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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 10:26 AM
Original message
the Swiss have some big troubles growing

http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/index.php?smp=&lang=eng


Swiss researchers have found that Alpine glaciers melting under the impact of climate change are releasing highly toxic pollutants that had been absorbed by the ice for decades. They warned in a study abstract published in the journal Environmental Science and Technology that it could have a "dire environmental impact" on "pristine mountain areas" as global warming accelerates. Much of the pollution was dumped on Europe's biggest mountain range by atmospheric currents from further afield, according to the researchers at three Swiss scientific institutes. Their study of layers of sediment from an Alpine lake formed by a hydroelectric dam built in central Switzerland in 1953 revealed "sharp" build-ups of now banned chemical compounds from industry and farming, including dioxins and pesticides like DDT. "We can confirm with the help of these layers that, in the 1960s and 1970s, POPs (Persistant Organic Pollutants) were produced in great quantities and were also deposited in this Alpine lake," said one of the authors, Christian Bogdal, of the Swiss Federal Laboratory for Materials Testing and Research. But while the concentration of POPs fell after the 1970s as many of those compounds were banned, the scientists found an unusual resurgence in more recent sediment from the past 10 to 15 years.

They concluded that the lake, the Oberaarsee, was largely fed by water from a nearby melting glacier that was releasing pollutants at a level comparable to when the compounds were still in use. "At this stage our study indicates that accelerated glacier melting due to global warming may also account for enhanced release of legacy organic pollutants at historically high levels," according to the full study. One of the scientists, Peter Schmid, told AFP on Wednesday that their findings were replicated at two other glacial lakes in the Swiss Alps. But another lake that was not fed by glaciers did not show any increase in the compounds. The authors said that that it was the first time that glaciers were demonstrated to be a secondary source of such pollution. Production and use of POPs was banned or restricted under an international treaty in 2001, although several major industrialised nations such as the United States had started to outlaw them in preceding decades. They are regarded as very durable and carcinogenic, and in some instances can be absorbed through the skin. Their release in an Alpine setting could lead to "short but intense pulses" of pollution in spring and summer, the scientists concluded. That could affect drinking water in Alpine huts, the food chain through fish from nearby lakes, irrigation facilities and even artificial snow on ski slopes. The Alps are commonly known as the water tower of Europe, as the source of major rivers such as the Rhine and Rhone. Schmid cautioned that more research was needed to determine the pathways of the POPs in the Alps and how much they retained their toxicity.
----------------------------------

get out the yellow HAZMAT tape
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. What's that about Chickens roosting?
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. Ja it's true. Switzerland was run by crazy people.
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 10:37 AM by Democracyinkind

.... I remember how my dad told me about how they had to dump munitions into lakes and stuff like that when he was in the military. Allot of shit this country did in the 60's and 70's is biting the people in the ass now. A perfect example of near-sightedness. I?m glad things have changed somewhat.
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jacko_be Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. In front off KNOKKE @ the coast we have 47 tons of musterdgas town just in see
la suisse is the only country who stooped doing it
we still do

and eh you know this expression
We didn't know

this does reminder me, just a question, did you already cleaned out the nuclear testing site
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. You mean the reactor that blew up in Lucens?
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 11:42 AM by Democracyinkind
All they did was seal it and forget about it, although it arguably is one of the most catastrophic accidents in nuclear history besides Chernobyl and Harrisburg. But the people forced the consortium that built it to pay for all present and future measures of securing the site, so all that could have been done by the people has been done.

And yes, the tide has changed. Anyone pulling this kind of creative discarding of waste would be busted right away.

And is KNOKKE a NATO-depository or a genuinely belgian one? Is that belgian-produced mustard gas? Crazy that the Belgians would want mustardgas when they still have live WWI-mustard grenades buried all over the country... Seems people never learn... crazy...
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jacko_be Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. no it was germans and we didn't know what to do with it
oh no the EU is not that old

so as normal in belgium, we did the dumbest thing we could imagine
we did thrown it in the sea, it was germans, but to prevent them from having it


