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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 03:09 PM
Original message
The sickness between powerful men and their madam..
Edited on Mon Apr-30-07 03:35 PM by undergroundpanther
Why do wealthy politicians go to Madams for? Can't they be happy with their wives/girlfriends? No.
Because leaders have distorted personalties. Why do powerful or wealthy people in leadership positions go compulsively to play "games"of sadism and masochism? Because the people most thirsty for power and social prestige are the most MASOCHISTIC . Bush went for a "Top",when he had his homosexual relationship with Jeff Gannon.

Why do "powerful" people with an 'image' and reputation of being 'upstanding'and a career to protect go to of all things a prostitute? Because of the "naughty" factor they know it will offend thier base and cause confusion about their "moral character" They want to be punished.So they are"pushing limits" and getting off on the risk of being revealed going to a prostitute and the masochistic impulse to be humiliated in a warped personality playing leader that kind of reenactment of traumas is irresistible to them.

A leader" being beaten or humiliated by a "lowly" person in society a "disgraced woman" like a prostitute is part of the shaming they want.In the"leader's" own mind he can be "purified" with this ritual of humiliation and S/M games and the risk of career ruining exposure of scandalous activities' and the resulting revulsion by the people he dominates(or thinks he does) is a big thrill to the"leader".

This game is a turn on for truly impotent males playing the alpha male in the social role. For this warped masochistic compulsion to be fed, sex need not be involved with the prostitute it all just power and powerlessness and a distorted personality . Because it is a deviant outlet for sex that is seen as shameful..S/M distorts sex which is off limits and makes it into a fetish.

Over time to a masochist leader,it becomes about reinforcing and justifying a desperate illusion of abosulte power and regulating an addiction to powerlessness.This drama is in the MIND of the leader. It's games about limits and right and wrong acted out regulating painful often suppressed emotions with whips chains and bondage and memories of soul crushing powerlessness by submitting and power he wants to identify with,and this re-traumatizing,purging to excuse himself for doing bad things while in his'power role'as a senator or father priest or president .A sounbd beating from a madam dominatrix relieves his own shame for doing bad things in public office is "paid" for with a ritual S/M "scene" session with a dominatrix or sadist...It is a deep sickness a fetish for abuse could be partly caused by abuse from childhood trauma.
And when we citizens follow a masochistic leader or accept leadership and submit to said leader's will even when he makes laws and policies that HURT us and some of us still insist he is a good person and go so far as to give him a 'mandate' and we enable him to decide for us, we are permitting him to act out his sickness through public office and doing private scandals. In effect WE are co-playing a role in an S/M game,keeping a very destructive re-traumatizing emotional/social sickness in ourselves in our society and it the'leaderships'acted out on a huge scale continuing.And playing these"roles" in this "dream" of our "leaders" is KILLING us.

Here are some links that might get you thinking and to see the real reasons why our leaders are so self serving two faced,perverted ,hypocritical,bigoted, sexually messed up,and inept.....

Wealth & Worship. "The interconnection,between sadism, masochism, success-worship, power-worship, nationalism and totalitarianism is a huge subject whose edges have barely been scratched."
George Orwell..

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,792928,00.html?promoid=googlep

"..freedom has a twofold meaning for modern man: that he has been freed from traditional authorities and has become an 'individual,' but that at the same time he has become isolated, powerless and an instrument of purposes outside of himself, alienated from himself and others; furthermore, that this state undermines his self, weakens and frightens him, and makes him ready for submission to new kinds of bondage. Positive freedom on the other hand is identical with the full realization of the individual's potentialities, together with his ability to live actively and spontaneously."

