FUCK "CENTRISM"

[Orwellian_Ghost]

Although Progressives are marginalized by the Mainstream, they inform the debate as the well-spring, the font of the alternative, the counterweight to the Right's think tanks. All progressive ideas and policies rise from the lunatic fringe of the Left. With the rise of Centrism it has been easier for the Right to dominate the landscape and harder for progressives to even get the truth heard when Centrism triangulates the mythology of the Right.

Most modern progressives and liberals have been slowly subjected to the shift, like a frog slowly being boiled to death -- they just aren't even aware that the water is getting too hot and the game has been rigged all along.

And if we aren't willing to start Questioning Everything that is being thrown in our faces, day in and day out, perhaps we deserve our assured future of slavery and servitude. A fate worse than death? I might suggest jumping out of that water before it starts to boil.

[jefferson_dem]

1. What water are you recommending "we" jump out of?

With the GOP relegating itself to the extreme nutjobby fringe, there's plenty of room for the reasonable among us (liberals and moderates) to roam.

To recommend we push the party leftward at this moment is silly ... and counter-productive to the progressive cause.

We are more than the party of the "big tent". We are the party of the sane.

[BeFree]

5. So

You think we should embrace Joe L? Or was kicking his ass the sane thing to do?

Pray tell what sane things to center stands for... is it more military less health care?
Continued reliance of fossil fuels vs. solar?

Just what sanity has the center brought us? All I see is insanity, mostly.

[jefferson_dem]

11. Fuck Holy Joe.

He's a POS and no Democrat.

My point is that the Repug Party is presently in self-destruct mode. Their self-imposed "purity purge" is doing nothing but driving them into the fucking ditch of political irrelevance for years to come. Let's not match their idiocy with our own. It's more of an image thing than a policy thing.

Fact is...the American public is non-ideological and is wary of extremism, from either side. I do not expect all appreciate that truism. That's fine. Some DUers are still waiting on their "Department of Peace."

[Hannah Bell]

34. the american public supports single-payer. the american public thinks we should

get out of iraq. the american public "deluged" the white house with calls & emails against the bank bailout. the american public doesn't want a fucking mandated health "insurance" program, nor do they want to be spied on. they'd like some more jobs, too.

yet according to you, those who who wish the WH to push for policy closer to the views of the majority of the public are insane.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

110. +1

That needed to be said. :thumbsup:

[HowHasItComeToThis]

119. THE CENTER IS THE LEFT, THE RIGHT IS OLD AND DEAD

[theFrankFactor]

125. It Sucks to be Us...

Congressional Democrats have handed us a nice steamy cup of piss and many there are that have a taste for it. The same people that forgot what Nancy, Harry and the rest of the losers did for the eight years Republicans acted like they had a majority and a mandate. Now, you'd never know anything changed. The Republican minority still has a mandate apparently and they can call the shots.

The Democratic party is rife with pussy-ass Milquetoast "centrists" that are fooled by the act that Congressional Democrats put on. To these shitheads the dog and pony show by Max Bauchus isn't the least bit suspicious and the appointments to the Obama cabinet make perfect sense.

[bread_and_roses]

139. +2 and more

It's been this way for a while now...years. The public wants the same as what some here call "the fringe left." The beltway pundits just keep singing the same old song that confines the parameters of reality to the bought-and-sold Reps who serve the interests of their corporate donor/masters and who pretend the table scraps offered are revolutionary actions. And some here buy it.

[BeFree]

51. ha

The public thinks the country has gone insane and it thinks so because the center and right politicians have been in power and led us here.

The FACT is that the left has been correct all along and the rest of the country is ready, FINALLY, to follow us.

Some may shirk the responsibility of leading the way toward sanity, and you may include yourself in that camp, but there are a lot of us willing to lead us out of the insanity.

My advice: lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[placton]

95. nahhhhhh

Obama has it covered - don't worry be happy

[tomp]

54. the repubs have managed to water down health care reform....

...to a useless parody of reform...or wait, was that the centrist democrats all by themselves?

as for "extremism", that's a label that the corporate media and you put forward that is an outright lie.

the anti-kucinich tripe you're hawking shows where you stand. you'd prefer, i suppose, a dept of "homeland security" to pick up the slack for the "dept of defense" which is really the "dept of offense". talk about poorly named departments...

thank you but i'll judge for myself what's true...and it ain't you.

see you in 2012. without a major shift in direction obama will not have my vote. when you come calling on progressives, remember this post.

[kenfrequed]

60. You know...

The progressive Kucinich style democrats were here making noise for years while the mealy mouth moderate mavens were supporting the presidents war and the presidents tax policy.

I for one am completely tired of pro-DLC and pro-Blue Dogs sniping at progressives that actually want to change thing. The board is called Democratic Underground. I think the DLC has their own board but I wouldn't know because I don't friggin post there.

