What's wrong with positive thinking?

[lwcon]

Insightful book review here:

http://globalsociology.com/2009/10/26/book-review-bright-sided/

All this might feel like harmless “feel good” new agey nonsense but the injunction to cut oneself off from “negative people” (that is, anyone with a realistic grasp of the world) has normative implications that can be pretty nasty, from being ostracized to being laid off.

[madfloridian]

1. Nothing unless it is carried too far. Sometimes reality must set in.

[lwcon]

2. I have a weird preference...

... for reality to be the norm, rather than something that "sets in" once in a while.

It's taken me a long time to get used to the idea of how radically that is in defiance of social conventions.

[Touchdown]

3. I just finished that book. What's wrong is a lot of things.

It's all in there. The library should have 10 copies. If they don't, tell them they're not being "Team Players" and being "Negative in the workplace".;)

[Go2Peace]

47. I will have to read it. Did it discuss loss of empathy as one of the results?

I see it to often of people in leadership positions that were able to get there because of their overly "enthusiastic" attitude. They all too easily make decisions that can decimate the lives of others.

[Touchdown]

90. She goes into the "create your own reality" scenario

...which usually does afflict people into doing things that ultimately harm others, because of a narrower and narrower worldview. People who are powerful and rich become the naked king of that old fairy tale. Nobody will tell them the truth anymore, because they will fire anyone who gives them bad news. How many generals went through the Pentagon when Bush was in office before they found a yes man who would tell him what he wanted to hear?

Kind of like that Twilight Zone kid who killed everybody who didn't say or do "good things".

[Touchdown]

4. Join the discussion...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6879754

Keep this thread too. The more the merrier.

[Alexander]

5. I agree 99%, except there really are some hopelessly negative people out there to avoid.

Like, for example, self-destructive addicts who don't accomplish anything and blame anyone and everyone else for their own failures and problems.

Yes, I have known people like this, and yes, sometimes you just have to walk away from them. Sad but true.

Other than that I completely agree that this new-age "positive thinking" crap doesn't get one anywhere.

For some reason people are really into this stuff out west.

[Touchdown]

6. Those people are worry warts. Still I would want my airline pilot to worry a little.

To be aware that things can go wrong in the cockpit and bring us into safety. I really don't want a pilot that's taken a Tony Robbins seminar and chants that he is in control of his universe and all he has to do is think positive thoughts and he will save the plane and have a hot wife with a big rack as long as he keeps her in his mental image... while we're hurtling toward the ground at 500mph.

[Alexander]

7. I agree, but I also wouldn't want a depressed addict flying the plane who suggests we might crash.

Realism is the best possible situation, but relentless negativity can be just as dangerous and destructive as relentless positivity.

[lwcon]

9. Positiveness, even in highly irrational forms, is culturally supported

Even sensible negativity is shunned. There's the rub.

[Touchdown]

10. The book is for you then.

The morose people are not part of her narrative, mainly because the terminally morose don't make millions from corporations to brainwash us into being happy little cogs in their machine.

And... chances are in today's corporate climate, your pilot isn't going to have a job at any airline. Mine however will, because he's been properly trained in "Positive thinking" and he's an up go-getter. A Tiger!

[Alexander]

13. Not really. I already agree with the premise, as I've said.

I'm just saying that a healthy balance is necessary.

"And... chances are in today's corporate climate, your pilot isn't going to have a job at any airline."

Do I really need to find some drunken airline pilot stories for you?

[Touchdown]

16. And she calls for a healthy balance in the whole spectrum of human emotions.

Her focus is on snake oil salesman and the epidemic of delusional positive thinking that leads to financial crashes, lazy hurricane responses, and a serious lack of insight into pilot trainees that express no interest in learning how to land, because America is the greatest land of all, and nobody would fly planes into our buildings.

Drunks, yes. Terminally depressed, or chronically negative, which is who you're describing, I seriously doubt it, unless they can hide it well from management.

[lwcon]

17. That pilot is sure he can navigate through that storm instead of heading to safety

It's gotta work, it's just gotta!

[conscious evolution]

67. I'll take a pessimist like Capt. Sullenberger anytime. nt

[Luminous Animal]

14. You didn't read the article.

It has nothing to do with "new-age" and nothing to do with the "west".

