45 pound electric bicycle with over 10 hp.. E-bikes are about to arrive in a big way..

[Fumesucker]

Designed and made in the USA. :)

This is a hand made E-bike done by a master mechanic and machinist with the very latest technology. Amazing performance combined with anvil-like reliability. About a 45 mph top end on this bike but the guy has it geared for maximum acceleration which makes it somewhat slower than it could ultimately be, probably 60 mph or a bit faster.

I've been playing around myself with E-bikes and watching/learning as some truly cool units are made on the premier site dedicated to E-bikes. I thought I would share the latest and hottest setup, the guy sold this bike very soon after it was completed for $5,000 cash.



A walk around video of the bike narrated by the builder.

http://www.youtube.com/v/N2sSgJ3QUDQ

A video of the bike in action.

www.youtube.com/v/DtcTYmI5tfA

And here is the thread all about the bike for those who might like to read the technical details..

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=9534

Edited to add: The designer/builder calculated his net profit on the bike as coming to $65/hour..

Not too shabby for a guy who is working in his home workshop.

[Ms. Toad]

1. The 32 mph I hit going downhill is fast enough for me, n/t

[Fumesucker]

3. This machine is like a Lamborghini..

Not for everyone by any means, but it is a demonstration of what the technology can do.

What if you had a bike that would go 32mph *up* the hills as well as down?

[The River]

5. Imagine The Road Rash

you'd get from a spill doing 60? Especially on a chip and seal road surface.
I once hit 46 going down hill and it still makes me cringe to think about it.

[Fumesucker]

6. I've come off at 70 plus on a motorycle before.

Protective gear saved my butt..

Sportbikes today will easily go 160, even a 600 will go that fast.

[The River]

7. Lucky You

After a head on with a Mack Truck in '72 I swapped the
leftover motorcycle parts for a 10 speed.
Bicycles are fast enough for me now.

[Fumesucker]

8. I haven't been on a motorcycle in a while now..

Reflexes are a bit too slow now for that kind of power and I enjoy it a bit too much.

If you survived a head on with a Mack truck you're pretty lucky too.

[The River]

10. I Really Was

It made me see the need for speed and too much power
would get me killed so I got rid of the temptation.
Now, at 60, doing 25 on a bicycle is thrill enough!

[Ms. Toad]

35. I use the brakes before I get that fast . . .

Road rash actually heals relatively quickly compared to the rest of the damage that could be done after hitting that loose gravel I didn't see coming at 60 mph. :scared:

[Ian David]

146. I once tried to take a Honda Kick 'n' Go down the tallest hill in my neighborhood.

At high speed they sort of start to resonate side-to-side.

[frog92969]

2. I'd never do 60mph on a PKRipper

I've had one for decades,
and it gets right flighty near 40.

[Fumesucker]

4. Oversized front forks changes the steering geometry..

Gives it more rake which slows down the steering and makes it less twitchy.

Plus it is a longer than standard frame which also slows down the steering..

It is geared for 52mph top end right now with somewhat less acceleration.

[frog92969]

9. The bike in your picture is no different than mine

except for the electronics.
XL frame, Landing Gear (or similar) forks.

This isn't a ride that a "normal" person would want to take.

If alot of people take that thing to 60, alot of people are gonna die.
Just a few pebbles or a painted line is all it takes.
I'd compare it to doing 130 or so on a motorcycle.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the hell out of this bike and would
ride it in a heartbeat.

[Fumesucker]

11. Eh, I'm just going by what the builder said..

He knows a lot more about it than I do, I just finished reading the complete thread and he geared it for 52 mph because the buyer wanted it to be a bit faster. The bike also has 110 psi unicycle tires on it because they are designed for full adult bodyweight on a single tire.

And who wants to be "normal" anyway?

We have some severe hills in my area and I can get to 40 without much trouble on my semi recumbent bicycle although I can't pedal that fast even in high gear.