[Mithreal]

76. That Department of Peace comment weakened your argument. nt

[Orwellian_Ghost]

6. Show me

the sanity.

Give me specific policies that are firmly in place benefiting the majority of people particularly the poor and needy.

[dajoki]

91. There is no sanity...

or policies to help the poor and needy, not sufficiently anyway.

[Le Taz Hot]

36. The Democrat/Republican water.

Or is it Kool-Aid? It's difficult to try to play within the rules when the rules are routinely stacked against you. We worked hard, we got Democrats elected and as a result, we're looking at fucking MANDATORY insurance, among other things. At some point you just have to pick up your marbles and take them to a cleaner game -- even if that means starting your own game.

[pundaint]

63. No, silly is to think you are winning because the other guy is losing.

I'll start thinking I'm winning when I get a win

[bkozumplik]

127. right.

exactly right.

[winyanstaz]

75. We are not the party of the sane...

when Obama is keeping most of Bush's programs in place...such as wire tapping, secret renditions, torture prisons, no transparancy...etc..etc etc..and if you think that is ok..then indeed that is insane.

[w4rma]

2. Centrism is just another word for Corporatism. Big corporations are the status quo.

And the left wants them put in check.

[Sebastian Doyle]

3. +1000

I have no problem with the existence of actual "moderates", but that's not what DLC/BlueDog "centrism" is about. Never was, never will be.

If only the actual "moderates" would get that.....

[rhett o rick]

15. +1001. nt

[BeHereNow]

4. Good way to put it- Corporatism "light" is corporatism in sheep's clothing.

Too bad it has taken so many otherwise intelligent people in.
The "Delphi Technique" perfected.

BHN

[Deja Q]

7. It does seem to be looking that way

:(

[rhett o rick]

9. There are two kinds of "centrists" here in DU.

One agree with the left on almost all issues but are to chicken-shits to call themselves left.
the others use the guise of "centrist" to attack the left. They do not agree with the issues of the left. In fact they agree with the issues of the right. Bastards.

[Raster]

111. Thank you!

+1

[imdjh]

8. Here's how I define centrism.

Right wing says, "We don't want you to have it, and we want you to pay for it."

Left wing says, "We want it and we want it for free."

Center says, "Everyone should have it and everyone should pay for it."

[Wilms]

10. Allow me to assist.

Right wing says, "We don't want you to have it, and we want you to pay for it." Afterall, we pay for it with the money we keep from you.


Center says, "Everyone should have it and everyone should pay for it." Even though only the rich centrists and Republicans can afford it.


Left wing says, "We want it and we want it for free." Actually, we already earned it, we just haven't been paid.

[rhett o rick]

13. Well put. nt

[juno jones]

20. Yes, we have already earned it.

We provided labor that gives others their 'american dream'. Our work makes others rich. Yes we deserve heathcare AND WE HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR IT WITH THE SWEAT OF OUR GODDAMN BROW!

[NoSheep]

74. Here, here! I couldn't agree with you more.

:fistbump:

[SammyWinstonJack]

59. +1 nt

[Scruffy1]

61. You got the we already earned it right

forty years of working and I'm not any better off than I was-probably worse. Bought a lot of Mercedes,ski trips, and condos for other people. The majority of my friends are self emplyed and have no health care. Screw 'em. Take what is rightfully ours.

[GreenPartyVoter]

71. +1000

[willye]

105. I'm confused

I thought that central planning was centrist. Why fuck that?

[rhett o rick]

12. So tell me, does the center believe we should have a robust PO? nt

[imdjh]

17. The Centrist believes we should have Single Payer.

[rhett o rick]

29. Huh? How does that differ from the left? nt

[wroberts189]

99. ..it doesn't... the left is the true center. If the USA were only a bit more less fooled ....

..by the media.


And better educated ..and traveled.

[wroberts189]

98. I can agree with that. nt

[wroberts189]

96. Every major poll ever done has shown majority support for a strong PO. nt

[robinlynne]

24. Center never thinks everyone should have it!

[Mithreal]

81. Wouldn't hurt for you to read a book, I recommend Lakoff's.

He defines your centrism very clearly.

And your left wing comment makes me wonder how such a stupid comment came out of a fellow DU'er.

[imdjh]

128. You make lots of friends with that attitude?

[Mithreal]

132. Propagate outrageous righty lies about the left and expect no pushback?

With friends that post comments like that, who needs enemies, am I right?

[wroberts189]

94. Who on the left says we want it for free? WHO?..

We already comprised on a plan we would pay into... and even if we had not we all knew there will be a tax of some sort.


on edit... we just want to be able to afford it.

[laughingliberal]

131. Republicans and DINO's say we want it for free. Continues Raygun's welfare queen scenario nt

[rucky]

123. Is the Public Option supported by "centrists"?

It's deficit neutral - even the "robust" version.