[Alexander]

15. Actually I did, and I was relating it to my own experiences.

Assuming things about what you don't know is also a bad idea.

[Quantess]

8. People with depression often have a difficult time thinking positively.

Depressed people often have unrealistically pessimistic thoughts, and being a little more positive may bring them closer to reality.

[Alexander]

11. Exactly.

I've known certain people who manage to see the bad side of everything, even accomplishments and achievements they should be proud of.

There's a difference between realistically assessing a mediocre or bad situation with a plan of action to fix it, and being so hopelessly depressed and pessimistic that you can't recognize when something good is happening. The latter kinds of people tend to depress and suck the life out of the people around them, and should be avoided just as much as the "positive thinking" type people.

[Touchdown]

12. The delusionally positive usually falls into depression harder than a realist though.

Once their worldview is crashed around them, and they find out their not experts at the stock market, all Hell breaks loose.

[lwcon]

18. Let's be fair

The delusionally positive are almost by definition gifted with denial, which is a happy alternative to depression! Who can be sad when a pony's on the way?

[alliswellandsoitis]

37. Those people are in denial, which is totally different

It's possible to see the truth in things and yet remain detached. Spiritual practices assist in this endeavor.

[Touchdown]

64. No, it's exactly the same. Denial is exactly what the book and article are about.

What you are talking about is totally different from this thread.

Spirituality is another form of delusion. There is no magical electricity in the sky that talks to us.

[HughMoran]

43. I rarely see the 'delusionally positive' get depressed though

Most often they simply build another "reality" that accounts for their failure and allows them to march on - blissfully ignorant. Of course there are people that have to build these realities simply to survive, so I'm not sure making broad-brush statements about people who choose to be seemingly excessively positive is all that productive.

[wroberts189]

22. +1

[eridani]

23. Not really true. When depressed people do their own job evaluations,

--their average grades are roughly the same as the grades their coworkers and bosses give them. They also are less superficial in their analysis of problems, and come up with deeper solutions than their perkier coworkers. They aren't down on themselves, they are simply accurate. Slightly rose-tinted glasses seem to be the human neurotypical norm. If we want scientists and engineers, we have to put up with a certain amount of autism. If we want some people to be able to give accurate reality checks, the cost is a few that get lost in the grey pit.

[Go2Peace]

44. +1 - There are some people propagating innacurate stereotypes of those with Mental Health issues

On this topic

Most people with depression are able to lead normal lives and are as able to make accurate judgements, if not even much better judgements than "forever optimists".

I would much rather have a treated person with chronic depression as safety inspector for said airplane.

[treestar]

61. no way

A person suffering from depression can't concentrate well.

[Quantess]

46. Your anecdotal reference does not make it "not really true".

First, I trust that you have a source...?

Second, even if a depressed co-worker thinks he/she is doing a good job, he/she will express it negatively, "I'm great at at my job, but I know I'm going to get fired because my boss hates me" or "I'm the best at what I do, but nobody appreciates my work because I'm a terrible person that nobody likes."

[Go2Peace]

45. Wow, and your references are? That was terrible stereotyping and innacurate

[Quantess]

52. What was your point, again?

Edit to add: I am a Depressed Person, myself, and I am inclined to tell you to go **** yourself.

[eridani]

50. Yes, I do have a source. Still looking for it.

Sometimes finding the right search words is a hassle, but this is actual published researcy.

[Quantess]

93. Well, I think it sounds about right that if you ask someone with Depression

some fairly objective questions, they will answer honestly. Maybe they really are good at what they do, or maybe they aren't and they know it. But, ask them to name 3 things they find rewarding about their work, and they may have difficulty coming up with three things.

[Hannah Bell]

98. i gave you a reference, without comment. you responded with gratuitous rudeness.

i guess you prefer your own version of reality.

you must be perky.

[Odin2005]

72. Exactly! Good post.

A world with no neurodiversity is frightening. :scared:

[Hannah Bell]

94. Depressive realism

Depressive realism is the proposition that people with depression have a more accurate view of reality, specifically that they are less affected by the positive illusions of illusory superiority, the illusion of control and optimism bias.

