Is Kucinich willing to go without health insurance?

[Barack_America]

He effectively said tonight that no insurance reform would be better than that proposed by the House bill.

Is he willing to put himself in the position that his vote would put others?

Is he willing to walk in the shoes of the millions of Americans currently shut out from health insurance and health care?

It's a question I would ask of all those who voted against this bill, Democrats and Republicans alike.

[Hekate]

1. Good point. nt

[Barack_America]

40. Thank you. nt

[ProleNoMore]

2. No - He Said He Would Not Be A Sell Out To DLCers, Blue Dog Dems, And Republicans

eom

[ProSense]

5. He voted with the sellout Blue Dog Dems and Republicans. n/t

[ProleNoMore]

8. Yes - They Would Not Vote For The Bill Anyway - False Equivalence

eom

[Barack_America]

7. He said that no reform would be better than the reform on the table.

Is he willing to live with the consequences that "no reform" would mean to uninsured Americans?

It's a simple question.

[ProleNoMore]

10. The Bill Passed Is Not Much In The Way Of Reform - Go Read The Democratic Party Platform

eom

[Barack_America]

29. There is a difference between even "not much" and "nothing".

Dennis chose "nothing".

[saltpoint]

9. Dennis was playing cards with Lieberman's deck tonight.

And in fact he wound up voting with the DLCers, the blue dogs, and the Pukes.

[ProleNoMore]

11. Go Read The Democratic Party Platform - He Voted with The Party

eom

[saltpoint]

13. No, he grandstanded against the party's standard-bearer.

[ProleNoMore]

17. Per You - For Others He Stood Up For The Principles Of The Democratic Party

eom

[saltpoint]

20. If you have an alternate Democratic Party, who am I to interfere, but the

Democrats of which I speak are actual people. Obama. Biden. Conyers. Etc.

They're real.

Swear to god.

[ProleNoMore]

24. Well - All One Has To Do Is Read The Party Platform - If Your Real democrats Have Not

Then maybe there not democrats after all.

[saltpoint]

25. You can go indie at any time. I can't stop you. But DK voted

against his party in a spasm of ego tonight.

[ProleNoMore]

30. Already Indie Because The So-Called democrats Have Forsaken Their Progressive Roots

That's why I ardently support Dennis, he is the last true progressive democrat.

[saltpoint]

33. One notes the self-aggrandizement in your position.

You are pure because you support the pure Kucinich?

Yuck. That model isn't working for me.

Barbara Lee support the bill. Are you saying she's not a Democrat?

[ProleNoMore]

34. Sorry That everyone Cannot Be Satisfied - Have Always Supported Kucinich And Democratic Principles

Selling out ones convictions is a slippery slope.

[saltpoint]

35. Kucinich should re-examine his own, then.

There must be some reason why Democratic primary voters -- many of hem quite real, I assure you -- have resoundingly rejected his two disatrous campaigns for the nomination.

If the party wasn't worth much why would Kucinich seek its nomination twice?

[ProleNoMore]

36. The Party Platform Is Clear - Kucinich Voted The Party Platform

eom

[saltpoint]

38. Sorry. The bill was laid out clear and plain. He voted against it.

[ProleNoMore]

39. Sorry - The Bill Is Not In Agreement With The Parties Stated Platform

eom

[saltpoint]

41. Your Church Lady thing has nothing to do with the bill at hand or

with Kucinich's puerile defiance of it.

Sorry.

[Barack_America]

44. Shall we make that an "IOU" to be handed out to those without insurance...

...when they are denied care?

"We're sorry, but the HCR of 2009 was not in agreement with the party's stated platform. We will try again in the near future. In the meantime, we hope that you somehow manage to survive and, if you do, consider voting for the Democratic Party."

[tabasco]

64. Go read the republican platform.

They exist also, you know.

You think Democrats operate in a vacuum?

Stupid.

[GreenArrow]

62. unfortunately, on this issue, the party's "standard bearer"

is the biggest "grandstander" of all, unless you want to count folks like Nancy Pelosi and Max Baucus who mouth unctuous insincerities while crafting this insulting, half-assed piece of crap corporate giveaway. The foundation of the house is broken and they're busy painting the walls.

[Go2Peace]

26. Amazing - Folks should be mad as hell that we are not being listened to by our majority. But instead

we get this.

[Jennicut]

3. I doubt it.

I know he has his principles but realism makes you wake up to the real world after awhile. This bill would do good things for some of us here.

[EndersDame]

4. I suppose this bill is like DADT

a compromise to let gays serve in the military but not with any dignity. DADT is very stinky in my opinion and would not have voted for it and waited to work for something better.