Then what would you call the Congress critters that want to whittle-down a robust, deficit-neutral Public Option? Because they call themselves centrists, but it doesn't fit your definition.

[imdjh]

129. People call themselves centrists because they think it makes them look reasonable.

Much the same way that both poor and upper class call themselves middle class, to keep from being thought of differently.

Some people who identify as "Centrist" with a capital C would have you believe it's a fixed political philosophy generally synonymous with rational or objective. I tend to be like that about my political views, though I can't recall identifying myself as a Centrist. Small c centrism, on the other hand, is a floating position between extremes.

I'm really more of a liberal fascist. I know what's right, and if I had the power I would pretty much establish and enforce my policy. I'm not terribly democratic in fantasy world, but in the real world I have only the power and rightness of the US Constitution and some notion of democracy to hold on to as what is best.

[Mithreal]

133. Imdjh, "liberal fascism"? Popular Fronter, Goldberg fantasy or some other beast?

[imdjh]

134. Not sure what you mean, but pretty sure the answer is no.

By liberal fascist, I mean that in fantasy world I would be the dictatorial caretaker, Lord Protector if you will. Keep of all that is right, and I will decide what is right. Sort of a worldwide version of "don't make me stop this car".

[wroberts189]

144. I agree.. No one wants to be thought of as "far left" or "radical".

For example the media paints single payer .. the most common sense solution to the HC issue possible ...as far left.

"socialism" replaced "communism" as the new boogieman.

Paint the center as far left... they have been doing it since I could read newspapers.

[Individualist]

14. Centrist is a label DLC hides behind

[rhett o rick]

30. I agree. and so do those that are right of center. nt

[LoZoccolo]

16. NO U

[ipaint]

18. Centrists are republicans without the balls to admit it.

They are pro corporate conservatives who fancy themselves above the fray. They enable republicans with balls to carry out their politics of destruction.

Who knew suppressing war crimes, torture and illegal wiretapping using the state secrets card was a "centrist" policy. One short year ago it was the epitome of deceit and the right wing running dangerously amok and today it is reasonable centrist policy.

Centrists concede to the right 99% of the time and then claim they are middle of the road. 30 years of that and don't tell anybody but they are sitting the republican's laps.

[New Dawn]

19. "Centrist" is just a corporate media codeword for Right-Wing.

[unkachuck]

21. Centerism = Accomodationism

....and I refuse to accomodate the corporate evil that has eveloped our country....the shear magnitude of hidden corporate power dominating, corrupting, every aspect of our lives should frighten even the most ardent moderate....

....moderates should open their beady little eyes and witness the harm they're inflicting by being willful accomplices to corporate hegemony....

[tblue]

22. When the people have been so royally screwed by a system so corrupted by corporate interests,

we have to tack hard left to even get to the center.

Thanks for the post. This passion for centrism and this pandering to Olympia Snowe and Joe Lieberman makes me wanna tear my hair out. I feel like the world's on fire and the ones who sound the alarm are being told to STFU and get with the program.

[glitch]

55. "a system so corrupted by corporate interests, we have to tack hard left to even get to the center"

:applause:

[polichick]

23. Good analogy! k&r

[bvar22]

25. Centrism !

...because its so EASY!
You don't have to STAND for ANYTHING, and get to insult those who do! :party:

Whatever is In The Middle is Good Enough for Me!

[xchrom]

26. figures an orwellian ghost wrote this. nt

[Hardrada]

27. There isn't a CENTER to anything anymore. That's the problem.

Where is a center on abortion or a military occupation? Or corporate greed? Is half as much greed OK?

[DerekG]

28. Funny thing: In other countries, we would be the Center

Mention the Far Left in other countries, and folks would likely conjure Lenin; in America, the Far Left is anyone who actually believes access to food, shelter, education and health care are basic human rights.

This progressive says, "Fuck the reactionaries who fancy themselves centrists!"

[FatDave]

32. Also in other decades.

Today's center seems to me about in line with Nixon's policies. Well, his non-paranoid policies anyway.

[rhett o rick]

31. Well put my friend. nt

[HamdenRice]

33. FUCK DEMOCRACY!!! -- Yeah, screw any policy that can actually get 51 percent of the vote

Centrism means policy at the center of the electorate. It's a way of getting 51 percent support.

"Fuck centrism" is basically saying "fuck democracy."

Whatever one's ideals and goals are, outside Mom's basement in the real world, where pepperoni hot pockets don't just descend on a plate for your play breaks from world wide revolution gaming, and we have to deal with the policy preferences of fellow Americans, centrism is a means to the end of getting shit done.

And only an historical illiterate could write that all good ideas come from the left fringe. I suppose that would include the Maoist left fringe and the Great Leap Forward that caused the famine deaths of tens of millions of Chinese?

[Hannah Bell]

35. oh, the public gets to vote on policy? i did not know that.

i thought it was only those whoring congresspeople.