Studies by psychologists Alloy and Abramson (1979) and Dobson and Franche (1989) showed that depressed people appear to have a more realistic perception of their importance, reputation, locus of control, and abilities than those who are not depressed.

People without depression are more likely to have inflated self-images and look at the world through "rose-colored glasses", thanks to cognitive dissonance elimination and a variety of other defense mechanisms.

This does not necessarily imply that a happy person is delusional or deny that some depressed individuals may be unrealistically negative (as in studies by Pacini, Muir and Epstein, 1998).

Since there is evidence that positive illusions are more common in normally mentally healthy individuals than in depressed individuals, Taylor and Brown (1988) argue that they are adaptive.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism

[Quantess]

95. I knew there was a good reason

to keep your posts on ignore.

[Hannah Bell]

97. rude biddy, aren't you?

besides being wrong on the facts.

[avaistheone1]

19. Ignorance is bliss.

If you are constantly happy with the world and our country in the condition it is in, there is something seriously wrong with you.

[Touchdown]

20. Carolyn Burnham: The quintessential positive thinker.

"I am going to sell this house today. I am going to sell this house today!"
"Lester! I refuse to be a victim! I refuse to be a victim!"

[Extend a Hand]

21. global warming and peak oil

are two examples where many, many individuals, goverments, and companies refuse to consider 'unpleasant' facts that might just be our collective undoing.

I consider myself to be an optimist because I really believe we (humans) can make society a better place in what will be a new reality. I find the apparent mass refusal to look at likely problems and make meaninful changes to be stunning.

[pipoman]

24. Nothing is wrong with positive thinking.

The depressed and perpetually negative people are as bad to be around as the hucksters selling positive thinking as a cure-all. Positive thinking to me is believing I will be successful at the tasks I perform both long term and short term. I usually do ultimately succeed at my tasks. The opposite of positive thinking is negative thinking. Eternal pessimism is, IMHO, far more damaging to ones overall happiness than even unrealistic positive thinking. In the end I believe that positive people are happier and more fun to be around than negative people.

[lwcon]

25. "Nothing is wrong with positive thinking"

That says it all.

[Igel]

32. Our dept. chair was deeply into only seeing the good.

When a faculty member threw a chair at a grad student, he couldn't believe it was true--and since she didn't report it personally, got away without calling her a liar.

When the graduate advisor made an oral promise to swap out an immigrant student's full-year fellowship for a comparable package because he didn't see the letter from the INS guaranteeing her green card after the start of the new fiscal year, it wasn't a problem. Of course, the "comparable package" was a 1/4 time TAship for one quarter. But mistakes happen.

When a meeting between faculty and grad students over support--the faculty routinely decided the following year's financial support a few weeks before the end of school in late May when dept. regulations required acceptance by the end of April--it was a good thing. Granted, all that happened is that faculty told grad students they were wrong and, well, if the dept. could get better grad students it would surely find money to support them, and we found out nothing at all about how aid was awarded, why it took so long, etc. But the dept. chair was proud that the "air had been cleared."

Then the outside review came. The outside reviewers said there was a "spiritual malaise" in the dept. The outside reviewers said two faculty members should be retired or forced to see anger management or other psychological counselling. The outside reviewers said that the the attrition and graduate rate was horrendous--over 50% of every entering cohort was out of the program within 6 years, but the average time to degree was more than 9 years. The outside reviewers strongly recommended suspending admissions and making the dean responsible for all day-to-day decisions--including things like deciding how the photocopier allocation was determined.

The sunny, cheery pollyana in the dept. chair's office was aghast.

And his first response? How to make sure that the governing body saw the *truth* about the dept. How best to make sure that admissions were suspended and decanal influence abated.

Fixing the problems? That would require *admitting* the problems. That, sadly, he never really did.

Yet one of the problem professors did retire under a bit of duress--the dean saw to it, because the dean, with no love for the dept., saw the problems realistically. The other teacher was prohibited from teaching grad classes and was put in a large, supervised undergrad class. The funding decision process was writ in stone and imposed on the dept., much to the delight of many of the more decent professors.