Eric Fromm
Escape from Freedom

In the theater of masochism, scenarios are staged by male authority figures (not un-typically by judges, lawyers, male bosses and teachers) so that they can be 'punished' by an underling-by a dominatrix, who treats them as a slave. Having weak egos, they call on the dominatrix as the superego representative over whom they paradoxically control. There is a written contact with the dominatrix. As 'bottoms' they remain in charge, and say when they have received 'enough' punishment. Such a hierarchical reversal of social roles gets them 'off.'

http://www.utpjournals.com/simile/issue21/jagodzinski4.html

It is seductive to be dominant, to have the rest of the world available as cheap labor and raw material for the inducement of pleasure. And it is comforting to think that the victims enjoy their victimization, to perhaps couch the exploitation in sexual symbolism as a sort of seduction in which blood is yielded up willingly to the murdering fangs. But this is just another lie,
http://trumpeter.athabascau.ca/index.php/trumpet/article/view/225/319
Escape from Freedom

Times of emergency (which is most times) demands careful thought, natural expression and freedom to think and act. Yet, at these moments,Post Vietnam freedom becomes limited. A tendency to autocratic control of expression, followed by an almost sadistic need to inflict damage upon others and a masochistic urge to allow damage to be inflicted on the self, often occur. Destructiveness of home life and foreign populations by military adventures are easily accepted by a public that automatically conforms..
.
http://www.alternativeinsight.com/Escape_from_freedom.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/2162/frommauth.html
http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=jaa.029.0195a

This link below is about the psychology of cult leaders, but neocon wannabe dictators like Bush and the neocons this might as well be the same thing.The same dynamics are there.

To recapitulate, from a psychoanalytic perspective, the cult leader unconsciously experiences his dependency needs as so deeply shameful that a delusion of omnipotence is developed to ward off the toxic shame. It is urgent to the pathological narcissist, who knows unconsciously that he is susceptible to extreme mortification (the sense of "death" by shame), that this delusion of omnipotence be sustained. Manic defenses help sustain the delusion, but in addition, followers must be seduced and controlled so that the loathsome dependence can be externalized, located in others and thereby made controllable. The leader can then express his unconscious self-loathing through his "compassion" (often thinly disguised contempt) for his followers’ weakness. Manically proclaiming his own perfection, the leader creates a program of "purification" for the follower. By enlisting the follower to hold the shame that he projects and evacuates from his own psyche, the cult leader rids himself of all shame, becoming, in effect, "shameless."

http://www.danielshawlcsw.com/traumatic_abuse.htm

And rich sociopaths like Bush who believe they can do no wrong, to maintain that delusion of certainty use the "services" of a madam as a tool to act out a self "purification ritual' through S/M"games" or S/M role playing. We shouldn't be shocked.. alot of rich powerful people are very narcissistic and sociopathic and have very warped personalities.And they lead"secret lives" because the face they present to the public is totally FAKE.
They often are products of childhood S/M rituals their parents acted out on them.
___________________________________________________________________

They make up what Eisner refers to when she writes of the body-as-state in Fritz Lang’s 1926 Metropolis as an ‘architecturalized’ crowd (1): agglomerated bodies used as building blocks of pyramidal empire.

Like art and politics combined, the physical body has a theatre and theory that is essential in the re transformation of of reality. The body is, according to Michel Foucault, endowed with political power: it has a “political economy – its forces, their utility, their docility, their distribution and their submission.” (2) The greatest irony of the part that the human body plays in the building of totalitarianism is the crucial importance the insignificant and anonymous crowd has in the total control by the elite. Even in its most submissive state, the human body has a resource of power that is necessary to be extracted; without the possession, exploitation and complete colonization of millions of individual anonymous bodies, the elite have no power base to build upon. This is the secret of the powerful/powerless relationship: masochism is needed to realize sadism as sadism validates the masochistic experience; one is not real without the other. In a totalitarian society, the body must be reduced to essential matter and melded into the very marrow of the New State, which is imbued with the personality of the Leader.

http://www.thefilmjournal.com/issue11/triumphofthewill.html
___________________________________________________________________
Today, when "emancipation is complete Freud and Machiavelli have reached the outer suburbs," the pulp thriller is "a daydream appropriate to a totalitarian age . . . a distilled version of the modern political scene, in which such things as mass bombings of civilians . . . torture to obtain confessions . . . execution without trial . . . drownings in cesspools, systematic falsification of records and statistics . . . bribery quisling ism are normal and morally neutral, even admirable when they are done in a large and bold way." Power, and its high priest, the bully, are becoming democratic idols.