[QC]

52. Yes, but they're all millionaire Trotskyites.

Or Trotskyite millionaires.

Or something.

[Hannah Bell]

79. edit

[HamdenRice]

83. I think he's being sarcastic and is on "your side"

oh, but I forgot, grim humorless Trots are immune to irony, sarcasm and all forms of humor!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

97. i'm not a trot, hampton. as i've repeatedly told you. since you choose to repeatedly lie

about it, i conclude you're not interested in facts, just harrassment.

[Fumesucker]

37. You know damn well that the "center" has been dragged far, far to the right..

Since 1980 and the ascent of Ronaldus Maximus to the thro.. err.. presidency..

The rightward drag has only accelerated since Y2K and the utter dereliction and corruption of the M$M.

Bill Clinton, the best Republican president the modern era has seen, NAFTA, Welfare Reform, expansion of the drug war, what's not for a centrist to like?

[HamdenRice]

38. So what are you going to do? Abolish democracy? Rule by only the "vanguard party"?

The electorate goes from side to side. Are you saying we should only have democracy when it conforms to your views?

The democratic (small d) solution is to get out there and educate the public and argue your view of the world -- which is made easier by the economic crisis which validates the progressive view.

But it's idiotic to say that because the corporate media is the cause of the public's drift right then we can ignore their policy preferences.

Too many DUers seem to think that they can get around the fact that the world doesn't think exactly like them.

This is why the far left has a reputation for being authoritarian.

[Fumesucker]

42. It's not the public so much as it is the M$M..

There is just about *zero* "far left" in the US, I'm pretty sure you know this.

I haven't seen the electorate go from side to side, I've been watching it move ever further to the right since Jimmy Carter left office.

And yes, I do think that there are some on the left who come across as authoritarian, take a look at some of the food threads and there are plenty of examples of that.

The right has no problem implementing their agenda with full force when they get in power, the left never gets power in the US, or at least not for the last thirty years, that's why we have drifted constantly to the right. The Republicans move hard to the right and the Democrats tread water.

In order to move back to the left Democrats would actually have to enact leftist policies, that hasn't happened for the last thirty years and I honestly don't see it happening now, our politicians are too much bought off by the corporatists, when they aren't full blown corporatists themselves.

[HamdenRice]

43. The country just moved left by electing Obama compared to W.

I would agree the MSM is relentlessly right wing, but facts have a way of swinging the electorate to the left no matter what the media says -- as happened in the 1930s and 1960s and in 2008.

[blindpig]

49. The counrty might have thought it was moving to the left

And judging from the 65% support for single-payer and for out of imperial wars I'd say the people are moving left. Yet the government keeps moving right, totally unresponsive to the desires of the majority. So what the fuck good are elections? They only serve to provide the illusion that the people have any say in things. This latest election proves he point in the most blatant terms, can it not be more obvious that money calls the shots?

Prattle, rage, snark, do what you will, you are a defender of that Money which controls our politics sheerly for it's own purposes.

[Hannah Bell]

100. lol. sure, obama = "left". the electorate moved; the policy hasn't.

[conscious evolution]

50. Reinstating the Fairness Doctrine would be a start

Years of brainwashing by the MSM has played a big part in the shift toward 'centrism'.

Actually,a large percentage of the world does think like us.Only the media here does everything in its power to refute that.After all everyone knows that the hypnotized never lie.

[laughingliberal]

145. True. Conservatives of days past would now be looked on as center left

Policies of conservatives like Goldwater and Nixon would be derided by the right today as leftist.

[Selatius]

41. I respect your opinion, but I disagree. FDR was no centrist. He went down as one of the most popular

No other president garnered as much support on economic issues that he did, and he was no centrist by today's standards or even standards of the America of the 1930s. Back then, ideas such as the right to form labor unions, social security, the notion of the minimum wage, workplace safety standards, etc., were ideas that the Socialist Party had in its platform for years prior to FDR's presidency.

Also, the US is not a democracy. It never was. Freaking Switzerland comes closer to the definition of a democracy. There, people actually have direct powers such as the power to recall sitting legislators and the power to challenge an act of the legislature that they find controversial or unpopular like free trade bills and so forth.

[HamdenRice]

45. FDR started out centrist and the New Deal and corporate resistance and popular pressure pushed him

to the left.

Also, the Socialist Party was not the "far left" -- that was the IWW and Anarchists.

There are some interesting books about where FDR got his policies from, and it's a little simplified to say them came from the Socialist Party.

FDR got most of his policies from the state government of New York. He pretty much swallowed whole the personnel and policies of Al Smith's Democratic reform government in New York and their successors.