When the suspension was lifted, the response of the dept. chair was that the truth finally won out. Fortunately, the dean also decided that they needed a new dept. chair.

The word "pollyana" should make a bit of a come back, I think.

[lwcon]

34. "Fixing the problems? That would require *admitting* the problems."

My sentiments, exactly.

And almost no one will admit problems that are unflattering to him/herself or his/her tribe.

[pipoman]

56. There is a difference between

'pollyana' or only seeing the good, and positive thinking. I spent 20 years as a criminal defense detective. Believe me I am not naive nor a sucker. Positive thinking doesn't require rose colored glasses. Positive thinking, to me, is more open mindedness and willingness to try something new with an expectation that what ever is being tried will work. A negative thinker is most resistant to change even in the face of failure of the current system or mediocrity of the current system. Positive thinking doesn't require faith in others, only in one's self. Positive thinking imparts motivation. Eternally negative people are usually found in entry level jobs for extended periods of their lives, their negativism is manifested in an attitude of unworthiness of success which effects those in a position to improve that person's lot in life. Eternally negative people never take a risk, thus never gain the rewards only achievable through undertaking some level of risk.

Bottom line..positive thinking (like most things) can be measured on a continuum, at one extreme is the ultra negative person, probably a very angry person performing menial tasks for income, either a loner or attached to a person who is either very domineering or 'below' themselves in intelligence or appearance. The negative person usually has a nasty disposition which repels most people. At the other extreme is a person who has probably had a string of apparently good jobs, likely lives in mediocrity, has spent a lot of energy and/or money on unbelievably obvious, destined for failure ventures. Has likely been scammed more than most people...an extreme 'pollyana'. Has likely been in many relationships with people who 'out class' themselves either in intelligence or appearance.

Now I do understand where the author (and your examples) are coming from, I believe both of you are pointing to the extreme PMA (positive mental attitude) cheerleaders. Those on the other end are equally worthy of shun of their system of beliefs. Extremes are usually not good, I will remain in my position on the continuum somewhere short of the extreme PMA cheerleaders...in fact closer to the center.

[Touchdown]

66. Again, this isn't about what you think positive thinking is.

This is about an industry of motivational speaking parasites that want us to be happy to be cogs in the corporate machine, because happy, deluded people who blame themselves for outsourcing don't rise up and put their bosses or the rich who are keeping them "from realizing their goals" in guillotines.

The positive thinking industry isn't about making friends. Its about rabble control.

[pipoman]

70. This may be the motivation of some of the

current hucksters selling this idea. It isn't, IMHO, the history of the PMA movement.

Napoleon Hill, arguably the first, best known PMA author and teacher, influenced my attitude at a young age with his book, "Think and Grow Rich"c. 1937. I have read it several times over the years. It is inspirational. The message has helped me get and keep jobs and friends. Early on it helped me understand that if I insist on living and thinking I am entitled to something based on my mere existence, my education, my experience, or my seniority, I will likely, in the end, be disappointed. If I accept the responsibility for my own future, take calculated risks when they arise, and believe in myself, I have the best chance of effecting my destiny in a positive way. While "Think and Grow Rich" is directed strongly toward the sales world, virtually every happy successful person you meet is a good salesperson, whether their job is sales related or not or whether or not they realize it.

From the OP:

All this might feel like harmless “feel good” new agey nonsense but the injunction to cut oneself off from “negative people” (that is, anyone with a realistic grasp of the world) has normative implications that can be pretty nasty, from being ostracized to being laid off.

Is nonsense. Yes, I suppose at the farthest end of the pro-PMA continuum some people with certain personality disorders would take these lessons to the extreme causing them problems in their life. Most people who practice PMA simply don't allow negative people to influence them due to their awareness of the person's negativity. Someone without knowledge of negative human behavior would be more susceptible to buying into negative ideas. As with everything, most people fall somewhere in the middle of the continuum being mostly positive. The dangers associated with allowing a depressed or negative person to bring you to a depressed or negative state are very real, especially if you are currently personally unstable in work or relationships.

