Maybe health insurance IS the problem.

[dkf]

Health insurance sucks such a large amount of money from us on a regular basis that it enables crazy ridiculous payments that may have no relation to the cost of the product. If everyone had to pay for a service out of pocket would any procedure be that expensive?

I say no. Doctors would charge reasonable fees or they would have no patients.

[katmondoo]

1. I had Pneumonia, was in the hospital 3 weeks, cost $100,00.00

without insurance I would be living in a tent today. This was ten years ago, today I don't know what the cost would be. Maybe today I would be in a tent.

[BeFree]

2. Y'know what?

First, I am glad you made it.

Second, the insurance companies are going broke because of such big expenses.

Third, costs must come down if the house of cards is to stay standing.

[aaronbav]

6. How can you say Health Insurance companies are going broke

while at the same time said companies just announced RECORD PROFITS????

The ONLY thing GOING BROKE are the PEOPLE these evil, vile bastards are gouging!

FUCK THE HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES. THEY SHOULD BE OUTLAWED!

[BeFree]

11. How?

Because they paid out $100,000 dollars for one patient and received far less than that from the patient. The numbers lead to going broke. Medicare is going broke and it is honest.

The executives of the companies are crooks. And it is a house of cards.
It is a huge frikkin mess. For profit insurance should be outlawed.

And, like highways, water and sewer, those who use it the most should pay the most, but everyone should pay in. And then we act to drive down the costs. Easy and simple. <grin>

[Oregone]

13. Sometimes a single person walks out of a casino with a huge check

Does that mean the casino is going broke? Or does that just indicate that they probably ripped off hundreds of people to cover the loss on that one winner, and still had enough to make a profit?

Use your head. These people aren't idiots. Insurance companies collect FAR, FAR more than they ever pay out using very clever formulas and history

[BeFree]

21. Then why..

...is medicare going broke?

The 'boomers' are getting old. The numbers of 'boomers' about to need health care is going to break the bank. Imagine in your casino that everyone playing that night won a jackpot. That's what is about to happen.

The executives are grabbing all they can before it collapses.

Like you say:"...they probably ripped off hundreds of people..."
Well, duh, that's how insurance works. It really is socialism in capitalists' clothing, and with the crooks as shepherds the flock is getting goosed.

[Oregone]

24. Because its a political football

And its not funded like a private insurance company, charging variable premiums according to the calculated risk of each separate pool.

Trust me. These people have their shit straight. After disbursements, they will have collected enough directly from the recipients to make a profit. They continue to do so.

[BeFree]

27. Of course

That's why premiums are going through the roof. They either raise premiums or it falls flat. IOW, at present rates, they are going broke. Why you can't add the numbers up and see that fact... I dunno.

Same with medicare. The outgo is higher than the inflow.

The hard part of taming this is how to reduce health care costs. Any ideas?

[Oregone]

33. "Why you can't add the numbers up and see that fact"

Why can't you understand that their ability to make record profits indicates that they aren't going broke at all.

Yes, they will continue to raise rates to account for inflation, market driven increases, and to just generally test what type of profits the market will bear. Its generally true with any industry.

[BeFree]

37. Yep

And GM went broke. Who could have imagined 10 years ago that GM would go broke?

Well, I could. Because I can add up the numbers.

Capitalism, in general is going broke. That's why we need to get capitalism out of health care, cuz it ain't gonna stand much longer, and there are millions of people invested in it, who believe in it, and are counting on it.

[PHIMG]

51. Medicare is not "going broke"

Every insurer in the country would be bankrupt by now if it took an act of congress to raise thier premiums. The problem is not Medicare. The problem is Republicans and Consevadems who want Medicare to fail so they can oursource it to the private insurers and get more fat $4800 checks from that industry.

Don't repeat right-wing myths. Medicare is not going broke. Medicare needs a premium increase. The best way to do this is get everyone into Medicare so everyone feels good about paying into it rather than not seeing the benefits until age 65.