[Selatius]

53. Al Smith? The same Al Smith who opposed FDR's New Deal?

The guy joined the anti-FDR American Liberty League he was so opposed to FDR's policies, and that outfit was established by conservative Democrats. While I wouldn't say FDR copied whole-cloth ideas from the Socialist Party, I'd say they were a fairly big source among several that FDR borrowed from, some among them being Attorney General Thurman Arnold and Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, both proponents of the older tradition of trust-busting earlier in the 20th century which itself goes back to Jackson and Jefferson. Then there was Gen. Hugh Johnson who was a senior economic official during WWI under Wilson. His ideas would later land him at the head of the National Recovery Administration as he applied some of the economic mobilization plans used to support the war effort in Europe during WWI to fighting the Great Depression.

[HamdenRice]

56. Yeah, Al Smith

Smith hated Roosevelt because Roosevelt supplanted him as the nation's leading New Deal type reformer. His personal hatred affected his judgment. See Wiki:

"During Smith's term New York strengthened laws governing workers' compensation, women's pensions, and children and women's labor with the help of Frances Perkins, soon to be President Franklin D. Roosevelt's Labor Secretary.

At the 1924 Democratic National Convention, Smith unsuccessfully sought the Democratic nomination for president, advancing the cause of civil liberty by decrying lynching and racial violence. Roosevelt made the nominating speech in which he saluted Smith as "the Happy Warrior of the political battlefield".<2>"

...

Voter realignment

In long-term perspective Al Smith started a voter realignment. He helped launch the end of classless politics that ushered in the New Deal coalition of Franklin D. Roosevelt.<10> As one political scientist explains, "...not until 1928, with the nomination of Al Smith, a northeastern reformer, did Democrats make gains among the urban, blue-collar, and Catholic voters who were later to become core components of the New Deal coalition and break the pattern of minimal class polarization that had characterized the Fourth Party System."<11>

[Hannah Bell]

92. And Smith's ideas on reform came from - where?

[jefferson_dem]

47. Hey now.

Why ruin a good half-baked ideological rant with reason and facts...?!

[rhett o rick]

64. So would you consider Lieberman a centrist? Who are the centrist Democratic Senators.

If you mention the Blue Damn Dogs, I would like to point out that they are voting with the republicants against the American public. How does that make them centrists.

Instead of your definition of the center 51%, the right has redefined center as way right of center. In DU i have found there are two basic types of posters calling themselves centrists. One group seem to agree with the scary left on almost all issues, they are afraid of the tag "leftist". The other group appears to me to be trying very hard to drive a wedge between the so-called center and the left. They are really right of center and agree with the republicants. They take every opportunity to disparage the left under the guise they represent the center. But ask them how they stand on the PO, DADT or DOMA or NAFTA etc and they will refuse to reply. I have tried it.

[ElboRuum]

68. Well at least one person gets it.

Thanks for this.

[tiny elvis]

115. what?

Yeah, screw any policy that can actually get 51 percent of the vote

statement of purpose

Centrism means policy at the center of the electorate. It's a way of getting 51 percent support.
(therefore)
"Fuck centrism" is basically saying "fuck democracy."

so, democracy is basically a way of getting 51 percent support
your thinking may be partisan, because that is backward, or sideways
when you make your thoughts one with the party line you are robbed of reason and your statements' true meanings are occulted
getting 51 percent support is a party objective
doing what 51 percent want is democratic
there is a difference

Whatever one's ideals and goals are, (you are wrong and I am right)

declaration

(you are ignorant to) write that all good ideas come from the left fringe. I suppose that would include the Maoist left fringe and the Great Leap Forward that caused the famine deaths of tens of millions of Chinese?

though the op's declaration may be hyperbolic or absolutist, red chinese atrocities do not contradict it

in sum
party objective
party line bereft of reason
unsupported declaration
something irrelevant (party line?)

[bread_and_roses]

140. I'm trying to think of all the good ideas that weren't called "radical" or "left" or "fringe"

when they arose? Help me out. Give me some examples of "good" ideas in the social/political realm that came from the Right? Even the principles of something as non-controversial today as the Humane Society (which has degenerated into a sloppy, sentimental, essentially useless excuse for leaving the status - quo be) was considered "radical" originally - how DARE those nutcases tell owners they couldn't starve and beat to dealth their own animals! Don't they respect private property?!?

And btw, your Maoist examples do not hold water, or in any way refute the post to which you reply.

"All good ideas come from the "left"" does not = "All ideas from the "left" are good."

Not to mention that you are equating Authoritarianism with "the left" which some of us would dispute - whatever political or social banner it flies under, Authoritarianism is "right."

Of course "good" when it comes to the social/political realm is subjective. But by my criteria, all the "good" ideas I can think of at the moment were originally "left."

Starting with the Rights of (Wo/)Man ... continuing with
voting rights
abolishing child labor
child welfare laws
free public education
economic safety nets, unemployment, social security
labor rights
reproductive freedom, and all forms of women's rights
aboloshing slavery, and fighting all forms of discrimination and racism
clean air, water, and imposing environmental constraints on Corporations
animal welfare laws
progressive taxation

I could probably think of more if I tried, but those off the top of my head for starters. So help me out with some good ideas from the Right?

