Doctors in Haiti told to pull out by UN.

[Raschel]

Anderson Cooper talking to Sanjay Gupta said the UN came and took the doctors to another location, leaving very ill people in a field without care.

What's happening over there is inexcusable. Any chance of people being saved is just about over. Injured people who aren't trapped are dying for lack of care. People who are well do not have food or water. This is bullshit.

Robert Gates says food drops would cause rioting. Security will be the first thing addressed. This is bullshit.

[Orrex]

1. Out of curiosity, what do you recommend?

[Raschel]

15. I would suggest since there are so few doctors to begin with, that someone

would be able to come up with some security for them.

[kayla9170]

93. The OATH of a Doctor to ...........

DO NO HARM for one and not leave people that are in the mist of possibly dying already!!! :mad: Stupid question!!!

[Leopolds Ghost]

145. Would MSF/DWB leave critical patients abandon them in a field tent in the bush in some war zone?

Would US Medical Corps doctors do so?

I would expect doctors to lose their professional license by peer commission for abandoning a critical patient, regardless who told them to do so.

I suspect their "protests that they didn't really want to leave" are bullshit.

Remember the abandonment of the Rwandan school, when they took away all the white people and they watched everyone else get slaughtered in their rear view mirror? Not a single foreign national refused to leave the children in their care. That's human nature, right there. Assholery and barbarism -- on the part of the people who left.

And in that case there was an actual genocide, not merely a natural disaster with overblown security threats and access concerns that the journalists don't seem to be affected by.

If one is in loco parentis, or whatever the medical term is for people in critical care, you never, ever abandon people like that.

[jillan]

2. What? That makes absolutely NO SENSE - please keep me updated

my family is hogging the tv right now.

[HipChick]

4. due to security concerns..yet the camera crew said they were there till midnight last night..

no problems..some people were just operated on, and then the dr's and nurses were told to leave..FFS!

[FrenchieCat]

3. Could you give us more detail?

I feel Anderson is trying hard for a Katrina redux.

Are you, per chance, falling for it?

He is quite good, but he is still the media shill that shows
up on our television, on CNN (Corporate Nobama Network) each and every night.

[Raschel]

11. That's about all I heard. There are people left who have been operated on.

people who are sick, just left there with no care. The UN came and took the doctors due to security concerns. But as another poster noted, they haven't seen any problems.

I know the media is hyping the looting, civil unrest and looking for a story, but with people dying with no care, no rescue, no food or water since Tues, it's not a stretch that it will happen out of desperation.

[Leopolds Ghost]

142. "Trying hard for a Katrina redux" -- what, you thought the probs with Katrina were exaggerated?

[DJ13]

5. Cant begin the Shock Doctrine if the people get help?

Cynical, aint I?

[niyad]

6. listening to KO and rachel, didn't hear anything like that.

[Waiting For Everyman]

7. Thank you! Honore was just on tv saying this is unnecessary too.

Gates is an ass. From his pov then, I guess our military should be SCARED of these civilian victims? Our troops can't protect the doctors and workers there? Then what are they there for?

This is SHAMEFUL.

[Luminous Animal]

8. Oh well, can't have rioting now can we.

That so would not look well on TV. Let them all die.

[Leopolds Ghost]

108. Ret. Gen. Russel Honore "This is the biggest BS I ever heard" "Security DOES NOT TAKE PRECEDENCE"

"Security DOES NOT TAKE PRECEDENCE over saving lives when you are in a rescure situation."

-- Russel Honore (Lt. Gen Ret.) on Anderson Cooper

"I saw the same thing in New Orleans, people packing M-16s and body armor because they were
afraid because you had POOR PEOPLE, in CROWDS, that it might be a bad situation to provide
IMMEDIATE ASSISTANCE. You need to organize the people that are there into TEAMS, STOP BEING
AFRAID OF THEM."

He said this on a SPLIT SCREEN with SANJAY GUPTA (breifly considered for
position of Surgeon General) who is now the ONLY DOCTOR on-site on this
field hospital (Cooper and Honore were watching him treat the patients
abandoned to protect the "security" of the white UN doctors.)

Why the FUCK has the Administration given George FDUB BUSH and neocon ROBERT GATES a voice on Haiti
and NOT RUSSEL HONORE???

He's CREOLE FOR FFS and he was the only person who knew what he was talking about after Katrina.

[vadawg]

113. he may be right and may be wrong but thats the SOP when faced with a major disaster

who cares if the UN doctors are white or black or yellow or blue or do you have issues with there being white doctors at the UN...

[Leopolds Ghost]

125. No, sadly, doctors from many countries would flee twice as fast, esp.countries w/no social tradition

Get some doctors from the US or MSF or other parts of the caribbean, they would fucking stick around.
Sanjay Gupta sure as hell is.

And if his own private security detail is good enough for him it's good enough for any other doctor
who chose to disobey orders and remain.

Rwandan general who stuck it out during the genocide did so in disobedience of UN orders to pull out
all UN forces because of security.

He had an obligation to save lives as someone in a position to do so, even with no personal protection
(and he was a fucking general.)

[Leopolds Ghost]

128. Besides which, this security stuff is made-up.

There's plenty incidents of crime & violence after any major disaster, that is no reason for doctors to leave.

I suppose people piling dead bodies into roadblocks out of anger with lack of response is "rioting"

[vadawg]

132. not disagreeing with you, but thats the point you always get violence

i think the issue here is the fact that the society has collapsed and there are 3 million people here, thats a whole lot of powderkeg right there. The rioting will happen if you start to distribute food and there is not enough, i think this is a big fear the aid agencies have.