"When sexuality is prevented form attaining natural gratification, owing to the process of sexual repression, what happens is that it seeks various kinds of substitute gratification. Thus, for instance, natural aggression is distorted into brutal sadism, which constitutes an essential part of the mass-psychological basis of those imperialist wars that are instigated by a few. To give another instance: from the point of view of mass psychology, the effect of militarism is based essentially on a libidinous mechanism. The sexual effect of a uniform, the erotically provocative effect of rhythmically executed goose-stepping (a German practice in particular-McKinney), the exhibitionist nature of militarist procedures, have been more practically comprehended by a salesgirl or average secretary than by our most erudite politicians." (Wilhelm Reich, The Mass Psychology of Fascism, Third Edition, p. 31 and 32)
http://mosquito-blog.blogspot.com/search/label/fascism

Sickness of leaders and needing a leader
http://www.nomorefakenews.com/archives/archiveview.php?key=367
_________________________________________________________________________


A study of a masochist achierver Mel Gibson.

Mel Gibson, very much the infantile outcome of stunted personal development, engages in magical thinking. He feels omnipotent, that there is nothing he could’t do or achieve if only he sets his mind to it. He feels omniscient - he rarely admits to ignorance and regards his intuitions and intellect as founts of objective data.

Thus, masochists are haughtily convinced that introspection is a more important and more efficient (not to mention easier to accomplish) method of obtaining knowledge than the systematic study of outside sources of information in accordance with strict and tedious curricula. Masochists are “inspired” and they despise hamstrung technocrats

to some extent, they feel omnipresent because they are either famous or about to become famous or because their product is selling or is being manufactured globally. Deeply immersed in their delusions of grandeur, they firmly believe that their acts have - or will have - a great influence not only on their firm, but also on their country, or even on Mankind. Having mastered the manipulation of their human environment - they are convinced that they will always “get away with it”. They develop hubris and a false sense of immunity.

Masochistic immunity is the (erroneous) feeling, harbored by Mel Gibson, that he is impervious to the consequences of his actions, that he will never be effected by the results of his own decisions, opinions, beliefs, deeds and misdeeds, acts, inaction, or membership of certain groups, that he is above reproach and punishment, that, magically, he is protected and will miraculously be saved at the last moment. Hence the audacity, simplicity, and transparency of some of the fraud and corporate looting in the 1990’s. Masochists rarely bother to cover their traces, so great is their disdain and conviction that they are above mortal laws and wherewithal. What are the sources of this unrealistic appraisal of situations and events?

The false self is a childish response to abuse and trauma. Abuse is not limited to sexual molestation or beatings. Smothering, doting, pampering, over-indulgence, treating the child as an extension of the parent, not respecting the child’s boundaries, and burdening the child with excessive expectations are also forms of abuse.
http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/001210.shtml

_____________________________________________________________________
Indeed, my conclusion from a lifetime of study of the history of childhood is that society is founded upon the abuse of children, and that the further back in history one studies the subject the more likely children are to have been abused and neglected. Just as family therapists today find that child abuse often functions to hold families together as a way of solving their emotional problems, so, too, the routine assault, torture and domination of children has been society's most effective instrument of collective emotional homeostasis. Most historical families once practiced infanticide, incest, beating and mutilation of their children to relieve(parental) anxieties. We continue today to arrange the killing, maiming, molestation and starvation of our children through our military, social and economic institutions.

This is why domination and violence in history has such continuity: betrayal and abuse of children has been a consistent human trait since our species began. Each generation begins anew with fresh, eager, trusting faces of babies, ready to love and create a new world. And each generation of parents tortures, abuses, neglects and dominates its children until they become emotionally crippled adults who repeat in nearly exact detail the social violence and domination that existed in previous decades. Should a minority of parents decrease the amount of abuse and neglect of its children a bit and begin to provide somewhat more secure, loving early years that allow a bit more freedom and independence, history soon begins to move in surprising new directions and society changes in innovative ways. History needn't repeat itself; only the traumas demand repetition.133
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/eln05_psychogenic.html

On Bush's childhood...
She was the main authority-figure in the home. Jeb describes it as having been, "A kind of matriarchy... when we were growing up, dad wasn't at home. Mom was the one to hand out the goodies and the discipline." A childhood friend recalls that,"She was the one who instilled fear", while Bush put it like this: "Every mother has her own style. Mine was a little like an army drill sergeant's... my mother's always been a very outspoken person who vents very well - she'll just let rip if she's got something on her mind." According to his uncle, the "letting rip" often included slaps and hits. Countless studies show that boys with such mothers are at much higher risk of becoming wild, alcoholic or antisocial.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00.html