[HughMoran]

60. Are you seriously conflating healthcare with DADT?

:crazy:

[AllentownJake]

6. This bill was awful

7 months of endless debate, a re-energized GOP base for this?

Little cost containment, mandates with a provision to send people to prison, and a public option weaker than a wine cooler.

[ProleNoMore]

14. The DLCers, Blue Dogs, Insurance Companies Are Ecstatic

eom

[Barack_America]

43. I think you missed the memo.

A bunch of Blue Dogs voted AGAINST the bill. Same with the GOP (at the bidding of the insurance companies).

It seems they are not ecstatic about it.

[Desertrose]

15. So because I can't afford insurance, I'll be fined & sent to jail.

Well that's just swell. If I could afford insurance, I'd already have it. Doubt this bill is gonna help me much.

[Barack_America]

45. You seem to be missing the bit about subsidies. nt

[Barack_America]

16. It was what it was.

But Kucinich said that "nothing" would be better than this bill.

Is he willing to experience that "nothing" himself?

Do you see how I would find Kucinich's vote for the status quo to be hypocritical when he is currently shielded from the horrors of it?

[AllentownJake]

21. Well I guess he could forgo his insurance and go to prison now

This is shit. Total shit. I already can see the ads in 2010...and like I've said in the past if 2010 is a bad night, the long knives will be out for the liberals who had nothing to do with setting this horrific agenda.

[Barack_America]

27. I am honestly less worried about 2010 than I am about my own mother...

...and father who are both without insurance due to pre-existing conditions.

I suspect I am not the only American with similar concerns.

[AllentownJake]

32. I have one too

However, I'm under no illusions that this bill has somehow made my life any better. I'm out of work, no prospects on the horizon, and I won't qualify for any assistance for 2 years because of what I used to make.

I'm paying $550 a month for a shitty Cobra plan right now and will pay more after that expires with this shitty bill.

[Enrique]

12. Dennis supports single payer, which would cover everyone

so maybe you should be asking, should Pelosi go without health insurance since her bill would leave millions un-covered, unlike Dennis's bill?

But that kind of argument goes nowhere imo.

[Barack_America]

19. Unfortunately, Dennis did not get to vote for "nothing" or "single payer".

He got to vote between "nothing" and an imperfect "something".

Dennis chose "nothing".

Is he willing to personally experience the implications of that?

[Desertrose]

18. I seem to recall Dennis saying that everyone should have the same

insurance Congress has.

Single payer for all.

[Barack_America]

23. So, if not single payer, then the status quo?

A status quo that he himself is protected from?

[CreekDog]

22. I'll take a Grijalva over Kucinich any day of the week

Kucinich's principles are good, but Grijalva has acted to improve the bill as much as he can but is unwilling to have nothing come out of this process.

Kucinich may be arguing Medicare for all 20 years from now, but I sure as hell don't want to wait that long to get something in between done.

[Fading Captain]

28. Forced by law to pay insurance companies money?

Yeah. I'd stick with the status quo.

This is the kind of legislation that makes the fucking lunatics on the right look like they know what they are talking about.

[Barack_America]

31. Congratulations on your good health.

You are truly blessed.

[johnnie]

37. I can't speak for him but...

Knowing his past and his convictions, he probably would. You should write to him and ask him.

[Barack_America]

46. I will.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I think that if he's going to ask Americans to go without insurance until we get single-payer, then he too should go without insurance until we get single-payer.

It seems only fair.

[Yellow Horse]

57. Can't DK figure this out by himself? That a lot of people can't afford to wait for "perfect"?

People are hurting. People are dying. A lot of people can't afford to wait for "someday" when we get single payer. We need healthcare NOW.

[derby378]

59. That mindset only applies to the military

I believe it was a Soviet admiral who once said "Better is the enemy of good enough." That's not the attitude we should have taken towards health insurance reform, because I'm still convinced millions of Americans are going to be hurt by this bill.

[Yellow Horse]

42. He did the same thing with Voter Verified Paper Ballots...

...dropped his support from HR 811 in the last Congress. Won't support the new Holt bill in this one.

In the last Congress, the HR 811 bill didn't completely ban direct recording electronic voting machines, so it was not "perfect" enough for Dennis and some of the far left loonies to support.

So in this Congress the sponsor Rush Holt re-introduces with a full DRE ban (exactly what these people wanted last time) and now these wackjobs are saying it's still not good enough. Now they want to get rid of all voting machines outright, right now, and get hand-counted paper ballots or somesuch that a lot of people (including me and a bunch a lot more powerful than me) don't agree with and is never going to happen.

We will wait forever if we wait for the 'perfect' bill. And in the meantime, as we face the 2010 mid-terms, MILLIONS of votes are still on paperless electronic voting machines made by Diebold and its cousins.

Smart people, acting REALLY stupid, make me sick.

[Jane Austin]

47. If he really said that,

He's saying the same thing as Joe Lie-berman.

[wroberts189]

48. He is willing to take a principled stand.... one I respect...

although I am glad it passed.

[Vidar]

49. Kucinish stood up against big insurance & mandates.

[ThePantaloon.com]

52. He didn't stand up to shit

He voted against any reform. He voted for the status quo.

[Vidar]

56. Standing up to shit makes a mess, just like this bill.

[LostInAnomie]

50. Psh... Everyone knows that DK doesn't need health care.

All he needs is "principle" and a chance to wag his finger and he can live forever.

[CakeGrrl]

51. Exactly. That's what I asked on another thread. Kucinich can afford to wait

for his dream bill.

Would he stand on principle and refuse his (and his spouse's) insurance until the uninsured for which he says he's fighting are covered to his liking?

How will HIS influencing and negotiating skills work with this Blue Dog contingent?

[Barack_America]

58. Yes.

Very well put.

[Kitty Herder]

53. The way I see it, Dennis voted against ignoring the healthcare issue for another decade or two.

This bill will accomplish little to nothing, but it will shut people up. That's the last thing we need. We need to be angry and loud in demanding real healthcare reform. If this passes, congress can say they've dealt with healthcare and ignore our pleas when we still cannot afford to pay for healthcare, with or without insurance.

[MSchreader]

54. I imagine he's done it before

Living in a car makes it hard for insurance companies to collect premiums. That should give people here pause. After all, he's probably the only one in the House who's ever been without medical insurance (or a home, or utilities) in his/her life (I can't think of any other, can you?). Perhaps he knows something you all don't about the implications of this bill. Just a thought.

[Fumesucker]

55. I don't have insurance and would probably get a subsidy under this bill..

And yet I think Kucinich is right, mandated private insurance is utterly vile and IMO unconstitutional.

I personally think the health insurance companies are pulling a "Br'er Rabbit" over this, "Please don't throw me in that briar patch, Br'er Fox"..

[Luminous Animal]

61. We've gone from "health care reform" to "health insurance reform."

How easily we've fallen into line as the goalposts were moved.

[Barack_America]

63. No, this still counts as "health care reform".

Considering millions of Americans have been denied health care in their denial of health insurance. It was always about how to provide health insurance to people, it was never about changing the way we practice health care (i.e. the patient-doctor relationship), which is what "health care reform" really denotes.

IMO.

[Bjorn Against]

65. No, and that is why he is pushing a plan that would cover ALL Americans

The plan passed by the House would not cover all Americans, it would merely prosecute people who didn't send a monthly check to the insurance industry.

[Barack_America]

66. He voted against a plan that would cover 96% of Americans.

He voted for the status quo in which 45,000 Americans die every year from lack of health insurance.

Is he willing to live the reality of his vote or not? Is he too willing to go without until his plan of choice comes to a vote? Is he willing to shun the private insurance that he decries, yet is covered by?

Is he willing to live his principles or just spout off about them?

[Bjorn Against]

67. This bill covers hardly anyone, it mandates that we buy coverage

Ordering people to buy coverage from private industry is not the same as providing coverage no matter how they try to spin it. The claim that this bill covers 96% of Americans is a straight up lie, if it covers us then why do we have to buy coverage?

[Barack_America]

69. Um, hate to say it but single-payer ain't free.

People have to pay for that too.

[Bjorn Against]

70. I never said it was free, but it costs a hell of a lot less than our current system

We pay more for health care than any other nation in the world, and this bill is not going to change that fact.

On edit: I should also point out that my post was not about single payer, it was about your false claim that this bill covers 96% of Americans. I find it interesting that you changed the topic so quickly when I pointed out that was not true.

[LWolf]

68. Why should he?

The goal is to make sure that everyone has access to health care, not that fewer people do.

His vote isn't keeping people from having health care.

The bill itself does that. There's nothing universal in there, and people with bad insurance, like myself, will continue to go without care because they can't afford it, even with the insurance.

[happy2bhere]

71. I wish someone would help me out

Are these numbers for real?

Crunched the #s, & it looks like by Jan/2010 I'll have health insurance for $80 or less/month.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6913410

I was not real happy about the mandated insurance until I read this thread above. It seems to me that if these numbers are accurate, this will help many low income people have health care that could not otherwise....and that seems like something that Kucinich would support.

Kucinich has taxpayer funded insurance now, but this plan would have insured his poverty striken family of origin for free. How could he argue with that?