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What Kinds of Choices Do We Need For Our Health Care?

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 08:22 AM
Original message
What Kinds of Choices Do We Need For Our Health Care?
Most people would answer this by saying that they want to choose their doctor and make decisions about the kind of treatment they get. If you ask them if they enjoy trying to figure out which of dozens of insurance plans are both within budget and likely to actually reimburse them in the event of illness, you get a very different response. And of course with insurance provided by employers, there is often no choice offered at all other than turning it down. The very existence of thousands of private health insurers often eliminates the choice of practitioner entirely—you choose from their preferred provider pool or pay through the nose to go out of network. Even if you are lucky enough to develop an ongoing relationship with a doctor, it can be cancelled any time if your employer drops your plan, or even if the plan stays the same but the preferred provider list changes.

It is almost a general systems principle that eliminating or strictly limiting choices at the level of infrastructure is exactly what permits the largest variety of choices at the level of superstructure. It wouldn’t be possible at all to have the huge variety of electrical appliances we have today if manufacturers were allowed to make plugs any size and shape they felt like making them. I have yet to meet anyone who has felt oppressed by having only the choices of 110V or 220V for line voltage. Yet the congressional architects of current health care reform seem to think that offering a choice of insurance plans is far more important than choice of practitioner or treatment, yet it is those choices which are the very choices that private insurance limits or forbids entirely.

Good, useful choices: Lots of different electrical appliances: Your doctor, hospital and treatments

Bad, dysfunctional choices: Making outlets and plugs whatever size you want: Which hard to understand insurance plan you want to risk enrolling in

In addition to the systemic structural reasons for eliminating choice in health insurance plans, there is an ethical reason to do so as well. It makes me furious whenever anybody says that people ought to “be able to choose the plan that is best for their families.” This is one of the most morally and ethically vile things that anyone could ever say, because what they are really saying is that some people deserve good health care, and other people are relatively worthless sorts who do not. Families with more money are better than families with less money, who just ought to adjust to the greater odds that they may die or be bankrupted.

All current legislation describing an insurance "exchange" proposes having four different levels, each of which costs more and covers more. That includes the "public option" proposals as well. Every other developed country in the world, whether they achieve universal coverage with tightly regulated private insurance, outright government ownership of the health care system or the publicly funded privately delivered single payer system, provides a single standard of coverage for everyone with no exceptions. Co-pays and deductibles are far cheaper, if they exist at all. No age discrimination is allowed, in contrast to the proposed reforms which actually write such discrimination into law.

It’s certainly true that all these countries have multi-tiered health care in practice simply because the affluent buy extra bells and whistles for themselves over and above what the government either guarantees or provides to the general population. That is morally acceptable, because only after everyone’s basic health care needs have been met in a reasonably comprehensive way should "choice" should come into play in the area of health care. It's like Bill Gates being able to have an expensive sprinkler and fire alarm system that most people could never afford. That doesn’t matter as long as everyone gets the same fire engines in the event of fire. Why have our legislators written bills underpinned by the assumption that people with more money should have access to the health care equivalent of modern hook and ladder trucks and the rest of us should get something more like the horse-drawn wagons of a century ago? Only the cheapest plan would be eligible for subsidies.

According to the online calculator provided by the Kaiser Fountation(1), someone over 60 with a family income in the area of $40,000 be forced to pay $410-$450/month to get only 70% of expenses taken care of with the Basic Plan under HR 3200 (the best of the proposed reform packages). That includes both the allowable age discrimination and the offsetting subsidy. Under the single payer bill HR 676, individuals would all pay $125/adult/month regardless of age, and businesses would have a payroll tax of 8-10% above a certain (negotiable) threshold. (Note that businesses that self-insure generally are paying significantly more than that now). With the $325 savings per month, even someone at this modest income level could afford a choice of many self-financed gold-plated health care extras.

Conservatives, and Obama himself, say that raising taxes to pay for universal health care is unacceptable. Just how dim-witted does someone have to be in order to prefer a $450/month "premium" to a $125/month "tax"? There are probably a few sociopaths around who would cheerfully pay someone to saw off their dominant hand if the other half of the deal was that someone they hated got both hands sawn off, but how many of them could there actually be?