[frog92969]

12. Somebody stole my rec!

What's wrong with people?

I'll watch the videos tommorrow,
I have to get up in a few hours.

I've got some project bikes I've been meaning to start on,
so this is something I'm very interested in.
Thanks for posting it.

[Fumesucker]

18. Yeah, I noticed that..

I suspect it might be personal, or they might work for an oil company.

Quien sabe?

[Occulus]

14. Commercial versions would doubtless be slower.

I see this as more of a "proof of concept". With a 35MPH top speed, the batteries would last longer and it would be just about perfect for city and rural dwellers alike.

I fully expect to see this or something like it come out as an alternative to a car, and with advances in solar power finally happening again I can also see that being incorporated into the construction to help keep the batteries alive.

This little thing is full of win as a commercial product if it's marketed correctly.

[Fumesucker]

17. Federal law limits you to one horsepower which is right at 750 watts..

Give you about a 30 mph average speed with a 200 lb rider..

Then there is the Lorax Hauler.

http://loraxmotors.com/products/the-hauler

[ddeclue]

93. WHAT Federal law?

[Fumesucker]

99. This one..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Federal_Laws_and_Regulation

The U.S. NHTSA Code of Motor Vehicle Safety simply defines low-speed electric bicycles as consumer products and not Motor Vehicles for safety standards<28>. In doing so they vest authority over commercial safety standards to the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

The Consumer Product Safety Commission(CPSC) stipulates that commercially manufactured low-speed electric bicycles, or tricycles, must have fully operable pedals, an electric motor not exceeding 750W of power and a top motor-powered speed not in excess of 20 miles per hour (32 km/h).<29> An electric bike remaining within these specifications will be regarded simply as a bicycle for purposes of safety standards. This supersedes any state law that is more stringent, but only regarding safety equipment required on electric bicycles and the standard of manufacture they must meet.<30>. The legislation enacting this amendment to the CPSC is also known as HR 727<31>.

[ddeclue]

107. 1) These are regulations, not laws. 2) Big deal, if you want a bigger motor it has to be certified

by NHTSA instead of CPSC - that's all it really means.

[Fumesucker]

111. If the motor is over 750 watts it becomes a motor vehicle.

Subject to a great many more restrictions as well as licensing, taxation, etc..

And the line between regulations and laws is a remarkably fine one.

The legislation enacting this amendment to the CPSC is also known as HR 727

[ddeclue]

112. So it becomes a motor vehicle - big deal.

it's not illegal to put a 10 HP motor on it, you just have to get a license tag and insurance and pass any safety inspection required by your state.

[Fumesucker]

114. Yes it is a big deal..

Mandatory insurance for one thing.

[ddeclue]

132. Not that big a deal. I think you should have to have insurance to ride bikes.

They are far more dangerous to their users than automobiles.

[taterguy]

134. Do you have a stat to back the claim that bikes are more dangerous than automobiles?

I honestly don't know.

On the one hand you have less protection.

On the other hand you're almost always traveling at much lower speeds, and there's nothing flammable on a bike to incinerate you.

Besides, insurance requirements are to protect other people that you damage with your vehicle. It's theoretically possible to damage someone else with a bicycle but you have to try really hard.

[ddeclue]

135. Automobiles hardly ever burst into flame.

Bicyclists are on the other hand extremely vulnerable to morons in cars. That's why I've all but stopped riding my own bike - I'm tired of being run off the road by crazy drivers.

[Fumesucker]

142. But which is *inherently* more dangerous..

The bicycle or the car?

I suspect it is the car.

[ddeclue]

168. To the operator: a bicycle.

Cars are more dangerous to the people and things around them than to the operators.

It's simple physics: your 40lb bike vs. my 5,000 lb car.

:crazy:

[taterguy]

156. In other words, you have no idea how much damage cyclists cause

That's why people get insurance.

Just in case they incur a debt that they can't pay.

That's why they don't have insurance for bicycles: Because the costs administering such a program would exceed any potential claims made.

