You know, people need to really learn about mental illness and quit imputing

[Skidmore]

all sorts of preternatural qualities to people who are afflicted in this way. That young man at VT was failed by everyone, and we see this happen every now and then. Some tortured soul living in their own private hell commits a terrible act. Tweety has just managed in the last half hour to Mohammed Atta the guy and then turn him some loner seeking to act out a movie role and then did his version of the "Ewwww" shudder of revulsion. If you've ever worked with people who are in actively psychotic states, you would have some appreciation for the complexity of the human mind. I've seen individuals who were clearly delusional and paranoid cue in on stuff that you, in all your blazingly glorious sanity, would not. I've listened to very clearly articulated rationales for irrational behavior, and listened to people dart in and out of these states with interludes where they understood what psychic trouble they were in but could not inhibit it.

Mental illness is the cruelest of illnesses. First because of painful experiences that those who have it find themselves in throughout their lives, and then, because society would rather not deal with them and make it harder for people with mental health problems to get the treatment that would afford them some peace of mind. True there are those whose problems may not be alleviated by medication, but lots of people are helped by it and other treatments. Right now our prisons are functioning as warehouses for those with mental illness and they are being locked up without the benefit of any treatment. And, those who do not have the means are living on street corners and back alleys.

This young man committed a horrible act. But how he came to that point should also be a badge of shame for our society as well.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

1. K&R

Brilliantly said.

[valerief]

2. That's the real tragedy. He should have been stopped, especially

since he could have been stopped.

[Marnieworld]

3. Not just a badge of shame

But a Call to Action. Of course in these times where everything is defined as "Good" or "Evil" I doubt there will be much dialogue about this aspect of it. But unless we go to the root of it we'll never know how to stop it from happening again.

[BornagainDUer]

4. delete

[Sapere aude]

5. I grew up thinking I had all kinds of character defects. As an adult I found out I had ADHD and

still do. It was a real problem trying to be good all the time. As an adult I was clinical depressed and my in-laws kept telling me to snap out of it. I tried but could not. Now I have meds and neither problems bother me much when I take them.

I get so pissed at the anecdotal psychiatrists on this board.

[Raksha]

56. Same here - ADD but without the "H" part of it.

That's why I only realized it by accident four years ago, when I happened to leaf through a book in a library about adult ADD. Still haven't been officially diagnosed and not on any medications, but I hope to rectify that soon. This was after knowing all my life that there was "something wrong with me" but not being able to give it a name. Unfortunately, I wasn't the only one who knew either.

[shrike]

64. Here, here

I hear you loud and clear on that one. I felt like Sisyphus, rolling the boulder up the hill, only to see it roll to the bottom again, until I was diagosed with ADD, quite by chance. As well as with its co-traveler, clinical depression.

[gulfcoastliberal]

6. Lots of people develop schizophrenia in college.

My dad is the psychiatrist who first published the synaptic pruning hypothesis on schizophrenia. That when our programmed cell death in the brain goes wrong it may cause the illness.

snip

Other UC Davis researchers are looking at influences at a later stage in child development. Psychiatry professor emeritus Irwin Feinberg has spent most of his career learning about sleep. Along the way, that’s led to insights into diseases of the brain, including schizophrenia.

As children grow to adults, the brain continues to develop, Feinberg said, with a major reorganization taking place during adolescence. During that time, nerve connections or synapses are actually removed from the brain. This “synaptic pruning” clears some clutter from the brain by eliminating unnecessary circuits, although it also reduces the brain’s ability to recover from injury.

In 1982, Feinberg proposed that errors in synaptic pruning might create faulty brain circuits leading to schizophrenia. Before the development of this model, schizophrenia had not been thought of as a neurodevelopmental disorder, said Feinberg. Although the exact role of synaptic pruning in schizophrenia is still hazy, it is now widely accepted that brain development plays a role, he said.

Synaptic pruning could be one factor that uncovers a genetic defect leading to schizophrenia, said Feinberg. But he holds out the possibility that, in some individuals, no pre-existing defect—but the pruning process itself—leads directly to disease. “Both are viable working hypotheses,” said Feinberg.

http://ucdavismagazine.ucdavis.edu/issues/fall01/feature_1.html

[truedelphi]

8. Bravo for his research.

And other researchers ting in to this have attempted to allow the
But with the revolving door between The FDA and the major chemical companies' executives, things like Aspartame impair more and more children each year.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

27. What exactly does aspartame do?

As a kid, I had a 4 a day (or worse) Diet pop habit. So, as a freshman, what should I be looking for? (This isn't medical advice, but I've never heard more on effects except "it's bad for you'.)

[Name removed]

31. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[InvisibleTouch]

71. Aspartame is what's called an "excitotoxin."

Substances that overstimulate the brain neurons, and so can't help but affect behavior and cause long-term damage. They're actually quite common in our processed food supply, often added as "taste enhancers" by the huge processed food industry, which is ever trying to create "addictive" tastes. MSG is another such substance.

Here's a good book on the topic:

http://www.amazon.com/Excitotoxins-Taste-Russell-L-Blaylock/dp/0929173252/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-5512430-4778318?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176998991&sr=1-1

[EFerrari]

11. My husband wasn't diagnosed until he was in his 30s.

Kudos to your father. I wish we had a brazillion of him.

The symptoms can be very subtle until they aren't.

[maggiegault]

75. I was diagnosed when I was 29, and it took a major breakdown to finally get doctors to pay attention

I have been bipolar all of my life. Unfortunately it took a major manic episode, psychosis, and a suicide attempt to get the doctors to stop blaming my menstrual cycles.

Now I have the help that I need. I am one of the lucky ones.

[EFerrari]

77. That's awesome, maggie.

:hi:

[DURHAM D]

25. A few years ago a young man at the University of North

Carolina (a second or third year law student - Wendall Williamson) walked up the main street of Chapel Hill and shot and killed two people and wounded some police officers.

The young man's family brought a lawsuit against his psychiatrist for failure to keep him on his meds or something - I know the trial court awarded the shooter $500,000. Fortunately, the decision was reversed on appeal.

One of the things I remember from all of the chat back then was that schizophrenia often does not manifest itself in young men until their mid-twenties. The danger is that they are living away from their families - the people most able to detect a change in behavior.

