Can someone help me reply to this? Hate Mail from Christian Fundie Relative....

[KoKo]

I got this from my Christian Fundie GA Relative. Always sending me stuff that's anti-Dem, Obama, Gays, Females, etc... (you all know the Limbaugh deal). I always find good counter stuff to send him and even got him into checking Snopes as rebuttals.

When I googled "Pauline Howe," I figured I'd find lots of rebuttals to her story (some investigative reporting, etc) to send back to him. I've not been able to find anything. Thought some here might help me out as to what I can reply to him. This is what he sent me...and I need something that a RW Fundie who knows (according to him) ..."every verse in the Bible" and who accuses me of being a "Humanist/Secular Christian" (as if that's a perjorative) who just doesn't get that the "Bible" is the word of god and not to be defiled. In many other ways this guy is a decent person...worked for his American Airline Pilots Union and is with Dems on many issues. In last election he voted for Ron Paul. I managed to get him to vote for John Kerry...but when Kerry lost...he went back over to the "dark side." He could be a Progressive Dem...if he wasn't a fundie Christian. Now, he feels I betrayed him and he's back to sending me RW stuff. This is his latest.

ON EDIT: He works with many gays...and has no problem day to day on the airline...but for some reason when he leaves work he becomes some kind of nutcase about gays. I've never understood it. Sort of like a split personality...or some fundie fugue. Anyway, I always think I can get him converted.

Help!


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Grandmother who objected to gay march is accused of hate crime

From Daily Mail UK

After witnessing a gay pride march, committed Christian Pauline Howe wrote to the council to complain that the event had been allowed to go ahead.

But instead of a simple acknowledgement, she received a letter warning her she might be guilty of a hate crime and that the matter had been passed to police.

Two officers later turned up at the frightened grandmother’s home and lectured her about her choice of words before telling her she would not be prosecuted.

Mrs Howe, 67, whose husband Peter is understood to be a Baptist minister, yesterday spoke of her shock at the visit and accused police of ‘ wasting resources’ on her case rather than fighting crime.

‘I’ve never been in any kind of trouble before so I was stunned to have two police officers knocking at my door,’ she said.

‘Their presence in my home made me feel threatened. It was a very unpleasant experience.

‘The officers told me that my letter was thought to be an intention of hate but I was expressing views as a Christian.’

Mrs Howe’s case has been taken up by the Christian Institute, which is looking into potential breaches of freedom of speech and religious rights under the Human Rights Act, either by Norwich City Council or Norfolk Police.

And homosexual equality pressure group Stonewall has branded the authorities’ response ‘ disproportionate’.

Mrs Howe claims she was ‘verbally abused’ while distributing ‘Christian leaflets’ at the march in the centre of Norwich in July. She fired off a letter to the council describing the march as a ‘public display of indecency’ that was ‘offensive to God’.

She wrote: ‘It is shameful that this small but vociferous lobby should be allowed such a display unwarranted by the minimal number of homosexuals.’

The letter went on to describe homosexuals as ’sodomites’, said homosexuality had ‘contributed to the downfall of every empire’ and added that ‘gay sex was a major cause of sexually transmitted infections’.

But Mrs Howe told the Sunday Telegraph her comments were an expression of her beliefs, not homophobia. She received a response from the council’s deputy chief executive, Bridget Buttinger, who said it was the local authority’s ‘duty… to eliminate discrimination of all kinds’.

She went on: ‘The content of your letter has been assessed as potentially being hate related because of the views you expressed towards people of a certain sexual orientation.

‘Your details and details of the contents of your letter have been recorded as such and passed to the police.’

The two police officers later turned up at her home in Poringland, near Norwich, and informed her the contents of her letter had caused offence.

The incident has echoes of the case of a pensioner couple who were lectured by officers from Lancashire Police on the evils of ‘homophobia’ and ‘hate crimes’ after criticising gay rights in a letter to Wyre Borough Council. Joe Roberts and his wife Helen, both Christians, were later awarded damages.

Christian Institute spokesman Mike Judge said yesterday: ‘People must be free to express their beliefs - yes, even unpopular beliefs - to government bodies without fear of a knock at the door from police.

‘It’s not a crime to be Christian but it increasingly feels like it.’

- From Prophecy News Watch

[paulsby]

1. it's the UK. they don't have free speech

like the US. sorry, but they don't

they have such laws as the "race relations act" and other laws that criminalize hate SPEECH.

she is wrong in claiming it's a crime to be christian (or any religion), but saying hateful things about a group in many cases can be prosecuted in the UK.

the USA has MUCH broader freedoms in regards to speech than the UK.

notice how because she made "hateful" statements her letters were passed along to police. and yes, people have been prosecuted in the UK for hateful speech.

and in france (see the bardot case, for example)

[jesus_of_suburbia]

27. That's all that needs to be said. The UK isn't the US.

This lady is terrible, but she would have the right to say it in the US.

She doesn't in the UK.


Follow the law or move out of your country.