Just my $.02

[Touchdown]

80. Ehrenreich had some choice words about Hill, and they weren't glowing.

In my experience, the corporate world is exactly the quote you say is nonsense. "Positive thinking" allowed Wall Street to ignore the signs of disaster, because of the belief "that you can create your own destiny". If you think there will never be a crash, then there never will be one. Hogwash!

The problem with this is that the PMA you are talking about is as dead as conservatives. Replaced with reactionary cults who are at best delusional, and since it' so pervasive, it affects the rest of us in the forms of firings, lost friends, and a general denial of reality.

How do you define success? I have to have a baseline of you before I can respond to your comment about happy, successful people who are salesmen.

Depression is a chemical imbalance. It is a medical condition, and it's completely human. To deride it as something that can just be willed away is denying reality. Furthermore, I would ask you to define "Negative Person" as well. To many adherents to this religion, anybody who posesses critical thinking skills, or sees the wrongs in the world we live in, and wishes to do something about it (activism), are considered "negative". Any questioning or criticism, or even calls for clarification is considered "negative" and can be subject to a purge. Bad news from the reality based world is not negative. Denying it because it might de-rail your day is a mental disorder.

If your life is so fragile, and your emotions so volatile that you need a guru/life coach/preacher to tell you to purge other humans from your life, no matter who they are, then it's not your "Negative People" that have the problem. It's your own confidence level that needs constant stroking and an elimination of natural human emotions to function that does. That is the quintessential definition of a phony... which I've met many a salesmen who fit that to a tee.

Lest you think I'm being "negative", I'm not. I'm critical. There is a big difference between the two.

[pipoman]

82. I disagree

One of the basic principles Hill describes is realistic belief and avoidance of greed. The Wall Street issues are based in greed and unrealistic expectations combined with a calamity of bad 'legal reforms'. It is about believing in one's own ability, not faith in other people or things which are beyond one's own control. Admittedly my views on life are influenced by the stories of others..everyone's are, including Ehrenreich's. Maybe she knows or was very close to someone who apparently lived their life based on their interpretation of some of these messages yet died a miserable failure...based on their own standards.

Positive thinking to me is about entering each day with hope rather than despair...regardless of my circumstances. It is about setting realistic expectations of myself, personally and professionally, then consciously working toward those expectations. It is about following my dreams. It drove me from a 20 year gig which was very profitable financially but which I no longer enjoyed, to a 180 degree career change to a craft I have always wanted to do. It drives me to always be as productive as possible at work and at relationships. Success is about living a happy life, doing what you like to do which is not harmful to others. It is about leaving a legacy of hope to someone else through my existence.

A severely clinically depressed person would be at the far negative end of the positive/negative continuum, which is not to say that person can necessarily control their condition. Constant influence of such a person can effect a normally positive, hopeful person in a negative way. I assume you nor Ms. Ehrenreich choose to hang out with every person you meet? Your motivation is self serving in that you don't want the influence of every person you meet. We all have standards. I don't hang out with thieves or compulsive liars either..doesn't mean I didn't spend 20 years successfully communicating with them.

If your life is so fragile, and your emotions so volatile that you need a guru/life coach/preacher to tell you to purge other humans from your life, no matter who they are, then it's not your "Negative People" that have the problem. It's your own confidence level that needs constant stroking and an elimination of natural human emotions to function that does. That is the quintessential definition of a phony... which I've met many a salesmen who fit that to a tee.

Who has not based their life on a collection of ideas from various other people's experiences? People with no direction. If you want to feel bad, tell yourself over and over how badly you feel and soon you will actually feel bad...it works, try it. Just try to get a job, or a friend, or a companion while espousing negative or depressed ideas..nobody wants to be around that except other negative or depressed people. Nobody disputes that there are charlatans lurking, but a true charlatan is the antithesis of positive thinking.

[Touchdown]

87. I can see that.

And you are right. There are people who I avoid all the time. I'm pretty far from Will Rogers. The reasons why I avoid people vary though, most I usually don't put a finger on their personality traits, just an instinct that I should steer clear of them.

Downers or depressing people seem to be your nemeses. Mine are usually the authoritarians. Those who have domineering, bossy, emphatic or passive/agressive ways of dealing with me. They set me off, and I at times get very vocal in my rebellion of them. Those who claim to have the answers are ones I hold as suspect. This is why I wasn't a very good soldier, so I decided not to re-enlist after my 3 years in the ARMY.