Thanks for your post - helps give context to the anecdotal information I picked up at the time of the Williamson shooting.

[astroBspacedog]

33. Yep, as a matter of fact, -

This letter was published in todays Idaho Statesmen. Idaho does not rate very high when it comes to mental health spending.

Delling family also searching for answers
By Kathleen Kreller and Heath Druzin - Idaho Statesman
Edition Date: 04/18/07


"The parents of John Delling, who is suspected in the killings of two men and the shooting of another, expressed grief over their son's alleged crimes in an open letter to the Idaho Statesman.
In the letter, Delling's parents say they are searching for answers and express their "deep sadness at the loss and injury of those three fine young men." Delling's parents also appear to say they tried to get their son help but that his problems overwhelmed the people who tried to help him. 'snip'



A letter from the Delling family to the Idaho Statesman

"To The Idaho Statesman,

On behalf of our family, I’d like to express to anyone and everyone touched by the recent tragedies our deep sadness at the loss and injury of those three fine young men.

We have been grieving along with all of you and are still searching for answers as to why this happened.

Please be unequivocally assured that everything under the law and in our power was utilized to prevent anything serious.

One thing is clear. There was no preventative safety net in place to correct or rein-in a ‘potentially serious’ situation; no legislation, no mental health entity, nor any church-based aid could get a firm handle on this. John was very sick, and needed more than this system had to offer.

Our prayers go out to everyone,

The Dellings "

More -->
http://www.idahostatesman.com/102/story/79994.html

[mzmolly]

50. Young men and women are vulnerable of course.

You're correct, it's generally an illness that presents when a person is an adult.

[undeterred]

95. I remember when Dr. Carter and Lucy got stabbed on ER

That episode was based on a true story of a medical resident who was killed at Cook County Hospital in Chicago in the sixties by a schizophrenic having their first psychotic break. That television show is actually how I learned about it.

[mzmolly]

49. I've read this before it's fascinating.

Thanks for sharing it again.

[rodeodance]

7. I have worked with some people with mi and we do need to be careful.

[PA Democrat]

9. Well said, Skidmore.

And related to this issue, if you are fortunate enough to have health insurance, I recommend that you read what the limits are on mental health coverage. Sadly, treatment for mental illness is not determined by what the person NEEDS, but rather by arbitrary limits set by the insurance company.

People are discharged from inpatient facilities not because they are no longer a threat to themselves or others, but because their insurer will no longer pay. The whole mental health system is grossly inadequate. People are put on medication, but then there is insufficient follow-up to determine if the medications are working or if the patient is even taking the medication. Every form of treatment is determined by the insurance company's financial decision rather than the person's mental health.

[EFerrari]

10. You bet. And in focusing on this one individual, we are missing

the big picture.

IF WE DON'T TAKE CARE OF MENTAL HEALTH, IT WILL TAKE CARE OF US.

[moc]

12. Thank you so much for this post.

I posted in another thread how I wished this would stimulate a conversation about how we treat mental illness in this country. Words like yours need to be heard so badly. Thank you for your eloquence.

[Madspirit]

13. K&R

As someone with bipolar disorder, I appreciate the post.
Lee

[Forkboy]

14. Well said Skidmore.

[rocktivity]

15. DING DING DING! Skidmore, you're our grand prize winner!

The real tragedy here is that this young man showed all the signs, did get some attention and fell through the cracks anyway. There needs to be a more comprehensive health care system. If he'd been properly punished for setting a fire in his dorm, maybe he wouldn't have been a student there. And a comprehensive national background check might have prevented him from qualifying to buy a gun.

As a legal adult who could pass a background check, I'd like to be able to obtain a gun if I wanted to. But like my driver's license, that's something I ought to earn, and I suspect that's why Constitution does NOT say "Congress shall make no law abridging the right of citizens to bear arms." There's a middle ground out there somewhere, but the gun lobby has it blanketed in rightwing extremism and lobbying money. And I certainly don't accept delivery on the idea that the occasional senseless shooting orgy is just part of the price of freedom.

:headbang:
rocknation

[LiberalEsto]

67. The cracks are a mile wide

Cops have told me how frustrated they get because their hands are tied by our grossly inadequate mental health laws. I used to be a newspaper reporter and I covered a lot of police news.

Essentially, unless an individual actually harms himself or others, there is nothing they can do. Threatening to harm one's self or others also qualifies. But even an involuntary commitment under these criteria is generally restricted to no more than 72 hours.

In Cho's case, he was involuntarily committed by police after someone reported he had made a suicide threat a year or two ago. But he was released after one day. They had no legal right to keep him.

I believe involuntary commitment criteria should be expanded and the commitment period extended to 21 days.

[ecstatic]

16. I think what becomes confusing is when the act is well planned and thought out

Then it becomes a question of... was he impaired to the point of not knowing right from wrong?

[Skidmore]

18. If you've ever interacted with someone with psychosis, you understand

that people do not necessarily lose their ability to plan or conceptualize even though their grasp on reality is distorted. I remember dealing with a young woman who was extremely delusion and a danger to herself and others. I'll never, as long as I live, forget the agony in her eyes at a moment of lucid thought when she told me that she was aware of her psychotic behavior at some level while it was happening and remembered some of it later, but at the time of her active psychosis, she was unable to gain control of her mind. She let me help her that time, but eventually I was incorporated into her delusional system and her paranoia and she drifted away. I hope she has found someone else to help her.

I also grew up with a father who had paranoid schizophrenia. I watched him talk to radios or sit at the dining room table for hours staring at I don't know what. Other times, he ranted and became violently abusive. One time his delusions and paranoia led to him training our little cocker spaniel as an attack dog--and the dog attacked me. I was about 5 at the time. It went for my throat. I've never been entirely comfortable around dogs since then. Back when I was a child, there were no support services for families at all and the psychotropics of today didn't exist. Haldol was a relatively new treatment. When my father became lost in his psychosis to the point the neighbors started to be bothered, burly sheriff deputies would show up and he would go to the state hospital psychiatric unit for months on end. I'm not certain of what happened to him there, but I can probably guess because of the state of psychiatric care at that time. I feared my father. I often wondered what he could have been if good care had been available to him back then. He looked much older than he was and died after many years of not being able to relate to people consistently or to hold employment. It is a waste of a life to allow people in this day and age to suffer the terrors of this, quite often, treatable illness.