Go ahead. Prove me wrong with statistics.

I'm waiting.

ps: I've never been run off the road by a driver. But since that's just an anecdotal story it proves nothing and shouldn't be the basis for implementing public policy.

pps: I've ridden thousands of miles in the heart of NASCAR country.

[ddeclue]

167. I am NOT talking about the damage cyclists cause, just the risk cyclists take mingling with traffic.

And if you haven't been run off the road yet, move to Florida.

[taterguy]

170. Once again, please justify your assertion with actual data

As far as I know, there's no such thing as insurance for cyclists.

So you want to create an entire new industry, or division of an existing industry.

So what statistics would you use to justify it?

And if there was insurance for cyclists how would the rates be determined?

Or just keep blowing smoke out of / up your ass.

[ddeclue]

171. You are obviously an idiot if you think that bicycling is safer than driving around in a car.

I don't need "statistics" to establish what the laws of physics make all too obvious.

Go play somewhere else. Run along now.

[taterguy]

172. No one's arguing about safety but whether or not cyclist insurance should be a requirement

That was your original claim.

I asked you to justify it with something other than your opinion.

Obviously you can't.

Why am I not surprised?

Here's a really basic law of "physics":

Force = mass x velocity (or something like that)

Which vehicle is likely to cause more damage?

[ddeclue]

173. You are arguing past my point not rebutting it.

I could give a crap what damage a bicycle can cause to others. You and I both know they really can't do much.

I am discussing the OPERATOR of the bicycle and the risk the OPERATOR is at by being on that bicycle in traffic with automobiles. It is an extraordinary risk and therefore the OPERATOR should have insurance to protect THEMSELVES in the event of injury to THEMSELVES.

You know you can't argue with that so you are attempting to redirect the argument to a specious point that nobody cares about.

Oh and by the way it's actually F=d(mv)/dt = m(dv/dt)+v(dm/dt). We tend to ignore the v(dm/dt) portion because mass changes are rarely significant to matter outside of rocket science and focus on the remaining portion m(dv/dt) where dv/dt is acceleration or "a" ending up as F=ma.

When you exchange momentum with a 5000 automobile, if momentum is more or less conserved you are the one who is going to experience unacceptable acceleration, NOT the automobile. That's why YOU need insurance because who knows whether that motorist has any coverage.

That's your lesson in physics for today.


Doug D.
Bachelor of Aerospace Engineering,
Georgia Tech.

[taterguy]

174. Sigh

Your original argument was that bicycles should have insurance.

Now your justification is that the insurance is needed to cover medical bills incurred by people riding bikes.

Why not just require everyone to have health insurance?

We all do things where we could hurt ourselves.

The riskiest thing I've ever done is hike the Grand Canyon.

I didn't have to take out an insurance policy on my boots to do that.

In your spare time please explain how a bicycle insurance program would work.

Would it be based on the model of the bike? Do you think they even keep stats about which models are more likely to be involved in accidents?

Would it be based on the rider? How would you determine the risk factors? Obviously someone who spends a lot of time on the road would be more exposed to traffic. But they'd also be more experienced in dealing with traffic. And how would you know what their habits were?

[tkmorris]

159. Automobile insurance (mandatory) isn't to protect the driver

It's to protect:

1) The institution that loaned the money used to purchase the vehicle, and

2) Others that may be injured and/or suffer property damage as a result of any accident the driver has.

[ddeclue]

169. Actually it also covers your own injuries in the event you are hit by an uninsured motorist

but your medical insurance is still primary.

[berni_mccoy]

92. Agreed. 60 mph on a bicycle is downright dangerous.

[Sanctified]

13. But how much did it cost to build?

I looked at some of the electric bikes out there and the ones that are light enough to peddle in the event you run out of juice are ridiculous in price like $7k-14k.

[Fumesucker]

16. He sold it for $5,000 and made $65/hr for his design/construction time..

This is an extreme machine with a range of about fifteen miles or so if ridden reasonably, it's really more of a technology demonstrator than anything else.

You could take a mid line mountain bike from Craiglist for $400 or so and electrify it for around another $700-$1500 and have a decent machine for under $2000 that would still pedal easily and give you a pedal assisted range in the twenty to thirty mile range that would still be light enough to pedal without electric assist.

[Joe the Liberal]

15. There was a guy at our previous place who rode one of those all the time....

except his wasn't nearly as nice as that one. I sure wouldn't mind having one but at that price I think I'd just go ahead and buy a car instead.

[Fumesucker]

20. This is a Ferrari of electric bicycles..

You can put together a very nice E-bike for a fraction of what this guy sold the bike for.

[whistler162]

33. More like the Yugo on a good day.....

a moped is a moped.

[Fumesucker]

53. A Yugo was anything but an adrenaline rush..

I guarantee this thing will get your heart pounding.. If you have the guts to even get on it.

[armyowalgreens]

19. I've eaten asphalt at 30 mph. I don't want to find out what it feels like at 60 mph.

But It would be fun to cruise around in as long as I keep it at reasonable speeds.

[Fumesucker]

21. The old hot rodder's credo goes like this:

Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?

A bike that will go half as fast would only cost about one fourth to one third as much.

[armyowalgreens]

22. I'd like to see that guy make a 45 mph road bike. I'd buy one...

I've gotten close to 40 mph going down hill while sprinting as fast as I possibly could. It seemed stable enough.

But I'd probably still wear protective gear similar to motorcycle gear. Helmet, jacket, pants etc...

[Fumesucker]

24. He's making custom kits to add on to existing bikes now..

45 mph would take about 1700 watts on the level, figure 200 watts from the rider and that leaves 1500 for the motor to provide.

http://www.mne.psu.edu/lamancusa/ProdDiss/Bicycle/BIKEcalc1.HTM

A single motor like the dual ones he has on that bike would do 1500 watts and barely get warm.

Batteries would be your biggest cost.

At 48v 1500 watts is going to be about 35 amps if you figure in motor efficiency of less than 100%.. That's quite doable..

[eridani]

23. Wondering why the video didn't show him slowing down, speeding up and stopping

I'd like to know more about the brakes' stopping power (particularly when wet), charge time for the battery, performance on hills, etc. I wouldn't consider getting anything that didn't have at least a fifty mile range in hilly territory, and 30 mph is plenty fast enough for me.

[Fumesucker]

25. The video was shot on a tripod, he sold the bike shortly after he got it made..

That bike has high performance and short range, basically the slower you go the more range you have on a given set of batteries.

Charge time varies with the charger and battery type, the more gently you charge your cells generally the longer they will last. It could be as short as fifteen minutes with cells that are designed for quick charging but those won't have the best range for a given weight. Two hours would probably be a good average..

The brakes are more than likely strong enough to flip you over the front wheel, BMX and mountain bike brakes are designed to work under severe conditions such as mud, steep downhills and the like.

[leveymg]

26. Probably more important than top speed - what's the range?

[Fumesucker]

28. This is a Ferrari of electric bicycles..

Short range, very high performance..

Abut fifteen miles at a 20 mph average for this particular bike.

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. to be useful to me I would need 20 miles of range @ 20mph.

[Viking12]

66. Then Schwinn has something for you!

Only about 15mph on average but does have a 20 mile range (YMMV: speeds and mileage vary according rider weight and terrain).

http://www.schwinnbike.com/usa/eng/Products/Electric/All/

[Selatius]

27. In my parents' home country of Viet Nam, everybody who lives in the city has at least one bike.

They are cheaper than owning a car, especially since the government levies a luxury tax on all cars. This thing would revolutionize inner-city travel for these folks if it took off in a major way. Imagine peddling to work, without the peddling.

[Fumesucker]

29. I understand that E-bikes are becoming very popular in Asia..

But most countries have severe restrictions on E-bikes for a variety of reasons. In Japan for instance, legal E-bikes are restricted to 200 watts I believe, this thing is 10,000 watts.

This bike is more of a technology demonstration than anything else, sort of like some of the more extreme concept cars at a car show.

T

[Selatius]

32. Like the Tesla Roadster. Yeah, these things are "proof of concept" writ large.

But the important thing about these things is that it can be done. The only thing is getting the political will and the capital behind these things, and this guy makes these things in his garage, probably just with elbow grease, a little mechanical/electrical know-how, and autoCAD on a computer.

[Terry in Austin]

69. 10 KW!

Yikes! That's -- what? -- like 13-14 horsepower on that light little frame. Even the Harley Bobber conversion downthread was only 8 hp. Extreme concept machine, truly.

[Fumesucker]

73. There are a lot of people who think anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

I know several like that, my brother is that way.

Gross excess is just enough for him. :)

[ngant17]

30. electric mopeds, bikes and scooters are available

his novelty is that it is based on bicycle frame and components,and most all of that is exotic add-ons from the racing end.

I guess an ordinary electric bike conversion would not do for him.

Electric bikes can be purchased from $300 and up. A lot of them have pedal-assist, top speed is usually limited to 25-28 mph in the U.S. in order to be classified as a “moped”.

If you want to go for more pricey models, the $3000 Zapino electric scooter by ZAP has a maximum speed of 40 mph, and its range is approx. 30 miles per charge.

The Vectrix is a 100% electric motorcycle, goes 62 mph, good for range of 68 miles, and it accelerates faster than most cars at the stoplight.
It's in the +$5000 price range.

[leveymg]

31. Vectrix is reportedly going Ch. 11

A victim of the credit crunch and being too far ahead of the commercial curve. If there was ever a company that deserved the money wasted feeding the Wall Street "too big to fail" dinosaurs.

Electric Scooter Maker Vectrix Shutting Down: Never Turned a Profit
By Josie Garthwaite 3 CommentsTweet This (0) Posted July 17th, 2009 at 10:03 am in Automotive, StartupsIn some industries, bankruptcies, shutdowns and pullouts have become so commonplace that we’ve had to start deathwatch lists just to keep track (see: coal, ethanol). Not so in the electric scooter sector, which has only begun to rev up at the starting line. But this week, startup Vectrix, one of the earliest movers in a market that has begun to attract big-name players (Honda, Piaggio), appears headed for bankruptcy.


What happened? AutoblogGreen has posted a Vectrix press release (dated July 14) downloaded from the startup’s site before it shut down, and it paints the whole gloomy picture. Noting “challenging market conditions for some time as a result of the credit crunch and lack of consumer spending on bigger ticket retail purchases,” Vectrix says it has seen “very disappointing” sales and been unable to secure financing over the last several months.

According to the Providence Journal, which broke the story, Rhode Island-based Vectrix has sold only 2,000 of the $11,000, Poland-made Maxi scooters, although it had plans to market “two lower-end models costing as little as $5,100.” Vectrix, which the Journal says never turned a profit, had some 200 workers and 225 dealerships at its peak.

At this point, the startup has laid off most of its team (at least 20), as it pursues “strategic options including the sale of the Company.” If that doesn’t pan out within 30 days, Plan B is for Vectrix (”a victim,” as Edmunds Green Car Advisor puts it, “of the ‘good idea a little too soon’ syndrome”) to file for bankruptcy.

Vectrix, having ventured into the business of electric two-wheel scooters 13 years ago, will leave behind it (if it does go kaput) a much fatter field of electric vehicles designed as alternatives to the standard four-wheeled car than when it started — including VentureOne from Venture Vehicles, Aptera’s Typ-1, Brammo’s Enertia and Mission Motors’ planned Mission One. Here’s hoping we don’t have to start another deathwatch.

[IDemo]

34. More my speed->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8LlWr6EoQk&feature=related

[BrotherLove]

37. Are there any that are more useful....

Something you could take to the store and put groceries in? A 3 wheeler bike with a roof to protect from the elements? I’d think that would be where the money is since you could replace a car with it. I don't think many could afford a $5000 bike right now.

[Fumesucker]

43. This is a technology demonstration..

Yes, there are other bikes out there, all the way from the Currie iZip at $399..

http://www.nycewheels.com/uscusinship.html



To the Lorax Hauler at $2499.

http://loraxmotors.com/products/the-hauler

[PVnRT]

38. Why not just slap a battery on a moped?

[Fumesucker]

41. People are doing that too...

But they are heavy and slow, the Trabant of E-bikes.

This is light and fast, a Ferrari of E-bikes.

[asdjrocky]

39. Cool, a new toy for rich people.

[Fumesucker]

45. The difference between an original VW bug and a Ferrari is one of degree, not of kind.

The guy that built this is by no means rich, it is a demonstration of the art of the possible.

I've already posted far less expensive E-bikes on the thread, all the way down to $399..

[dysfunctional press]

40. $5000? not for me.

if i'm spending that much- i'm getting a car.

[Fumesucker]

49. It's amazing how many people can miss a fairly obvious point..

If the technology exists to build something like this then a slower, cheaper version is well within reach.

And indeed, there are E-bikes all the way down to $399..

http://www.nycewheels.com/uscusinship.html

[Dora]

52. Exactly. Remember how expensive DVD players were 10 years ago?

I agree, there is a future for the electric bike.

[dysfunctional press]

57. cheaper ones already ARE available.

spending $5000 on one is just plain stupid.

THAT'S the "fairly obvious point" that the op seems to be missing.

[Fumesucker]

62. You can easily spend far more than $5000 on a bicycle with no motor at all..

Stupidity, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Why does someone pay over a million dollars for a Stradivarius when you can get a fiddle for $100 at the pawn shop?

[Ferret Annica]

67. Oh I get the point,

The local bicycle paths have had invasions of gasoline powered skateboards and other powered trash like this thing.

If this happens, the war between them and real bicyclists will begin anew until they too are banned.

In fact, I am going to contact my city councilor to see if they can consider banning them before they cheapen up.

These things are junk.

[Fumesucker]

77. Really..

Anything *I* don't like is junk..

GET OFF MY GRASS!1!!

[Ferret Annica]

84. Grass? Like cool man. Smokable or walk onable?

Damn right, anything that threatens the integrity of a spot free to travel without being pushed around and intimidated by powered vehicles are a threat.

These are J-U-N-K, and we will make sure they are banned from human powered bike paths locally.

[Fumesucker]

89. Luddites don't impress me..

If they are so much J-U-N-K then why are they wildly popular all through Asia and much of Europe?

And in the great majority of America there isn't anywhere to ride that you aren't already being pushed around by powered vehicles, there is exactly one bike path in my area and it's basically useless for commuting or actually going anywhere, it's strictly for recreation.

[eridani]

166. I always appreciated the Nie Bromfietsen signs on varous paths in the Netherlands

Paths where motorbikes were allowed were much wider.

[Ferret Annica]

86. Get rid of the grass and bring back wildlands ;-)

Damn right, anything that threatens the integrity of a spot free to travel without being pushed around and intimidated by powered vehicles are a threat.

These are J-U-N-K, and we will make sure they are banned from human powered bike paths locally.

[Ghost Dog]

42. Improve brakes; Use electric motor braking to recharge batteries;

Road suspension, Panniers...

People should live where they can go to work by electric bike or trike, for an eco-city future.

[Fumesucker]

46. The brakes are already enough to flip you over the front wheel..

This thing was designed and built as a demonstration of what is possible, not as an example of a "practical" bike for everyday use.

And bikes don't have enough weight to make regenerative braking very useful and it adds considerably to the complexity of the machine.