[Leopolds Ghost]

143. The society hasn't collapsed, the buildings have. Bolivian army is distributing food & water no prob

Is that what they're afraid of, a "Bolivian Army Ending"? (tvtropes reference for the win!)

[vadawg]

147. dude their society collapsed a long time ago, it was barely hanging on before the quake

gonna be interesting to see if this is the final death nail in the coffin or if haiti will ever be rebuilt..

[vadawg]

9. nope security is the most important thing in being able to provide care and supplies

its all very well going in without it, but what happens to the people you are helping as soon as certain elements start to force you out, nope you need to get the security on the ground in order to distribute and protect the supplies and aid workers..

[BeFree]

12. 78 hours

And there is no security?

Forget that there is no evidence that it is needed. What is needed is medical care, food and water.

But 78 hours later and the troops are not there yet? Not even to protect the medical teams? Something stinks.

[Raschel]

14. I heard we had three water distributions and then cancelled one. Don't know why.

I definitely heard it though. I don't understand why there are Belgian, Swiss and Korean? rescuers and I don't see us there.

[vadawg]

16. there are americans there, there are always fore and rescue teams from the US

problem is that once you start setting up aid distribution especially in areas where people havent eaten or had water for days you get overwhelmed and riots occur, thats why you need security on the ground in order to get the most aid to the most people, you have to also remember that not everybody in any area or city is going to be the nicest of people, if you send in medical teams without security they are likely to be robbed etc, its just a fact of life in natural disasters no matter were in the world they occur..

[BeFree]

19. So

Your idea is that you must first be prepared to kill them before you can save them?

[vadawg]

23. no you are missing the point, in order to save the maximum amount of people you need to control the

distribution, other wise the only people who will get it are the strongest and the baddest, look at any disaster and you will see that if aid is not guarded then its stolen and most often gets sold on the black market, its a simple fact also that not every person in a disaster area is a good guy, for some its the oppurtunity to take power, control or just to enrich themselves, some of them will even use deadly force in order to obtain what they want, simple facts of life in a disaster zone..

[BeFree]

27. OK

So you fly in 20 armed Marines by chopper and they get set up. Then you fly in a load of supplies. What's so hard about that?

[vadawg]

34. its all politics my friend, i bet if you gave the go ahead the military could have 100's on the grou

ground quickly, 20 would not be enough. There seems to have been a failure in the political side somewhere as i doubt that the military would have issues getting bodies if they needed them on the ground..

[BeFree]

38. Are they needed?

You say they are needed. So where the fuck are they?

20 armed soldiers not enough? What do you expect? How many is enough? How many more people die while the news crews are there taking pics?

[vadawg]

42. you ever been at a food riot, you ever seen what hundreds never mind thousands of people trying to

get food or water, its not pretty and we are getting close to that stage, how many marines do you think it would take to hold back even 1000 people if they decided that they were going to take what they wanted...

[BeFree]

45. Let 'em take it!!

We are giving to the people, not the government. And just like Katrina, the people are going to be pissed again. And here you are siding up next to the government.

[vadawg]

49. you really cant be this naive, okay you want to let the biggest take the food

what about the weakest etc, you just dont get it, at this point people are not going to politely let women and children go first, or even share it out, its going to turn into fights for the food etc, forget the haitian government they are done for the moment, when you have 100's of thousands of starving people if you dont set up a distribution chain for supplies, triage etc then you are going to get overwhelmed and bad shit happens...

[BeFree]

58. Dude

Bad shit is happening. Open your eyes and quit making excuses. If the military won't do it, then fuck it, dump the stuff and get out of the way.

The way it is, only the very strongest ARE surviving. Right now, the weakest don't stand a chance.

The American people have pledged millions of dollars and yet our military can't deliver?

[winyanstaz]

69. I believe I heard something similar to this during rescue for Katrina victims...

yup..I am sure of it.

[vadawg]

75. yeah and you will hear it after every disaster from people who know what they are doing

its like triage in the hospital, it dosent matter how hard you try you are going to lose people so you plan from the beginning to save the biggest number you can realising that you will have to make decisions that will cost lives.... whether you like it or not there is no magical teleport machine that can get boots and supplies on the ground any quicker..

[winyanstaz]

90. Strange because I have been around a long time....

and I have been through a couple of disasters personnally...the mass floodings in Klickatat and a couple of tornadoes in the Dakotas and Kansas.....and heard of many more in the past...hurricanes, tornadoes, mass flooding etc...and the people got helped in a timely manner. There was no looting or rioting.
All of a sudden we got Katrina and we heard crap about "security and riots and people needing their guns taken away and help being turned away etc etc etc and the military and hired thugs like Black water taking peoples guns and roughing up grandmas...and people being left to die....and that is what made Katrina such a shock to the Nation...that there was no timely help for the people.
Now we are seeing the same thing happening in Haiti? I call bullshit!
Get in there and help those people and stop making excuses for the military and the U.N..and the bureaucrats playing big brother ...they all need to shut the fuck up and get out of the way.

[vadawg]

107. lol you think this all started with katrina, this has been standard for years

the disasters you have been through are minimal compared to what is happening today or happens in other parts of the world, you do realise that we are talking about 3 million people or so in another country that has no seaport and limited runways...

[Hannah Bell]

83. yes, you did. black people can't be helped, they riot & kill each other.

it's sickening.

[vadawg]

86. no white people do it as well, as do asian in fact all people do it

dosent matter what colour of skin we live in, given the right circumstances we all would riot for food and kill for food..

[Hannah Bell]

88. didn't get the same story during the hurricane relief in asia. no pulling back over security

fears & no breathless speculation about when the violence would start.

it's bullshit.