[ecstatic]

21. Wow. Thanks for that insight

I can't imagine what that must have been like.

[Virginian]

46. Wow, you just described my step brother's behavior.

I was 15, not 5 when I started having to deal with it.

When he was controlled by meds, he was the most wonderful person you could ever want to be around. Somewhere between the sick person and the Thorazine/Lithium person, I recognized that he was a good person with a bad disease of the personality.
When he was sick, he would sit and stare for hours. People would talk to him and there was not response from him. The TV irritated him. He would hear things that weren't being broadcast.
I started seeing my first boyfriend at that time. I was sooo embarassed for him to see my adult step-brother like that.
Fortunately, that night in December when I was 15, his violence was aimed at himself and not at the rest of the household. Fortunately, I woke up and was able to alert the parents to the monster in his head that was trying to kill him that night.

People seem to think that those who are mentally ill lose their ability to reason. That is definately NOT so. They just reason in ways that are not logical to us. Andrea Yates was ill. The fact that she called 911 does not make her sane at the time of the drownings.

[Morgana LaFey]

30. I have BIG problems with the legal requirement of knowing right vs

wrong. HUGE problems with it. We've all seen clearly plum crazy* perps who nevertheless didn't pass that legal definition of NOT knowing right from wrong.

Too, I've always considered it a sure sign of mental illness that people hurt other people and especially murder them.

The OP even says that our prisons are filled with unmedicated people with mental illness.

We've got to find a different standard for getting people the help they need if they've committed a crime.


* I realize this is a highly offensive term if applied to those who are mentally ill, but used it stylistically, figuratively.

[LostinVA]

35. I think most people who murder people AREN'T mentally ill

Andrea Yates is an exception to this. Those with personality disorders (sociopaths, etc.) are usually the ones who murder and hurt people. The mentally ill usually only hurt themselves.

What I've seen of his "manifesto" reads more than a bit like the Unabomber.

I've been the victim of a violent stalker, and Tech's shooter's actions reminds me very, very much of that guy's actions. etc. My girlfriend's stalker -- who threatened to kill me -- wasn't mentally ill. He was a sociopath and a criminal.

[AZBlue]

47. A sociopath is a mentally ill person.

There are different levels of mental illness.

Antisocial personality disorder (APD) is a personality disorder which is often characterised by antisocial and impulsive behaviour. APD is generally (if controversially) considered to be the same as, or similar to, the disorder that was previously known as psychopathic or sociopathic personality disorder. Approximately 3% of men and 1% of women have some form of antisocial personality disorder (source: DSM-IV).

I'm sorry that happened to you and your girlfriend. I hope he's completely out of your lives now - it's a very scary situation!

[ShortnFiery]

53. "A sociopath is a mentally ill person" but are often deemed LEGALLY sane.

If the person who commits the crime KNOWS that he is doing something illegal, they are held to account in the eyes of our Judicial System. That is, if they are, at the time, aware of the here and now. However, it's not a *clean system* with regard to such determinations.

People with Antisocial Personality Disorder are living in the here and now (no psychotic breaks) and are (if that is the only Dx) held legally culpable for their criminal behavior.

[Morgana LaFey]

94. That's one example of what I object to

Thanks.

[Morgana LaFey]

93. To me, sociopaths are also mentally ill

I don't get why you're making a distinction?? You certainly can't call them mentally healthy!

[Raksha]

58. Wow, I posted a very similar note before I read yours.

I too have huge problems with the classic definition of criminal insanity, "not knowing right from wrong." I hope the term "criminal insanity" isn't offensive to anyone here, but I don't know what else to call it. I'm referring to behavior like Cho's and the driving force behind such behavior.

[Raksha]

57. Would it be possible to come up with a different definition

for "criminal insanity"? The VTech tragedy has had me ruminating over how inadequate and restrictive is the traditional definition: "not knowing right from wrong." Very few people are so far gone they don't know right from wrong. I don't think even Cho fit that definition. Criminal insanity seems more like an impairment of the will--Cho knew right from wrong, but was unable to resist the compulsion to do what he knew was wrong.

[undergroundpanther]

17. Society would rather

fund 'nicey' things like pretty flowers along highways than get out of their damn cars and support public transport because poor or 'mentally ill' people might need it.And gawd forbid they have to sit near somebody that they don't understand that unsettles their "beautiful minds"

You know this head in the sand bullshit has got to stop .But the answer isn't sniffing out and rounding up the loons,locking them up or forcing them on drugs like Bush's New Freedom commission demands..

Psychopaths can be drawn to the 'helping professions" too .(Sally Satel is one of them)and these sadists that look so 'professional' can be so damn upstanding parents and families believe the "good doctor" can do no evil.
Just like what happenmed in the Church when parents refused to believe father so and so was a molestor.


Psych hospitals are not always staffed by compassionate people.In my days in the system I saw many compassionate staff get OUT of the mental health field because of the tolerated level of abuse directed at patients by staff with no sense of caring or shame upset them and deeply troubled them.
http://www.healingselfinjury.org/beinginvisible1.htm
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-edittdmental1feb15,0,3451912.story?coll=sfla-home-dots-utility
Sure some hospitals are great and help a great deal, but more often than not they only teach patients to"act normal" to avoid punishments,or loss of freedom because even staff get overwhelmed and their "out" is using behavior modification to maqnipulate and control. That game of reward and punish master and servant becomes a crude stick and carrot game to let staff delude itself it is changing someones life for the better.When all they are doing is fostering the appearace of obedience and not helping the person's pain at all.


Sad thing is all hospitals good and bad both loudly say they care and give quality treatment, but some don't because the staff don't care and get off on the control.
Some staff see their job like babysitting and it's all gravy and they don't get off thier ass to help anyone. Some programs strech the case to keep clients looking crazy on paper so it keeps the money rolling in for the "care prioviders" doing nothing.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p970558.html
http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/pblct/forum/e023/e023j_e.shtml
http://troubled-teen-help.awardspace.com/

There has been alot of scamming in the mental health system by greedy hospitals and scamming staff of programs. I have seen it with my own eyes and lived through it.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p981101a.html
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/1998/August/378civ.html
http://www.amazon.com/Bedlam-Profiteering-Mental-Health-System/dp/0312104219
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9900EEDC1F39F933A0575AC0A96E958260

People DO get abused in mental hospitals.BY STAFF and by other patients.