[glinda]

25. I second that.

[dkf]

4. The question is would they charge that much if nobody had insurance and had to pay that cost

Out of pocket.

[abluelady]

8. Actually They Might Charge More

I had a surgery and the hospital messed up and said I was responsible for the bill. It was an outpatient procedure and I was charged $14,000+ from the hospital. I disputed it and insurance did pay. Their payment was $4,000+. The providers have worked out what they consider reasonable rates with the insuance companies. Why won’t they do that for us?

[dkf]

12. Which goes back to the randomness of pricing and the lack of relation to the cost.

If nobody had insurance and everyone got charged the full amount people would want full disclosure before procedures.

[Coyote_Bandit]

17. In mnay states there are laws

that require health care providers to charge everyone the same. The Wall Street Journal did a series of front page articles about the billing practices of health care providers a few years back documenting the wide differences in charges for the same procedures levied by the same providers depending on the manner of payment expected from the patient. The real question is why the fuckers entrusted with enforcing the laws are not doing so.

[MindPilot]

3. My first reaction is "that is the 'well, duh!' comment of the day".

But you are right. We do need to question the fundamental assumption that health is something with a momentary value that needs to be insured like a house or a car. Clearly it is not and the US remains the only industrialized nation that allows for-profit brokering of health care.

The reality is I think most Americans are too stupid to get that health insurance companies are just pimps, necessary to neither the provider or the consumer.

How many politicians have the guts to question a health insurance company's "right to exist"? Answer: Way less than zero.

[liberal N proud]

5. Take the profit out of the Health Insurance industry and prices will come down.

Or at the very least, stop rising.

Greed is making decisions in treatment not need to cure.

[dkf]

9. But what about the cost of the services?

Are those appropriate?

When we throw a 16th of our GDP into a nice juicy pot that is sitting there won't providers of services increase costs to the point where they get what they can of it?

[liberal N proud]

15. Why are those cost what they are?

Because those who have insurance have to pay for those who do not.

If a doctor gets paid for every patient he/she sees, do they need to charge those who do pay as much to cover the bills?

[glinda]

26. BCBS in MN is a non-profit and I can barely afford my monthly premiums. Went up 67% in one year.

[liberal N proud]

40. But the uninsured are still in that cost structure

The medical industry charges those who have insurance more to cover those who do not have insurance but still get treated.

[glinda]

45. call me unsympathetic, selfish, "lucky I have Insurance" whatever you want. I have no

faith that even with the uninsured covered that the money has to come from somewhere. I am near having to drop my health insurance. We barely can make our utility bills right now.We are in deep financial trouble. Will they ask me to pay to cover? Or will they give me a break also? We are sinking.
Insurance Companies will still raise rates. They are a business. How many times does one have to say this? They are a business not some "great" be all end all saving grace or caring organization.

[liberal N proud]

47. Fortunate is what I would call you

Fortunate that you can afford insurance or fortunate enough to work where it is paid.

Selfish too.

[glinda]

49. unemployed and unable to afford my surgery and handicapped & do not fall under handicapped quideline

So thanks for understanding. Try re-reading what I said earlier. You might see that I am advocating for help for all. But nooooooo.... everytime a post is made like this, I expect someone to say something that is narrow.
The point is that unless one is wealthy or has an employer that covers well, forget it.

[Warpy]

7. And people would be bankrupted by any serious illness

because there's just no way to pay out of pocket for a year of surgery, radiation and chemotherapy or a kidney transplant or wanting to keep your premature baby alive. That's why health insurance developed in the first place, to protect us from bankruptcy over catastrophic costs.

The insurance companies wrote me off in 1987, either offering me insurance at rates I couldn't possibly pay or, for the last 10 years, refusing to write it at all. It's a rotten way to have to live and I wouldn't curse anyone else with it, not even Republicans (although they could use the education). Living in terror of something you can't pay to fix is no way to live.

