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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:16 PM
Original message
Ten Commandments display will get high court review
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 09:19 PM by usregimechange


NORMAN — The U.S. Supreme Court is scheduled next week to consider the case involving a Ten Commandments monument on Haskell County Courthouse property in Stigler, but the legal discussion got a head start Friday at the University of Oklahoma.

Political science professor emeritus Peter Irons, of the University of California at San Diego, and law professor Thomas Berg, of the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, discussed legal opinions on the separation of church and state during "Signs of the Times: The First Amendment and Religious Freedom.” A panel discussion followed.

"The Supreme Court is scheduled to consider the petition at its conference on Feb. 19,” Irons wrote of Green v. Haskell County in his outline, "with the outcome hard to predict.”

The monument with the Ten Commandments was erected in 2004 outside the Haskell County Courthouse. Haskell County resident James Green and the American Civil Liberties Union filed suit the next year to remove it, claiming the monument violated the First Amendment separation of church and state.

Irons said the monument is unconstitutional because the Ten Commandments are a religious text, and posting them on public property is a governmental endorsement of religion.

Read more: http://newsok.com/ten-commandments-display-will-get-high-court-review/article/3439338#ixzz0fTLxfhv4



"Whenever we remove a brick from the wall that was designed to separate religion and government, we increase the risk of religious strife and weaken the foundations of our democracy" ~Justice John Paul Stevens

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av8rdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hmmmm...I wonder how this SCOTUS will rule...hmmmmm....
Pretty hard to guess.

:sarcasm:

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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Looking up how Justice Kennedy has ruled on these in the past...
Edited on Sat Feb-13-10 09:28 PM by usregimechange
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Done, conclusion: we are screwed
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. “If an atheist walks by, they can avert their eyes,” said Justice Kennedy
If you don't like colored water fountains just don't look at em.
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Justice Kennedy gets to decide this one.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. He wants to make sure they don't turn him away at the pearly gates.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Dependent on which Ten Commandment is used on the display...
since there are basically three different "Ten Commandments", the choice of one over the others would mean that the city is choosing one religious mythology over another and therefor adopting that religion as the official religion of that particular political jurisdiction and that would be against the first amendment of the bill of rights...

Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The court has applied the idea of congress to any governmental entity operating in the US...
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. applied to the states as required by the 14th Amendment
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Either way, the court should be unanimous in it's decision.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. I'll give you three guesses...
Hint: I don't think Jews or Catholics erect these things on public property. That is for Protestants.

--imm
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. What should the penalty be for coveting your neighbor's ass?
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Depends on if it is a same sex ass...
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. And according to the conservative bloc of this court, what precisely you do to that ass
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. Great. We'll have that dumbass shit on every streetcorner.
Fuck the U.S. Supreme W. Court in advance of another idiotic decision.

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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Except for all that God stuff, it would be good if people actually followed the 10 commandments
I think it's rather egotistical for humans to believe that God created us "in his image".

Why would he give a shit about us?

It's more likely that he created cockroaches in his own image since they are the only things that can survive our ultimate fuckups.

BTW, when we start legislating religious preferences the whole concept of free will pretty much goes down the crapper.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. Aren't these the bozos that can't spell "adultery"?
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secondwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. Damn.......if Kennedy votes in favor of this , I'm tempted to erect the 10 commandments


of Buddhism or some such, right next to this freakin' TABLET.
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. he most likely will approve it, has in the past
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vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. It's not a bad idea to test this against any other religion
Edited on Sun Feb-14-10 12:13 AM by vixengrl
to see how it flies--maybe Jedi. Or Flying Spaghetti monster--if they were truly "all created equal". I'm all for the righteous erection of a Golden apple and pyramid yin/yang for Eris, myself.
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tulsakatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. why am I NOT surprised this is in Oklahoma?
:banghead:
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Alabama, too
I remember marching to protest the sign in the Supreme Court building in Montgomery a long time ago.
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tulsakatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. remember in Charlie Wilson's War?
Wilson, who is from Texas was talking to a constituent who was offended because someone asked them to remove the nativity scene from in front of a firehouse. Charlie said to him that he could move that nativity scene to any one of several churches and everyone's happy. But the guy didn't want to do that! He wanted it to remain there, no matter who disagreed with it!

And unfortunately, this is usually the kind of thinking of these kinds of people. It's not enough to make a compromise, they want what they want and everyone else is supposed to live with it!
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Kurt Remarque Donating Member (709 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
19. christ, not another one
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
20. If it doesn't come with a "everybody gets to put something up"
clause, I will be very unhappy with any kind of an OK for this stuff...
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it Holy!
Will they start enforcing that! "I'm sorry judge, I over slept."
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vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-13-10 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
24. My cheesy, blogular contribution to the whole thing--
Ten Commandments display will get high court review

(at http://vixenstrangelymakesuncommonsense.blogspot.com/2010/02/what-fun-ten-commandments-case.html )

(Can't figure out how to link pic--but you know what the Commandments are, surely.)

