Is NC Blue Cross Blue Shield violating postal regulations?

[drm604]

In this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6853620
Lex describes a clever tactic that she is using in response to a lobbying campaign being run by Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina.

BC BS of NC are sending out postage paid reply cards opposing what they call "government run health insurance". She is changing the message to one in support of the Public Option before she mails it.

This sounds like a great idea and I applaud her for it. But there's something about that reply card that bothers me. The reply cards are addressed to Senator Kay Hagan.

I'm not a lawyer and I don't work for the Post Office but, Unless Senator Hagan is paying for the postage for these reply cards, isn't this a violation of postal regulations?

Here is an image of the front of the card:

It say quite clearly "Postage Will be Paid by Addressee".

I thought that the "addressee" was the person or entity that the letter is addressed to.

Merriam Webster seems to confirm this.

Main Entry: ad·dress·ee
Pronunciation: \ˌa-ˌdre-ˈsē, ə-\
Function: noun
Date: 1810

: one to whom something is addressed

Here's what the Post Office says:

For an annual permit fee, a Business Reply Mail (BRM) permit is available for distributing business reply cards, envelopes, self-mailers, cartons, and labels. BRM allows the permit holder to receive First-Class Mail and Priority Mail back from customers by paying postage only on the mail returned.

(Emphasis is mine.)

Is BC BS of NC getting a break on postage costs by abusing Business Reply Mail? Are they violating postal regulations?

Maybe I'm wrong and maybe this is common practice, but it seems shady to me.

[annabanana]

1. So Blue Cross is expecting the Senator to pick up the tab?

That CAN'T be right...

[robinlynne]

3. no blue cross paid the postage. The OP is saying, Blue Cross is paying cheaper postage,

as if the card were a return card to Blue Cross.

[drm604]

4. I doubt that they expect her to pickup the tab, they'll pay for the postage,

but this seems to be an abuse of the intent of business reply mail.

It almost seems like one could argue that, since Senator Hagan is the Addressee, they are paying the postage for her. Couldn't that possibly be an illegal donation? I suspect it's not since it doesn't really benefit her or her campaigns, but it's something to consider.

[dixiegrrrrl]

14. The other way areound, perhaps.

And THAT ain't right either.

[Spazito]

2. Good question!

Given the addressee is Senator Hagen, the taxpayers are on the hook for this? Adding to that, the sender is Blue Cross/Blue Shield as identified in the left hand corner so does this mean it is an arrangement between Senator Hagen, the addressee, and Blue Cross/Blue Shield, the sender, to have the taxpayers be on the hook for this piece of propaganda or, more likely, Senator Hagen is unaware Blue Cross/Blue Shield has done this via the questionable process you have brought out? I will watch your thread with interest, I hope you get answers to your questions!

[drm604]

6. No, I didn't mean to imply that Senator Hagan would pay for this.

Obviously Blue Cross will pay for it, but this seems to be an abuse of business reply mail, which is supposed to be a way to give a business a break in receiving mail back from their customers. It's not intended to be used to mail something to someone other than the permit holder, so this seems to be a violation. Unless, of course, Senator Hagan or her office is the permit holder, which I doubt, but which would raise even bigger questions.

[Spazito]

19. I understand more clearly what it is you are concerned about...

as well as a little more on how the business reply mail is supposed to be used versus how Blue Cross/Blue Shield has used it. It is stated very clearly on the USPS site that you "pay only for the pieces that are returned to you."

Everything regarding Business Reply Mail relates only to correspondence between the business with the permit and it's customers in order for the business to receive feedback, etc, from their customer. There is NOTHING that states it can be used as it has been by Blue Cross/Blue Shield that I can find.

http://www.usps.com/replymail/business.htm

[Lex]

5. I think you may be on to something. The USPS is very strict

about how those discounted postal rates can be used, iirc. This is not something coming BACK to them from their customers, but lobbying to a 3rd party. Hmmmm.

[Tigress DEM]

7. If the Senator is receiving this "legally" does that make her a BC BS EMPLOYEE?

This is really an unintentionally obvious admission of buying off a Senator if BC BS members are considered the Senator's "customers" in whatever capacity she legally represents BC BS.

:sarcasm:


If she doesn't work for them, no way should they be using their postal account to route their "business reply" mail to someone who isn't employed by them. One way or another - it's wrong.

[onethatcares]

8. the real question is

who does she work for, the people or bluecross & blueshield?

Apparently she's been bought and paid for by the corporats.

[CreekDog]

29. Why is Kay Hagan to blame for what some stupid company decides to mail to her?

your comment is completely wrong and unfair.

how about we mail them to you instead and make you the bought and paid for one? :eyes:

[drm604]

32. Correct.

This was most likely done without Senator Hagan's knowledge or consent. She should object to this since it makes it appear that her office is paying for these mailings.

