The lie that "if everyone had been able carry a gun, the massacre could have been stopped"

[brentspeak]

Remember the name 'Kyle Aaron Huff'? Already, that name is fading into obscurity, given that this country suffers gun massacres so often. He's the guy who shot to death seven Seattle residents in the "after-rave party" massacre last year. Seattle, of course, is in the state of Washington, which allows residents to carry a handgun with no restrictions. Needless to say, the house where the massacre took place was not a "gun free zone".

The name 'Sulejmen Talovic' is also quickly becoming forgotten. He's the one who shot to death five people at a Salt Lake City shopping mall just two months ago. The shopping mall wasn't a "gun free zone", and almost anyone is allowed to pack a pistol wherever they go in Utah. He shot a total of nine people until an off-duty cop -- not a civilian with a CCW -- confronted him with his own pistol.

If the above names are unfamiliar to you, then the name 'Mark Barton' is really going to be a question mark. He was the Atlanta nut job who, in 1999, shot 21 people at two brokerage houses, killing 9 of them. Again, neither brokerage house was a "gun free zone", and Georgia residents may carry pistols on their persons.

So, how come all these people got shot to death, even though they weren't in a "gun free zone"? I thought the fact that the Virginia Tech students were "disarmed" is the reason they all perished!

It couldn't have anything at all to do with the fact that many states allow guns and ammo to be handed out like candy to practically anyone who wants them -- handed out with almost no proper, legal scrutiny, could it?

[AndyA]

1. Virginia's gun laws really suck.

No registration. No safety training.

They really could almost hand them out to new residents when they get their driver's licenses.

"Here's your new Virginia driver's license, and an Uzi. You might want to take a gun safety course at some point. No need to register it or anything, it's our gift to you...enjoy your life in Virginia!"

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Response to that: "Tell me how that whole concept worked out in the wild west again?"

It didn't. It just caused more deaths.

[naboo]

3. A guy called into a talk show I was listening to and said

that he was from Georgia, I think, and that most of the people in his town (can't remember the name) used to drive around with gun racks on the back of their pick ups loaded with rifles. He said there had been some kind of similar shooting there about ten years back and he said "you know what? Not one of those guys with rifles and gun racks stopped it"

[chaska]

4. Jesus! a campus full of teens and twenty-somethings armed to the teeth....

What could go wrong? That's gotta be the stupidest thought anybody ever had.

[Lisa]

11. not to mention us "absent-minded professors"

I know that some folks have suggested that profs and instructional assistants be armed. Well, I can't hang onto a pen for longer than 3 months, even when I've got a place in my pocket or handbag for it! The only reason I haven't lost my glasses so far is that I'm wearing them all the time.

A stroll through my workplace reveals unlocked offices and study carrels, jackets and purses strewn all over the place with wallets left unattended -- factor in the number of stressful and unhappy situations that the average student, teacher, or staff member experiences during a term -- talk about accidents waiting to happen!

And also there's the fact that a faculty member was responsible for one of the Canadian campus shootings.

[youngdem]

5. Guns are security blankets - and they don't work as personal protection

If someone walks into a room with a gun drawn to shoot you, you are likely dead, even if you have it holstered. You just simply can't stay aware with the safety off all of the time, and even then, you are still likely dead.

You have a slightly better chance of perhaps intervening if there is a multiple random shooting, because the attention isn't on you, BUT...

Incidents of multiple, random shootings are SO GODDAMNED RARE that it is STUPID AS SHIT to make carrying concealed weapons by young adults public policy to counter it is just the height of insanity because of the absolute guarantee of so many other incidents as a result of the weapons that it would cancel it out many times over.

The world isn't 100% safe, and it is the height of insanity to make the world less safe and less free in a CLEARLY futile attempt to make it more safe EVERY FUCKING TIME something goes wrong. There are 300 MILLION of us running around, many of us treating each other like shit. With all of the anger and all of the guns, it is frankly AMAZING to me that there aren't such shootings every day.

The world has rarely been safer than it is right now, yet we all act like if we don't pad every wall we are gonna die. NEWS FLASH....You're gonna die one day anyway.

PLEASE everybody, let's stop legislative or policy reaction to every single reminder that life is sometimes tragic.