[cali]

39. what nonsense. All progressive ideas don't come from the lunatic fringe

btw, you sound just like the freepwads.

[ElboRuum]

69. The worst governance...

...comes from those who see the majority of people as an obstacle to be overcome.

[bread_and_roses]

141. and what does your "lunatic fringe" mean? and which "good" ideas were not considered "lunatic"

- fringe, radical, whatever you want to call it - when they were first proposed?

[boston bean]

40. "common ground" is a much more dangerous and insidious concept for liberals. nt

[fascisthunter]

58. bullshit it is... liberals have been right all along, yet screwed continuously

we've been the only ones compromising and we keep getting screwed.

[tekisui]

44. We have two conservative parties. Conservadems and Neo-Cons.

The Liberals are not even given crumbs, much less real seats of power at the table.

[mmonk]

46. Centrism combined with the media is destroying the two party concept.

It is why after one of the worst presidencies, their ideas still remain and their candidates are still in the game. It is the poison pill within the Democratic party because it really isn't a middle position when one party is extreme. It destroys the pendulum concept that used to provide real or factual balance.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. Centrists are Republicans who did not like Bush

It is not an actual position,it is just a spot held relative to how far to the right the right has gone. So a 'centrist' is as close to being a tea bagger as I am to being a centrist.

[avaistheone1]

77. Yes!

[fascisthunter]

57. centrist=corporate/fascist sellouts

[avaistheone1]

78. That's a fact.

[Scruffy1]

62. Frogs will jump out - they're smarter than we are

good post except the frog part. This is a common piece of misinformation that was started by the right wing many years ago to scare voters from progressiveness. Don't take my word for it. Ask any biologist.. I can speak from long experience with frogs. We need to seek the truth, not but they're language.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. "Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice"

Thomas Paine

[ElboRuum]

70. ...

"And an inability to tell the difference is the sure road to suffering."

Elbo Ruum


What do you think "FUCK CENTRISM" is? A failure to moderate principle, or a failure to moderate temper? Hint: it's the latter.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. "perhaps we deserve our assured future of slavery and servitude. "

Awwwww, how cute..... SOMEONE's been reading too much alex jones againnnnnnnn.

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[HamdenRice]

87. Absolute lunatic, isn't he?

Not to mention, he can't seem to describe his feelings toward the current situation without demeaning the memory of REAL HISTORICAL SLAVERY.

[jefferson_dem]

104. It's nice to see I wasn't the only one put off and confused by the OP's wild-eyed rant.

Surely, there's some deep-seated anxiety I'm not plugged into.

Linking frogs, boiling water, and "centrism" is crazy on its face.

[SandWalker1984]

67. The Republican Party is controlled by Corporations that are taking over the Democratics as well

What is for the most part being ignored is the fact that the Republican Party has been hijacked by big corporations. Even their "tea party" groups are being organized, guided and run by front men for a few very rich, very powerful people. By controlling the party, the corporations control the candidates and ultimately the legislation and the wealth.

Now they are attempting to take over the Democratic Party. The DLC is all about corporate interests. Many of Obama's White House Staff, including Rahm, are DLC corporatists.

This isn't about "centrists," it's about corporate takeover of the government and therefore our lives. Wall Street, Goldman Sachs, the Federal Reserve (yes, they are a private corporation)....


That's why the fight over health care reform is so important. It's about us, true Democrats, trying to keep them, the corporations, from designing and Congress passing, legislation that will benefit the corporations more than it benefits us, the people.

Mandates to buy private insurance, without regulation or cost controls, without any viable alternative plan (ie Medicare for all), is NOT reform -- it is another big corporate giveaway.

FOX News just announced the insurance corporations don't like the House bill because they absolutely don't want ANY sliver of a public option and the fines for failure to buy mandated private insurance are not large enough to force people.

The corporations are systematically looting our savings, our retirement, our ability to provide for ourselves with the help of Congress.

This is more of Obama/Orwell's change we cannot believe in.

[valerief]

72. But can centrism be real if this is always real?

[avaistheone1]

82. Amazing pyramid.

It kind of takes my breath away and not in a good way.

[valerief]

117. Yeah. Things haven't changed since it was created in 1911. Hell, things

haven't changed in centuries.

[maryf]

136. 'Bout time, dontcha think?

I'd love a General Strike, myself!

[maryf]

135. The workers need to jump out from under...

and let it all crash!

