I can respect the "kill the bill" sentiment. What I can't respect at all

[cali]

is the delusion that the bill can be killed and replaced with something better next session.

That's completely stupid. If the bill is killed, that's it for health care legislation for the next few years- at a minimum.

Harry Reid is not going to get rid of the filibuster. There's more than ample evidence for that. Next year is an election year. Dems are almost certainly going to lose seats. I don't know how many but it's very unlikely that dems will continue to have a 60 caucus. Fewer dems, harder to get health care reform on the agenda.

Whatever emerges from conference will be what we have for health care reform. It may improve things. It may make things worse. But that's it. It's either that or the status quo.

You don't need to like it, but reality is a harsh mistress. And that's the reality.

[MNDemNY]

1. still: KILL THE BILL.

[cali]

3. as long as you don't tart it up with bullshit about how we can get something better,

I can respect that.

[MNDemNY]

6. Eventually we will.

But this bill serves to entrench us further into a for-profit employment -based system that has been proven not to work. This bill will only make it harder to do real reform. I say let it (our current HC system) collapse, and it will,then we can do real reform.

[Kablooie]

19. Eventually we won't. We will lose the 60% advantage next election and won't get it back.

Government will be deadlocked for the rest of Obama's term at lease so there won't be any meaningful legislation to be passed after the next election.

[MNDemNY]

25. This bill does more harm than good. So it must die.

[Kansas Wyatt]

27. This bill will make the losses greater.

Obama blew his political capital on his deal with Corporate America and the Republicans. To continue with that failure, is only making it worse for the American People.

Remember: When the Republicans get back in power, and they will, especially with this alleged HCR bill, they will KEEP the mandates in place, but they will CUT & GUT everything in it that actually does help people.

[spanone]

21. eventually = 20 years

[Ms. Toad]

23. My daughter, and lots of others, don't have 20 years.

If we're stuck with the insurance system for another 20 years, we at least need to impose the additional requirements in these bills:

Guaranteed issue
Premium parity
Mandatory coverage of pre-existing conditions
No lifetime limits
Subsidies for those who cannot afford insurance

The bills are ugly, but they meet my minimum standards for insurance reform - which in the last 20 years has brought us only HIPAA (guaranteed issue and mandatory coverage for those who already have coverage, without unlimited discriminatory charging so the guaranteed issue is meaningless for all but the wealthy, left for the states to implement (which most never adequately did), and which very few people are even aware exist).

[MilesColtrane]

38. Democrats have held the Presidency and both houses of Congress for exactly...

12 years out of the past 44.

The years with that political alignment have been the only years in which serious reform is considered or any progress achieved, but it's no guarantee.


You can damn well be assured that nothing substantive will ever be done with a Republican majority in one or both houses, or with a Republican president wielding the veto pen.


It's easy to say let's wait 12-14 years for another possible failed attempt if you are covered now and aren't being forced to choose between paying a monthly premium or food.

[ShamelessHussy]

2. well, if it makes things worse, then I say, kill it!

my major concern is that after all this corporate appeasement we are gonna get stuck with a bunch of RW radicals in the years ahead as folks are so sick and tired of the reality of the status quo that they are gonna get themselves a new mistress, as this one is way too harsh.

[leftstreet]

4. Under the status quo I'm not mandated to purchase for-profit insurance

Kill it

[napoleon_in_rags]

11. Who is mandating for-profit insurance?

Can you give a link that shows that non-profits will be excluded?

[RoyGBiv]

5. I can respect sentiment ...

I can respect it the same way I respect the emotional attachment people have to inanimate objects.

But it's the sentiment behind the phrase that leads to the delusion.

The one thing I find truly irritating about all this is that the very people who scream "Kill the Bill" and then go on with this fantasy that something better will come along will also invoke Ted Kennedy's name on a somewhat regular basis. He learned that lesson the hard way. Many here seem not to have done so.

[sendero]

7. So..

... REAL health care reform, reform that lowers overall costs (the single most important factor by orders of magnitude) and actually delivers a reasonable percentage of health care dollars as ACTUAL HEALTH CARE, American attitudes are going to have to change.

The reasons this piece of shit bill was "all we could get" are many, but one of the main reasons is that people still just don't get it.

We have a "name my price" health care system. It is unsustainable and this bill does almost nothing to fix the actual problems.

Kill the bill.

[David Zephyr]

8. It's as much as signed already...and has been for weeks now.

Most of the drama the last days in the Senate was all show...even the Lieberman faux treachery at the last moment. Scripted. This bill, the bill that Russ Feingold said is the bill Obama always wanted from the beginning, has been been in the bag for a long time. What wasn't in the bag was how to break the "fuck you" news to the base.

The signing will be an empty charade to me and a terrible burden on the freedom of choice for Americans.

[ima_sinnic]

18. +++1

[chimpymustgo]

22. ".. how to break the "fuck you" news to the base". That's what these last weeks of Kabuki have been.

