never will. Besides, the other guy could have been worse on a range of issues which the broad electorate mostly couldn't give a shit about. African-Americans, Hispanics, Union households, students, women, lower middle-class urban dwellers... these are the Democratic constituencies. They will not turn out in record numbers because of a fear of Republicans, or magical speechifying, or a fascination with 12 dimensional chess.

And then there is the OP. The OP's contribution is significant. It is always good to tell the electorate that it is all their fault, to blame the victim, and to taunt the active. As a contestant for the most entitled and obnoxious award on a new-wave reality show, it might work. As a political strategy, probably not.

[laughingliberal]

126. Thank you! How people can ignore that most people get tired of being blackmailed with this crap is

beyond me. There does come a day when it won't work, anymore. The more our ROI (what we actually get for our vote) goes down, the less the threat of electing Republicans has the power to get people to the polls.

[RainDog]

143. what you say is true.

the OP personifies the obnoxiousness of some here - esp. the person who started the thread.

this person has said he never wants to ever meet anyone on DU, ever. he's a real charmer.

I was somewhat surprised when I read the post in which he stated this, but it goes with his general cluelessness about the psychology of voters. (and I'm sure there are many here who are equally happy they will never have to meet him.)

for my part, I have continued to put more and more of these sorts of posters on ignore. they have nothing of worth to say, what they do say is damaging to democrats, and yet they continue, day after day to do the same thing.

what's the definition of insanity?

people will not be bullied by some self-important peon on a message board to vote against their consciences.

I will not vote for an anti-choice/anti-woman candidate. I don't give a fuck what argument is put forth.

that is the political line I will not cross. I will not vote for a democrat whose goal is to force women into second-class status.

no amount of bullying will change this. some things are not negotiable for some people and this is one of those things for me.

teachers are not going to be very enthusiastic about an Obama vote either.

but apparently the party peons think that people have to vote for someone who goes against their values... for what purpose?

Obama has done some good things and some bad things. He was and is definitely wrong to court the right wing, esp. the religious right. He risks alienating entire blocs of voters by this strategy. He risks alienating the entire generation of voters who came of age expecting him to be less of a corporate suck up than he is. Those voters don't have to vote for anyone. they can be entirely apathetic because they feel there are no choices and it really doesn't matter what anyone on this board says.

they will decide not to participate when they feel like they've been sold a bill of goods.

when I see Obama attempt to dismantle and demean the educational process in the U.S. it makes me sick. What's the REAL problem with education in this nation? POVERTY. religious indoctrination. a culture that cares more about a lottery version of success, like American Idol, than working hard and doing a good job and being proud of what you produce.

the blue dogs can high-five themselves for fucking over the American public vis a vis the public option. let them lose their elections to tell them to fuck themselves.

[ibegurpard]

135. Get back to me if we get a liberal in the Stephens mold

I won't be holding my breath.

[EnlightenedOne]

136. THREE THINGS

1. Look at Virginia. (And Kentucky, Ohio, Indiana and Texas). All Repubs in power.
In Virginia, people and businesses and now LEGALLY discriminate against gays. And there is what - confederate month.

2. I cannot believe that "progressives" and people with common sense can possibly think that 8 to 30 years of damage (if not complete and utter destruction) can be undone by one President in the timespan of a year or 2. Seriously.

3. If you think the President has complete and utter power - you haven't been paying attention. There is a power behind the power behind the power - which should be obvious (bankers, wallstreet, etc.). The President can only do so much. INTENT is what matters. I truly believe that Obama has the best of intentions - which has been made obvious by his equal pay initiative, the health care fight and vote, college tuition, his DESIRE for equal rights, etc., etc.

[Raineyb]

138. First, the Democratic nominee basically ran as a Republican. Why vote for a faux Republican

if you can get the real thing. He clearly didn't do enough to distinguish himself from his opponent. Plus, he deliberately took stances that turned the base off. You expect people to just vote for anyone who is hostile to their values because the person running happens to have a D after his or her name?

Second, no one is expecting 30 years of damage to be undone by one President in a year. But they damn sure expect things to move in the correct direction. Republican policies with a Democratic front man is still a Republican policy.

And no one is arguing that the President has complete and utter power but it it telling of where his priorities are when we see him actually use his power. And in the insurance reform bill we can see where his priorities were NOT. No public option and single payer not even considered. Are people supposed to expect fights for more progressive things when we don't see him fighting for them?

Fourth, the Democratic part is not entitled to our votes. If they don't earn them they won't get them and the fault will be with the candidates not with the voters.

[laughingliberal]

155. "the fault will be with the candidates and not the voters"

Thank you! I would think this would be obvious. But, blaming the voters is a clever way to provide cover for the fact that many of our elected leaders haven't represented the needs of their constituents.