Abuse and psychopathy it all comes full circle...And if you peel back the mask of respectability and appropriate and "normal" in the person called a "leader" or "Community pillar" in the"circles" of Wealth and power, you see the disgusting truth, of who these ambuitious sociopaths are.Found out through the sloppy covering up of thier "liaisons", thier fetishes and piccadilloes and crimes,these many addictions driven by thier distorted personalities and covered up by leading dual lives and losts of cronies covering thier backs ,a media that looks the other way,and lots of skilled Public perception management teams to lie for them,and call bad deeds against the people these masochistic leaders do,good things..
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think it's a little simpler than that
Men at the pinnacle of power are fawned over and adored wherever they go. If they are perfect shits, they pick perfect audiences and their own people tend to shield them from reality.

They seek humiliation because that's what they are missing. They are so used to nonstop adoration that it's become flat and stale. The only way they can experience it anew is to reacquaint themselves with its opposite.

Wives and girlfriends usually view that sort of thing as nuts. "You want me to do WHAT to you when you're in the bathtub naked and wanking?"

Enter the highly paid and highly accomodating professional sex worker.
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DawnIsis Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I gotta object to "Wives and girlfriends usually view this sorta thing as nuts"
It seems to me you are placing the "blame" on women if they choose not to participate in their partners fetishes.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting your meaning? Seems like it could also be interpreted as "if wives and girlfriends would only do as their partner instructs they wouldn't have to frequent prostitutes?"

I don't think their is ANYTHING a female can do to make a man be "faithful" and I resent any implication of the sort.

People either cheat or they don't. They either stand by their mate completely or selfishly look elsewhere when they feel their needs aren't being met sufficiently. No one can please their partner 100% of the time.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. No implication meant
I am speaking about powerful people and their compulsions.
The games and stuff they do to act out a diseased personality.

For me,I think S/M is a sickness,caused by trauma. Alot of people have been traumatized in this culture.And when abuse gets normalized that does not make it hurt any less,or harm any less you know.
Disagree with my thoughts on this all you want.You are not going to change my stance.

I have seen this weird masochistic kind of acting out in myself years ago and when I found the real source of where the desire to cut my arms up came from (a form of self mutilation some masochists do) I no longer was driven to cut my skin to suppress overwhelming emotions from remembering what sadistic adults did to me as a kid that I blamed myself for for years because I had to to survive in an abusive home and depend on parents who were abusive to take care of me.And I was hiding the cuts,many masochists hide their marks too,because it is a way of wearing shame and purging it,and that shame is not our own until we repeat the cycle on the flesh of another person .Trauma and abuse even if it's declared"loving" still hurts and it is transmitted through generations of people re enacting it on each other and never quite getting to the root of why they want it..

I think love should not hurt me.I think kindness cannot be kind with a stinging whip,and threat of hurt.
And likewise true democracy cannot be forced by the barrel of a gun.

Every abusive parent says they beat their children because they love them, and want them to be good or"strong"and that is a most evil lie to dump onto a child..
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DawnIsis Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I was responding to Warpy I think your post is excellent undergroundpanther
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Oh Ok
Edited on Mon Apr-30-07 04:39 PM by undergroundpanther
I wasn't sure. Thanks for telling me I was responding to the wrong person.
You know all the defenders of barriers to intimacy out there might get stirred up at a post like this ,I don't want this thread to be sidetracked into defending S/M or fetishism because fetishists say they like it and want to defend their particular barriers to intimacy from being questioned.

Thank you DawnIsis.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Clearly, the operative word is "usually."
That doesn't mean "always."
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DawnIsis Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I don't follow your logic
my objection wasn't to the use of the word usually but to the implication that somehow a wife or spouse could be to blame for infidelity if she refuses to degrade herself to "serve" her mate's needs.

No one is responsible for cheating except the cheater. If a person decides their mate can't meet their needs the right thing to do is end the relationship with dignity and honesty not to engage in deception and lies.