Why not force private health insurance into the business model now used by private life insurance? If you work, you must pay Social Security tax, and if you die before your dependents reach majority, they get Social Security survivors’ benefits. Despite this mandated government support of orphans with a single benefit level by all workers, a large variety of private life insurance plans are available because some parents want more income for their kids than Social Security provides. And buying such insurance takes not so much as one thin dime from the kids whose parents can’t afford that option.

Hey, Congress!!! I don’t want to “shop” for health insurance in any kind of “market”! I want to pay a tax to support a trust fund which pays for care when and if I need it, just like I pay my property tax to support the fire department. In the event of fire, they send a truck out. Just the truck and people with the training required to put out the fire. No more or no less than what I would need in that circumstance. No personal responsibility questionnaires to prove that I’ve taught my kids not to play with matches, that I have my wiring up to code, that I don’t store oily rags in the basement and am truly eligible for and deserving of assistance. And especially no tripling of my property tax just for using the service. There is not one single logical reason why a heart attack should not be treated (and paid for) like putting out a house fire. The cheapest and most efficient way to pay for health care is to pay for it like we pay for any other public good, like schools, roads, libraries, fire and police protection, or any other part of our society’s infrastructure.

(1)http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx#

Resources

http://www.healthcareforallwa.org/
http://www.pnhp.org/
http://www.1payer.net
http://www.healthcare-now.org
http://www.unitedforsinglepayer.org




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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. My main one is, we need it immediately, not
three years down the road. I know people with Medicare, Medicaid and my Husband has VA. Anything resembling any of those would work well.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. So tell your Congresscritters to allow anyone to buy into Medicare
That system is already set up and ready to go.
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I already have, on a weekly basis,
I also e-mail them and have talked to Betsy in person.:shrug: Thats about all I can do.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Good. I'm trying to get as many people upt to your commitment level as possible
So many think that just writing or calling once will do.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. The hardest question: what is basic care? If one is sick, basic care is what is needed to get well.

But to what illnesses will your basic care apply? Will we all get the same treatment for an extremely difficult to cure cancer as Bill Gates would, or someone with a net worth of $10 million would, or even someone with a net worth of 1 million would? Surely a person will spend whatever they have to get well, but how much should they be forced to spend to make someone else well? That is the tough call.

In fact we already pay for basic health "care" for all. Anyone who shows up at a hospital will get basic care even if the they can not pay. What we do not do now is have health insurance for all, but if we did, the hardest choice would be to set the level of basic coverage. All the ethical dilemmas you present would still be there, none are really solved by single payer health insurance.


I can agree with much of what you say, but I disagree strongly with this:

It makes me furious whenever anybody says that people ought to “be able to choose the plan that is best for their families.” This is one of the most morally and ethically vile things that anyone could ever say, because what they are really saying is that some people deserve good health care, and other people are relatively worthless sorts who do not.

I am not infuriated by people wanting to put their own interests first, it is basic human nature to provide for one's self and one family. We are not bees, or saints, or servants, and it is not reasonable to demand that people act as such. The onus is on those who design the public plans to design them well enough so that people are not forced to choose between the best interests of their own family and society at large.


Hey, Congress!!! I don’t want to “shop” for health insurance in any kind of “market”! I want to pay a tax to support a trust fund which pays for care when and if I need it, just like I pay my property tax to support the fire department.

Your analogy fits well with a model of local government supported health clinics that would give only basic emergency care rather that single payer health insurance.

However I don't see much difference in practice with what we have now. Hospitals take care of emergency cases for those who are unable to pay themselves, and we all subsidize this in the form of increased insurance premiums.











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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Sure people put their own interest first. That's why we have laws in the first place
--to restrain the ill effects of this tendency on social life. All developed countries have ONE comparatively high standard of care for everyone. Sure, that doesn't mean 100% coverage of every single eventuality, but it does set an acceptable basic standard. People are always free to buy extras--they do elsewhere and will continue to do so here.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. You really see no difference at all between $250,000 and $80?
The $80 was what it would have cost to get a kid's infected tooth treated. $250,000 is what society wound up spending on him in a completely futile attempt to save his life.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-24-09 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. We need several choices
There needs to be a plan for people that are generally healthy. Costs less in premiums--more if they have to use it. Option to upgrade to a higher plan should be available if someone were to become ill or begin to need a higher level of care. This would be great for college students, young adults, healthy older adults.

