Was the "botched execution" in Ohio an example of torture?

[oberliner]

Broom's botched execution has proven a huge embarrassment to the Ohio authorities after the prisoner submitted a court affidavit that described his two hours on the execution gurney as "torture".

Three guards stood around him as two nurses tried to insert needles into his arms. "The female nurse tried three separate times to access veins in the middle of my left arm. The male nurse tried three separate times to access veins... in the middle of my right arm," Broom said in the affidavit.

The nurses worked for 30 minutes without success and then took a break. "After the break, the female nurse tried twice to access veins in my left arm. She must have hit a muscle because the pain made me scream out loud," Broom said. "The first time the male nurse successfully accessed a vein in my right arm. He attempted to insert the IV, but he lost it and blood started to run down my arm."

Eventually the female nurse decided she could not go on and walked out the room. "The correction officer asked her if she was OK. She responded 'no' and walked out," the affidavit said.

A second break was called. "The correction officer on my right patted me on my right shoulder and told me to relax while we take a break. At this point, I was in a great deal of pain. The puncture wounds hurt and made it difficult to stretch or move my arms," said Broom.

But the prisoner was not relaxed. Not only was he in pain but he was angered by the male nurse who blamed Broom for the ordeal by accusing him of destroying his veins by injecting drugs.

"I was upset with this comment because I have never used heroin or any intravenous drugs," he said. "I tried to assist them by helping to tie my own arm." The male nurse massaged Broom's left arm and laid hot towels across it in an attempt to make a vein stand out, but it proved futile and a third break was called.

"At that point I became very upset. I began to cry because I was in pain and my arms were swelling. The nurses were placing needles in areas that were already bruised and swollen. I requested that they stop the process and I requested to speak with my attorney," said Broom.

But the attempt to kill him did not stop. A third nurse entered the room and hunted for a vein in Broom's right ankle. The needle hit the bone and he screamed.

"At the same time the head nurse was attempting to access a vein in the lower part of my left leg, the male nurse was simultaneously attempting to access a vein in my left ankle," he said. "I had been poked at least 18 times in multiple areas all in an attempt to give me the drugs that would take my life.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/06/ohio-lethal-injection-delay

[kctim]

1. Nope.

[sharp_stick]

2. Probably not torture

idiocy, no question, incompetence, of course and stupid obviously.

Only in America do we try to sanitize the Government taking of life to any degree. Ever since NY decided that the electric chair was a "more humane" method of execution it's just gone from weird to really fucking weird.

Now they use medicines to put a prisoner to sleep while he/she is covered by a blanket so nobody can see the straps buckling them to a table. We only do this to make it seem clean and neat to the people doing it, watching it and reporting on it.

I've never been able to figure out why this is better than putting a bullet in the back of the guys head? The death penalty is a failed tool and in this country it's simply a really really pathetic joke.

[Solly Mack]

3. That's sick

Sick.Sick.Sick.

[Botany]

4. Mr. Broom kidnapped, rapped, and murdered a teen girl.

He had also served time for the kidnap and rape of 12 year girl prior to the murder
which put him on death row. I feel no pity for his pain and mental suffering.

If they can not find a vein on Mr. Broom put a few drops of cyanide in his mouth along w/
a topical anesthetic or just shoot him. As long the death penalty is on the books no need to sugar
coat it because it is about killing a human being.

BTW I oppose the death penalty because it costs too much, takes too long,
and in many cases the convict does not get a quality attorney.

[BoneDaddy]

10. I tend to agree

Hard to have compassion for him. I am against state sanctioned murder, I think they should have let the girl's family at him. That is justice.

[Botany]

20. I had a friend murdered as she fought a rapist.

I have no pity for those people.



2 .32 cal. slugs at the base of the brain and quit fooling around w/
the other stuff.

BTW According to a lawyer i know who does some capital cases (pro bono)
he told me that the death penalty will never get off the books ..... any man
or woman running for judge who says that they are against capital punishment
will almost always loose in an election because they will be painted as weak on crime.

[BoneDaddy]

22. Right, and the problem I

have with it is that it has, historically, been innaccurate, especially with people of color and the poor. But in cut and dry situations like this or serial killers and rapists, the common good outweighs the individual's life. They should never ever have a chance to escape.

Edited: and i am so very sorry about your friend. That is horrible

[armyowalgreens]

35. Please point out what "common good" comes from capital punishment.

[BoneDaddy]

44. Like in the incident of Ted Bundy

the scumbag never has a chance to escape from jail, nor do we have to pay for him with our tax dollars.

That is for the common good. It protects everyone else.

[armyowalgreens]

46. The odds of someone escaping from jail are extremely slim...

And in no way justifies mass execution.

[BoneDaddy]

56. I am not advocating for "mass execution"

only for those who have committed the most aggregious and damaging crimes against other humans.

[armyowalgreens]

58. That's because you like vengeance.

[BoneDaddy]

61. No, that is your projection

your sense of superiority, not mine. It is a necessity to make sure that this individual does not have the chance to do this again. It is clean, not with glee or any vengence. I approach it as a gardener or an steward/ranger. If I see a dangerous weed that threatens my garden, I pull it out. If a predator threatens my herd or preserve, I take it out. It is simple, necessary.

[armyowalgreens]

64. This isn't a weed. We aren't lions. Stop trying to dodge the situation...

Give me all the metaphors you can possibly imagine. I don't give a shit how you justify killing in your mind.

I know it makes you feel more comfortable with the situation by simplifying, dehumanizing it. But that isn't reality.

This isn't a weed. It's a human. We aren't lions. We are highly intelligent beings with the capacity to protect without instantly resorting to killing.

[sendero]

68. Rabid dogs..

...have to be put down. End of fucking story.

[armyowalgreens]

69. I sometimes question the future of humanity when the "progressives" act like such fools.

[sendero]

73. You are ..

.... the fool. Fool. Some people cannot be saved, it is that simple.

Am I for the death penalty? Only in open and shut cases where the perp is guilty beyond all doubt. There are plenty of such cases.

[armyowalgreens]

79. "Only in open and shut cases where the perp is guilty beyond all doubt."

Do you expect me to pat you on the back? I don't thank anyone for wishing death on another.

[Dorian Gray]

76. I say this as someone who is anti-death penalty

Accusing someone who is for the death penalty as being in it for the vengeance is short sighted.

Remember, it is a person who has committed a crime that is so egregious that would lead to the DP. They've already dehumanized their victims, and there can be an argument made that they have forfeited their right to live in society.

Raping and murdering multiple people is such a crime.

No, I don't want the perpetrator of said crime to be put to death, but I have my own reasons for that. But they deserve a just punishment for their crimes against the victim and against society. There is an argument to be made for the DP in such situations, and I don't believe that someone who supports such a sentence does so for reasons of vengeance (solely).

[armyowalgreens]

78. "Accusing someone who is for the death penalty as being in it for the vengeance is short sighted."

No it's not. Not at all.

You have whatever argument you hold in order to be against the death penalty. But not all anti-DPers are alike.


"There is an argument to be made for the DP in such situations, and I don't believe that someone who supports such a sentence does so for reasons of vengeance (solely)."

That's perfectly fine to believe it. I think you are wrong, but I'm not going to stop you.

[BoneDaddy]

91. I am a realist

and your sense of superiority is gagging. "Liberals" such as yourself spend more time trying to protect the ugliest side of humanity, living in fantasy land.

The predators out there would care less about your liberal values if you met them.

[armyowalgreens]

95. You're not a "realist".

[BoneDaddy]

101. ok...great explanation

lol.. way to further explain your position.

[jinto86]

70. So you think Timothy McVeigh should be alive right now?

[armyowalgreens]

71. Yes.

He should not have been executed.

[jinto86]

72. Same thing for those executed after the Nuremberg trials

Just checking.

[armyowalgreens]

75. You are correct.

[Marr]

103. What's wrong with vengeance?

I'm not sure where I stand on capital punishment, but I've never understood the accusation from Death Penalty opponents that some people 'just want vengeance'. Is that supposed to be shameful? I don't see why it should be.

If someone lives according to society's rules (I'm speaking here of the victims and their families), why *shouldn't* they expect vengeance? Doesn't society owe them as much?

The argument that our legal system is flawed is a sound one, and, I think, convincing.

[armyowalgreens]

106. Vengeance and justice are mutually exclusive. So it's okay to want vengeance...

As long as you don't want justice.

Pick your poison.

[Marr]

107. How are they mutually exclusive?

You say it like it's a maxim, but I don't see it. The old line about 'an eye for an eye' is, I think, a basic form of justice. It's also pure vengeance.

Are you assuming that all crimes have some other motivating factor at their core, and we should only *treat* violent criminals, never punish?

[armyowalgreens]

108. Vengeance is inherently unjust.

...

I think this is an extremely relevant topic because we are always talking about injustices in the world. But what is Justice?


According to Webster, justice can be

“ 1 a: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments”


I think that it is extremely important to focus on the phrase “the maintenance...of what is just” because it really defines the purpose of seeking out justice for wrongs. The purpose of seeking justice is to maintain what we consider to be a proper ethical system. In other words, we don't want people running around committing crimes.

Of course you could look even further into that by saying that the reason why we seek to keep a “proper ethical system” is so that we may preserve humanity and happiness (or simply the lack of suffering). So, in the end, the reason why we seek justice is so we can prevent humans from suffering. We do not seek justice because of a higher power. Justice should function purely on logical grounds.

There also needs to be a clear line established between justice and vengeance. Vengeance is the infliction of punishment or suffering because of some wrong. An act of vengeance is not taken with regard to how that act betters society. It is not taken with regard to anyone else's welfare. It is a SELFISH ACT.

An example of vengeance would be the father of a rape victim hunting down the rapist and killing him or her because of his anger. It is an action without regard for the rapists welfare or the welfare of society. It an irrational action based on anger.

That means that vengeance can never truly be just because justice is acting with more than just regard for ones self. Justice is a selfless action. It takes into account the welfare of everyone.



That is why the desire to lock up a 14 year old and 19 year old for the rest of their lives because of their crimes is not justice. It is vengeance.

That is why capital punishment is not justice. It is vengeance.


True justice would mean that we try as best we can to change the way that 14 and 19 year old thinks. True justice would be trying to change the way a murderer thinks.

It doesn't just take into account the welfare of the perpetrators. It also means that we care about the welfare of everyone in society. Who knows what the 14 and 19 year old are capable of? If they can turn their lives around, they can contribute to the betterment of man. The same goes for a murderer or any other criminal.

I am not saying that all criminals can change their lives. What I am saying is that we must give them the opportunity to do so. To do otherwise would be unjust.


If we truly want to function as a just society, we need to rethink the way we treat everyone.

[Marr]

109. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think your examples work.

You claimed that the death penalty is vengeance, not justice-- and that vengeance is inherently irrational and done without consideration of the larger society. I don't think that's necessarily true. In either case, the example you used was one of vigilantism, which is illegal.

I'll just return to the old line about 'an eye for an eye'. While it's certainly vengeance, I don't think you can dismiss the idea described as as purely selfish or done without regard to the greater good. You might also view it as society holding up it's end of the social contract, and attempting to ease the mental anguish of the aggrieved parties (people we must assume have lived according to that social contract), by taking out "vengeance" on their behalf, against a person who has put themselves outside of society. Perhaps that *is* serving a greater societal good.

Your position seems to be that rehabilitation is preferable to punishment. That's a fine point to make, and I might even agree with it-- but I think either position can equally lay claim to the word "justice".

[Horse with no Name]

53. The logical fallacy is that it costs MORE to imprison someone for life

than it does to execute them. Yet it doesn't.
The entire death sentence/appeals process is very costly. Even more costly than keeping them on death row for the rest of their lives.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/page.do?id=1101084
>>>>snip
Death Penalty Cost

"Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present system ($137 million per year), the present system after implementation of the reforms ... ($232.7 million per year) ... and a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty ($11.5 million)."

* A 2003 legislative audit in Kansas found that the estimated cost of a death penalty case was 70% more than the cost of a comparable non-death penalty case. Death penalty case costs were counted through to execution (median cost $1.26 million). Non-death penalty case costs were counted through to the end of incarceration (median cost $740,000).
(December 2003 Survey by the Kansas Legislative Post Audit)
* In Tennessee, death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.
(2004 Report from Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research)
* In Maryland death penalty cases cost 3 times more than non-death penalty cases, or $3 million for a single case.
(Urban Institute, The Cost of the Death Penalty in Maryland, March 2008)
* In California the current sytem costs $137 million per year; it would cost $11.5 million for a system without the death penalty.
(California Commission for the Fair Administration of Justice, July 2008)

[BoneDaddy]

55. So eliminate the appeal process for the worst and most aggregious

offenders such as the BTK killer, and other serial destroyers of life.

[Horse with no Name]

57. Bullshit.

Sorry. Justice is best served fairly and it's not.
I'd rather keep 1000 killers in prison than to let one die for a wrongful conviction.

[BoneDaddy]

62. Stop with the straw men

I am talking about proven serial killers, rapists, murderers. Not the poor person of color who, in the past, has been framed, not represented or railroaded into a confession. Those things have happened and were wrong. I am talking about the most horrific of criminals where it is a proven fact that they have done it. It should be reserved for the worst cases.

[Horse with no Name]

66. But laws have no exceptions

and in order to kill off the folks you deem killable--innocent men and women die in the process.
That should never be acceptable--especially to those in the progressive community.

[BoneDaddy]

88. If there is an inkling of innocence

that should never be ignored. Like I said, ad nauseum, capital punishment should be reserved for only the most aggregious crimes where it is clear that the person was responsible.

[armyowalgreens]

97. Technically there is no such thing as being "without doubt".

[BoneDaddy]

102. only if you are a person who has little life experience

you are correct. When you grow up, you realize certain harsh aspects of life. When you are naive and dumb you dont

[armyowalgreens]

105. No, objectivity does not change with age. You might become old and bitter...

Which would create bias. But it doesn't change reality.

[LeftishBrit]

59. The more serious the crime, the more important to consider the evidence carefully

What if you abolish the appeal process for 'egregious crimes', execute people, and then it turns out that they were not guilty?

[armyowalgreens]

65. Exactly. People are completely backwards on this issue.

[BoneDaddy]

89. I am suggesting that

for those most aggregious crimes, it be beyond the shadow of a doubt that the individual is responsible. That the body of evidence is so complete that their is no doubt.

Progressives turn to the horrors of the past to justify protecting the worst people. Of course America and the world have killed innocent people. I am not suggesting that capital punishment be meted out like traffic tickets.

[madmusic]

36. The death penalty may INCREASE the murder rate

Google the "brutalization effect."

[BoneDaddy]

45. Not for the one who is offed

it doesn't

[madmusic]

37. dupe

[Hippo_Tron]

17. Seriously if we're going to execute people stop sugar coating it

Shoot him in the back of the head and be done with it.

[armyowalgreens]

34. Well you seem so eager, I'm assuming you're willing to perform the execution.

right?

[BlooInBloo]

5. Prediction: so-called "true progressives" who favor torture of some foul criminals...

will have no problem with this.

[msanthrope]

8. Lack of empathy knows no party. It's just more disappointing on

this board than Freeperville.

[BoneDaddy]

12. For someone who raped and killed a child

I have no compassion for him, does that make me less or more a "progressive"? I guess that depends upon your definition. I think people who do that have abdicated their humanity and need to be put down with the same indifference as you would an animal that has gone bad. Not with glee but with necessity.

[msanthrope]

25. The problem with categorizing some people as having "abdicated their humanity"

and wishing them to be "put down with the same indifference as you would an animal that has gone bad," is that it removes humanity from you.

Further, that sentiment is difficult to control. Once you accept the basic notion that humanity can be abdicated, and that the punishment is death, you get all sorts of people running about thinking that "x" abdicates humanity, or "y" does. Once those people master the art of killing another human being "not with glee but with necessity" you get horrific results and lots of dead bodies.

I have very little compassion for Broom, but enough of a sense of my basic humanity to know that torture is always wrong.

[EOTE]

30. Very well put.

It's sometimes very hard to explain why I am 100% against the death penalty 100% of the time. The point is, if you accept the death penalty in cases like this where everything is seemingly clear cut, you also have to accept it in cases like that poor Willingham fellow who was murdered by the Texas "justice" system. Even if I could be assured that there was a 0% chance of another innocent being killed by the death penalty (which could never happen), I'm still not sure I could support the DP because it's applied with a racial bias, it's far more expensive than lifetime incarceration and it doesn't act as a deterrent. Add to that the fact that the state doesn't ever have the right to kill one of its citizens, the death penalty is just wrong on its face.

[Zix]

39. Thank you for saying that.

I was going to post something similar.

[msanthrope]

6. Yes. It was torture. For all involved.

Broom, the people trying to kill him, the staff that had to watch, the family of the victim.....even Broom's family. I can't imagine what the victim's family must have gone through--thinking it was 'over' and then, this.

Torture. And yeah, it's still torture, even if we don't like him.

And someday, we might all realize that tinkering with the machinery of death does nothing for any of us....

[oberliner]

9. Seemed to take quite a toll on the mental health of at least one of the nurses involved as well

Apparently one had to leave and could not continue.

[Ms. Toad]

93. Thank you for thinking of Broom's family.

My own family went through this - not to the death chamber, but within 36 hours of it.

We had said our goodbyes - ducking under handcuffed wrists for one last hug, made arrangements to pick up my brother's body and have it cremated and have his ashes spread in a favorite childhood place, written a letter to friends who had supported our family through the nearly 20 years of leading up to the execution, made plans to sit with our faith community at the time of the execution - including the closest family members of both victims who were opposed to execution.

The prison staff, who had come to know and respect my brother during his 20 years as a model prisoner, were posted as guards during the days preceding his execution to ensure that nothing went into his room that would permit him go kill himself and deprive the state of its right to kill him. As we left, we asked them to take good care of him during his last few hours.

And yes, also for the extended family members of one of the victims who wanted nothing more than to have my brother dead - who thought it was over and had were faced with going through everything, including the trial, all over again.

That was the closest to execution, but not the first time we had been through that exercise of wondering if this date was real.

It was torture. Each and every time. For 20 years.

Fortunately, for our family the torture was ended a few years later when a sentencing agreement was reached that would avoid having to put everyone through another trial.

[mitchum]

98. edit: responded to wrong post

[Warpy]

7. I've had multiple IV sticks when my blood pressure has bottomed out

Multiple IV sticks hurt like the dickens but once they stop poking around with the needle, the pain is gone.

I'm afraid the prisoner was being a real drama queen here. While regrettable, it's not torture.

However, I'm opposed to the DP in all cases. I say that as a survivor of murder in my family.

I oppose the DP not because of who they are, but because of who I am.

[Lyric]

16. I disagree. I have had multiple sticks, too.

One nurse violated floor procedure by sticking me ten times (five in each arm) before going to the charge nurse and seeking assistance. I have deep veins that are hard to spot through my skin--they don't "pop" well, and it takes someone with a lot of experience to stick me the first time. Floor procedure here is that no nurse should try more than three times without getting help. Obviously my nurse ignored that rule, and she wound up getting in trouble over it.

I had enormous pain from my blown veins and bad sticks. My arms were swollen--I had black and blue knots the size of a child's fist, and they throbbed and ached like crazy. It was terrible. I became panicky whenever someone approached me with a needle after that.

Another thing I have experience with is potassium chloride--one of the chemicals used in lethal injection. They don't give it until they've given the paralyzing drug, so people don't realize how horrifically painful PC is. When I had it, it was extremely diluted in a super-slow IV drip, and I STILL felt like my entire arm was on fire--like someone had cut me open and was dripping acid onto an open wound. I cannot even imagine the horror of having it injected undiluted, and quickly, without the ability to speak or move so that NOBODY realizes the pain you're feeling.

[Freddie Stubbs]

11. Only if this guy is a bug wuss

[NoPasaran]

13. The guillotine may be messy, but it's pretty much foolproof

[Hippo_Tron]

18. Seriously, if we're going to do it then lets do it for real

Lethal injection doesn't make executions more "civilized". Either we have them or we don't, but don't sguar coat it.

[Lyric]

14. Yes, it's torture.

Mental and emotional torture. The physical part is bad enough, but this not only traumatized the inmate--it traumatized the innocent execution staff.

We need to end the death penalty in America. What he did was horrific, absolutely. Doing something horrific to him in return, even if not AS horrific as what he did, is not justice. It's revenge, and revenge killing is inherently cruel. The purpose of the death penalty is twofold--a deterrent and a practical way of removing dangerous people from society permanently.

Considering that murder rates are higher in states with capital punishment, I'd say the deterrent factor has been proven not to work. As for the second--we have the technology available to accomplish the permanent removal of someone from society WITHOUT killing them. So why do we still kill people? Because the average Joe Sixpack likes the idea of righteous revenge. That alone is evidence enough for me that it's wrong.

Also, I am deeply uncomfortable with the state having the authority to kill its own citizens. Once that authority is established, then it's just a matter of political haggling over what crimes are bad enough to kill someone for. Unfortunately, this requires trust that our government will always stay exactly as it is. I feel that such trust is naive, dangerous, and short-sighted.

Since we cannot guarantee perfect justice and we cannot 100% assure that an innocent person will not be executed, then we have no moral authority to kill as punishment. We can compensate people who are wrongly imprisoned--it doesn't make up for the mistake entirely, but it at least makes an effort. How do we compensate someone who's been wrongly executed? We are not gods. We cannot give back life.

Also, I personally think that the death penalty is a horrific example, and might even be a contributor to the general level of violence in America. Our children are raised to think that the government killing people for "punishment" is morally justified. That is the framework of their childhood in America, even if their parents try to teach them otherwise. If you raise a child in an environment in which violence for the sake of punishment is *sometimes* justified, is it really a surprise when some of those children grow up and start broadening their definitions of "sometimes?" If the default morality of America were that violence is ALWAYS wrong, it might have some gradual background effect on lessening overall violence in our society. This is just a theory, but it's one that I think is worth considering.

JMHO.

[damntexdem]

15. No, except insofar as you might so define capital punishment.

However, a repeat attempt, or an attempt on a different deathrow inmate, arguably would be.

[smoogatz]

19. It's appalling, but not nearly as bad

as being injected with lethal poison. This kind of thing is why most states banned hanging, after they tried to make a science of it (too many prisoners strangled instead of having their necks broken, or else their heads popped off because the drop was too long--both difficult for the spectators, as you can imagine), and the electric chair, ditto--instead of quickly electrocuting the condemned, it sometimes fried them in extremely unattractive ways. A bullet in the back of the head would be infinitely more humane in most cases than any of the cockamamie "scientifically humane" execution methods we've concocted so far. Or a single pellet of cyanide, washed down with a nice pinot noir, maybe.

That said, I'm against the death penalty in all but the most extreme cases, and I think our entire prison system pretty much constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. Non-violent offenders should almost never be sent to prison, IMO.

[anigbrowl]

21. No, even though I'm against the death penalty

It would be torture if they planned to make him suffer in that way. It was certainly negligent, as it was something that could have been avoided with better planning, eg a medical evaluation ahead of time. And it's an example of why the death penalty is frequently not the neat clean solution to criminal justice problems that its proponents claim it to be.

On the other hand, I've had worse things happen in hospital. Man up, for fuck's sake; I feel a lot sorrier for the nurse than I do for Broom.

[proteus_lives]

23. No, ask Broom about what he did to that little girl.

That's torture.

Just hang him.

[gordianot]

24. Just one question when does he go back if ever?

If he were to go to the general population his remaining life would be a living hell and might ask for a second chance with the executioner. What awaits a child molester killer in general population would make this look mild.

[TheKentuckian]

26. I don't get how the crimes of a person change the fact of them being tortured or not

Anytime there is a situation people start talking about victims when the victim is immaterial to if a person is being put through cruel and unusual punishment or torture.

A similar thought would be why we allow prosecutors to hammer away at what a victim went through when the point of the proceeding is to determine culpability not the heinousness of a crime. This emotional tactic is wrongly used to bring out the witch hunt factor rather than to determine who it was that perpetrated the crime. What the victim went through is only relevant for sentencing AFTER we have determined guilt.

The question was is this torture not if you believe some people deserve torture, which is a lust for revenge and a wholly seperate issue.

[Desertrose]

29. I agree...torture is torture.....

believing some one (ever) "deserves" torture is a different discussion entirely.You said it exactly when you said it is a lust for revenge.

[Zix]

40. +1

[WonderGrunion]

27. Torture - no. Cruel and Unusual punishment - yes.

I hate using the outrage word du jour just to make a political point. No one was trying to gain information from Broom, no one was trying to force a false confession out of him. No one was trying to brainwash him. No one was hurting him for sick pleasure. Torture could be used under any one of those circumstances, not this.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. Nah. Obviously The Piece Of Shit's Claims Of Pain Are Highly Exaggerated.

A huge annoyance with some levels of pain here and there, sure. But that piece of shit rapist, murdering, pedophile is lucky as hell to even live another day. Any pain he feels on any given day for any given reason; is deserved. Fuck him.

[armyowalgreens]

33. "piece of shit rapist, murdering, pedophile"- A calm, objective well thought out response.

:sarcasm:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. Ummmmm, That's Exactly What He Is (And Soon Enough Hopefuly 'Was').

So your response is a bit silly.

[armyowalgreens]

50. You argue that he is a piece of shit and therefore his claims of pain are exaggerated.

It's a logical fallacy perpetuated by your hatred. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. Actually I Said No Such Thing. Talk About Logical Fallacy.

You failed miserably there.

[armyowalgreens]

80. Oh my mistake. Why, then, do you think his claims are exaggerated?

[PVnRT]

31. Not torture, but they should've stopped after they couldn't find a vein in 30 minutes

Would it really have been that hard to say, "OK, this isn't working, let's delay the execution for a week"?

Of course, the bloodthirsty at DU don't care. They probably want him tortured to death.

[armyowalgreens]

32. Yes, it is. If not physically, most definitely mentally.

[MindPilot]

38. Okay what would happen if they were trying to SAVE his life?

What would be the procedure if this same guy needed IV drugs NOW?

I'm totally opposed to the death penalty for a number of reasons, but if it is going to be done, hasn't medical science advanced to the point where it doesn't have to be brutal?

[Jennicut]

41. No, I stick myself with a needle on a daily basis and yes, it hurts sometimes.

He would be in real trouble if he was a diabetic.

It was more incompetence.

But as far as the death penalty goes, I am torn. It is for revenge only. It is not a deterrent for crime. Will it make you feel better if someone raped and murdered your daughter that this person was dead? Will it give you closure, make you feel some kind of justice happened? These are the questions I ask myself all the time about the death penalty, hence why I am torn about it.

[aikoaiko]

42. Not torture.

Not a fun experience,but not torture.

[Odin2005]

43. Sorry, I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.

[armyowalgreens]

47. You didn't answer the question.

[L0oniX]

48. They should have called in the CIA and had them do it.

[DemoTex]

52. The Marquis de Lafayette spoke for me in 1830:

The Marquis de Lafayette, speaking to the French Chamber of Deputies in 1830, years after witnessing the excesses of the French Revolution, said, “I shall ask for the abolition of the punishment of death until I have the infallibility of human judgment demonstrated to me.”

For you blood thirsty revenge-seekers, the key words of the Marquis' speech are: the infallibility of human judgment; a concept which might - when given the context - be the biggest oxymoron ever.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Yes and the excuses made about how bad of a man this guy is

and he is... justifying it, are not that different from... the excuses given by the right as to why we should keep waterboarding them "bad actors."

That in the mirror is the American way of revenge.

[MrScorpio]

60. All Death Penalty is Torture. nt

[pitohui]

63. i think torture requires intent altho from the vic's point of view...yikes

in a technical sense i don't think it's torture, i think it's what we call a "fuck up" or a "goat rodeo"

i must admit that if i were to be executed i do not understand the logic or "kindness" of lethal injection, what's wrong w. the firing squad? if i am to be wrongly executed (it would have to be wrongly in my case, as i have raped/killed no one) then i would like it to be quick and also something that my killers would have to live with...not something sterile that a person could kid themselves about what they were doing unless they TRULY fucked up a la this particular case -- how many other prisoners have these nurses killed and never batted an eye because they were being paid to kill and it went off OK?

[The Midway Rebel]

67. Torture.

[varelse]

74. wouldn't a guillotine be more humane?

and a hell of a lot quicker, too.

[1]

77. a large mousetrap...

put the last meal on the trigger mechanism. keep the condemned hungry for a few days. release the condemned into a cell with the trap...

*SNAP!*

[armyowalgreens]

81. Disgusting.

[1]

82. but true, grasshopper...

i had to "take care of" several mice recently that moved into my cabin at this time of the year. its an annual thing, a country thing. starts to get cold outside. warm in here. mice get cold...

anyhoo, a trap is the most humane way to take care of the situation. painless. quick.

*SNAP!*

[armyowalgreens]

83. Truly disgusting.

[1]

84. i like you. a man of few words. no actual thoughts, but few words...

[armyowalgreens]

85. I have many thoughts. It's simply not worth the effort here...

Sometimes I put up a good fight for this topic.

Sometimes I realize, before hand, that whatever I say is never actually going to make it past ones own bias.

You are probably never going to learn. So all I can do is label your statements for what they truly are; disgusting.

[1]

86. cool. god loves the quitters too. even the inarticulate quitters. peace, my brother...

[armyowalgreens]

87. There is no God. You do not want peace.

I'm not your brother.

[1]

90. yes grasshopper, there is a god. i do want peace and i am your brother...

you have so much to learn.

stop holding so many drunken parties at your school. open some of those books you pay so much for. talk to a few sober people instead.

you posted that your generation will soon be in charge and that the old ways of doing things will soon change for the better. if your drunken-dave-letterman-i'm-in-school-but-i'd-rather-party-WHOOT! efforts are the sign of the new future? i'm not holding out too much hope.

but again, there is still time for you. i hope.

peace, my brother...

[armyowalgreens]

96. I may have my issues. But I know that I am right on this...

My partying, my own personal problems...Those have no bearing on the strength of my argument on this subject. They really don't.

And the fact that you had to resort to such miserable drivel in order to make yourself feel better shows just how much I was right in the first place. You will probably never learn. It's not worth wasting my words on someone that is so willfully ignorant.

Believe me, I am not your brother. I do not want to be your brother. I would rather stand alone against a million people like yourself. I'm not going to give in to primitive desires simply because I feel the need to be part of a brotherhood. It's not going to happen.

[rockymountaindem]

99. That was extremely crass and below the belt n/t

[varelse]

94. You have an odd sense of humor

:(

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

92. Not just no... HELL NO

Good for those nurses.
I'm sure they con find veins just fine... when they feel like it.

[mitchum]

100. I raped and killed a teenager, but "I have never used heroin or any intravenous drugs"

Well, that changes everything

[Cid_B]

104. She must have hit a muscle because the pain made me scream out loud," Broom said.

What a baby...

[Sheepshank]

110. Vengeance and justice are mutually exclusive.

really? Since when is the entire legal field in the business of doing anything but laying out rules and obtaining vengeance of those that have hurt others by breaking the rules? We can make it nicey nice and call it legal justice, but the purpose is the same...it's for exacting something painful from a perpetrator. I can't for the life of me turn the idea of vengeance into a bad thing for every single solitary situation that occurs.