[SusanaMontana41]

137. Thanks for pointing that out

Not surprised you're getting pummeled. I get pummeled, too, for sticking by my president even when he doesn't do exactly, precisely what I think he should do. It's happened here several times.
No hard feelings about my fellow DUers, though. We're a big tent here.

Hang in there, WeDidIt!

[Born_A_Truman]

139. No votey, no gripey!

[laughingliberal]

157. Seems as if many here also believe 'votey, no gripey.'

I certainly do think I get to 'gripey' when I vote for candidates who reverse positions for which I supported them but, here, I'm often lambasted for criticism of said policies. A lot of 'vote for Democrats and the STFU about what they're doing going around.'

[demwing]

144. Simple math : That 2 does not = 3 does not mean that 2 > 3

While you can sometimes help measure a thing by eliminating what it is NOT, in the end, you only truly determine the value of a thing when you define what it is.

Saying Obama is not McCain is like saying 2 is not = 3. It doesn't help understand, or create any appreciation for "2" at all.

[Unvanguard]

145. They don't care about that. They would rather exult in their self-righteous purity. n/t

[rug]

146. Imagine if we got out of Afghanistan.

Furthermore, imagine if there was actually national health care.

How many times are you going to plant the McCain scarecrow?

[lib2DaBone]

151. Thank God for crums that fall off the table...Dems should be thankful for what they get..

[lib2DaBone]

152. 3rd party is coming.. people are tired of being ripped off...

[still_one]

154. That may be, but the third party everyone is talking about is the racist, hate mongering

tea party elements

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Silent3]

161. The end result is almost always between the lesser of two evils.

No, I'm not "demanding" that you vote for Democrats in general elections. No, I'm not questioning your right to write in Mickey Mouse or sulk at home on election day if that's what satisfies your need to express how you feel.

What's important to me is end results. Nothing to do with whether the person getting my vote is "entitled" to it. Not whether someone else is a much closer match to my political ideas or not (although I can at least indulge in that more during primary elections).

What matters is the most likely results for the whole country. If you want to talk about "false choices", voting for someone like a Green Party candidate in a general election is more of a "false choice" 99% of the time, because there's no mechanism in the electoral system that will translate your heart-felt intent into anything other than the exact opposite of your intent, and very little chance that you can "punish" the country into eventually learning how so-very-right you were by letting bad electoral results happen.

[subaltern]

158. The only people I know pissed at Obama are Republicans

but on the issue of the Court, yeah, how incredibly disastrous it would be for a Repub to be in the White House as all of the liberal Justices get old and retire. It is, however, unfortunate that the best we can hope for - even if Obama has two terms - is to replace some old libs with younger ones. I don't suspect any of the conservatives are going to retire in that time period. Is Thomas the oldest one?

[frustrated_lefty]

162. Isn't it a little early for the purity test?

[Threedifferentones]

163. Vote for a third party and send a message

If you don't vote, the parties don't care about you. We need a multi-party system, two just doesn't cut it, it's too similar to one.

[gleaner]

167. I'll be voting ...

Never for McCain or any other Republican, but I am looking at Grayson or someone like him who I hope will run against Obama in the primary. I would vote for him in a heartbeat. There is a second choice, you know. While you are mulling over the horrors of McCain, you might want to think of wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan,Yemen and lots of saber rattling at Iran coming from this administration. You might also want to think of Obama breaking teachers unions and firing them using a piece of Bush legislation that was never a good idea to begin with, and which he could have modified to benefit both teachers and students.

You might also want to check out his trip to the supreme court a few months back where he got the decision he wanted to legalize imprisonment without Habeas Corpus of those he or his administration name "unlawful detainees," rendition, tribunals instead of trials for "unlawful detainees" and suspension of Habeas Corpus. Guantanamo is still holding prisoners whom are most likely innocent according to a former Bush official who just came forward and said so and that Bush knew it.

Obama plans to open up the east coast and formerly off limits parts of Alaska for oil drilling after saying that he would not in a film clip from 2008 and he has backed away from finding alternate fuel sources which do not harm the environment.

There is inflation, he does not provide enforcement for the HEMP program so the banks have no incentive to refinance mortgages and they do not. People are losing their homes in record numbers and will continue to do so. The economy is dismal despite people who say "ignore the polls" and trust the stock market, when it was the banks and Wall Street who helped put us here. And so many other things I could list if I had space and time that I know I will be called a liar for saying. So tar McCain, call me anything you like but deep down inside who trusts Obama to nominate a supreme court justice who is going to support anybody's liberal agenda? Obama doesn't have a liberal agenda. He governs, votes and thinks like the Republicans. Reagan after all was his favorite president. He said so himself.

[xchrom]

172. And here we thought only Repukes drummed up

Fear Mongering.