There should be a mid-plan for people who go to the doctor more frequently with chronic conditions. Premiums should be a little higher than the first plan, but copays and deductibles should be minimal to encourage active participation and compliance. Medication should be tiered so that the cost goes down the more prescriptions that are needed. This would be great for people that are still working and able to manage their diseases with medication and treatments. Again, option to upgrade should be available.

There should be a catastrophic plan for people that are unable to work anymore because of their illness or condition. Cost should be higher than the above plans with a sliding scale for the patient according to resources and the rest supplemented by the government. Copays, deductibles and prescriptions should be included in this plan--the cost should be figured into the sliding scale and government supplement. This would be great for people who cannot work due to illness or debility, the elderly, and the catastrophically ill. This plan should require medical certification annually to make sure that the person still meets criteria and their plan adjusted accordingly.

All plans should have some type of government assistance with premiums available if necessary. But there really is no reason to have more than these three plans.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. That is total crap. Why not make people who have fires pay higher taxes
--for the fire department? In every age demographic, 5% of the population accounts for 50% of the expenses. It is flat out not possible to take care of those high costs for a small minority without spreading the risk over the entire population. The biggest and cheapest risk pool is everybody.

In addition it is ugly, vile and morally disgusting to strip people of income just for being sick, or inclined to get sick. Jeebus. Is this a Democratic board any more? :puke: If you think that sick people are just disposagle human garbage, why not come right out and say that?
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Excuse me?
Edited on Sun Oct-25-09 06:53 AM by Horse with no Name
Your words, not mine. You are the one that wanted the mousetrap built for your strawman.
You really should try re-reading what I said in response to what YOU said.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. You said that health insurance should not be in the business of spreading risk
I said that it should. There is no excuse whatsoever for anything but a single standard of care and a single payment rate, subsidized if necessary. Want more than that? Fine. Universal risk sharing makes the system so much cheaper that you will be able to afford all the extra bells and whistles you want on your own dime.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Well I never said that
and I believe in Universal coverage. But whatever, you obviously aren't interested in discussion.
Was just trying to be within the realm of what you posted.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. If you propose three different cost tiers, you are not advocating equal risk spreading n/t
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. But YOU asked for choices
:shrug:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I asked to choose my fucking DOCTOR!
I do not want a bunch of choices for insurance. This is as stupid as wanting a bunch of choices of shapes and sizes for electrical plugs and outlets.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. You really should calm down
If you were paying attention, you would KNOW we are on the same side.
I appreciated your OP, and was just trying to have a conversation.
If you look around, you are not in that boat alone.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Sorry. I just see red when any hint of unequal health care is proposed
Sure, it's unequal in practice everywhere, but nowhere is it official government policy like it is here. One basic comprehensive plan, the same for everyone, at the same price. Want more? Buy all the bells and whistles you want on your own dime.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. And I agree with that
Just didn't realize that was the discussion you were looking for.
From now on I guess I should just give a quick K&r.:)
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours
:kick:
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'm tired of this issue being framed in terms of commodity and consumer
Edited on Sun Oct-25-09 04:13 PM by Cleita
by our own Democrats. This is a matter of health care access for those who need a doctor and treatment for a health problem. Everyone should have a health card regardless of their ability to pay. Every doctor and hospital should expect reasonable reimbursement for their services through that health card. We need to have that health card accessible to all who want to buy into it and available to those who can't buy into it like children, seniors and the disabled. This will take a national insurance plan that covers basic, comprehensive and quality health care. It needs to include health care providers in the conversation as to what they need for reimbursement for their services. But no health care providers other than the ultra-conservative AMA are the only ones who have a voice in this. The other doctors and nurses who want to be included are given token hearings or shut out altogether. I personally can't see where private health insurance plans are useful in any way to solve this problem and yet they are given unheard of access to our politicians to butt in as far as I'm concerned. They need to get out of the way.
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