[bridgit]

73. "And if we aren't willing to start Questioning Everything that is being (fill in the blank)" seems

more a rationale for not having asked any pertinent, prescient questions when there was a chance to do so. To make 'the deal' more understandable to all. I don't know from shifting, slow boiled frogs as my image is more like hiring a painter, he paints your house asks you to come outside and check it out saying "Now that's a spicy meat-a-ball!" all proud and shit and you're all, "Hey! You didn't paint the eves!?" and he's all, "No. It wasn't in the bid. I'm only here to paint your house not your eves."

:wow:

Well, now that moment is gone and people cast about looking for explanations as to why things are the way they are because they aren't the way many understood they would be :( And now: New, Improved, Easy To Digest (use in well ventilated spaces) Centrism Decry! - can be just the soothing ointment for that boo-boo

But 'blind obedience' will imo do you in quicker than centrism ever thought it could when standing before people that question nothing

[LWolf]

143. Some of us DID ask

those pertinent, prescient questions when it counted.

We were drowned out of the conversation; steamrollered by masses of people high on the euphoria of "hope."

[Warren DeMontague]

80. I bet I know who you voted for in 2000.

How'd that work out for ya?

[HamdenRice]

84. Lenin is alleged to have said, "the worse it gets the better for us", so it worked out fine for him.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. It did? How?

I mean, he's extremely well preserved, but I'm not sure you could attribute a whole helluva lot of long-term success to his ideas.

[HamdenRice]

88. To clarify, this was before the revolution -- a view shared by the OPer

Lenin is alleged to have meant, we can't have a world wide revolution unless things get really, really bad.

So the OPer probably thinks that the 8 catastrophic years benefited his cause.

The OPer will of course be immune from any catastrophe as long as mom let's him direct world wide revolution from the rumpus room and keeps sending down the pepperoni hot pockets whenever he's taking a break from leading the proletariat.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Pfffffft.

:spray:

Thanks for clarifying.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

109. Doubt it

And furthermore anyone who sees "the vote" as the be all end all of politics completely misses the point.

Ultimately it's about economics not candidate-based popularity contests. Do you know what economic policies your guy/girl, whoever that may be, shall and does promulgate if they are in a position of power? Did you know before "the vote" took place?

[Warren DeMontague]

113. "ultimately", it's about a LOT of things.

Why don't you be a little more specific as to which, exactly, "centrist" policies and politicians you're so upset about?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

114. A long list

I'll get to that in the next few days with a separate entry. Might be impossible to list all the politicians who fall under that heading better to list those that don't. Keeping in mind that the political spectrum in this country has swung so wildly to the right over the last 60 years that what passes for milquetoast liberalism here is seen for what it is elsewhere which is big-business domination by the political class. In short most of this "centrism" I'm speaking about is in fact pretty far right politics when seen through the lens of economic theory and class analysis.

[Warren DeMontague]

120. The political spectrum has moved- because the other team moved the ball down the field slowly.

To take Health Care as an example, I support a Single Payer System. But I recognize that we're not going to get there overnight; in this country, it's entirely possible we may never get there at all.

So am I going to stomp my feet and complain about any "centrist" proposals that fall short of a SPHC system? Well, that depends.

As far as what is actually being proposed and put forth by our Democratic leadership (and I don't mean Max Baucus) ... is it everything I dreamed of, and a pony? No. Will it make an improvement in some areas, like the denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions (something that directly affects some of my close relatives) ...yes, I think it will. I also think the public option is shaping up to be better than we expected a month or so ago.

So do I refuse to sign on to something because it only does a little, instead of everything I want? No. I think that's pointless.

I think we're moving the ball.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

138. You missed a big part of the equation

Not only were both teams on board with virtually every single important domestic and foreign policy decision over the last several decades but most on both teams leadership were intimately involved in designing these policies.

The ball is being moved alright, in the wrong direction with the only possibility of meaningful change coming from the people.

[Phlem]

85. I second that!

I think we as a nation need to be actually at "center" to meaningfully discuss "centrism".

Last I checked we were looking the right edge, down into the abyss.

Let's actually get the nation back to center before praising right wing nut job's labeling themselves as "Centrist".

-phlem

[wroberts189]

90. knr ..here's to not being boiled again.... I hope nt

[placton]

93. yawn

it don't matter - just watch the pretty rainbows

[BEZERKO]

101. Funny thing is that there's no such thing as the "center."

It's a bad metaphor. Joe Brewer, formerly of the Rockridge Institute presently with Cognitive Policy Works, calls it the myth of the center. I think of it as the linear political spectrum, a fixed line, with the extremes of thinking at the ends and a center, which is where most people want to be. People talk about the "extreme far right," "extreme far left," "way out there," "in the middle," and so on. It's a bad metaphor, a metaphor that doesn't fit, because the center is undefinable. George Lakoff gives the example of Chuck Hagel and Joe Liberman who agree on NOTHING, but they're both called "moderates." There's no set of "positions" (on the linear spectrum?) that everybody understands of as representing the political spectrum. Problem is, this poorly defined metaphor controls the way most political pundits, political science grads, political operatives, etc. think. A better metaphor is Bi-conceptualism. A good description of bi-conceptualism, which includes partially conservative progressives can be found here partially progressive conservatives: http://www.cognitivepolicyworks.com/learning-center/resources/thinking-points/chapter-2-part-1-biconceptualism/

Oh, the myth of the center is a dangerous metaphor for progressives to use because, think about it, if that's they way the political world really works, then YOU HAVE TO CONCEDE POSITIONS to win support. Does that really work, is that what made the conservative movement so successful? I've never noticed them conceding much "ground."