That's what the whole process has been, as the cheerleaders insisted critics keep their powder dry...sit tight...Obama's GOT this. Wait till the next phase..no, the next one...no THIS one...THAT one - as every decent provision was stripped away and we got stuck with nothing but MANDATES for more of the awful same.

Now...the desperate meme is: THIS IS THE BEST WE CAN DO FOR A GENERATION.

Sorry. That is just a steaming pile of bullshit. Thanks, Mr. President.

[area51]

31. +1 (n/t)

[amborin]

9. Kill the Bill! it's a disaster, a huge shift of taxpayers' $$$$ to big corporations, at gunpoint

[TicketyBoo]

17. I'm sure.

[Fire1]

10. I can respect it, too! No skin off my nose! Just concern

about the millions of low income people who will continue to suffer, needlessly.

[CrispyQ]

12. Here's my problem with the "pass the bill now & fix it later" sentiment,

which is usually based on the argument that Medicare was passed & then enhanced. We don't have the same government we had in the 60s. Since Reagan, our government & elected officials have been severely compromised by big money. Corporations have more influence in our government than almost any other time in history. We can't even get many in our own party to stand for democratic values! Once the repubs are in the majority again, & they will be, they will work like demons to rid this reform of anything good & leave the bad. And I haven't even addressed the issue of giving the for-profit blood suckers, who are largely responsible for the current health care disaster, greater root in our already failing health system.

I am not kidding myself that if the bill is killed there will be anything better anytime soon. I suspect that HCR would not be addressed for many years. But I am also a realist when it comes to what our government has become & I do not believe that a bad bill will ever be enhanced to benefit the People.

[elocs]

13. Nobody is going to get rid of the filibuster. The party in power always whines about it,

both Democrats and Republicans. It's not like Reid can just snap his fingers and the filibuster is gone. It's also very unlikely that the Democrats will hold the Senate forever either so maybe keeping the filibuster is not such a bad idea for those who have thought it through.

[Edweird]

14. It's clear that our elected representatives do not have our best interests at heart.

What they are proposing makes what we have not look so bad. When things get FUBAR, sometimes you just have to 'cut bait' and try again later.

[JVS]

15. How is that idea any more stupid that the current bill is likely to be improved on in the short term

Because I see a lot of people in denial about the bill's shortcomings being more or here to stay.

[cali]

16. well, that's not terribly realistic either, but it's more realistic than the

magic wand new bill thing. Why? It has to do with inertia, the status quo and crisis.

[chimpymustgo]

24. Enslaving the populace to the greed of the insurance industry may have WORSE consequences

than trying to get real reform later. THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW which scenario is "more realistic."

But I know I don't want to entrench this current calamity any further - and FORCE mandates with no cost controls. Taxes on decent middle class policies? Bullshit. YEARS for the leeches to jack up costs before this shit sandwich gets forced down our throats.

Retrograde abortion coverage. No thank you.

And quite frankly, the entire process has betrayed our President and Congress for the puppets they are. They gave the American people the big FUCK YOU with this bill. I say, fuck THEM. KILL the BILL. Perhaps STATES can begin to do some things to cut costs and provide better care. We're not going to get health care reform from THESE bought-and-paid-for bastards.

[Jester Messiah]

20. I don't always agree with you Cali, but you're right on this.

The current bill is as good as it gets. Even if the Dems had more than 60, there would still be slimes like Lieberman to kill us from the inside. Lieberman is just taking point because he's already been dead to the Dem base for a while now. He has the least to lose.

[quiet.american]

26. Yep. nt

[AllentownJake]

28. Don't disagree with you

However, when the most useful provision to struggling Americans does not go into effect for 5 years, I find little I can support.

[Kansas Wyatt]

29. Just Remember....

When the Republicans get back in power, and they will after this alleged HCR (SHIT) Bill becomes law, they will KEEP the mandates in place, but they will CUT & GUT everything in it that actually does help the American People.

NAFTA was suppose to be a good thing that could be 'enhanced later.' Still waiting.

Obama & Democrats, Inc. have already blown REAL Health Care Reform with this giveaway to the Insurance Industry. The only ones who will change it in the future, will be the Republicans, and they WILL make it worse for the American People than the status quo. Let the Insurance Companies fail on their own, then something will be needed immediately to cover the American People, because right now, it's only about saving the Insurance Industry.

[ThomWV]

30. Wait a moment - think about how it would work out procedurally and maybe you mind will change

Depending on where in the process the bill fails it may not disappear. If it goes down in Conference it is returned to both houses and from there back to the appropriate Committees. It is at that time, when the rules have divided the opposition for us, that the bill may be revisited to our betterment. What it would take would be public pressure on each of the Committee Chairpersons to all the issue to be addressed immediately. In other words if they fail this time we can have them get straight back to work on it. Who knows, maybe even give us what is needed - Single Payer fully funded by taxpayers according to their ability to pay from one end of the income spectrum to the other.