[sinkingfeeling]

6. Don't know if many of you read Eric Alterman's blog, but last year an Army

captain (is that what comes before Lt.Col.?) wrote there regularly about live in Iraq. Today, Lt. Col. Bob Bateman is on a rant about this very issue:

" But what really puts me over the top is one particular brand of NRA stupidity. That is the myth of the Wild West. In other words, if I hear one more stupid gun-loving sonuvabitch talk about how, "Well, if they just had allowed all those students to have guns, this lunatic at Virginia Tech wouldn'ta got far," I am going to slap his dumb ass on the first plane smokin' for Iraq, where I would like to personally drop him off, with as many guns as he would like, in Dora (that's a particularly nasty South Baghdad neighborhood with which I am familiar).

Yes, Dora would be perfect. In my mind's eye I am imagining plopping said gun nut off outside the blue-painted major police sub-station, just about six or seven blocks from another walled-in compound which is now a police barracks (or, at least it was, last year.). As a microcosm, Dora should be the NRA's dream town, as it perfectly matches the NRA "Wild West" theory of what is needed in a society: honor is important to the individual; the family is the most important part of society; all of the inhabitants are very religious (except for when they are not); and absolutely everyone has at least one gun.

In fact, I would very much like to personally place the CEO of the NRA, Mr. Wayne LaPierre, there right now. What'ya say, Wayne? Want to experience a world where everyone has a gun? C'mon, buddy, I'll even let you hump the pig.

(That means, "Carry the M-240 7.62 mm machine gun," people. Get your minds out of the gutter.)"

http://mediamatters.org/altercation/index

[jpgray]

7. Exactly.

[beevul]

8. It's funny...

It's funny how "if everyone had been able carry a gun, the massacre could have been stopped" turns into "a campus full of teens and twenty-somethings armed to the teeth".

With no thought given to the fact that verry few would opt to carry. With no thought to the fact that many 21 year olds DO carry.

""

And with no evidence to support any of this "wild west shootout" theorizing.


With concealed carry having become as big as it is, surely you can find something to support this type of theorizing, as much as it seems to happen.

And IF you mean by almost no proper, legal scrutiny to describe federally mandated background checks AKA the brady law I might say you have your facts verry wrong.

[Hobarticus]

12. "With no thought to the fact that many 21 year olds DO carry." Really?

None that I know. Got some facts to back that up?

it's this very irrational type of fear that makes everyone else suspicious of concealed-carry advocates. It is simply not a sign of a stable mind to walk around assuming that everyone around you is packing with evil intent.

And by the way, thanks to loopholes in gun laws, almost 40% of gun sales between private individuals are invisible to law enforcement.

I'm not talking about out of someone's trunk; these are at gun shows, in classified ads, swap meets, whatever.

40%! Anyone of those guns will kill you 100% dead.

So yeah, I'd say it's fair to say that a significant portion of weapons exchange hands outside the law.

[beevul]

13. Really.

I know a couple. And even if you don't take my word for it To suppose, that in all the CC states in that map, that there AREN"T many 21 year olds that carry...would be preposterous.

"It is simply not a sign of a stable mind to walk around assuming that everyone around you is packing with evil intent."

I don't assume that. I would say that the perception of that same fear BY concealed carry advocates, ON THE PART of concealed carry opponents, makes them equally suspicious.

"And by the way, thanks to loopholes in gun laws, almost 40% of gun sales between private individuals are invisible to law enforcement."

"I'm not talking about out of someone's trunk; these are at gun shows, in classified ads, swap meets, whatever."

Right. your talking about the sale of PRIVATE PROPERTY by one individual to another individual. i can't see where thats a big problem.

And, I'd say your figures are way off. I'd say the figure is closer to 100 percent ...of sales between private individuals are invisible.

No gun will kill me any percent dead on its own. Surely you know this.


And NO, private sales are WITHIN the law.

Educate yourself about the law before you start preaching what IS and IS NOT legal under it, please.

[Hobarticus]

16. So, you know two....

That's qualifies as most, huh? Hyperbole much?