Because our culture is reluctant to condemn and enforce boundaries against abusers of power in positions of authority and trust.
Especially if they are good looking,charming or "know people".
http://www.psychcrime.org/whistleblowers.html
http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20050119-000004.html

There are ways OUT
http://www.avoiceforfreedom.com/Final1.html

As Reich demonstrated, civilization has demanded that we repress, invalidate, and ignore so many of our basic instincts that we have lost part of our humanity. We have lost access to our greatest resources ­ those biological impulses that belong to our being an organism in the natural world ­ particularly our orientation and defensive responses. Having lost our access to these resources, when we experience overwhelming or stressful situations, we are unable to negotiate through them, back to a self-regulated state. This causes us to grow even more distant from our orientation and defensive resources, and we inevitably lose our ground in relationship to life experience. Trust in the life process, within ourselves and in the world, is gradually replaced by fear. Having no confidence in our ability to cope with challenging situations, we become easy victims to terror. Leaving one's house can produce terror. Getting lost can produce terror. Talking to a stranger can produce terror. Facing an unknown future can produce terror. Our biological competency is greatly compromised and in its place is terror. We become afraid of life and its movement.

http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft9r29p2x5&chunk.id=0&doc.view=print

[Cetacea]

20. Funny how our government burned Reich's research.

One of the greatest minds in psychology died in a Federal prison just shortly before his release. That after having his lab seized and many of his research and books burned by agents.
Great post.

[undergroundpanther]

26. Certain people

Profit too much from mental illness to ever dare get at the root causes of it.It would be too painful and everyone in this world would feel some sting of shame...Because if we all were permitted to self actualize as we desired,we were all allowed to love create and be without fear,allowed to be happy and not be coerced by systems and powers that be to do shit that does not matter to make some asshole rich we wouldn't be so dependant and obedient to authority or systems and experts ,we wouldn't care about looking normal fitting in or playing make believe that nothing hurts when we are in pain,,we wouldn't need authority figures to tell us to obey bullshit and we wouldn't make profitable a market,and let it use our stunted desires and magnified fears and past traumas we deny to define who we are.We would love life and not fear death or abandonment and love each other as we are frailties and all too much to let the sorts of abuse our culture thinks is OK go on,as it occurred in public or behind closed doors or through any other way.

We would not be so atomized from each other and disconnected in how we think and relate to our world.We wouldn't be trying to control everyone else for shit that really isn't important,and we would be able to sort out real danger from bullshit.. Happy self actualized,satisfied people would have enough self love and love of others to call an abrupt end to the very things the psychopaths among us live to get off on and use to keep us all mentally ill .Domination ,suffering,cons, ignorance , exploiting sex or other human instincts,all forms of coercion and exploitation, cruelty, lies, wars, poverty,social rank games etc.

If we were healthy self actualized people our egos would not be so caught up in misdirected self defenses it would be very hard to manipulate their psyches with bullshit like the media or whatever psyops crap those with power wants us to swallow.

[Raksha]

61. undergroundpanther, I just want you to know how many of us

are gaining insight from your posts, even people like me who usually just read and rarely respond. I'm well aware that you came by that insight through some unbelievably painful experiences. I've certainly had my share of pain in life, but nothing like yours. It's an open question (one I'd rather not know the answer to) whether I could have survived such pain or not. But I want you know your hard-won wisdom is much appreciated, especially right now as we're struggling to come to grips with the VTech tragedy.

[vickitulsa]

51. Thank you so much for this insightful, thorough and informative post!

I appreciate so much your gathering all this info in one spot -- I'm saving it for future reference and sharing whenever possible.

I worked in the mental health care field quite a lot throughout my career and saw firsthand both there and in my own life just how serious are the problems with "The System" designed to deal with mental illness.

I'm not sure they have it figured out in any other country, but I know for a fact that the entire system is a useless and self-perpetuating MESS in America.

I happened to be in prison in 1990-91 on an idiotic pot charge and saw how prisons became dumping grounds for the mentally ill after Reagan closed many mental institutions or reduced their size and scope. I'm not saying those institutions were doing good jobs, but prisons do even worse jobs of treating the mentally ill.

This country is in big trouble, and the VT shootings are just the latest example of how wrong our systems can go and how much harm can come from our failures as a society.

I certainly don't know what to do about it, but the more people become AWARE of just what's really going on in the mental healthcare field, at least the more they will understand why things are so screwed up and dysfunctional.

I consider our culture in general to be very "sick," and getting worse at a pretty rapid pace, as you described in your second post.

As a young adult, I happened to meet and become friends with B.F. Skinner in his last years as a Professor Emeritus at Harvard. Skinner, the "father of behaviorism," believed that a culture or group was successful to the extent that the individual members of that group valued the GROUP's survival more than their own, and the group's wellbeing more than their own.

Selflessness and sacrifice for the sake of helping others is absolutely OUT in this country, while mindless self-aggrandizement and cliquishness and snobbery and bullying are rampant. I listen to kids these days and how they treat each other, and it sickens me and disheartens me. It's much worse now than it was when I grew up in the 50's. MUCH worse.

Young ones think nothing of hurling putdowns at their peers, tormenting them endlessly, and even doing violence to them if they think they can get away with it. "Targets" are selected, often by the "cool kids" in schools, and are harrassed and tormented endlessly and with great cruelty. They are humiliated and laughed at, and many if not most of the others looking on wouldn't dream of intervening to help the victim or criticize the tormenters.

Our culture is very sick, indeed, and getting worse. I guess it should be pretty obvious when a mental case like Shrub can be president of the country, and most citizens don't even recognize how sick he is, that we're in big, BIG trouble.

Not sure very many in our population grasp the obvious, however.

Sad times for us all.

Thanks again for your input, UP. You have it right on every count, imo.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

19. Very well said

Mental illness is horribly painful for all those whose lives it touches.

That this young man, with his mental health problems, managed to slip through the cracks is a shame on us as a society. We, as a society, need to asses the situation and repair the breaks that allowed this to happen.

[Bluerthanblue]

22. wow... thank you for this.

on so many levels.
thank you for putting it into 'rational' perspective.

blu

[ends_dont_justify]

23. Very well said, only one disagreement

It takes a capability of evil we can't ignore, to kill that many people too. If he was suicidal, he could have just made the choice to take himself and be done with it. He wanted sensationalism, hence the tape to the media. I believe he was a dark person, not just mentally ill. I do agree whole heartedly there is the possibility he didn't have to be that way. Both societies, that of korea and that of the united states, failed him and failed the victims. The societies of the united states also fail the US soldiers and people of iraq, many of whom may have never blown up civilians or become insurgents had that war never happened.

It was once said, "Circumstance creates a person." Don't know if it's true or not, but this is certainly a valid reason to take it into evaluation.

[Skidmore]

24. What is evil really?

I don't like using that word. Is it the inability or the unwillingness to inhibit our limbic selves? If your brain is wired wrong, perhaps you have a propensity to access the more primitive parts of the brain.

I tend to see evil in those who are willing to sit back and pit peoples against one another for personal gain.

[undergroundpanther]

29. To me

Evil is systemic domination,torture, control, by standing,denial and sadism.Deliberately abusing or breaking a person down like a bully just to get off on their suffering or use them sexually like objects or break them or deny them the necessities of life so they have to do what you want or to exploit them even as it hurts them and traumatizes them to the point they will never feel safe or at peace within or that they can't even trust the boundaries of their own skin will not be violated, that is evil. The domination of one person to rule over another in a social rank bullshit game that abuses the weaker is evil.

To me Abuse of a person who is weaker,not as strong,lacking information ..any abuse of power and exploitation of trust and exploitation of dependency in all it's forms is EVIL.
Causing trauma deliberately to control or destroy a person or make them obey you when they are not causing harm is pure evil. And our culture lives and breathes this stuff.

[LostinVA]

28. I don't think he was mentally ill, because o some of the things you mentioned

The Unabomber, for example, isn't mentally ill. You can be "nuts" and be sane. It's called personality disorders, what some people call "evil."

I'm waiting to see what medical records say.


****** I agree that the lack of resources for the mentally ill in this country is criminal.

[undergroundpanther]

32. SOME personality disorders

Some personality disorders are a DSM 2 criteria as in it is who you are,like mental retardation cannot be cured with drugs or therapy neither can psychopathy,sociopathy,narcissism or authoritarian personalities .
Not all personality disorders are like psychopathy. Some can be helped and managed or even cured like borderlines, dissociative,or avoidance or obsessive compulsive..Some personality disorders come from trauma(like dissociative) and can have co current mental illness.Or they even might be caused biologically like obsessive compulsive sometimes might be and can be helped with drugs and /or therapy.

Disorders like psychopathy, it is such a feature of who the person IS it cannot be changed or managed with drugs or therapy.
Psychopathy can be seen clearly in kids really early like age 2.

[Geek_Girl]

41. According to MSNBC his Manifesto was pretty incoherent

I would say the man was delusional and paranoid. He was acting on his delusions and paranoia. And yes paranoid schizophrenics can conceptualize elaborate plans.

[LostinVA]

42. Midlo had a good discussion about the schizophrenia angle in Will's thread

[hunter]

34. Thanks Skidmore.

I went ranting today against a particular post, not so much against the particular poster, but against all the cluelessness I've seen posted here on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=689121&mesg_id=692680

I appreciate your reasoned post very much.

[Geek_Girl]

36. I really do wish MSNBC would start a real dialogue about this man's obvious mental illness

It's making me so mad to see thier coverage. They got Cho's insane manifisto that is nothing but incoherent ramblings then try to analyze it as if this person was a sane cold hearted killer.

It's so damn obvious this man was paranoid and delusional. It doesn't take some PHD Pschychologis to figure this one out.

:grr::grr::grr::grr:

[Truthy Nessy]

37. What was this man's childhood like?

I am finding it just a bit too much watching the MSM and all the talking heads. What I haven't heard is what was this man's family like? Where are they now? This shooter wrote 2 plays that dealt with child molestation. Was he molested? Was he abused physically or mentally?

There are so many unanswered questions. I too agree that mental illness is a very horrible disease for the person who has it and those around him.

The government does too little for research and treatment. It appears to me that more and more Americans are showing signs of mental illness. Could it be the food they eat as well as the "entertainment" they partake in?

[Cetacea]

54. I think his plays are a glimpse into his childhood horrors.

Nobody seems to want to talk about that because it goes to family.

[TahitiNut]

38. Perfectly said ... and very needed.

:thumbsup:

[mloutre]

39. Amen! ... k&r, n/t

[sandnsea]

40. Doing the thing he was complaining about

Ridiculing him. It's easier than looking in the mirror. And then they pretend they can't imagine what in the world he's talking about.

[Marie26]

43. Sort of disagree

I know that mental illness gets ignored in this society, and that there is inadequate health care or counseling available. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. This person did receive counseling & psychiatric care - he was actually hospitalized temporarily. A teacher was disturbed by his writings, talked to him & referred him to counseling, which he apparently did not attend. She also referred the matter to the police. It seems like this person had plenty of opportunities to find mental health care, counseling & medication. I dunno. I agree w/your point in principle, but I'm not sure this case is the best example of that point. There are many mentally ill people who would never even contemplate a crime like this. The teacher mentioned that this person seemed not just ill, but MEAN. He just seems evil, for lack of a better word.

[Bluebear]

55. 'this person had plenty of opportunities to find mental health care'

What if they, in their psychosis, don't feel anything is wrong with them?

[Marie26]

65. Then what is to be done?

In this country, it is very difficult to force someone into involuntary commitment, and there's really no way to force someone to seek counseling. And in this case, he actually was committed in a mental hospital last year. I'm sure he received counseling, medication, etc. during that time. He was released when the immediate danger to himself or others passed. After that, who can make him take medication? Who can make him do anything? I know that the medical health care in this country is a mess - but this seems to be a case where the person did receive counseling, medication & even commitment. He had free health insurance & access to care. What else could the mental health community have done in this case? Force medication - how? Permanent involuntary commitment? That's a life sentence for no crime. I just don't see how mental health professionals could have realistically prevented this.

I think all of us are trying to find answers, all of us are trying to find a way that this tragedy could have been averted. But to a certain extent, we're looking for scapegoats. (My personal scapegoat is the college administration - why wasn't this person expelled after the stalkings, arson, numerous complaints? Why weren't classes canceled that day?) But that scapegoat might have more to do w/each person's own experiences rather than the actual fault for this crime. The more I read about this person, the more it seems like this was a disaster waiting to happen. He was a bomb waiting to go off.

[Skidmore]

59. This man received brief attention from a system that is

without the necessary followup he needed. You can only hold a person against their will for 72 hours. And, when the medications start working, if a person is hospitalized, they are released to outpatient care. We don't know how he faithfully he took his medication. Many people who decompensate do so because they feel feel okay, decide they aren't sick and quit taking medication. No, not all people with mental illness will decompensate to the point where they act out in this way. Mental illness is a debilitating disease and takes its toll over years, especially when a person does not sustained periods of lucidity. The current health care system is not set up so that people can be helped to maintain stability over time. This is why you see the cycling in and out of care. This is also why people with MI have problem getting and keeping jobs, having reasonable income, and suppport systems. Decompensation means that you act out at work and lose your job, and your boss does not hold it until you are able to function again. Decompensation means acting out so that the family and friends give up on you if your behaviors are particularly difficult. Decompensation means not being able to maintain relationships.

These people aren't evil A person with a thought disorder is not functioning the way you do. They can very well come across as mean or angry. This does not excuse his behavior. The cycling of decompensation could have been broken if our health care system wasn't the train wreck it is.

[hunter]

70. Another wise post, Skidmore.

Thanks.

The resources are not in place for continuing care, especially for someone who is not in a state of mind to aggressively pursue them.

Negative experiences with our broken health care and legal system are common. Very often someone who is mentally ill has good reasons to be wary of the system.

One of the biggest problems I see now is doctors who prescribe drugs that their patients can't always have access to, either for financial or situational reasons. If your insurance runs out, you lose your job, your housing, or you simply become incapable for any reason of keeping on top of your medications, you can crash far worse than if you hadn't been taking any medications at all. The higher up on the plane of functionality you are with your meds, the harder you can hit the ground when you fall. It's the difference between crawling into a brick wall and running into it as fast as you can.

Free pharmaceutical samples can kill this way. I've seen too many doctors handing out meds provided by pharmaceutical reps to people who can't possibly afford the prescriptions, or who don't have the wherewithal to return to any pharmacy or clinic in a reliable manner.

[LostinVA]

62. I agree with you, Marie

I think all of his actions show him as more having a personality disorder, not being mentally ill ala psychosis, etc.

[brg5001]

84. There are inadequate resources and big campuses are impersonal

He may have been "evil" but his writings and actions indicated that he was experiencing sociopathic thoughts and his incoherent diatribe (it wasn't a manifesto at all) demonstrates that this was a person who was deeply wounded and wanted to exact revenge against his perceived "enemies". Many indviduals who develop psychoses show signs of breakdown beginning in their late teens or early twenties. He was ill AND mean, and people who are sick and mean can exploit our individualistic society perfectly. It's too easy to go under the radar. We need to drop the privacy wall just a bit and require mandatory commitment when it's clear that a time bomb is ticking. Universities used to be required to act as substitute parents, looking out for the welfare of all involved. Now, it's every man (or woman) for him/herself. That's not acceptable in an environment where students eat together, sleep together, and go to classes together. There's too much vulnerability.

I'm sure that most of us on DU are aware that we are WAYYYY off the chart on the individualism scale relative to other societies. Well, we've just seen the downside of that. This guy wasn't a lab rat in a science classes...he was an English major whose writings were known to a lot of people. He was also a stalker, which is usually the first clue of a problem.

(Edited subject line for clarity)

[redacted]

44. HEAR HEAR! Well said Skidmore.

[pacalo]

45. Thank you so much for your post.

There needs to be so much more help available for those with mental illness other than just keeping them medicated -- I'm talking about long-term health care facilities. Right now, the only long-term facilities available are the jails; short of that, patients are kept in health care facilities only when an episode occurs & only long enough to regulate the proper medication for their particular body chemistry.

Society needs to do better for mental health care, most definitely.

[mzmolly]

48. Skidmore, you need a journal. I wish I could add this post to mine.

So very well said! :toast:

[Skidmore]

60. Feel free to post to your journal. I have one, just don't remember

that it is there and forget to post to it.

[Up2Late]

52. Thank you. My family had been dealing with exactly what you describe since 1981...

...when my Brother had his first major breakdown, which I witnessed first hand, as I drove him home from the University he was about to withdrawal from.

Luckily, my mother was an activist from all the way back to her days in the NAACP and the Urban League in the 1960, working to get Learning Disabilities added to the Americans With Disabilities Act passed in the 1970s so that I could get the help I needed to get through school and then serving for more than 10 years on the National Board of NAMI.

Due to her efforts, my brother is living and working on his own again, and making a better living than I ever will I might add.

He was one of the lucky ones. Unlike two of my closest friends who both had Depression or Manic/depression and who both committed suicide. One in 2001 by blowing his brains out and the other by taking a OD of Tylenol and Alcohol in July 2006.

Neither got the help they needed because of the stigma of Mental Illness.

[Mad_Dem_X]

63. Excellent post

"I've seen individuals who were clearly delusional and paranoid cue in on stuff that you, in all your blazingly glorious sanity, would not."

That line in particular got me. Well said.

[hippiechick]

66. Yes. Thank you.

:pals:

[autorank]

68. Very well said! n/t K&R

[InvisibleTouch]

69. I just wonder if there was any evidence...

...that he really was picked on and harrassed in school, as he claims? None of the other students, to my knowledge, has said something like "Yeah, no one liked him," though some said he was strangely quiet and unresponsive when talked to. Of course no one is likely to say, "Sure, we used to ridicule him all the time," even if it was true. So I wonder if that element really was involved, or just something he was imagining?

[hunter]

73. It doesn't matter here.

Not one bit.

I was relentlessly bullied in middle and high school, and that did contribute to my problems, and I would've been in a better place mentally if I hadn't been bullied, but you can't find the sort of meaning here that could make your responses to this tragedy any more appropriate.

Whatever was going on in his head there was something broken about it, and whether it was imaginary or not doesn't make any difference. If we start thinking in those terms, if we say it was imaginary, than we are simply dismissing it as something that couldn't have been prevented.

I can't think of this as something that couldn't have been prevented because I have some grim personal experiences that are very directly attributable to this society's utterly bizarre attitudes about mental illness.

[EFerrari]

78. If it happened on the inside instead of the outside, it still happened. nt

[bleedingheart]

72. could not agree more...

[countryjake]

74. Compassion vs. cruelty

I missed reading your comment earlier, so I've been increasingly sad and disgusted with so many topics here picking this young man into an inherently "evil" being, along with all of the media coverage in the past few days, with noted newsmen giving on the spot "diagnoses", folk who've been trained as journalists, (and not even very good in that field) taking it upon themselves to "analyze" and then condemn this guy who appears to have been merely a symptom of our own society.

Having dealt all of my life with a loved one who has struggled with some form of mental illness (undiagnosed), I appreciate the points you make. I've seen inside the complexities and quirks and pain such disease can bring on, so as an adult, I've usually been able to note when others exhibit uncommon tendencies and tried to relate with as much compassion that I can muster, to gently encourage and help those friends recognize or admit something may be a little "off" and stuck with them to jump thru the hoops required if they sought help. I've also witnessed that "help" fail them completely. Knowing many folk who've been locked up, survive in this "land of plenty" with nothing, or have been completely overlooked, ignored and abandoned, that line the fellow spoke in his manifesto about "the blood being on our hands" rang very true, to me.

This country has a long way to go in understanding and working effectively to help those they are so quick to label weird, sick, mean, or evil.

Thanks for your caring topic.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

76. They just keep cutting more and more funding, You can't get health insurance either.

Even if you're taking something as minor as an anti-depressants - the health insurnace companies won't touch you with a ten foot pole.

[Hidden Stillness]

79. Bigotry Against Mental Illness, Disguised as Compassion

The thing that I don't like about threads like this is the common assumption that "mental illness=violence" and "violence=mental illness," despite the fact that there is a negative correlation between psychotic states and violence, and that violence only increases, if it does at all with an individual, when the psychotic episode passes and more "normal" thinking returns. Schizophrenics are far more likely to be the victims of crime than ever to be the attackers, they are seldom believed, and they are labelled "psychotic killers" etc., even when there is no evidence of psychosis, and it was not delusion fixable by a magic little pill, but a sustained, built-up grievance and hate that led to the violence. You don't want to recognize your own face in the mirror, but instead put it on a target group, then claim "sympathy" toward them. Worst of all, the sloppiness of the "mental illness" labelling just flips it around from target to target until it has no meaning at all.

With some of the details coming out about the planning, practice, chaining the victims into the rooms, the pre-planned media presentation, etc., etc., I have never heard of a schizophrenic able to pay complex attention on this level, with many levels of planning and organization at once, and I have never heard of a schizophrenic with all the directed malice necessary for it. Schizophrenics live in a world of fear, (a family member is schizophrenic), and voices--and no, the voices do not just stereotypically tell them to "kill." The kind of anger you often find with schizophrenics, accusing, imputing "motives" to you, etc., although very stressful and wearing, are not violent. It takes something else. Your weird refusal to admit the existence of conscience or intentional cruelty, I will not bother to address, (especially not the peculiar use of "preternatural" for it), except that we hate them "X"tians, don't we? Modern compassionate thinking.

The claim that "we" or "they" or whatever failed this murderer is also odd, considering all the many attempts made by women at the university to get attention for this thing, and they were ignored. Seems to be a refusal to help THEM, and to let the male's abusive behavior go. Of course, when you believe that everything is "paranoia" and "delusion"--not my group; theirs!--then addressing the vengeful hate of someone with no conscience and a will to inflict pain, will not sink in. Quick question: do you believe there is any such thing as a hate crime, murders committed against gays, for example, or are they all "obviously mentally ill"? Mentally ill people do not express this will to cruelty; it is extremely rare, muh more rare than for the "normal" population--it is not mental illness. Have you ever read some of the spitting hate of some DUers on the rape threads? They aren't all "mentally ill," are they? I thought they hated women. Read any of the "conspiracy" threads, with all the loony highly developed scenarios--are they all mentally ill? This is what I mean by the sloppiness of the attribution.

Also, the part of your post where you mention prisons and the lack of treatment there, although it racks up the votes, does not make any sense either. Prisons, sadly, are about the only place with first rate mental health care for free, and many people have had their first accurance diagnoses and treatment ever, by being sent to prison, where staff is well aware of the horrible system that sends them there, by not believing them in court. The problem is that Republicans have dismantled the entire State mental health systems and coverage. Also, as further proof that schizophrenia is not the link to violence, nowadays, because so many people are never completely helped by psychotropic drugs and the voices in their heads never stop, many psychiatrists today teach people how to try to make friends with the voices, ignore them, or recognze them as their own thoughts. They never go away; some percentage of the population is never helped by drugs. As tragic as it is, it shows that the mantal illness and psychosis is still there, yet they can be helped to regain a part of their lives. They do not return to life because the delusions are cured; sometimes, they are not, but it was okay, because that is not where the threat of violence comes from. Yes, it is a terrible situation.

Psychology and "anger management" classes do not work for abusers and grudge killers, because they are mean and vengeful--whether you like the words or not--and not "paranoid" or delusional. It is harder to face the fact that many people separate themselves from society, become more and more alienated, and develop real hatred toward either a target group, or society as a whole, and no little pill was going to get rid of "chemical imbalances," or the like. It needs philosophy more than medicine. It seems to me that the only helpful information that I have heard, if true, is about the possibility of abuse suffered as a child. That would explain the increasing rage, anguish, and feeling of injustice, the increasing thoughts of violent revenge.

Again, my main point is that I worry about the immediate pinning of all this on "schizophrenics," etc., with no proof other than, "It's GOTTA be!" rather than facing that we all talk to ourselves and yell at the TV set when we are alone, we all have fears and resentments, etc., and if they were told, all the silly people would label that "mental illness" and "paranoia" just like that, too. Wait before you blame--it may end up being your group, "normal" people....