[backscatter712]

32. I agree. If the bill's killed, health care reform is dead for at least a decade, probably more.

There's no way that they're going to kill a bad bill, made bad because the Democrats couldn't cough up 60 votes for a good bill; then turn around and magically pass a good bill with the same assclowns in the Senate somehow voting for it.

If the bill is killed, all health care reform stays dead.

That's reality.

[MilesColtrane]

39. Unfortunately the trend has been toward...

longer and longer periods between attempts (due to which party is in power) and more spectacular failures when reform gains traction.

The last resounding success was in 1965.

Some people can't process that information.

[Hello_Kitty]

33. No more delusional than "pass it now and we'll improve it later".

If the Senate bill is the BEST we can do with Democratic control of both chambers of Congress and the Presidency, I'm not real hopeful for improvement.

[mochajava666]

34. With all due respect, passing a very bad bill

that benefits the corporations over the people is not something that should be supported, even if the leaders of my Party say so.

What concerns me most is that the process that produced this disaster will also hinder any attempts to save life on our planet as we know it by effectively gutting cap and trade. Unfortunately, our current circumstances dictate the need for some strong leadership, and this process has shown Obama to be powerless. In this power vacuum, greed and money have a much bigger influence, so we are going in the wrong direction toward any type of reforms.

As for passing a bad bill in order to fix it later, I'm still waiting on NAFTA (and other "free-trade" agreements), Welfare Reform, Social Security Reform, etc. to be "fixed". I'm still waiting on Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy to be repealed. Our financial circumstances dictate that health care costs must be curbed in order to fund our wars, therefore health care reform will get done. Nothing gets in the way of the military-industrial complex or Big Oil. Not even the health care industrial complex. Not yet, anyway, but with this bill, they may be able to play with the big guys in the future.

But then again, we are ALL just talking hypothetical situations, including Republican gains in 2010. The only reality I see here is a bad bill that benefits the corporations and strengthens the current corrupt political system.

[cali]

36. I'm not debating the pros and cons of the legislation. I'm simply stating

that if it's killed there isn't going to be a new "good" bill. Not for a long time. Oh, and some hypothetical situations are extremely likely- such as the repubs gaining seats in 2010. That's about as sure a thing as you can find in politics.

[mochajava666]

37. A sure thing? Really?

Last time I checked a calendar, I thought the November 2010 elections were about 11 months away. That's a lot of time for dramatic events to change all paradigms. I know what Nate Silver predicts. I also know that the party that has the presidency should historically expect congressional losses. I also saw Bush gain seats early in his presidency. I also saw how a natural disaster in New Orleans exposed Chimpy's incompetence where 911 didn't.
Obama will face many huge challenges between now and November.

I think it is more likely in these troubling times that Obama will get many chances to show why we elected him. Meanwhile, we will have to defend a bad bill that make us look like corporate tools, with the corporate mainstream media hypocritically picking us apart every day.

The only sure thing is that this bill is not only a corporate giveaway, but the process that begot this abomination will be used in the future to kill reform on all fronts. That's reality.

[MilesColtrane]

40. Democrats aren't going to gain seats in the Senate in November unless the unemployment rate...

drops by 8-9% points and Congressional approval ratings soar by 30-40%.

umm....sure, it could happen.

[mochajava666]

41. I assume that was sarcasm (undeserved)

Unemployment rate and Congressional approval ratings? Was that serious? Unemployment rate down to 1-2%? Congressional approval ratings?
Everyone hates congress, but loves their own congressman.

Not to get wonkish on you if you weren't serious, but midterms are usually about how energized and united the base is. Independents and low information voters also look for vitality, leadership and momentum.

How warm and cuddly has it been around DU lately? How is our base doing? Capitulation with the conservademms has ripped our base apart and this bill is the poster child of our illness. Defending this in November will not be a plus for us. It will remind everyone that Lieberman's ilk are running Washington, not Obama.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

35. Lies have momentum

This is a sore point with me because I have been arguing for some time that the bill cannot be fixed without killing it, and being shouted down by the most vociferous supporters of the bill.

The left was "frozen" with a never-ending series of dumb fantasies about how no step of the process was the last word and everything can be improved.

It seems that some were gullible enough to believe it. (Even Dean fell for it, and more than once.)

If you (not you, but "you") spend six months telling people that whatever they are objecting to that week is somehow unreal and will be fixed in the senate, in the house, in conference, in reconciliation, in unicorn land, etc.. then it becomes difficult to tell them the belated (and always obvious) truth.

Of course this bill cannot be killed to be fixed. But I'm not surprised that some don't understand that.

And everyone in the House who is currently talking about conference as anything other than a rubber-stamp of the senate bill is just fucking with their constituent's' heads.

The base-management strategy has been consistent from issue to issue: 1) It is too soon to object--you don't know what will be in the bill, then 2) whoops, it is too late to object--the bill is the bill.