I think the term of Positive Thinking is being changed for the worst. You seem to hold a classic view of it, compared to the author who is criticizing the industry of the Tony Robbinses/Zig Zigglers/Joel Osteens/Cheese Movers type of motivational parasites to tell us that we are at fault our jobs moved to China. My support for you to claim it back.

[treestar]

62. positive thinking doesn't mean no problems

It means having the confidence that you can cope with your problems.

[Odin2005]

73. That is amusing and disturbing at the same time.

[gkhouston]

78. To me, it was so familiar that I thought he was describing MY grad dept at first.

Change some details and it could have been my experience, as well. Only half of the people who entered grad school with me left with a Ph.D., and half of the ones who finished took longer than 10 years. Only one person got out in less than 7 years.

[Touchdown]

63. This isn't about what PT is to you. It's about a Billion$ industry to get us to accept

that downsizing is all our fault because we failed to think good thoughts and have good things come magnetically to us, so the cosmos or God or whatever laid us off. Not your corporation's top management looking for approval from Wall Street on the next quarter's earnings.

Believing you will be successful at tasks, and being sold a bill of goods that you need to market YOU the brand in order to be successful are two different things!

[Fumesucker]

26. Pessimists never get nasty surprises..

An optimists never get pleasant ones.

[lwcon]

28. On my, and Sarah Vowell's, failure of pessimism

http://dayofshame.blogspot.com/2007/02/print-legend.html

[Fumesucker]

29. Eh, I can safely say that not a fucking thing the bushies did surprised me..

Sarah Vowell and you simply failed to be adequately pessimistic. :evilgrin:

[lwcon]

33. Our bad, for sure

I wasn't adequately pessimistic about Obama, either. I suck.

[Fumesucker]

35. No, you don't suck..

We pessimistic realists need some of you less pessimistic folk around to keep us from cutting our own throats..

:hug:

[lwcon]

40. Any club where I'm the sunny optimist is...

...well, pretty unusual.

[Buns_of_Fire]

31. I used to have a couple of books by Robert J. Ringer...

It was typical self-help stuff, except for one concept (if not the exact wording) that has stayed with me to this day:

The sustenance of a positive attitude by the assumption of a negative result.

[kimmerspixelated]

81. Try the Release Technique

by Lester Levenson. First one must get rid of the crap- like the virus on your computer..before it works properly, so by releasing your self-defeating habits you can then to let the positive law of attraction start to flourish. Another one- Greene's Release- sorry no link.

[alliswellandsoitis]

38. I think cancer is a rather nasty surprise, don't you?

[Touchdown]

60. Cancer is a blessing to the positive thinker. It's an opportunity to take stock in your happiness.

... or some shit like that. She devotes a hole chapter to the positive delusion that breast cancer sufferers are subjected to by the pink ribbon & teddy bear industry.

[AllentownJake]

27. It has replaced religion as the opiate of the masses

[tonysam]

76. +1,000 n/t

[snagglepuss]

30. .

[alliswellandsoitis]

36. Nothing is wrong with it...In fact, the truth is that we can alter

our reality by how we view things. Even psychotherapy was about that, before the drug band wagon.

[lwcon]

39. "Nothing is wrong with it" again

Positive thinking is perfection! All negative thoughts are bad. And we're having flying unicorn-ponies for supper!

[Beaverhausen]

42. Someone who tends to think postively doesn't necessarily not face the reality of life

I have learned that I can perpetuate negative things happening to me if I anticipate them, but I have also learned that negative things will happen regardless.

I am happier then those I know who are always negative and always looking for the negative side of things.

It's really a glass is always half full thing; I try to see things that way. It works for me.

[treestar]

65. Right. It means you feel confident you can handle things

Not that no bad thing will ever happen. It's what allows people to persist, too. If you think negatively, you give up too quickly. Some have succeeded after trying more than once.

[mwb970]

53. Sorry, that's not the proper opinion for this thread.

Can't you read? The proper opinion here is "positive thinking is worthless, and anyone who believes in it is an idiot".

Care to try again?