and yes many farmers still hit on life armed munition wen they work

gives them quiet a shock i imagine

I was talking of you're testing facility for nukes
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jacko_be Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. sir, you could not be more wrong, they didn't chose the euro because suisse money
is more balanced then anny other value in the world
(reason why hitler did not invade la confedration Helvetique
la CH has an incredible democratic system
were the whole world is jealous about, they vote one what they want
LA CH also has LES ACCORDS BILLATEREAUX where they do have the
same rights as EU-members and they are IN the EU but not in there
value politics
LA CH is the most ecologic place in the world, the cleanest,
and really really really nice, they only pay 8% off taxes
we pay 21% sorry sir
you are wrong
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Surely the actual reason they didn't chose the Euro
is because they're not in the EU. :shrug:
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. They were offered the Euro just as other non-EU countries were offered it.
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 11:34 AM by Democracyinkind
We had not the slightest incentive to join. Even the germans resent the Euro nowadays, I couldn't be happier with the Swiss franc. It has parity of value with the dollar now which really makes it cheap to order books from the US now...
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jacko_be Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. I just put THEY HAVE LES ACCORDS BILLATEREAUX
that gives them the same rights
as any EU country; and they are
represented in the EU Parlament
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Lol. PLEASE!!! That most be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever read on this board.

In Switzerland, we have democracy. In the EU, you have bureaucratism and authoritarianism - I don't think anyone in his right mind would want to claim that EU Institutions are more democratic than Swiss Institutions are.

Switzerland is, as far as democracy is concerned, a model of participation and self-rule by consent and consensus. It's blatantly absurd to claim that Switzerland refuses to join the EU because the EU is too democratic for Switzerland - obviously it's the other way around - Switzerland can not join because our constitution demands that PEOPLE HAVE THE LAST WORD - something that is incompatible with EU law.

Please visit some time and find out for yourself.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jacko_be Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. No, they are just less dumb then, the other countries who did sing up
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jacko_be Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. we have calculators, and they prove i'm right,
and the people really regret it now
the rich don't off course, but it was not an improvement
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. LOL:. Don't you just love ignorant Americans lecturing you about Europe?


I'm so happy I can choose and switch between US/Swiss whenever I feel like it. Reading some of the comments on this board, I definitely feel Swiss. Maybe I should consider that when the Americans come asking for my taxes again... LOL ....
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jacko_be Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. where are you in suisse the french or the german part
I never loved a place as much as i do love LAUSANNE it's great
really is do you know it ?
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I live in Bern, which is exactly on the line between german and Francaise.
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 12:18 PM by Democracyinkind
And yes, j'aime Lausanne. La citée du lac ... I used to be a skateboard freak as a teen and Lausanne is THE town to Skateboard... In fact I would agree that Lausanne is probably the coolest city in Switzerland. I grew up in Zurich though...
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jacko_be Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. dac
j'ai jamais ete a zurich, mais ma ex vennais de lausanne
alors j'y suis allee quelque fois... j'aime trop
surtout les boites caronnes trop.
la Ch est un pays de reve.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Ah, voilà.... Les filles Lausannoise.... Elles sont vraiment excéptionelles!


C'est très sympa que tu a choisi de participé ici... Bonsoir!
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jacko_be Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. je ne less pas insulte un pays de reve bonne soiree a vous aussi
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Think in lockstep? What measurement do you use for that statement?
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 12:06 PM by Democracyinkind
Compared to the US or to our neighbors to the west and south, the spectrum of thought is clearly broader in Switzerland.

What do you mean by too selfish? Are you saying that the will of the people not to be divested from their traditional political rights is somehow selfish? Why doesn't the US merge with Canada and Mexico? Because you are to selfish? or is that a bit of a simplification?

Hearing the lockstep-accusation just pushes my buttons as a double citizen. I'd be living in America if it were like you said; in fact, when I chose to move back to Switzerland the broad spectrum of thought here played a large part. I don't see how your claim holds up considering that this is a nation of 4 distinct languages, styles of government and culture. Diversity is all that Switzerland is about, politically. We are ruled by a coalition of the 5 largest parties... and on and on and on... Lockstep is so out of touch with what I perceive around me here.

And what does self-important mean in this context? Our political rights are important to us, like you or anyone else we wouldn't want to give them up just to partake in the "baby USA" imperial folly that the EU is. The EU is neither progressive nor liberal nor democratic. In fact, it already shows the same kind of federal fever that the left in the US traditionally opposes. Considering that majorities in most countries would want to exit the EU by now or at least refuse the so called "constitution" I don't see how keeping out of that story is selfish or self-important. Really... What is the propositional content of saying " Switzerland is too self-important to join the EU" ... This sounds really absurd to me. If the PEOPLE of Switzerland would feel that the EU was something worth participating they would. But people are informed and two thirds oppose it, for many good reasons.