[Trekologer]

9. I posted this to the other thread... the address is likely BCBS's

Its probably a trick for them to claim "Look! All these customers of ours wrote to us to say they don't want a public option!!!!"

[drm604]

11. Nope.

If you go here: http://congress.org/congressorg/bio/id/5415
and click on the "contact" tab, you'll see that that is the address of her Greensboro office.

[Trekologer]

13. Then by all means, send it in

The use of business reply mail for that purpose is still a little suspect.

[Lex]

18. It's so easy to check before posting absolute conjecture.

nt

[Celebration]

10. Isn't business reply mail actually more expensive?

In any case, I am DEFINITELY recommending this thread. There may be something to all this.

[drm604]

12. I'm not sure.

This is why I asked. I'm hoping someone here has some answers. This may be something, or it may be nothing.

[madrchsod]

17. first class mail is more expensive and is handled differently from other mail

[Cal Carpenter]

15. Usually pre-paid postage is used for reply cards

which is why it says 'postage will be paid by addressee'. That's the standard language used.

But the odds are good that in this case it's being paid by BCBS - the bar code thing under the address gets scanned and Permit #130 will get billed for any cards that get mailed.

We do mailings with postage-paid reply envelopes where I work. I don't think it matters where they get mailed to.

[drm604]

16. But it seems like it's not being used the way the PO says it should be used.

The regs say that it is for having customers reply to the permit holder, and the actual card states that postage will be paid by the addressee. Unless Senator Hagan is the permit holder, then that is not how they are using it, and she's not paying the postage (although the card says otherwise). If she is the holder then that raises other questions.

I've been looking around the net trying to see if there's a way to determine the holder of that permit number. No luck so far.

[Trekologer]

20. It does seem that BCBS is violating the BRM (business reply mail) rules

A couple posters jumped on me in this and another thread for suggesting that the address on the card might not be that of the senator's office. Any yes, I didn't check into what the senator's office address was--bad on me.

However, it does seem that the USPS regulations suggest that this is not a proper use of BRM (business reply mail).

The layout guidelines (http://pe.usps.com/text/qsg300/Q507a.htm) say of the address, "he complete address, including the name of the permit holder (company or individual), must be printed on the mailpiece".

Further, the BRM permit can be used by agents of the permit holder for mail to be returned to the agent (http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/507.htm#wp1046991). If this is, in fact, BCBS's permit, then it is improper for it to be used to send mail to the Senator. If its the Senator's permit, then it is improper for BCBS to be distributing mailpieces using it.

[CreekDog]

30. I don't blame BCBS of NC for getting this wrong

i'm sure they are using all their expertise to deny health insurance claims. :dilemma:

[drm604]

21. I'm not knowledgable about how these permits work

but in the "Business Reply Mail" block it says "PERMIT NO. 130 GREENSBORO NC". That must mean permit number 130 for Greensboro, since I doubt that it's the 130th permit in the whole country.

This page on BCBS NC's website shows a number of different NC addresses for the company: http://www.bcbsnc.com/content/corporate/company/contacts.htm

None of the addresses appear to be in Greensboro. Senator Hagan's address is in Greensboro. So it may be that the permit was obtained by her (or her office) or was obtained in her name and address by BCBS. Both of those possibilities raise some questions in my mind.

If she (or her office) obtained the permit then are they paying for the postage? I find that doubtful. Why would she pay for lobbyists' expenses?

If BCBS took out a permit in her name and address - is that legal? Since it's in her name, Does that mean that they are paying some of her postal expenses? If so, it seems questionable.

[TicketyBoo]

22. A Google search finds

a BCBS office in Greensboro.

Blue Cross Blue Shield of NC
www.bcbsnc.com

2303 W Meadowview Rd
Greensboro, NC 27407-3726
[phone]

[drm604]

23. Interesting.

I'm undecided if what they are doing is legit or not. It does seem like it's a gray area at the very least.

Don't get me wrong, trying to get their customers to lobby against their own interests is ethically and morally wrong. The question is whether or not they are violating postal rules (and possibly the law).

[TicketyBoo]

26. I'm thinking

that it isn't kosher to be sending mail to a third party using your Business Reply Permit.

It probably should be reported to the local postmaster and the postal inspector.

[CreekDog]

31. Someone should send Waxman some of these, I'm sure he'll be interested in his gov oversight role

about whether they are violating mailing rules and/or lobbying rules by doing this.

[xchrom]

24. let's contact them and show our displeasure while doing so? nt

[drm604]

25. Some info

Notice the address on the card pictured above.