[dkf]

14. Well if they can't find a way to make it affordable then they are out of a job too.

No patients no paycheck.

[Warpy]

23. Some things, by their very nature, will not be affordable

especially for the working class. Needing 20 trained professionals around the clock to provide care and support to save a life is simply not going to be affordable, not even in your dream world.

[dkf]

32. If you had put every dollar expended on health insurance premiums in a

Tax advantaged account you probably could pay for it.

[Warpy]

35. If you put every premium dollar into a pool, you could pay for it at 20

when you're likely to have that premature infant you want to survive.

Oh wait! That's insurance!

[dkf]

41. But if you don't spend it it is yours. Major difference.

[Warpy]

42. Honey, not if it goes into a pool.

I think you need to do some reading.

[dkf]

46. Exactly. If you save all the premiums you would have paid in your own acciunt

Then it doesn't go into a pool and it is yours.

[Oregone]

16. They already are bankrupted even with insurance

[Edweird]

10. It is the problem.

[NNN0LHI]

18. My employer is self-insured and we are still paying more and getting less so I don't know?

My employer just hires Blue Cross to process the claims. So I think the actual cost of services must be part of the problem too.

Don

[Skidmore]

19. Health insurance used as a bargaining chip for wages is even more

of a problem. Real reform would remove health insurance from being employment based and take away the ability of the insurers to double-dip from the employer and the employee. Your health care should not be brokered between the employer and unions and the insurers. Unions should be responsible for negotiating workplace safety, fair work rules, and fair wages. Employers should be held accountable for ensuring that these are part of the work environment they provide. Right now, particularly in this time of high employment, millions are placed outside of that cozy little arrangement. Access to basic health care should not be contingent upon employment.

[NNN0LHI]

31. But most of us realize by now that there will be no single payer type program

The best we are going to do is get a lot of people covered with a basic plan who aren't covered now. Which I consider a good thing.

There would have never been any vision or dental benefits that a union can negotiate. Even with single payer we wouldn't have gotten that. Best we could have hoped for would have been a basic medical plan like Medicare.

So getting unionized and using collective bargaining to get good medical coverage is still probably everyone best option.

Thats obviously not going to change anytime soon.

Don

[AllyCat]

20. Yes, it IS the problem.

One of my pet peeves is the nonsense about which hospital people can use. Our city has two newborn ICUs at competing hospitals. We'll have mothers come in covered by one insurance, then have to have the baby needing NICU care transferred once stable down the street to the other facility because the baby will be covered by another insurance. Insanity.

The hospital down the street is a catholic hospital. So if the mother makes the agonizing decision to prematurely deliver a non-viable fetus, or has an ectopic pregnancy...she better hope her insurance works at our facility as the one down the street won't help her.

There are so many stories...but these are just a few of the types I see in my work. And the number on state aid is increasing (which frankly, I don't have a problem with, but the coverage is not as good because of numerous snafus in the law).

[unblock]

22. the real problem is the insane price of catastrophic care, which creates the need for insurance

given that long term cancer care can easily run into six or even seven figures, people feel the have to have insurance. i know that many young people feel immortal and don't worry about cancer at the moment, but i do think most people feel that they WILL get cancer eventually if they live long enough. so while 20-somethings might not feel the need for insurance, eventually they will.

but the need for insurance to cover the insane price of cancer care does, indeed, mean that many people don't pay the full cost of medical care in general, for things that have nothing to do with cancer care.

so now, even though the 17 year patent on imitrex has expired, it and its competing medications, including a generic version, still go for more than $30 PER DOSE. as bad as migraines are, i can't imagine people paying that much if they had to pay full fare.


of course, the flip side of this is that in order for people to drive prices down, they have to reduce demand. i.e., let prices force them to deny themselves medical care. as in this case, i would have to decide to endure a migraine without treatment, at least on occassion, and wait for prices to fall. for some "optional" medical care this it is certainly possible to delay or pass on it altogether, but most medical care is not like that.

demand is rather inflexible, and the pricing reflects this. insurance makes the problem worse, but demand being inflexible is at the root of the problem.