A woman should never degrade herself to keep a man, that places the man's needs above her own.

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Fetishism is degrading to relation
Edited on Mon Apr-30-07 04:35 PM by undergroundpanther
Love between people as I know it is about seeking ever deeper intimacy. It's not selfish,or in your own mind kind of thing.It's not a put on,or a role you play and throw away later when the sex is over..

A relationship is about persons sharing the most beautiful and most vulnerable things,with each other, all the secrets,hopes and emotions of the heart,a touching of spirits,building each other up,by caring how the others feel being interested in what they think,and into what they do and a sharing of these parts,A touch from love acts tenderly careful,respectful showing the person you love they are precious to you,sacred even.

Relationships require keeping mutual respect of each others sacred person-hood strong,honesty and genuineness without barriers or abuse.A relationship cannot exist without respecting a partners consent.A person can relate with you,an object or fantasy or photo unlike a person cannot relate back to you as a real person can.

To me True passion is a thing that is meant to be SHARED with the other person,a gift from your heart to be, given away...to another's open heart in an act of beauty(could be something like art or music) or love as an invitation to know and share more of what we are with each other..Relationships are about Relating.


Tell me, where does whipping a person with a quirt until they have red welts all over their butt fit into what I described above??
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Fetishism and avoiding intimacy
I was taken aback when my ex wanted to "play with my feet" and to wrap him in cellophane.Why Because I can love someone without doing these things.I think he asked me to do these things because he saw it in porn and he was acting out a fantasy in his head without relating to me as a person..It was kinda insulting.
I did for him, but to me it was uncomfortable,it took me out of the relationship,made it feel like he preferred to put a saran wrap barrier between us to avoid intimacy ,it made me feel revulsion twords him and it was not enjoyable for me.

And I left him about a year after that because he was so emotionally distant and self absorbed..why bother staying with someone if all you are is a piece of furniture or a maid to clean up the house?

I think fetishism separates sex from the emotional connection of person to person intimacy .

I would never date another fetishist.If some person I like tells me he likes some fetish he's gonna be dumped. I don't want to find myself trying to relate to someone obsessed with fucking with shoes because I don't want to play with shoes as if they were a human being,I don't want to date anybody in love with smearing himself with whipped cream.Or asks me to pee on him or beat him up..I want someone who wants to relate to me as a person in an intimate emotionally deep connection I want the love felt between us to be sufficient in of itself.

I want to be loved more than settle for a partner being in love with a picture of sex on a screen,while I sit there like a bump on a pickle while he plays with his own imagination to avoid risking real intimacy with a human being. I am disgusted by the subtle dehumanizing effect of fetishism,on my feelings be it shoes, whipped cream feet,or saran wrap..
Fetishes interfere with real intimacy at least for me. I am a person and I do not want to be made second fiddle to an OBJECT, PAIN or ABUSIVENESS in a partner who wants to avoid relating to me.
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quispquake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent Post
Kicked & Recommended...Hope you don't mind, I grabbed the George Orwell quote for my signature...hadn't heard that one before, and that really summed these sociopaths well in my opinion...

In my own 'reality tunnel' I've never been able to understand how people can use & discard other human beings (soldiers, ANYONE that disses them or goes against their particular views) like the Bush administration can...thanks for giving me a lot to think about :)
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DawnIsis Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think your post is very informative and helps explain why
politicians and other public figures do such obviously stupid sexual things without regards to the consequences.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think they go to madams ...
Edited on Mon Apr-30-07 03:49 PM by HamdenRice
because they perceive it to be fun and they can afford it. You can do a search and learn a lot about "leather" and s/m communities, and they don't seem to all be driven by deep psychological pathologies, as much as by their desires.

BTW, the OP seems to be conflating "madam" and the term, "mistress". A madam is the female proprietor of a prostitution business, which may include a S/M prostitution business. A "mistress" has two completely different meanings -- (1) the girlfriend of a married man and (2) a dominatrix. The Washington "madam" appears to be the proprietess of a prostitution business, but it isn't clear that she is a dominatrix or ran a professional domination business; the evidence that was presented against her shows that she went to great lengths to train her escorts how to avoid arrest, which would probably not be necessary if she was running a domination business. The business may have been described in terms of erotic "games" in its advertising merely to avoid law enforcement scrutiny, because prostitution is illegal and non-sexual, professional domination isn't.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Did you ever question
Edited on Mon Apr-30-07 05:17 PM by undergroundpanther
because they perceive it to be fun and they can afford it. You can do a search and learn a lot about "leather" and s/m communities, and they don't seem to all be driven by deep psychological pathologies, as much as by their desires.