[Touchdown]

2. I love how the fall of Rome is blamed on gays like Rome's collapse was a bad thing.

They tortured Christians and threw them to the lions. Gay people should be help up as heroes and saviors of the world for destorying Rome. Never has an empire so brutal and inhuman deserved to die. :shrug:

[msongs]

9. lol xtians got even for that in a factor of millions and millions nt

[Warpy]

3. Well, other than shooting the messenger

because the Telegraph is a well known right wing scandal sheet that gets its facts wrong much of the time, I'm afraid I'm just not familiar with hate crimes law in the UK. This is really, really far fetched, though.

You can tell your fundy relative that until the facts of this case come to light, he should avoid vacationing in the UK or any of the Commonwealth countries including many of the Caribbean islands. Perhaps he should stick to camping in the US this coming year.

That oughta shut him up.

I would be delighted if the bigoted old bag got the story right and that spreading lies about gays is illegal there. Unfortunately, I think there is likely both more and less to this story than the Telegraph reported.

[KoKo]

5. Thanks, Warpy. Maybe not enough folks have investigated her "ties" to some Brit Corporate group,

yet. I Googled her name and the article from the "Daily Mail" but there wasn't any push back or investigation.

Hopefully there will be more out there. He really goes for the "little person" getting trashed by authority and if this woman was a "put up job" by some organization or group...he would get that. As I said...he's more with us on the Left than his spewing about Gays and folks trashing the "Word of God" would lead one to believe. He usually takes my rebuttals and sends them on to his fundie friends...if I can expose a flaw in logic. I've become his "Truth Seeker" who works to give him facts. (I wish this wasn't so...but he's not a relative I can cut loose).

[Touchdown]

4. "Fact Checking Pauline Howe"... a blog was all I found so far.

A couple of days ago, Zack brought up the case of an elderly woman, one Pauline Howe, who was purportedly visited by police for protesting a gay pride march. The story seemed a little unusual, and the visit excessive, so I decided to fact-check it a little bit. In researching, I found that, while a real event, the topic was really only mentioned in a couple of sources, particularly the far-right UK tabloid the Daily Mail. As this might indicate, the event took place in the UK, not any US location. Though free speech is of course still valued there, there is no constitutional enumeration protecting it to as high a level as in the US. As such, an attempt to equate hate crime policies in the two countries is futile at best.

The second issue is that, contrary to the Mail's claims, her attitude toward gays seems rather serious. From the Guardian UK:
The Mail described Howe's letter as an attempt to "complain", although the article later mentions in passing that Howe had described homosexuals as "sodomites" with "perverted" sexual practices that spread sexually transmitted diseases.
Further, it wasn't as if she was simply sitting at home writing letters, but actively attended the rally with the sole purpose of being intentionally intrusive to the marchers. Granted, no one has the right to not be offended, and the police visitation was more than a little excessive, but think: If someone showed up at the Million Man March dressed in the robes of a Klansman, what exactly do you recommend? Contrary to the protestations of some, there is absolutely a connection between these attitudes and very real violence. Attitudes like this don't happen in isolation, and people who go on about how much they hate gays, but always add "oh, but I wouldn't hurt them. I just think they deserve to die" need to learn that.

http://crazycompendium.blogspot.com/2009/10/fact-checking-pauline-howe-issue.html

[KoKo]

13. Thanks...this snip is interesting....

"Further, it wasn't as if she was simply sitting at home writing letters, but actively attended the rally with the sole purpose of being intentionally intrusive to the marchers. Granted, no one has the right to not be offended, and the police visitation was more than a little excessive, but think: If someone showed up at the Million Man March dressed in the robes of a Klansman, what exactly do you recommend? Contrary to the protestations of some, there is absolutely a connection between these attitudes and very real violence. Attitudes like this don't happen in isolation, and people who go on about how much they hate gays, but always add "oh, but I wouldn't hurt them. I just think they deserve to die" need to learn that."

I'll go check out the rest of the article. Thanks! :hi:

[RKP5637]

6. I can't help, but you have my sympathy having a Christian Fundie Relative. I don't have any, ...

it must be difficult sometimes dealing with stuff like this... I had a friend that dealt with stuff like this and it's like crashing constantly into a reinforced brick wall. So many have been programmed from birth and hold irrational beliefs.

[KoKo]

10. It's really hard. And, as I said in my post. This guy in many ways

is someone who could be with us...but his background and friends keep gnawing at him. And, It gnaws at me that I have to constantly try to help him. He send me stuff knowing I will rebut him...and so I have some kind of obligation...that I wish wasn't so. If he wasn't such a kind person in other ways I would have cut him loose years ago... I have other fundie relatives that I had to ditch long ago. You couldn't talk to them...they hated me and every thing I stood for. This guy isn't like that. But, he's on the edge... I don't want him to fall over.

[RKP5637]

19. It is great that you are trying to help him see different ways of thinking, it is

very commendable that you have and maintain your patience. It sounds like he is reaching out to you in his own way. I hope you are very successful in helping him not to fall over the edge. I'm sure his influences are considerable pushing him into fundie thinking.