The U.S. Supreme Court is scheduled next week to consider the case involving a Ten Commandments monument on Haskell County Courthouse property in Stigler, but the legal discussion got a head start Friday at the University of Oklahoma.

Political science professor emeritus Peter Irons, of the University of California at San Diego, and law professor Thomas Berg, of the University of St. Thomas in Minneapolis, discussed legal opinions on the separation of church and state during "Signs of the Times: The First Amendment and Religious Freedom.” A panel discussion followed.

"The Supreme Court is scheduled to consider the petition at its conference on Feb. 19,” Irons wrote of Green v. Haskell County in his outline, "with the outcome hard to predict.”

The monument with the Ten Commandments was erected in 2004 outside the Haskell County Courthouse. Haskell County resident James Green and the American Civil Liberties Union filed suit the next year to remove it, claiming the monument violated the First Amendment separation of church and state.{



Above I have a picture of the Ten Commandments--and just for the sake of showing that they are kind of biased, and actually, not necessarily representative of our legal system, I just wanted to go through them a bit:

I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

This one is really hard to square with the First Amendment right off the bat. The government can't explicitly erect a law favoring the Abrahamic god, so implicitly, the worship of other Gods can go on, and does. Some people worship Pan of the grove. Some are keen on Father Odin. Some elevate Lucifer the Morning Star. Some are initiate in the mysteries of Osirus. They are not Jehovah-firsters. And the Constitution does not discriminate against them.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.

Well, we do! I, for example, am an afficionada of eastern art. My decor has several Buddhas, a couple Shivas, a bronze Durga astride a lion. They would qualify as "graven images", as would my handsome little plaster relief of the Goat of Mendes, my Ganesh--and I have little jade fishes! Actually, many homes throughout the country have various statuary, some devotional, some not. But just generically, "graven images" could include garden gnomes. I like to think of this artistic expression as also a First Amendment issue.

Thou shalt not take the name of thy Lord in vain.

This one reminds me of old Reverend Wiley Drake. For some reason, with a name like Rev. Wiley Drake, I picture him as a duck with a collar. Can't help myself, really. But that is neither here nor there. He recently expressed that the lately departed Rep. John Murtha was on the list of people he was targeting with "imprecatory prayer." Now, he might decide to chalk that in his "win" column, but I've wondered if using the Lord's name in vain couldn't mean something a bit more intimate to the Lord, his God, than uttering the occasional (and First Amendment-protected!) good "Goddamn!"

What if you puffed yourself up with maintaining works were the works of the Lord when for all you knew, they were serendipity? What if you claimed you heard God when you didn't? This would be an act a little more brazen than when Moses drew water from the rock without doing it in God's name. Just a theological kind of point I turn around in my mind occasionally, what with the Bible being written in symbolic language at times.

Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy.

As a kid, I thought Moses threw this one in, kind of like a union rep. "God, when you did the 'universe' job, you got to take a break after six days--my folks would like that since they have had to labor for their bread since the unfortunate 'apple incident'. Can we work this 'day off' thing into the contract?" But what day should that really be? And can the US government enforce any particular day?

Honor thy Father and Mother.

You know, it is sometimes illegal to do that. Really. If your parent was a felon, you could do time for harboring them. Thanks to the War on Drugs, there was even propaganda back in the '80's that you should rat out your folks if they were holding. Also, there are numerous incidents of settled case law where the government can step in in loco parentis in the best interests of the child, for example where the child faces endangerment. (Our government would have stepped in on what Abraham meant to do to Isaac, for instance--no question.)

Thou shalt not kill.

Except the Bible itself goes on to justify capital punishment and war. Lots and lots of capital punishment and war. The whole Book of Joshua is about wiping masses of people out. We have laws on the books about not doing murder here in the U.S. You can be sent to death row for it.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

This might be more nearly our national past-time than baseball! If you're any kind of political junky, you can probably tote up a dozen adulterers--maybe some of them resigned in disgrace. But although the odd, arcane "alienation of affection" law might rest on the books, it's only kind of prejudicial in a divorce. We don't send people to jail for it.

Thou shalt not steal.

This is a good one. I think you should not hoodwink, hornswoggle, overcharge, "hidden fee", fine print, or otherwise dupe regular folks as a point of good business, either. But folks do, and they find the most tortuous legal loopholes to do it, too.

Thou shalt not bear false witness.

This means, broadly--"Don't lie", although to be generous, it means "Don't lie in a trial." People lie all the time. Sometimes without even meaning to. Sometimes just to cast themselves in a better light--and we have laws to prevent people from self-incrimination. Is that a sin of omission? To represent yourself as good by not betraying yourself? One wonders.

Thou shalt not covet.

And this last one is not any kind of law, and is possibly un-American. Of course we covet the things our neighbor has! Why else do we get up and go to work? We might not covet his wife, but his car? It could be a sweet ride. I have coveted things I saw other people wear, and it only made me happy to work overtime to afford them. If coveting can bring out the best in a person--how bad is that?

So, um, Ten Commandments. I don't really get why this has become such a "thing", you know?

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MoralSyncretism Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-14-10 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Thanks for your detailed analysis
Good job.    I appreciated it.   :applause:
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