[Touchdown]

68. That is so fucking wrong it's not even funny.

Psychotherapy is not about shutting down emotions, negative or otherwise. It's about learning the whys of who you are, and why you do what you do, and react the way you do. Changing how you react to these things is easier when you understand why you react the way you do. It's entirely reality based. Not a conjured up reality that you have magnets in your head and you can attract the refrigerator if you visualize the magnets in your head... or whatever the fuck The Secret tells you is true.

Behavior modification, or "repairative therapy" is what you are talking about... psychiatrists are not into that. 12 step councellers and nutty fix the gay christians are.

For example, after years of therapy, I know which of my personality traits was responsible for me exclaiming "Fucking" in my response to you. It's still negative, but I do understand why.;)

You can never alter reality. You can only react to it. Reality is non-negotiable. "Altering reality" is another word for ignoring it.

[Skittles]

85. hey Touchdown

please fucking tell me why you, er, exclaim "Fucking"....I....er, need to know :7

[Touchdown]

88. There are those who purge "negative people" from their lives...

After a few years, I've learned that these people don't bother me, in fact I never even considered a purge of the sullen in my life. But authoritarians do bother me greatly. My blood boils when I'm being bossed around. I get angry, defiant, rebellious.

Those who claim to have all the answers are another form of authoritarian (as in authority on a subject matter). So without going too Freudian into my childhood, I react with indignation and anger at the know-it-alls as well as the hopelessly bossy, hence the profanity just to get my point across. Authoritarians usually aren't used to listening to people, so "fuck" is a good word to get them to shut up and listen, or at least piss them off. "I was brought up this way" or "My Momma taught me..." sounds cliche, but every bit of the person you are Skittles is a result of the journey you made to get here, especially what happened in childhood.

You've probably seen me get into many flames wars here, and also know that even if I lose (which is very frequent) I never let them have the last word anyhow. It's part of me. If you search my arguments, you will probably see that 90% started when another DUer told me what to do or tried to define me into a personality box.

I do this even if I don't really believe in the side I'm arguing, because the lofty need to be chopped down, no matter what.
I'm a nutcase, but at least now I know that I am.:rofl:

[Odin2005]

74. Thinking you can "alter reality by how you view things" is FUCKING INSANITY!

Shit like this makes me glad that I'm on the autism spectrum, I'm immune to this delusional crap.

[tonysam]

77. There is plenty wrong with it

It's all the "blame the victim" garbage when bad things happen. Most things that happen to us ARE out of our control.

[gkhouston]

79. Um, no. Mr. Gravity wins every time. But thanks for playing. n/t

[Raineyb]

89. Are you on drugs? n/t

[Deja Q]

41. Always tell people the market will do just fine,

while the higher-ups keep cashing out...

[jonnyblitz]

48. i just bought the book last night after seeing the author

speak about it. my mother was subjected to that woo crap when she had breast cancer, just like the author, except my poor mother fell for it and blamed herself and any of us family members that stressed her out at the time for getting it. only "negative" people get cancer according to these loons. they BLAME you for your cancer. :crazy:

[HotJohnee]

49. what?

negative people? Dude you are a moron

[Desertrose]

51. Like anything else...you can go too far.

Seeing the positive side of things and being grateful for the good things one has can/should be balanced out by realizing that life is never smooth and sometimes crap just happens.I think its more about how you view what happens in life than expecting things always have to be good.

When I have a choice, I stay with the positive view...just works better for me.



(edited to add sentence)

[TexasObserver]

54. The problem is "positive thinking" is often a screen for insidious social themes.

The entire branch of Christianity that champions prosperity as God's plan for them demands positive thinking coupled with faith that the person will get whatever it is they want.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

91. From Calvinism and the doctrine of "Predestination" and "The Elect".

The idea that Gawd knows who is going to Heaven and who isn't, before they are born.

The idea that good people are rewarded financially. That rich people are more ethical and moral than the rest of us, because they have money and/or social class. The Aristocracy in Europe found out that the people overthrew them because they were immoral and certainly did not rule by divine right.