[vadawg]

96. nope its not, here you have a society that for all intensive purpose dosent exist anymore

there are what 3 million people in one small area, if you think there would be no violence then think about the black friday sales at your local walmart if they offerred huge screen TVs for $10 each, there would be a lot6 of violence, now think of 3 million people with no way of getting enough food to them all at one time....

[Hannah Bell]

100. as i said, we didn't hear this bull during the asian hurricanes.

[vadawg]

102. and as i said, this is a different kettle of fish, this society has gone

you have 3 million people in a pile of rubble, if you truly believe that they will all line up and wait their turn while you parachute food into a field then you have no clue about how desperate people can get and what they become capable off. You may not of heard about security concerns but the people who actually go on the ground have learned to have them for every disaster for years.

[Hannah Bell]

104. bunch of crap.

[vadawg]

109. great reply, i guess you got nothing

[Hannah Bell]

115. nothing to say to someone whose only line is "this is different from every other disaster!"

it's not.

[vadawg]

120. nope not saying its any different, thats what you are missing

im saying that every disaster has security issues, just because you dont see them, from convey protection in ethiopia, to securing aid supplies in earthquakes to cops patrolling streets during hurricanes. My whole point is that like every other disaster there are certain issues that are the same, the difference here is the fact that 3 million people are confined to a small area where everything is destroyed, now if you dont see how this presents problems thenperhaps its better that you dont say anyting...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

95. I never agree with you about anything. Ever.

I agree with you on this point though. Of course, I still haven't seen the rest of the thread. By the way...colour? Are you with the Bobbies now?

[BeFree]

17. Americans are there

Private rescue crews.

But where are the soldiers? What the hell is taking them so long?

[vadawg]

20. also fire and rescue from countys in the US...

no idea why the boots are not on the ground as off yet, but they need to get them there fast..

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. PRivate rescue groups? News to me that DMAT II and V are private

[BeFree]

29. DMAT and V

There are private groups there. Hell, the news are private. There are many NGOs on the ground.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Yes, but NGOs are not private either

and the DMAT teams are FEDERAL TEAMS,,, by the way the other two are stuck and waiting...

[BeFree]

47. Excuses are like assholes

Everybody's got one.

There are privates on the ground there. Well ahead of the US Army privates, I might add.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Sure there are, they are called Haitians who are doing

the best they can under horrible circumstances

And as to excuses, keep comparing this to Katrina... hate to say this, but this is the equivalent on the left with the delusional right wing, meals on wheels comments.

By the way those who are saying that were there before army privates, yes you are correct, they were there before the quake struck...

Amazing...

[vadawg]

53. rofl, watch out the privates will be accussed of using witchcraft because they knew it was coming

the only way i would compare this to katrina is in a political sense, i think like katrina there is a breakdown on a political level that is hindering what needs to be done, once again politics and politicians are getting in the way... now as a disaster this is on scales of magnitude worse to most people unless you were personally impacted...

[BeFree]

55. WTF?

....this is the equivalent on the left with the delusional right wing, meals on wheels comments.

Take that shit and stuff it where the sun don't shine.

The time for excuses are over. There are no more excuses to be made. The people are suffering, and the people over here have stepped up. Time for our government to get off its ass and do our bidding. NOW.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Here is a clue, they are moving as fast as they can

what is your background? I only did this shit for real.

[BeFree]

62. Moving as fast as they can? BS

They can move faster. Just quit making excuses, ok? Just stop. Its ugly.

People are dying and they don't have to be. The military's job is to get in quick, as quick as the news at least. Fuck, if the news is in the way, push 'em aside and get the fuck in there. MO MORE EXCUSES!

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. The First MEU is on board anfib ships

you think they can push the engines faster than it is safe to push them without risking an accident? Yes they have a max safe cruise speed on those things. That kind of limits how fast they can get there and that is just one example

You think they can land more planes than they are already landing? I mean they magically will make that into Kennedy Airport I guess...

Or perhaps some pixie dust will make the port be fixed... which incidentally until they fix it, civilian ships will have a hell of a time unloading.

I truly wish I could throw pixie dust and make all better, but can't.

So once again, what is your background?

Because it is you who is sounding dumb

[BeFree]

74. I am dumb?

I hear the cries of the people dying and I am dumb? No. It is you who are dumb.

WE spend trillions on the military and it's been 80 hours.

When will you be happy? 100 hours? 120? When? What is your limit?

My limit has been reached. NO MORE EXCUSES. I do not exist to protect the military.

[vadawg]

76. mayby your not dumb but you are acting dumb, you keep asking questions

and people who have been on the ground in disasters are trying to explain to you why stuff is done the way it is and you just try to shout over them, i dont know what your speciality is but if i had a question related to it i would listen to you, i might not agree with you but i would listen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. I am notprotecting the military

I just happen to have a clue. As I said, I did this shit FOR REAL.. writing plans and chiefly IMPLEMENTING them, thankfully not in a worst it, was one of my shticks.

Once again YOU CANNOT MOVE THE 1ST MEU FASTER THAN IT IS PHYSICALLY MOVING.

And there are teams already in the city... you just have no clue how this works... and refuse to open your eyes that they are... and more every day.

You really don't have a clue and are just angry over Katrina and all that and I GET IT.

And yes your comparison to Katrina is way off... that was a mess, directed from the WH on American soil... this is on foreign land, it takes three to five DAYS for ships to get from oh the East Coast Ports, or for that matter Veracruz, yes the Mexican Navy sent a Navy ship today... won't be there until oh Tuesday, and will beat the USS Comfort since it left first... both are hospital ships.

Perhaps your lesson should be I need to be able to fend for myself for at least seventy two hours in a disaster... oh wait, isn't that the mantra from the experts ALL THE FUCKING TIME?

Now are you going to attack the multiple militaries bringing rescue, logistics, and medical personnel while you are at it? There is a reason why they do this... and you may hate the military, but hell, in a disaster I want them around.

[BeFree]

92. Ok, expert

How f'n long then?

Too long already. It is past 72 hours. I will not make excuses. Excuses do not save lives. Besides, the USGS predicted this 3 years ago.

I am sick of the excuses. I don't want to hear any more excuses. I want to hear they are on the ground and getting supplies in to people who need those supplies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. They are on the ground and they are getting the supplies out

they need to scale this, but they are.

Now good night, good life, and USGS did not predict crapt. Our earthquake prediction science is not there yet... and how exactly did you expect, just if it was, that we act? GENIUS...

Pixie dust, I need to get me some of that pixie dust

[Hannah Bell]

87. i heard they were all dying of swine flu, too.

florida to haiti = 710 miles
new york to haiti = 1500 miles


U.S. Military Major Bases and Installations in Florida

Major Installations

Navy & Marine Corps

•Mayport Naval Air Station
•Jacksonville Naval Air Station
•Naval Coastal Systems Center
•Mayport Naval Station
•Pensacola Naval Air Station
•Whiting Field Naval Air Station
•Naval Diving & Salvage Training Center

Air Force

•Eglin AFB
•Hurlburt AFB
•Tyndall AFB
•Patrick AFB
•MacDill AFB
•Cape Canaveral AFS

Coast Guard

•Seventh Coast Guard District
•Joint Interagency Task Force East
•Group Key West
•Group Mayport
•Group Miami
•Group St. Petersburg
•Marine Safety Office Jacksonville
•Marine Safety Office Miami
•Marine Safety Office Tampa
•Air Station Miami
•Air Station Clearwater

Personnel Totals

•Army 2,982
•Navy & Marine Corps 23,223
•Air Force 24,526
•Coast Guard 4,757
•Active Duty Military 50,731
•Reserve and National Guard 53,902
•Total Personnel 109,390

[Hannah Bell]

105. Atlantic MEU HQ in Florida, 710 miles to Haiti, forces in NC, 1250 miles to Haiti.

Ready, per their mission statement, for *IMMEDIATE* deployment at all times. 3 divisions in NC.

Besides which, there are 100,000 military personnel of various types stationed in Florida alone.


They were ordered to deploy Wednesday.

Commandant Gen. James Conway, speaking at a Surface Navy Association symposium outside Washington, confirmed that the unit will deploy from Camp Lejeune, N.C., to the Caribbean nation aboard several amphibious ships that were ordered to prepare for deployment Wednesday. The aircraft carrier Carl Vinson is expected to arrive sometime Thursday, becoming the first major Navy ship to arrive in the devastated country.


There's already a US aircraft carrier & 6 other US military ships in Haiti. Those don't carry troops & equipment?

[BeFree]

121. heh

It isn't like this is war. They don't need tanks, air cover and bombs.

Gawd, this is a peacekeeping mission. Parachute the guys in.

The 82nd Airborne doesn't mean it takes 82 hours, does it?

[Hannah Bell]

130. i'm saying nadin's info is incorrect. in fact, there's already a big contingent of military

in haiti: an aircraft carrier & six other ships, military aircraft, etc.

plus the travel time of MEUs is less than she's making out.

[Leopolds Ghost]

150. I don't see how comparing it to Katrina is "minimizing" unless you mean Katrina is a forgettable

Which it is to most Dems and most Americans.

Obama didn't even fucking VISIT New Orleans until a year after his election... on a campaign stopover.

And his Admin, and Dems, continue to endorse the demolition of all remaining public housing
and public hospital and other public resources in the city... which many people on this board
have no problem with... anything, in fact, that was "set up to cater to those people we are
trying to provide a better life for by encouraging them not to return".

Bet you anything they will apply the same policies to rebuild Port au Prince...

Haiti should only fucking REMIND people of our past missed promises and failed remedies in
a most recent comparable disaster here at home...

to prosecute the people who shot at those trying to escape, etc.

Honore says he's seeing evidence of the same mentality in our efforts in Haiti. And I'm
sure the same mentality and injustice is afflicting the local gov't there that has always.

The fact that many more people died in Port Au Prince earthquake does not mean the two
events are not comparable, or that Katrina is not ONGOING.

Certainly the deaths in Haiti are ongoing, and so the people saying "don't insult us by
bringing up Katrina, far more people have died and ARE DYING in the earthquake" as if
this was a dick measuring contest, but the same people are saying "I respect the efforts
that are being made so far, we're not there, let's reserve judgement and allow the
relief effort to continue without undue criticism!" Well then, if there's nothing to
criticise, let's stop talking about the ongoing deaths shall we?

This "no comparison" argument is like Native tribes that suppress talk of problems afflicting
Native Americans in the US because they want to focus on the success stories and feel any
probs other tribes might be having today in the US pale in comparison to what they suffered
long ago, so we should just shut up about them.

[Waiting For Everyman]

24. They could be 100% secure, by not going in at all. Great.

What's the point of establishing security to work on people later who are dying now of thirst?

After they're dead, it'll be good and secure. Terrific.

Somebody needs to rethink our strategy on responding to crisis. The way we do this is worthless.

People who aren't afraid to respond to danger should be in charge of this, not scaredy-cat desk-jockeys - it's obvious the latter are calling the shots.

[vadawg]

32. nothing to do with responding to danger or not, its lessons learned

if you just pour food and supplies into an area without gettting distribution set up and security you end up with riots and people killing each other over what there is, only the strongest and fittest get anything and you end up giving control of the area to the baddest cat on the block, now thats fine if you want to feel good but you end up with a higher death toll than if you can get security for your distribution sites and ensure that people get hte aid they need. Now the problem seems to be that as haiti is such a craphole even before the earthquake all forms of government have ceased and the world for some reason isnt putting troops in to stabilize it :shrug:

[BeFree]

35. Damn

There you go again. There are dozens of private groups that have been working in Haiti for years, and they've had no problems. Maybe you don't know shit about Haitians?

[vadawg]

40. obviously you know shit about what happens after a natural distaster

did you not see the complete failure of all government at all levels after katrina, now do you think the Haitian government is in a much better position, now you dont think that 100's of thousands of people who are without water and food for days are a total different prospect than the society before the quake. Just look at katrina to see how quickly society can fall apart when theres no food or water..

[BeFree]

43. Yeah

And your idea is let it fall apart, then give them water when we are good and ready. You better hope you are never caught up in such a place, karma is a bitch.

See, I am on the people's side. You are on the 'officials' side. The same type of officials that allowed N.O. to dip into hell before things happened.

F those assholes!!

[vadawg]

46. lol no i am on the side that gets it, that understands and learns from history

you seem to not understand what its like to actually be without and the lengths that people will go to, and why without the security in place you end up with riots and people killing each other and their rescuers..

[BeFree]

50. Wait another two days

The supplies should have already been there. Wait another two days and what you are saying, yep. And that seems to be the same thing that happened in NO. And you liked that shit?

[vadawg]

51. once again you are missing the point, at no point did i say it was good

i just know from experience that when you deal with disasters that we have learned from experience that you are dealing with a society that is in shock and that you need to ensure security for everyone or you just compound the disaster, to you looking in the solutions sound easy but its not, yeah sure they can get food dumped on a road but what happens if 100's of people fight over enough food for 50 and 100's die. So once again i dont know why the situation is being allowed to take so long but it is probuably political as it so often is...

[BeFree]

60. Well

You do admit that it is a problem and it is rooted in politics. We agree. But making excuses? We digress.

Right now, only the strongest are surviving and the weakest are dying. And because of politics they don't stand a chance, right now.

Tell ya what, I'd bet Obama is getting pissed that the military is farting around. After all, the military is a lot like Oreally.

So, no more excuses, ok? The military could have, and should have already been dropping supplies. Why not, is the question. Lets stick with that. No more excuses.

[vadawg]

63. once again drop supplies where and to who, you need a distribution network

or its a waste of time, you need people to pass the stuff out and secure areas to bring it in, last thing you want is aircraft getting swamped and damaged due to lack of security...

[winyanstaz]

78. The history is that many times in the past....we have had disasters...

and people got help.
Katrina..with the mess the government and the military made and the bureaucrats red tape all in the name of "security"..and turning civilian and other nations help away..caused many to die.
That is what made Katrina such a shock to see.
Americans have suffered floods, tornadoes and hurricanes many times before Katrina......and people were taken care of in a timely manner and there were NOT riots etc.
People on the ground and in Haiti have reported there was no violence and looting..people were trying to help each other. There is NO reason not to get our asses IN there and get some help to those people.
This is NOT the time or place to be playing NWO or having Blackwater beating the crap out of people and taking their guns or for the U.N. to send Dr's away. Thats total bullshit.
We have already seen this before and we know the results. Dead people...a whole lot of dead people and unnecessary deaths to boot.

[BeFree]

79. It is BS

ENOUGH.

I gave them until today to get there asses in there. And what do they say?
"One of these days"

Something stinks. The smell after Katrina has not gone away and this is smelling too much the same.

Thank you, winyanstaz. We are on the people's side. We are not here to whitewash anything. We are here to proclaim for the people who need help, NOW.

[vadawg]

84. yeah you are here to proclaim and thats it,

some people do and others sit and proclaim for the people,

[Hannah Bell]

135. society didn't fall apart during katrina. you're so full of shit.

the main thing that "fell apart" during katrina was our gov't's response. purposefully so.

[vadawg]

137. lol you dont get it do you, the society inside of new orleans certainly did

the locals all bugged out, there was no one organising or calling the shots, the good thing was the rest of the state and country wasnt effected to the same level, now imagine if the whole of the US was struck by a disaster, this is what has happened to haiti, their society just took a minoan slam, will it recover or will it disappear.

[Hannah Bell]

138. i get it just fine. "black people are dangerous."

[vadawg]

140. lol yes they are, so are white people, yellow people and people with red hair

all people are dangerous when it comes to situations like this, desperation makes us do desperate things, i get the impression that you dont realise that or you are in denial.

[tblue37]

10. Like Katrina. They're treating them like potential criminals, not like victims. nt

[Raschel]

13. good point.

[vadawg]

18. problem is that people who are in shock and starved and generally survivors of a disaster are like

criminals in that they will do what they need to do to get food etc, i dont blame them one bit but in order for aid to get to everybody and not just the strongest or baddest you need to control the security of the aid stations and surrounding areas..

[BeFree]

25. OK

So lets go with that. Security must be established.

The question is then, why isn't there security established? It is going on 79 hours that the need was known.

[vadawg]

28. i dont disagree with you there, they need to get boots on the ground

only thing i can think is mayby due to the lack of cohesive government there someone is having coniptions about sending troops in without a formal request :shrug: i honestly dont know why, but everyone knows how bad haiti is even before the earthquake so they got to know they need to get boots in there to stabilize and control the Aid...

[BeFree]

31. Going on 79 hours

You think the feeble government of Haiti is going to object?

Haiti is not 'that bad' many NGOs have been there for years without any problems.

O'really said pretty much what you are saying and he has been put down. Proven wrong. Please, we don't need to be repeating O'really here.

[vadawg]

36. not repeating oreally at all, think about it your comparing the government from before the quake to

after, so you really believe its humming along nicely now even if it was before, also i see you are now saying we should not listen to the feeble government of Haiti and just de facto invade them, think about it..

[BeFree]

41. Bullshit

It is exactly what Oreally was saying and he was shot down. So are you.

The gov was not humming along nicely, but the Haitian people were. Now you are ready to make criminals of them before they get the first bottle of water? F'n sick, dude.

[vadawg]

44. lol you really have never been without a meal in oyur life if you think that after a distaster

like this people are not going to do whatever it takes to feed themselves or their family's, therefore you need to secure the supplies to ensure everyone gets what they need, if you dont believe me go take all your savings and stand on any street corner where you live with the money held out and see how long before someone robs you, there are always people who will take and in a natural disaster when it comes down to survival that number rockets...

[BeFree]

So

Right now, right friggin now, they strongest are surviving and they are talking from the weak. And you're ok with that? You're ok with making excuses and saying "oh the timings not right"?

[vadawg]

66. you really have no clue, and you are not listening to people who have been there

you have some crazy notion about what a disaster is like and how easy it is to respond to, dont you get it this is like nothing you can imagine, but there are people who not only imagine this kind of stuff but they have been through it before and they are working on it, the solutions may not be pretty to you but triage seldom is...

[BeFree]

71. I am listening

Listening to the people who need supplies. And not listening to your excuses. I read you, but your words are nothing but excuses.

[vadawg]

77. lol well you keep listening and posting online and let the grownups do what they need to do

if your looking to donate then remember the rescue orgs always need funds, they sometimes miss out....

[Hannah Bell]

124. bull. haiti is a wholly-owned colony of USA inc.

[jillan]

30. Then give them same water - I can't stand to see this. This seems to be moving in slow motion.

[winyanstaz]

65. a squad of armed guards would do the trick...and people could be being helped....

A lot of food drops would keep people fed and no riots from hunger...
but instead we have another Katrina in the works while the U.N. and the U.S. Military play NWO and police state while Blackwater thugs beat up little ol ladies and takes their guns as the people die from lack of water, food and Drs are sent away.
If they are going to do all that before they will start helping the people big time...then Haiti would have been better off if we had stayed home and just mailed a check.

[vadawg]

70. id like to see your numbers for how many armed guards it would take to control

say 6000 people or how about 10,000 people, who havent eaten in days and want the meager supplies that you have dropped....

[Hannah Bell]

106. Four days isn't starving, there are somefood supplies, and people in shock don't act as you suggest.

Just bullshit.

[vadawg]

110. once again someone who dosent grasp what a disaster of this level does to people

to a society, you think this is just a minor inconvenience, this may have destroyed what there was of haitian society... as to being starved you do realise that many of the people here live day to day, and four days is long enough to be hungry enough to do anything to eat and still have the strength to do it....

[Hannah Bell]

119. i know how people in shock behave from working at an army hospital. i've gone 4 days without

food myself & never once felt the urge to take a machete to anyone.

[vadawg]

123. once again you think that compares with seeing your whole world come down

and not knowing where your next meal is coming from, or if your kids are going to die today or tomorrow, you need to realise that the scale we are talking here is beyond what you can imagine, what anyone can imagine in a lot of ways. You need to look at the food drops that occured in somalia, what happened to aid convoys in the sudan, ethiopia, what has happened at aid stations throughout europe, hell even walmart on black friday....

[Hannah Bell]

126. "different from every other disaster". "Black people are savages."

[vadawg]

133. wow i cant believe you even think that way, it explains a lot if you believe that racist crap

every human has the propensity for savagery whether white, black, yellow or red, you need to get out more and see the world i think...

[Hannah Bell]

139. funny. as i said, we didn't hear this during the asian hurricanes. which wiped out a coastal city

or two.

i've seen a fair amount of the world, thanks all the same. maybe your trouble is your work has narrowed your vision.

you have nothing to say but "this is different," so i'll end our discussion now.

[vadawg]

141. yup its best you end whilst you are losing and not losing badly

dosent matter what level of disaster we are talking about, security is always a part of it, whether its famine, hurricanes, or just flooding of neighbourhoods which require a cop to sit to protect the empty houses from looters there is always a security concern. for some reason you keep harping on about it being different, its not every disaster has a game plan that is generally stuck to, the difference here is the scale...

[Nikki Stone1]

22. "Soldiers are just waiting for the order to go"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show#34887598

[NYC_SKP]

26. One thing for sure, almost nobody on this board has a fucking clue what's really going on...

...or what it would really take to handle whatever the fuck IS really going on.

But plenty of people are happy to point fingers and cast blame and doubt and compare this to Katrina, yada yada yada.

UTTER

BULLSHIT

We can donate, we can pray, we can try to find out more.

Other than that, it's all opinionating and blaming bullshit.

[BeFree]

33. heh

If I was on the ground, I'd sure as hell want DU screaming bloody murder to get supplies coming my way.

Go DU, raise hell!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Have you sent some money to the NGO of yoru choice so they can

buy the supplies?

Screaming all you want and pointing fingers ain't gonna buy those supplies.

Yes that's the way it works... they need MONEY.

[BeFree]

67. Yep

But what good are the supplies sitting on the airfield while on the streest the strongest are the only ones getting by? The time is now. They weak need it now.