[dkf]

28. Maybe it's not the catasthophic care but the end of life care that is excessive and

Futile. If we allowed hospice care in the home vs what we have now at out of pocket cost there would be different choices made.

[unblock]

43. either way there's a big distortion. we let certain low-odds or poor-outcome scenarios

dictate the price of mor routine care -- to the point where people forgo preventative care, leading to even more problems!

[FarCenter]

29. The problem is that "health insurance" had become "prepaid health care"

Insurance should cover randomly occuring, unexpected health care expenses that are too large for the family to budget for.

The problem is that health insurance now covers all kinds of routinely occuring, predictable health care expenses that are small and should be paid for out of the family budget.

Running all of these routine health care expenses through the administrative overhead of the health insurance claims system significantly increases overhead, fraud, and profit skimming by all of the involved parties.

[Snarkoleptic]

30. The bottom line is that for-profit health insurance should be illegal.

They add no value to our healthcare system and do nothing more than add paperwork while siphoning off money that should be used for care.

[Trillo]

34. So, what you're saying is that the existence of Insurance used to pay

for health care created a financial bubble in retail medical prices. This bubble then was much like an electronic feedback loop, with higher medical prices creating a need for higher insurance premiums, and with higher insurance prices creating incentives for higher medical prices.

One thing I'd worry about would be a short term effect than some doctors would just call it quits, because some are in it for the money. So there could be a shortage of doctors in a shorter timeframe window, perhaps a generation or two. If so, such a shortage would seem to decrease medical-services supply, while demand would stay relatively constant, and that doesn't indicate lower retail prices.

[SlingBlade]

36. Single Payer Medicare for ALL is the ONLY true form

of sustainable HCR.
Don't let Rahm and the Insurance Lobby kill it. This is our only chance
With a 70 Billion Dollar Windfall anticipated from the current HCR Bill now
on the table, They are foaming at the mouths and will run over ANYONE to get it.

Don't ask but TELL them, And tell them we will hold them accountable.

Call, Write, Fax and E-mail OUR Representatives
Now, Today and tomorrow and everyday that remains
Tell them that we demand Single Payer Medicare for all, NOW, Not ten years from now.
Tell them that you don't support passing this monstrosity now with the promise of a Fix later
Don't fall for it.

Contact the White House
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact

Call the White House
[phone]

Call, Write, Fax and E-mail your Representatives, House and Senate
http://www.contactingthecongress.org /

K & R

[patrice]

38. HC Ins Mandate, without Public Option IS Wall Street Bailout 1.2

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20100220/BUSINESS01/2200311/Health+insurers++outlook+uncertain

And Wall Street Bailout 2.0 is on the horizon.

[NuttyFluffers]

39. insurance for a staple of life is another form of taxation. taxation w/o representation...

i strongly believe that only the sovereign state has the ability for taxation, and that any other institution caught doing so is muscling in on the gov'ts territory.

[Flaneur]

44. Socialized medicine now. Fuck those insurance company parasites.

They ought to be expropriated.

[Greyhound]

48. Of course not, that's how the insurance industry took over the medical profession.

Before insurance doctors were a part of the community, the de facto commons that allowed this nation to prosper in spite of the parasitic version of capitalism that we practice. Doctors had prices (they couldn't do nearly as much, of course) but care was always given and the poor paid what they could and doctors were taken care of by the community because it was in everyone's interests to keep them happy.

The insurance industry says "if you take care of the people we send you, we will pay you more", and from then on health care was doomed.

We've just seen it happen to the Chiropractors over the last 20 years, nothing changes but the details.

[Festivito]

50. Maybe! That's funny. ...of course it is the problem. DUH! /nt