Good stuff for keeping people in their place and not raising hell, by giving them an exaggerated sense of guilt and harping on their mostly non-existent guilt. Extremely poisonous thinking, and absolutely accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

This is why Don Giovanni and The Marriage of Figaro are radical -- they show members of the aristocracy, Don Giovanni and Count Almaviva, as shameless skirt-chasers and more or less serial rapists, and getting away with sex offenses and hurting women, because of their social status.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

92. Furthermore, I have trouble with authoritarians.

They use their authority and control to paste a happy face over things, and act as a cover for mediocrity and stupidity, or else they just enjoy scaring hell out of people and making them sick with stress. Psychopaths with a superficially charming personality can go far in destroying people and looking innocent while they do it. They may not break any laws, but still be just as bad as if they were physically violent (see: verbal and emotional abuse).

Unfortunately, being optimistic has done nothing to help me get a job. It's all about having rich and powerful friends who can give you a job--I must not have any of those kind. It's the people that run the economy, not the individual worker. I know when to get negative people out of my life, because I don't need someone making my life worse when I know I'm highly qualified and competent, but that just DOES NOT MATTER to bosses. They see competent people as a threat.

Oh, and going out and starting my own business? What happened? Well, it failed, not because I didn't know how to run a business, or because I did not produce a unique product, but because THE DEMAND WAS NOT THERE. Doesn't matter how good your product or service is, if people don't have discretionary income to purchase it. It's called demand-side economics, not supply-side like Mr. Jerkwad Friedman and the Chicago School espouse. Lots of supply, no demand means a full warehouse with no sales.

That's NOT my fault. It's the fault of the greedy bastards who run the economy.

Robert Ringer's books were useful in that they warned me to not let others steamroll me by intimidating me, because they probably didn't know as much as I did. People who sell themselves as experts often just have a huge ego and a fancy office they cannot pay for. Ringer's books have been misinterpreted by people who have not read them.

[1]

55. gloom and doom, cupcake. that is the du way. we don't cotton to positive anything here...

think dour. think badness. think doom...

each and every motherfucker ever born on this planet is out to get you. to take everything from you. to wreck you. to fuck you. to fuck you up.

that is the du way of thinking.

[pipoman]

57. Is not!

:evilgrin:

[conscious evolution]

58. I always liked the BoyScouts pessimistic attitude

as expressed in their motto:Be Prepared

[Dorian Gray]

59. Hey...

I think positive thinking is great. In a realistic way. But a lot of this self-help guru stuff... the Oprah-ization of realizing your dreams... the Secret style of getting what you want.... it just rubs me the wrong way. Especially when it blames the negative on negative thinking.

[sendero]

69. When you wish upon a star...

... it makes no fucking difference whatsofuckingever. And people who think otherwise are morons.

[Odin2005]

71. Optimism is one thing. Pathologically "sunny" thinking is something else.

Non-crazy optimists don't cut out "negative people" for one thing. :banghead:

[pipoman]

84. Like hell they don't

most people are naturally more positive than negative. Assuming you are a mostly positive, hopeful person, I would wager that you don't hang out with too many people who are more negative than you are. Most people would rather hang out with upbeat, hopeful people than dooms day downer people.

[raccoon]

75. Some really good responses on this thread. Some of the responses, however, not so good IMO,

indicate that the poster thinks in black-and-white: either you're a positive thinker, or a Debbie/Donald Downer. No in between. :eyes:

[pipoman]

83. I think many responses in this thread

are based on the author's description of her interpretation of positive thinking...not based on independent study of the subject.

[Touchdown]

86. And what did the author do if not an independant study?

:)

This is a thread discussing her book, so of course we're going to relate her words with our own experiences.

I realize that you have a differing POV on the definitin of positive thinking, but like so many other buzzwords, it may have been corrupted enough to take on a meaning that you don't identify with any longer. Same with libertarian, conservative, progressive, spiritual, christian, the list goes on. Words take on a life of their own once they become part of a zeitgeist, such as what happened when the positive thinking movement became positive thinking/motivational big business.

[harry.hamlin]

96. What's wrong with positive thinking?

Hey All,

I'm Harry, Just wanted to introduce my self as new comer into the forum and hope to learn and share. Positive Thinking: It's always nice to meet new people..

Thanks,