"I don't assume that. I would say that the perception of that same fear BY concealed carry advocates, ON THE PART of concealed carry opponents, makes them equally suspicious"

So, why do you feel you need to carry a gun to the Piggly Wiggly?

"Right. your talking about the sale of PRIVATE PROPERTY by one individual to another individual. i can't see where thats a big problem."

A gun shop owner's inventory is private property. And yet he has to sell it within the limits of the law. Why not make that law across the board?

Why 100%? Isn't there any visibility, when you apply for a permit if you purchase from a dealer?

Private sales are within the law, true, but how many are done with background checks? And why not?

"No gun will kill me any percent dead on its own. Surely you know this."

No, but a nut with a gun sure will, whether he got it legally or not, as we've seen. So suggest to me a sure-fire way to make sure that no nuts can get a handgun, within the law, and you can carry all the heat you need to feel safe at the supermarket or church or wherever.

Don't get snarky, I'm not the one claiming that MOST 21 year-olds are packing. You deserve a little ribbing for that bon mot.

[beevul]

17. You turn many into most, and accuse ME of hyperbole?

You turn many into most, and accuse ME of hyperbole? I would kindly thank you to NOT be inserting your verbiage into my mouth.

I never said I feel any need to carry a gun anywhere. I don't have a CCW, and I don't generally carry a weapon, except when there are coyote troubles out on the property. So much for assumptions eh?

Why 100 percent? Because private property is private property? /shrug Most places...that I would call free places...don't give permits out for the excercise of a right. Particularly a civil right. Now before you start saying theres no civil right involved, see the recent federal court ruling about the second amendment protecting the rights of individuals.


No private sales to my knowledge are done with background checks outside california. That would be bacause the NCIS (that would be the tool that gun DEALERS use for back=ground checks) is not available to the private citizen.


How about you suggest to me how someone legally carrying concealed via carry liscence has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with some nut with a handgun.


I saved the best for last:



"Don't get snarky, I'm not the one claiming that MOST 21 year-olds are packing. You deserve a little ribbing for that bon mot."

Right, and I'm not the one claiming someone said something...that they really didn't say. So in reality, you erected a huge critter made of straw, since I never once used the word most, and only said many. Chew on that for a while. Bon apetit Ahab.

[Hobarticus]

18. Many, most, whatever...the statement is ludicrous either way.

You know two or three 21 year-olds who carry, and changed that to "many". You said something absurd, and got called out on it.

I'm just asking, if you feel the need to carry and why. Never assumed you actually did. Check it again.

Sorry, your logic is flawed. You can preach up and down about your rights all you want, but the fact of the matter is, you still have to have to have some form of visibility to the local authorities to purchase from anyone, private property or no. I can quote my own state laws, below:

"State law requires handgun buyers to obtain a permit from local law enforcement prior to purchasing a handgun. The permit only involves a background check - there is no state requirement for safety training or fingerprints. The permit is valid for one year."

It does not allow for your so-called private purchase exclusions. Using your logic, I shouldn't need a permit to purchase from a gun dealer, since he's just transferring private property. Unfortunately, I do need a permit, in reality-land, and having purchased handguns in my state, I should know.

Ahab? Nice one. Your true colors have shown.

[brentspeak]

14. I don't mean the Brady Law

even though the Brady Law itself has been weakened by former AG Ashcroft. By "proper, legal scrutiny", I mean the NJ/RI/MA system: local police have authority to grant handgun permits. They don't just rely on a record of felony convictions, but will talk to neighbors, friends of the applicant, etc., to make sure the applicant isn't someone likely to go on a shooting rampage. Cho, the killer in the VT massacre, had all kinds of red flags -- stalking women, spooking out his professors, setting fire to a dormitory room, absolutely no one who could vouch for him. Those red flags would have denied him a permit in NJ. But not in Virginia (or too many other states.)

[xchrom]

9. recommend

[mudesi]

10. kick kick kick (nm)

[bleedingheart]

15. Nothing brings stability to a situation like a Gun...fully loaded and ready for action

yep...take

one part insecure young adults trying to find their way...
swirl in the insecurities of not really knowing what to do when you grow up
add alcohol and relationships that don't work out...

and then top it off with a gun...

Gosh if I had only known this...college would have been so much easier for me...