[wroberts189]

103. +1

[wroberts189]

102. "CENTRISM" = Lack of decisiveness. Indecision. Wayward. No direction. Stagnation. KNR/nt

[ProleNoMore]

106. The Only Thing One Finds In The Middle Of The Road Is Yellow Stripes And Dead Skunks

eom

[Junket]

107. How can you fuck something that doesn't exist?

The term centrist used to describe a compromise position halfway between the left and the right where neither side was 100% happy, but at least had found some common ground. We don't have that anymore. Now a centrist is someone who doesn't believe in anything. They use their perceived "centrist" position as a rhetorical hammer to beat on their adversaries without even having to discuss the issue at hand. They are just the eminently reasonable center while their opponents are fanatical extremists with all the gaul to actually believe in something.

[Norrin Radd]

124. Agree. Welcome to DU, if you haven't already been a lurker.

[Octafish]

108. That's One Small Kick for Truth, One Giant Blow Against the Empire!

Question Everything -- especially the bull what passes out of the mouth of Corporate McPravda.
Question Everything -- it's what Democracy is ALL about.

[bvar22]

112. Where IS "The Center"?

Here is what the MAJORITY of Americans (Democrats AND Republicans) want from OUR government!

These polls are from 2005.

In recent polls (2005) by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Corporation, the Wall Street Journal, and CBS News, the American majority has made clear how it feels. Look at how the majority feels about some of the issues that you'd think would be gospel to a real Democratic Party:

1. 65 percent (of ALL Americans, Democrats AND Republicans) say the government should guarantee health insurance for everyone -- even if it means raising taxes.

2. 86 percent favor raising the minimum wage (including 79 percent of selfdescribed "social conservatives").

3. 60 percent favor repealing either all of Bush's tax cuts or at least those cuts that went to the rich.

4. 66 percent would reduce the deficit not by cutting domestic spending but by reducing Pentagon spending or raising taxes.

5. 77 percent believe the country should do "whatever it takes" to protect the environment.

6. 87 percent think big oil corporations are gouging consumers, and 80 percent (including 76 percent of Republicans) would support a windfall profits tax on the oil giants if the revenues went for more research on alternative fuels.

7. 69 percent agree that corporate offshoring of jobs is bad for the U.S. economy (78 percent of "disaffected" voters think this), and only 22% believe offshoring is good because "it keeps costs down."

http://alternet.org/story/29788/

8. Over 63% oppose the War on the Iraqi People.

9. 92% of ALL Americans support TRANSPARENT, VERIFIABLE elections!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446445

[theFrankFactor]

126. Watch Out Some Fuck Will Call You a Communist!

[bvar22]

130. This vividly demonstrates...

..how FAR to the Right of Center the Democratic Party really is.
America agrees with Kucinich on policy.

[fascisthunter]

147. taxation without representation

[yurbud]

116. centrism: screwing the middle class (but with lube!)

unlike the GOP doesn't want to waste the dime on it.

[laughingliberal]

148. Great analysis! nt

[TheKentuckian]

118. Centrists are what used to be mainstreet Republicans

Fiscal conservatives and more so corporatists and social moderates to social liberals.

You notice that a social conservative/fiscal liberal is never called a centrist or even a moderate. Its all about the money and who gets the lion's share. Of course now you have to be a Reichwing perfect storm to be called conservative by the media or Righties, you must be a neocon, a strict laissez faire apologist, and a theocrat to be conservative but to be liberal one must just drop the Reaganomics.

Its just like China, the right could give two craps about their social systems as long as they play ball or S. America where one could be Ben Franklin's ideological progeny but failure to play corporate ball turns you into Mao at best.

[GreenTea]

121. Fucking moderates....can't stand these clowns who go back & forth between ideologies and

who actually vote at times for the slimy fucking republicans, i.e., republican ideology - Corporations over people....these fence-siting, which-ever-way-the-wind-blows, undecided, not sure, middle of the road, frightened of their own shadow, scared at everything tossed at them, easily manipulated losers are disgusting....Fucking moderates!

[upi402]

122. yellow stripes and dead armadillos

[laughingliberal]

146. Jim Hightower nailed it with that. I think of it every time people speak of 'centrists' nt

[maryf]

137. K&Rnt

[LWolf]

142. To late to recommend, but I'll give it a

:kick: