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So, I got drawn into a discussion about abortion on Facebook…

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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 10:25 AM
Original message
So, I got drawn into a discussion about abortion on Facebook…
A cousin of mine commented on a Facebook posting I made by saying how horrible it would be if health insurance reform led to more abortions (or, as he put it, the “killing of innocent babies”). I explained to him that federal law already prohibits the use of taxpayer money for abortions. I also told him that I understand why some people want abortion to be made illegal, but that doing so would cause far more harm than good.

At some point, he referred to women who have abortions because they “want to have their cake and eat it, too” and also skirted the question about how to enforce the ban he seeks. He agreed (generously, from his point of view) that prison terms would not be an appropriate punishment for women who have abortions. But he did not say what would be appropriate. Bwlow is the text of my final two responses to him:
--------------------
The circumstances vary greatly. Abortion is one of those things where seemingly simple principles conflict with the messy reality of real life.

--What do you really want to do when a 14-year-old is impregnated by an uncle who molested her?
--What should be done for a woman in the 4th month of pregnancy who finds out she has an aggressive cancer and needs radiation and chemo? What if that woman has other children at home who need her?
--In some places, women can’t get late-term abortions even if the fetus has died. What about those situations?
--In some very rare cases, it is determined that a fetus cannot survive outside the womb and completing the pregnancy could put the mother at risk. What do you do then?

It’s true that those situations do not represent the vast majority of abortions. But, I would not assume that women generally take abortion lightly or just “want to have their cake and eat it, too.” That is very unfair. I think the best way to reduce (or eliminate) abortion would be to be more compassionate to and supportive to women in a tough situation, not less.

Another thing: I really do think that people who want abortion outlawed need to think through how such a law would be enforced. If there really would be no penalty for women who break that law, then what would be the point?
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Another thing about abortion that is tricky when you think it through: Roe v. Wade – which I am sure you abhor – really was never intended to pass judgment on the moral rightness or wrongness of abortion.

In Roe v. Wade, the court dealt only with when the government could get involved with regulating abortion. On that score, the Supreme Court tried to thread the needle by defining when the state has a legitimate interest at stake.

The justices could have said that the government’s interest begins when citizenship begins – at birth. They also could have decided that every human blastocyst is entitled the same Constitutional rights as, say, a 10-year-old child.

As a practical matter, neither of those positions would have been easy to back up in law or public policy. So, the court decided to set the beginning of “state interest” at viability outside the womb. Before that, the issue would be in the hands of women, their doctors, their families and their religious convictions.

Like it or not, that is the state of the law now. I do not think it will change any time soon, or that there really is a better alternative available that would work in the real world. I understand why people don't like that. But it is what it is. I think the pro-life movement wastes its energy and moral authority when it concentrates on criminalization as the "solution" to the problem of abortion.
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get the red out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. They really want an end to birth control
They want to end women's independence and voice.
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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. You got that right (nt)
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. I truly, TRULY, *TRULY* wish men could get knocked up. *TRULY*
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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I second that.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. You should ask him what should happen to the man that got
the woman pregnant? Should he be thrown in jail because he refuses to marry the woman? What happens when as your cousin says "the man gets to want to have their cake and eat it, too”? The man gets layed and washes his hands of any responsibilities of having to deal with the mother or the child.

Since your cousin doesn't believe in abortion I can almost bet that your cousin doesn't support sex education and birth control right? I believe that is called "wanting to have their cake and eat it, too” It's always a contradiction.

Finally, pose this question to your cousin, "If it is your child that is pregant, her life is immenent danger due to the pregancy and the Dr. tells you, your daughter will die without this procedure", what will your cousin do. Will your cousin stick by her/his selfish principles or will he/she save their daughters life.

People always try to make this a black and white issue and there are a lot of situations where life isn't easy and decisions have to be made.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. Very good responses. . Did you get any reply?. . . um, make that
Did you get any cogent reply?
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fl_dem Donating Member (444 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. its simple
you don't believe in abortions, then don't ever have one!! The self-righteousness of these people appall me, especially when it comes from a man, who has the fun part of pregnancy, oh he ejaculates..woo hoo....doesn't give him the power to tell me what to do with it. In my lifetime I've seen many anti-choice people make the choice to terminate when an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy affected them or their daughters and I made sure to remind them that at least they HAD a choice. Its all in perception.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. welcome to DU-- your post is absolutely correct- when it comes to THEIR situations,
these woman-hating, anti-choicers don't blink about having one.
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abluelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. That's the Bottom Line
These people spout their ideology until they are in the situation that needs real thought. Wonder how these people would feel if they were turned away from by a physician whose conscience told him/her not to perform an abortion on one of these right wingers who finds themselves needing it.
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. I don't understand why
women are always blamed for an unwanted pregnancy..it takes a man also. If the men were prosecuted when women wanted an abortion for these unwanted pregnancies we would see all the mess dry up.

I think also we should get up an push against the death penalty in these republican states. If they say something just say...well I thought you were against killing. They can't have it both ways.
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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. It all began with that temptress Eve, dontcha know...(nt)
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melm00se Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
12. one thing I have found
about the abortion debate is the fact that both sides claim the "middle ground" as their own when it comes to supporting abortions.

If you look at the polls, the American people are broken up thusly:

Legal Under Any: ranging between 18-23%
Legal Only Under Certain: ranging from 50-60%
Illegal In All: 18-23%
(this is all dependent upon the poll and the timing).

The fact is that the majority of Americans (who, combined, outweigh the extremes) support some limitations on the ability to obtain an abortion.

No right is an absolute and the opposite ends of the spectrum demand that it is.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
13. The problem is that the MEN also want the woman's cake
Takes two to tango. For every promiscuous women out there, there's an equally promiscuous man who ALSO wants the cake and to eat it to. But somehow, pregnancy is never the man's fault. Or problem.


Funny how that works.
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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Wait
Has "cake" become a euphemism for something?
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Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yes, lettum eat cake, is the right's answer to rape incest, the health of the mother.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. The OPer used it. Or rather, the OPer's friend did
So in the context of this thread, it's a euphanism for sex. :-)


Hmmmm... perhaps I've started the latest internet meme... :woohoo:
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
17. If only your cousin respected women
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