Switzerland is one of the if not the most progressive nation in Europe. Of course that progressivism is subsidized by a third of the world's wealth sitting here but that's a whole other story.

Just tell me.

-In what ways is Switzerland i) backwards ii) selfish iii) self-important besides the general feeling that you seem to have picked up here.?? Thanks in advance for answering this question with facts, not just with some touristy obeservation.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. 'a third of the world's wealth sitting here but that's a whole other story'
No. That is the story.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Now whose culpability is that? The rich bastard Americans that cheats you or the greedy fuck who
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 12:19 PM by Democracyinkind
agrees to hide the stuff for a small commission? I'm pretty sure it is both party's fault.
And frankly, I as a citizen can do nothing about this - America has just shown how to deal with this problem and we have gladly complied - the doings of UBS et al. are viewed very very critically by the swiss people.

So I get you right: The fact that Switzerland is the world's place to deposit reserves (70-90% of which is here legally, without cheating any nation out of taxes) makes Switzerland selfish, backwards and self-important?

I only mentioned that as an aside fact, you didn't base your assertion of backwardness, self-imoprtance and selfishness on that basis before. Which makes me wonder what you are trying to pull here.

In what way does the political stability of Switzerland (which is the main reason for about 70 to 90 percent of funds sitting here) make Switzerland backwards, selfish and self-important.?????

And please answer the question I asked you upthread to show me that you're not just pushing my buttons here. If this is truly your view, you must be able to articulate it. I'd be very interested in that because I have never witnessed this kind of perception of Switzerland before... (at least when it does not concern the real skeletons in the closet)
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jacko_be Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. hahahah
so does monaco, and lichtenstein, duhbai, off shore islands
and they already closed 75% of bank secret
do you have facts or just telling something ?
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Don't worry about it, Democracyinkind.
Someone obviously was served some bad fondue during a tourist trip here, and it probably was because he was wearing shorts, black socks and Birkenstocks in February, or maybe because he wanted to put a CHF 1.50 postcard on his VISA in a crowded bookstore. ;)
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Thanks Heidi. Your post helped me to cool off.
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 12:36 PM by Democracyinkind
you've got some witty humor going there. I like.

I just remembered that I discovered you weeks ago and wanted to mail you to hear your story. How that slipped my mind will be the subject of further investigations. Thanks for posting....
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. I did think it was bad that CH is not part of EU
My cousin said something like, 'why should we join and have to deal with a bunch of problems? Let them work things out and then we can join.'

As for the Swiss being grim. It seemed to me that Chur was buzzing with people sitting at tables and chatting and I think our own downtowns are much less social. Also the traffic there was kinda crazy, but the drivers seemed relaxed, always willing to stop for a pedestrian or cyclist whereas Americans, myself included, typically want others to 'get the hell out of my way'.
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Democracyinkind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I get your point... But the EU's problems are self-made, so we want no part of them.
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 12:34 PM by Democracyinkind
We already paid them a few billions in "SOLIDARITY PAYMENTS" and since those we're my taxes I already feel I have helped the EU enough. Besides, we still give development funds to eastern european countries, which the rest of the world has stopped.

My friends from the states that visit here are always baffled by traffic in Europe... The weakest participant in traffic generally has the most rights here, so it functions pretty well. It's really something totally different than driving in America, although I'd have to confess that being behind the wheel is more fun in the USA generally (when we are not talking of commuting or other not-for-pleasure-drives...)
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jacko_be Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. the idea behind eu was good
but we took to many less fortuned not democratic
not free countries in it, i'm glad the turks couldn't
join jet. and as we are well aware politics
are ruining a good idea yet again
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. The driving schools here teach us to defer to cyclists,
and I know that for a fact because I took driving lessons before applying for my Swiss license. Cyclists are far more vulnerable than we folks in cars are (though I more often take public transportation or walk than drive), and that's drilled into people by the driving instructors, again by the examiners and again by the police (should one not have learned it from the driving instructors or examiners). :hi:
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. Self-deleted by a US citizen and resident of Switzerland.
Edited on Fri Oct-16-09 12:09 PM by Heidi
Please note that I'm not deleting out of respect for YOU, but because other tactics are more effective.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Those other tactics are never as much though.
Give in to the Dark Side, Luke! :)
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. Give me Bulgaria any day!
:sarcasm:
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