701 Green Valley Road
Suite 201
Greensboro NC 27499-1081

Now notice the address for her Greensboro office given here: http://congress.org/congressorg/bio/id/5415

701 Green Valley Road
Suite 201
Greensboro, North Carolina 27408

Same address, different zip code.

According to the Post Office's website:

When designing a BRM mailpiece or label, mailers must consult with their local Post Office. The piece must conform to a specific format to qualify as BRM, including a unique ZIP+4 Code, or equivalent Intelligent Mail or POSTNET barcodes assigned by the USPS.

Since the zipcode on the mailer is different from the one listed at congress.org for the same street address, we can probably assume that the one on the mailer is the unique ZIP+4 required for a Business Reply Mailpiece. So apparently BCBS NC applied for a Business Reply Permit for Senator Hagan's address and prepaid the postage. This may or may not have been done with Senator Hagan's knowledge or consent.

Doing this may or may not be against the rules. I still find it questionable because the return card clearly states that the addressee will pay the postage.

It's still wrong, of course, for them to try to entice their customers into lobbying against their own interests.

Senator Hagan, by the way, is a Democrat. Maybe Lex can tell us how good a Democrat.

[PATRICK]

27. There must be some connection

between the two codes with the person named or the piece should be in great danger of getting tossed or researched for error. However being business reply and even with crumpling very likely to be machine handled according to barcode and zip only, no handler will think twice about the name. the actual delivery should show up at the barcode address which leads one to suspect that BC is gathering them first in a basket to deliver personally to the good Senator.

The deception comes from the address fooling the user into thinking it is going directly to her real address despite the infamous man-in-the-middle code device our usual suspects favor immensely. Sounds somewhat like fraud to me, although out in the open for anyone caring to research it.

What happens then to your cute comments, fake name etc.? Is some of it barred from reaching the named recipient, which would be a graver federal crime? Of course the real caveat is that one gets numbered stacks of these. Nothing will ever be read from such form letter mail even if all of them had reversing changes on the inside. Likely BC will not read them either before bundling- and might do a little extra fraud by dumping blanks or pre-filled out cards into the mix. Having blanks slipped in there can be explained away anyway- even blamed on the postal system. They would gladly pay for the unfavorable cards just to stuff the sacks, giving their falsehoods meaningless paper with real MSM weight- at your expense to pad the lie.

Ah, you would like to thing an pol rascal would churn out such fodder and have the expense paid by taxpayer salary or even a lobbyist and point to(without having to read any of course) the wave of public response. Or get spammers to flood his e-mail address in like manner. Lobbyists have to do all the work nowadays. As for honest pols, form letters are routinely tossed for all the obvious reasons. Only a crooked MSM or a crook can dare to give them any "weight".

In any event without a great deal of scrutiny over low value form mail- unless you really really trust BC- such a method has no public response credible value and they should be chucked. As a simple dirty PR they are a paper and postage expense dunned to the premium payers yet again. The arrival of this worthless paper from the dummy address in unmarked BC vans will be edited and trumpeted in the MSM.

As with electronic voting the real opinions, even those culled from the gulled, are absolutely without value in the controlled gimmick. The real fraud is in passing the postal trick and form letter off as something with as much value as a verbal or written message to the representative.

Other attempts to subvert this will not work, such as pasting the postcard on a heavy package as a label. It will be rejected and only cost the Post Office in processing. THAT fraud would be yours by the way. Yet tossing or not delivering a card because of the comments would by a crime if you could catch them on that- if they would even bother. No, I suppose the real point here is in the industry wasting yet more premium payer money on lobbying schemes to profit the industry and subvert democratic and informational rights.

[drm604]

28. I'm not following your thinking.

Why do you think that these are going back to BCBS? Regardless of the ZIP, at the end of the process the mail is handled by either a letter carrier or a person placing them in a PO box at the local post office. That person will look at the actual address and conclude that it's been misdirected. BCBS does not want that kind of confusion.

When you apply for a business reply permit for a given address, you are given a special ZIP code which is different from the normal ZIP code for that address, but is also valid. It seem obvious to me that BCBS applied for a permit for Senator Hagan's address and the different ZIP code is the special BRM ZIP.

[Shagbark Hickory]

33. This is precisely why I FLAT OUT REFUSE to get a private health insurance policy.

I don't care if the mandate comes with jail time, this is where our premiums will be going- to prevent any and all future reform efforts.

How many lives were prematurely ended to pay the postage for these postcards?

[no limit]

34. Can someone call the post office to get more info on this?

I'm sure they have a number you can call for BRM. I'm at work so I cant do it.

[TicketyBoo]

35. Huffington Post

is onto this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yuna-shin/bluecross-blueshield-of-n_b_329474.html