Ok Where do these fetishistic Desires come from? Did you ever ask yourself that question?.

Do birds have a thang for leather?
To cats absolutely need to have spandex suits on to have sex?
Also..I don't care how much training these Dom's go through..I bet she can numb away plenty of bad memories too.
I don't think being trained to torture a masochist is"fun".
Nor is being whipped,humiliated, peed on or restrained in leather straps..I had enough S/M shit from bullies in school,from my sadistic asshole father, in the mental hospital and I did NOT enjoy ANY of it. I do not desire it at all.I cannot stand for anyone to restrain me or attempt to. Restraints send me into an automatic fight response. I can't stand bullies or seeing others or being abused or humiliated at all. My adverse childhood did not produce a fetish for abuse in me..Because my desires to escape fight or kill the asshole were not misdirected onto something else or objectified.
But I cut my arms for a time,because I misplaced the blame for the perpetrators choices to harm me onto myself as a little kid. I had to realize what happened to me back than was NOT MY FAULT. Than once I understood the origins of that desire was misplaces into carving up my skin I no longer are driven to cut.

I asked someone I know who has a pee fetish where it came from I was curious to the origins of that desire.

I was told about his walking home after school and the bullying boys in his neighborhood would rush ahead ,climb trees along the path and pee on the other kids from the trees. This reminded me of when I used to be a Satanist Anton Lavey wrote about this crystallization process of sometimes negative or upsetting childhood memories that have a strong sexual component that morph as a person grows up into a fetishistic type of desire.

Fetishes could possibly be the result of an unpleasant childhood situation (getting peed on by bullies as you walked home in my friends case) happening mixed with a sexually charged atmosphere.(homo erotic) This theory of Anton Lavey's was confirmed while asking my friend where his fetish came from and what he thought was the origins of his fetishistic desire.
But one thing Anton fails to say is the affect of the original crystallizing moment..of not having.
My friend could not send the pee raining on him back into the faces of the guys emptying their bladders on him laughing at him and the other kids like assholes.
It was a powerless humiliating situation. One that would anger me to want to knock the bullies out of the trees with big rocks aimed at vulnerable points of their anatomy.
But he couldn't do that.Because they'd get him later.

So what did he do with that mixed up situation ? He identified with the bullies in the tree , it was erotic but not all that fun when he was a kid he said.

So years later he gets into water-sports, to somehow manage the fixation he has on that incident of not having power,but still feeling a sexual thing going on,a bad eroticized event that produced mixed feelings into something he could manage in a "scene".


An unpleasant but sexually charged incident in childhood becomes commodity of sorts ,a desire of what one cannot have back than into something you can get now..so a fetish object becomes a thing desired for to substitute for what the original maybe long forgotten or suppressed possibly displaced desire was?

_____________________________________________________________

Rather than subordinate these subject-object relations and the constellation of emergent psycho-social phenomenon to instrumental outcomes, our research points to the converse possibility that instrumentality may be subsumed by the less tangible but extraordinarily powerful realm of desire and, through the 'conquest' of objects, fetish. Indeed, instrumentality itself may be considered the arbitrary instrument of fetish.

This brings us to our second point. In pursuing an analysis of fetishism in order to better understand ICT use, we bring affect into focus in a way that disrupts our explanatory predilection for direct cause-effect relationships. Since fetishised desire works emotional affects through and into its objects, the locus of pain or (dis)satisfaction is displaced, projected elsewhere, and objectified.
http://journal.fibreculture.org/issue9/issue9_arnold_gibbs_shepherd.html

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. They used to talk that way about gays and lesbians
I hear and recognize that fetishism is extremely unpleasant for you because of your past history of abuse, and the fact that a partner tried to force you to engage in it. But I think the key phrase in your analysis is: "I did NOT enjoy ANY of it. I do not desire it at all.I cannot stand for anyone to restrain me or attempt to. "

That does not mean that every one else cannot enjoy it.