Get the stuff to them yesterday! YESTERDAY!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Here is the issue on the ground...

TRUCKS...

Now trucks are coming, and now heavy lift choppers are there.

So THINGS are getting better already... this is not an excuse, this is the way it is.

The problem is that believe it or not it takes time and in this scale it takes longer than usual for the locals to feel some of it. But I am sure you saw some of the locals throwing the EMRATS on the ground, stomping on them and refusing to eat them. I get it, why they did that... but you did see that, didn't you?

[BeFree]

82. So

What is your time limit?

Its been 80 hours. I say enough.

NO MORE EXCUSES.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. What part of locals were not accepting the food provided are you missing

I know ugly military. Take a map and look at it. This might clue you in as to why it is "taking so long."

Preferably one in correct scale.

[BeFree]

91. Now

You are sounding like Fox news. Its really ugly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. No I am not

I have explained to you WHY this is not possible. Once again, there is this little thing called DISTANCE.

And yes, if you go over to CNN you will see people throwing those EMRATS the UN brought to them today on the ground, and stomping on them. I guess that means somebody was distributing oh FOOD...

I guess that goes against this idea that nobody is doing a thing.

Are they distributing a lot? NO.. are they distributing more than they did yesterday? Yes.

Do they need to scale this up... you bet.

But you're angry and do not want to listen to those who actually have a clue... or actually see what is actually happening... IT IS HAPPENING...

[BeFree]

97. Tell ya what's happening

The rich people got airlifted out and the ones staying have police to protect them. They get the goodies first and to hell with the peons. If you have money, you get the hell out, if you're broke, tough shit.

There's your fucking clue. NO MORE EXCUSES.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Tell you what, go take a course in emerency management

you might understand why every nation has been evacuatiing their citizens on the same planes they brought materiel in... they involve a liter of water per day and an MRE per person.

Buy a clue on the way to school.

As to the rich... no, they are not leaving, because the only ones leaving ARE OTHER NATION'S NATIONALS

Is there a black market? Show me a disaster without one.

So you think that the very rich are skimming the gear coming in? Is that how hard the tinfoil is on?

[BeFree]

99. No!!

Rich people don't ever, never, ever skim stuff. Especially not in Haiti!! Sereiesly!!

Really, your personal attacks are quite ugly and are destroying your creds. And now that little screed of yours.

My advice? Step away from the keyboard.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Rich people skim from the top

when they have access to it. YOu mean to tell me they are walking into the airport and taking stuff?

Ok...

And I don't care about cred with somebody who is not willing to listen.

(By the way the skimming WILL HAPPEN... it always does... but NOT YET... not until it leaves the airport and goes out of the control of the forces that right now control it... call it actual in the field experience)

Jeesus age... have a good fucking life in that fantasy world of yours. OH and I sincerely hope YOU NEVER go through a disaster, and if you do, that the cavalry arrives faster than the usual time it actually takes to put one of these responses together... in the US, remember though, SEVENTY TWO HOURS... I personally go for a week any longer. Otherwise I fear you will be my true nightmare, the rumor mill at the evacuation center... or worst IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD... spreading the kinds of theories that all but help.

By the way, when you discover pixie dust that makes all that much better INSTANTLY, let me know. I can use some of that stuff...

[BeFree]

112. You need something, fer sure

Your personal attacks are destroying your creds. If you have to stoop so low as to attack me to elevate yourself, well, then, you do need something.

All I care about is that the US military get their ass in there and go about taking care of business. The 82nd Airborne doesn't stand for "It takes us 82 hours to land" but that's what's happening. And it ain't the boots. They are ready to fly. Hell they'd parachute in.

Its not like they need tanks and big guns. This is not a war, although some of you are making it out as such. They need to land with food and water, and if the people there won't eat that crap, well, then deal with it.

As for me, folks tell me that if the SHTF, they are coming to join me.

[vadawg]

114. ??????????????????????? wtf does this mean ?????????

As for me, folks tell me that if the SHTF, they are coming to join me.

[BeFree]

117. Go away, please

Or I'm calling the cops!! Bwahahaha!!

[vadawg]

129. yeah okay, i guess it must be your immaturity or something.

[Hannah Bell]

136. you were wrong on swine flu, wrong on the bank bailout, wrong rice & on half a dozen

other things where you were johnny-on-the-spot predicting apocalypse, but have the nerve to tell others to "buy a clue"?

like i said, people would benefit more from your experience if you didn't feel it necessary to insult everyone who disagrees with you.

[Hannah Bell]

122. people might benefit more from your experience if you dispensed it without gratuitous

insults.

[arthritisR_US]

37. I so agee! n/t

[Kaleva]

48. +1

[roamer65]

56. I bet the Dominican Republic is reinforcing the border.

This could get very ugly when masses start moving toward the border..

[vadawg]

57. good point, i doubt they want million refugees... this is going to get a lot worse

for a long time before it gets better....

[winyanstaz]

61. Once again we have a cluster fuck with the military calling the shots....

Food drops would not cause rioting. Keeping people "secure" while Gates plays cops and robbers will not keep them alive.
Sending Dr's away is a crime.
Here is all the help in the world trying to help and once again we have the bureaucrat's messing things up and causing people to die.
When will we learn?

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Let me adress your points

Food drops would not cause rioting.


Yes they would, that was one of the lessons of Somalia.

Keeping people "secure" while Gates plays cops and robbers will not keep them alive.

Logistics requires a secure chain

Sending Dr's away is a crime.