[NMMNG]

7. Here you go

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/10/29/christian-institute-outraged-over-pauline-howe-slur-on-channel-4-tv/

[KoKo]

12. I think this might reach him... thanks...and I'll send him what happened to Matthew Shepard

Thanks! I think he will find this article something he will think about. :hi:

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" Howe intentionally tries to agitate people. She didn’t merely write a letter to the council while spending her days sitting at home, sipping tea and watching the telly. The gay rally she wanted banned was one she attended. She went with the express purpose of handing antigay tirades to gay people. This sweet old lady was not so sweet after all."

Howe said she went with other ‘Christians’ to protest ‘the public display of such indecency on the streets of Norwich which is so offensive to God and to many Norwich residents’. She handed out anti-gay leaflets to people at the rally. So she was intentionally offensive to them. And people responded, as you might predict. But no one violated her rights. She says that the people she attacked ‘were in our faces with aggressive verbal abuse.’ In other words, the people at the rally responded to her speech with their own speech.

It’s also worth reading this piece on the CL blog. (My thanks to BarrieJohn for the links.)
because he probably never knew about that incident.

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"Incidentally, on the same day that Channel 4 aired its report, President Obama signed a hate crimes bill into law which now covers violent federal hate crimes committed against members of the gay community.

Under existing federal law, hate crimes are defined as those motivated by the victim’s race, colour, religion or national origin – but not sexual orientation.

Said Obama:

Prosecutors will have new tools to work with states in order to prosecute to the fullest those who would perpetrate such crimes because no one in America should ever be afraid to walk down the street holding the hands of the person they love.

The new hate crimes is named in memory of Matthew Shepard, the gay Wyoming college student who was murdered 11 years ago."


* email

[NMMNG]

20. Indeed

Idiots like that go in with the intent to cause trouble (Phyllis Burgess, the styrofoam cross lady, anyone?). Then when they get it they pretend they're innocent "victims" of "persecution". Bullshit.

[Warpy]

14. Holy smokes! The comments are especially enlightening

especially the one that overturned the church's rock and found Ian Paisley squirming under it.

Great stuff, a really good find.

[petronius]

8. Not everything has to be rebutted. In this case it sounds as though a police

department in England may have overreacted to a letter (can't say for sure without reading the letter). In that case, they'll get slapped for it eventually.

If you really want to respond, you could point out that this woman's views are repugnant but she's entitled to have them, that her right to an opinion is even more strongly protected here in the US (largely due to the work of liberals), and that the notion of it 'feeling like a crime to be Christian' is hyperbolic nonsense - even more nonsensical if said here in the US, given the degree to which Christianity pervades our society...

[Touchdown]

11. It could also be pointed out that this woman wailing about "Free Speech"

ends when it comes to those "Sodomites" holding a parade that doesn't involve her husband's church. While she's painting herself as a victim, she's actiovely trying to deny those sasme rights to others, which is why she got in trouble in the first place.

From the Freethinker link above..."This wasn’t a little old lady exercising her right to “free speech”, but a malignant old crone stirring up mischief and hoping to be painted as the “victim” again!!"

[petronius]

15. Yes, I definitely agree those points should be made

She made a determined effort to squash other people's right to free expression, and yet it sounds like some of those same people came to her defense when her own rights were (possibly) infringed. I don't like using this argument because I'm not a Christian, but it could be asked who in this situation was truly exhibiting Christ-like behavior...

[OhioBlue]

23. that is exactly what I noticed too. n/t

[rucky]

16. Rebuttal:

Quit sending me that crazy hate shit.

[Sebastian Doyle]

17. "Christian Institute spokesman Mike Judge "???

It can't be THAT Mike Judge...... just can't be!

[Touchdown]

18. Easy to tell. How many pieces of flair is he wearing?

;)

[johnaries]

21. Rastafarians aren't allowed to smoke pot. Native Americans aren't

allowed to take peyote. "Religious freedom of expression" is not an excuse to break the law. And, I'm sorry, but saying that someone is an "abomination" is hate speech.

[shimmergal]

25. Except, to lots of us, the

concept of "abomination" is fairly quaint and out of touch. You might point out it says more about the user than about whoever it's aimed at.

[rebel with a cause]

22. Do what I did to my fundie relative.

email them the following: I love you too much to not be truthful with you. I disagree with your position and agree with the fact that one should not use hate speech in their communications that might cause a threat to the welfare of others.

Of course I have not heard from my fundie relative since then. :rofl:

[greennina]

24. Why do you still talk to the idiot?

Serious, you'd be better off never seeing this person again.

[southernyankeebelle]

26. Ask her if god is suppose to be on the republicans side then why is everything

they do is not what god wants? You see using their logic they are only the real good americans and the rest of us are going to go to hell. Yet god didn't give them the white house back, or the house or the senate. God doesn't like nasty. The republicans are so good at saying doing as I say not as I do. You see in their eyes it is exceptable to have an unwed mother like Bristol Palin. Its ok if their congressmen, senators and governors have affairs because all they need to say is god forgave them. Then it makes it all better you see. They don't want you to look at the plank in their eye because they are to busy looking at your democrat faults.