Some people like long hair. Some people like legs. Some people like buts. I suppose if you are a long hair lover, and your partner isn't into it, you might feel objectified by his/her focus on hair. But if a long hair lover gets together with someone who loved to have his/her hair admired, then there's a match, and their focus on one partner's long hair might actually make them feel a closer bond.

I've read a number of blogs, journals and boards involving committed couples who enjoy various non-traditional relationships, and the funny thing about them is that when they speculate where their desires come from, they usually say they don't know.

So perhaps if one's long hair fetish comes from having one's hair pulled in school, it is rooted in pain. But if one's long hair fetish comes from having loved having long hair as a child, it might be a source of comfort.

In psycho-analyzing sexual preferences, one size does not fit all. Keep in mind that for decades, from the beginning of Freudianism until the 1970s, all gays and lesbians were thought by the profession to be the produce of abuse, bad parenting or genetic disease. Most people now believe otherwise.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-01-07 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Gay and lesbian is an Orientation
Fetishism is displaced desire. Desire sublimated.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. Given the circumstances we are in now...
Perhaps we do have to ask why we as a society (or a large number of us) seem to support these types of twisted (so-called) leaders. There is DEFINITELY an air of sado-masochism about this relationship.

So why do we do it? And how do we stop the cycle? Certainly not by just calling it "politics."

-------------

The OP writes:
'And when we citizens follow a masochistic leader or accept leadership and submit to said leader's will even when he makes laws and policies that HURT us and some of us still insist he is a good person and go so far as to give him a 'mandate' and we enable him to decide for us, we are permitting him to act out his sickness through public office and doing private scandals. In effect WE are co-playing a role in an S/M game, keeping a very destructive re-traumatizing emotional/social sickness in ourselves in our society and it the 'leaderships' acted out on a huge scale continuing. And playing these "roles" in this "dream" of our "leaders" is KILLING us.'

I tend to agree with this view of our social sickness, ie. that Americans are somewhat masochistic in general. It's not far-fetched, when you think about it.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Thank you
I think the way to stop it is to stop the whole power GAME. Stop playing Make Believe about the power game. Stop making excuses for perpretrators and blaming the victims and shooting the messengers saying stuff we would rather not discuss because what is said makes you feel guilty or ashamed or offended or scared. We MUST Stop all child abuse.This includes Spanking. A boss spanking a coworker for insulting him would be illegal so spanking a child should be illgal also,for kids are human beings too. Adults need to learn how to BOND howw to defy authority,and to find what matters most inside.

Stop the domination and objectification of women kids anyone,and to refuse to submit to bullies or authority intimidaton.Guard your own consent from manipulation.. Hold tight onto your own inner locus of control,respect your OWN sacred personhood and everyone elses and the right to BE,and do not misplace anger.Direct your anger at the actual persons doing the harm, humiliating bullying or treating you bad. No war could ever happen if people directed thier anger only at WHO invoked it.Do not bystand when someone else is being hurt in danger or humiliated stand up as best as you can. Do Anything to help the person being targeted and condemn the bully or abusive assholes.We need to stop seeing relationships we make in this world as a zero sum game or S/M thing.We need to stop acting so damn colonialized and imposing domestication on our kids and co inhabitants here.
We need to remember how to be wild again http://drbeetle.homestead.com/wildness.html
http://www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/nature.htm
(in those links you might begin to understand why I am a Panther and call myself one ,wild still ;))

We would not be in an abusive culture if we didn't tolerate and excuse the acts of abusive people so much.None of this nasty state of affairs occured in a vaccuum. Each of us have changes to make.And some unwiling to change because they are sociopaths narcissists and authoritarians need to be contained or elimitated from interacting with people without these personality types so they cannot continue playing thier domination games and abuse of humanity.

This is a link to a free E book.(damn good one but emotionally painful ) but I think it would give you indepth answers to your questions .
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/contents.htm

More sites
http://ponerology.blogspot.com/
http://www.usyd.edu.au/su/social/elias/confpap/wouters1.html

.
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