Blme the UN not Gates... that was the decision of the UNITED NATIONS and I have no idea, nor do you, what drove that. I am sure there was a reason for that that neither you or I are privy and no tinfoil please.


Here is all the help in the world trying to help and once again we have the bureaucrat's messing things up and causing people to die.

Things are still pouring in and teams are still going out.


When will we learn?

When people learn not to play quarterback on things that they have no clue about. Oh and for the record Katrina WAS a disaster of a response, no pun... and that was on purpose.

[winyanstaz]

81. People were already dropping dead from starvation in Somalia....

If we get the food there in a timely manner..and spread out so the food isnt all in one location...you can avoid large crowds and rioting.
I heard these same arguements in the responses to Katrina..and I remember what happened too.
And you have no absolutly no clue what I know about or dont..or what I have seen or where I have been..you just like to shoot off your mouth.
At least we agree..Katrina was a disaster...so why can't we agree that doing the same things in Haiti that were done in New Orleans isnt also a disaster?

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. They are NOT DOING the same things

that is the part you are missing

Here is one major difference.

QUICK, how long until the international help was officially allowed into the US? One Week

How many FOREIGN TEAMS arrived to Port au Prince the first day, oh within 12 hours? five

See the difference, and that is the tip of the damn iceberg

For the record the Canadian DART was on the ground within 24 in Katrina, lets just say it got interesting to get them in. I got flashbacks... stupid nationalist pride... and I will leave it at that.

[Leopolds Ghost]

116. Nadine, no offense to you but sending doctors away is a crime in my book

They are "in loco parentis" in a position of responsibility for those patients EVEN OUT IN THE BUSH IN DARFUR.

Medecins Sans Frontieres would never do such a thing.

Evacuate the whole hospital if you must, or evacuate patients needing critical care WITH THE DOCTORS.

Any doctor who left critical patients on UN orders should be drawn up on PROFESSIONAL MISCONDUCT charges
when they get home,

Just as they would be in many jurisdictions if they administered execution or end-of-life medication.

"I was following orders" is no excuse.

Doctors have a professional obligation to their fraternity and code of conduct irrespective of jurisdiction,
whether a government is in place or not, just like any other skilled profession.

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. That is a whole different discusion

but blaming the US for a UN order is just nuts. And that is my point.

[Leopolds Ghost]

131. Not blaming the US, not sure what that's in reference to... but the US has a man for the job

Ret. Gen. Honore, who was just commenting on this situation on Anderson Cooper, and is Caribbean himself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. Retired and I expect this to pick up by tomorrow

it was today, not as fast as I would like to see in an ideal world, but it did.

Reality is that people never noticed before that there was a security component to any disaster in the US. That's what the cops are always around for, as well as the Guard.

I hope that tomorrow we will see far more, and hopefully Sanjay Gupta, he staid behind (and his security team) will either have an evac en force tonight, including the patients of course, or make it through the night.

This is a disaster of such an extent by the way that comparisons to Katrina are just laughable.

[Leopolds Ghost]

144. Laughable if you think the destruction of one major city "outweighs" the destruction of another.

I'm not laughing, though.

[vadawg]

148. dude can you not see that this makes katrina pale in comparison

we are talking about total destruction death toll at 140,000 and millions without water, food and shelter, i cant believe you dont see that this does totally outweigh katrina for human suffering and destruction..

[Leopolds Ghost]

151. This isn't a dick measuring contest. And given our track record with Katrina, it's a fair comparison

If we couldn't handle Katrina, and we REFUSE to rebuild New Orleans for the poor people who got ethnically cleansed and shipped around the country on buses (not allowed to get off inside the Louisiana state lines), and the DEMOCRATIC PARTY REFUSE to stop the continued demolition of PUBLIC HOUSING and SCHOOLS using Katrina as an EXCUSE, and refuse to prosecute the DEMOCRATS in Bobby Jindal's fucked up parish who shot at people trying to escape into adjoining (white skinhead Creole-run) parishes on foot, and the REPUBLICANS are actively hostile to life and limb of anyone Afro-Caribbean, what does that tell you about our likely response times?

If Obama can and DOES muster a good "military-grade" unarmed relief response of the sort Honore suggests, of the sort that would be mobilized if 13 US SOLDIERS were buried under one of those buildings, why is the US Gov't continuing to fuck over New Orleans and why would I expect them to treat any better Port-au-Prince?

[LatteLibertine]

73. The reports

I've heard from folks on the ground there, so far, looting and violence are isolated. Mostly people fighting for water in some cases. Most are talking about the dignity and resilience of the Haitian people.

Of course after many days of no food and water things are bound to start unraveling. I've done water fasts in ideal conditions for up to 10 days and it can be very difficult.

It's been said Haiti was a nation on her knees and now she is prone begging for help.

[Leopolds Ghost]

118. One looter is enough if they're black. A white looter is an isolated incident.

If it's a black community, one looter is supposed evidence of a trend. If it's a white community, it's all about how heartwarming it is that most people aren't crooks.

[Cleita]

111. Republicans.

Fear everything first. What a crock.

[allincompassing]

146. World Wide Strike Today

WORLDWIDE STRIKE TODAY, NO ONE GOES TO WORK! US & UN REFUSE TO HELP HAITI UNLESS IT PROMISES TO PAY 5 BILLION FOR AID. PEOPLE R DYING! TELL THE US & UN TO FEED AND TREAT THE DYING OR NO ONE WORKS. PASS IT ON!

[malaise]

149. Doctors need security

Gupta et al worked on patients until dawn this morning.
The Haitian government has given them permission to practice without the paperwork.

[applegrove]

152. It wasn't the UN that told them to leave. It was the Belgian team leader or someone like that.