[NorthernSpy]

82. THANK YOU for saying that!

Thank you for saying that, Hidden Stillness. I wanted to say the same thing, but it was just too tiring to put my feelings into words.

But you've said it all very well.

[Skidmore]

90. Some of your points are well taken, However, I can only

speak from my own experiences and didn't intend to try to write a treatise on disorders but to comment on an inadequate health care system for people with MI and a cultural stigma that is still great.

[EFerrari]

98. Have you read Droopy's post?

:)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=701336&mesg_id=701336

edit: added link

[EFerrari]

80. You know, Skidmore, the thing that gets to me after all these days

is knowing how many people had an opportunity to intervene and didn't. Or, who tried and were rebuffed.

That teacher tried. The cops tried. The judge that ordered him into the hospital tried. Who else was aware? His parents, his roommate, the girls he stalked, staff at the hospital including docs, probably psych techs, maybe a social worker.

We're talking about say, 15-20 people who interacted with him and who made or did not make a gesture and decided they couldn't do anything else when the "system" pushed or nudged them away -- because that's how we handle mental health: we isolate the sufferers as if they are contagious and we discourage people from interacting with them.

Which effectively shuts down important communications like: "My roommate doesn't speak to me and he's scary. Maybe someone should check him out." :(

Imho, there's ALWAYS something else you can do even if it's only to keep repeating your message like a parrot and in people's faces.

It's hard to do, though. During my advocacy for Doug, all kinds of wacky motives were also imputed to me. It was often hard to let them slide off of my back and keep keeping on. But, that's exactly what you have to do.

fwiw

[bling bling]

83. I'm really getting fed up with our models for dealing with mental illness.

You're exactly right. People did notice, and this guy still fell through the cracks.

Personally, I feel like the vast majority of people with mental illnesses fall through the cracks.

The whole system is in need of a major renovation. I've found it incredibly frustrating to deal our system to the degree that I've almost felt *crazier* AFTER seeking help than I did *before* I sought help. I've been mis-diagnosed by at least two Psychiatrists who made me feel *crazy* because I didn't agree with their assessments. But who do you complain to? Who will people believe, you or the Psychiatrist? It's truly maddening.

There needs to be a model of mental health care whereby there is a team of people involved. Someone to make sure the person gets through the system, like a case worker. And the diagnosis ought to be made by a team made of up an MD, an RN, and a psychologist or a therapist. The MD or RN can monitor the medication and the therapist can work on cognitive and behavioral therapy.

One day, this will probably happen. But unfortunately I'm afraid a lot more people will have to suffer under this system until more people finally realize that it simply isn't effective.

[EFerrari]

85. The so called "team" tried to make me feel crazy for bothering

to try to get help for Doug. Was that a trip! :crazy:

And I agree 100% about a team model.

The World Fellowship for Schizophrenia and Related Disorders has a great program called "Families as Partners in Care". They are worldwide but iirc, HQ in Canada. America would *hate* it because that would mean community oversight -- accountability.

But that, imho, is what we need. So when a sloppy clinician or any other player messes up, there are community consequences or a community safety net to minimize the damage and to bring the situation back into balance.

[bling bling]

87. I think there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe just not for us.

I really do feel very positively that mental health care in this country will improve as more and more people start to see how ineffective the current system is. I'm just thinking it might be a little while yet for that to happen...

I have absolutely no doubts in saying that a good system for mental health care in this country would have made a crucial difference in the quality of many years of my life. I don't blame anyone or feel cheated by anyone or anything in particular. But as time goes on the more frustrating it will be to see this largely ineffectual system go on unchanged.

[EFerrari]

88. I agree that you can't keep good ideas down for long.

:hi:

[mdmc]

81. kick

for the sanity

[IronLionZion]

86. As bad as it is for mental health patients, it's even worse for Asians

I'm Indian but I'm sure Koreans might feel similarly. In Asian communities, mental illness is something that is ignored as if it just plain doesn't exist. People who seek treatment or are being treated will often be shunned/humiliated as being weak or hypochondriacs or even seeking drugs. This is all despite the advanced education and over-representation of Asian-Americans in the healthcare field. And that's a damn shame.

My grandfather has obvious depression and alcoholism. But there's nothing we can do about it because he lives in India in a culture that looks down on anyone who seeks treatment or admits ot having mental illness. He won't go for treatment because "people will talk about him", and we can't force it. He doesn't listen to doctors, why would he listen to his grandson?

I'm really curious as to how Cho managed to be an English major. Healthcare, science, and technology are the big fields for Asians, especially recent immigrants. Whatever, my sister is an English major too, but I chose IT and business and my brother will likely choose medicine.

[bling bling]

89. That's a problem.

And it's interesting considering sometimes I hear such statements as Americans are the only ones that even have mental illnesses. "Just look at the Japanese, they don't have ADHD (or whatever it is), look at this country or that country, Americans have 75% more documented cases of (insert mental illness). It leads one to believe we're incredibly over-diagnosed here. Or that there's something in our water. But whatever it is, we're alone.

Even still, all races and cultures of Americans are largely still in a state of willful denial about mental illness. It may not seem like it because it's talked about more in the media. But it is a pervasive problem nonetheless.

[IronLionZion]

91. Americans are over-diagnosed and very heavily medicated

but it's there are some who really do need it but don't get it for various reasons including the social stigma or the cost.

[EFerrari]

96. That's an important point, imho. My family comes from Central America.

We are close enough to indeginous culture to where we turn our faces to the wall rather than get a flu shot. It's just the way we are. Of course, as a whole, we are all trying in different ways to change that but the pull of thousands of years of culture is very strong. :shrug:

[IronLionZion]

99. Yup and don't get me started on traditional herbal medicine

My grandfather swears by ayurvedic medicine and it's lost on him that he's very unhealthy. I just look at the ingredients that go into it and know it has to be bad for you. Some people seriously think they can cure horrible diseases like cancer and HIV with some herbs.

[TexasLawyer]

92. wow-- well said

Thanks!

[BrklynLiberal]

97. Too late to recommend, but I sure as hell can give this post a kick.

Very well said. Sorry more people are not seeing things as clearly.