[Romulox]

54. Yeah...that's not a good thing. A rear brake would be safety improvement #1 for me, too. nt

[Fumesucker]

59. It has a rear brake..

On high performance two wheelers a rear brake is mostly just along for the ride anyway, 80% or more of your stopping power is on the front thanks to weight transfer under braking.

My six year old grandson can slide the rear wheel of his little bicycle for about ten yards already.. I can almost see the air in the back tire right now. :)

[Romulox]

63. Sliding means you are not in control. Again, NOT a good thing.

And if it has a rear brake, it must be internally mounted in the rear hub. I see no rear disc. :shrug:

"On high performance two wheelers a rear brake is mostly just along for the ride anyway, 80% or more of your stopping power is on the front thanks to weight transfer under braking."

How many times do I have to type: NOT a good thing? A 45 lbs bike going 60 mph with only a front brake means that ANY "oh shit" maneuver will send you over the bars or sliding sideways. That 20% is extremely significant in an emergency, which is why every serious road bike features two brakes and two levers, despite the weight penalty.

[Fumesucker]

70. It's on the left, hidden behind the large sprocket on the right side of the bike..

And sport bikes have been able to do "brakies" for decades, I had an RD350 in 1978 that would stand on the front wheel.

If all you've ridden is a cruiser you really wouldn't understand the crotch rocket mentality.

You think someone capable of designing and building a machine that runs like this doesn't understand the physics behind it?

[Romulox]

44. That bike was not properly engineered to go 60 MPH. It's a deathtrap in its current configuration.

A BMX bike, with a fixed (alu, I bet!) fork, going 60 mph? And with a single cable actuated (?) disc brake to slow you down?

My guess is that the fellow may sell a couple before the inevitable lawsuit shuts him down. I sincerely hope he is selling these things under an LLC or similar. If not, he is likely jeopardizing his home and assets with this foolishness.

[Fumesucker]

47. ROFL.. You find the dark cloud to every silver lining..

As predictable as gravity..

Sport bikes today are "deathtraps", a 600 will go 160 mph the literbikes are close to 190 now, I don't see Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda et al being sued into oblivion.

[Romulox]

51. I gave your friend good advice. Take it to heart.

"As predictable as gravity..."

As predictable as a serious injury or death on that claptrap machine in the OP. My advice is good, even if your friend chooses to proceed in the face of completely foreseeable harm.

And Suzuki et al haven't been "sued into oblivion," but they all have most definitely been sued for product liability. :hi:

[Fumesucker]

56. He isn't my friend..

Never met him.

And has been in small business for a long time building and selling things that could get him sued.

Like video camera carrying electric radio controlled helicopters, which is where he got the technology for this bike.

[Stevenmarc]

48. I love my E-bike, but in NYC traffic this is a bit of an overkill and not street legal

[Fumesucker]

50. A technology demonstration..

No, anything over 750 watts is illegal, this thing is 10,000 watts.

Demonstrating the art of the possible is what this is all about.

[Stevenmarc]

68. Thanks, I get that

pushing technological limits is a good thing. As an E-bike owner I'm more interested in technological developments that can get them into more peoples hands because I get a lot of questions as I ride mine but not a lot of people willing to part with a couple grand for one.

[Hepburn]

55. My e-trike gets about 15 mph....

...and that is fast enough for me. :hi:

[Fumesucker]

58. Technology has a way of trickling down..

It's developed with the high performance machines to go fast, ends up in the low performance machines to make them go further and more reliably..

:hi: back at 'ya.

[Hepburn]

91. I have really enjoyed the e-trike....

...my guy pal who has been building electric bikes since he was in High School in the 1950s has customized my trike and keeps it running perfectly. The huge basket between the two rear wheels is just the right size for my Scottie.

I have noticed lately that there are more and more e-vehicles around. My trike is one of the four e-trikes in the development where I live and there is now an e-scooter as well.

I sent a link to this OP to my guy pal and I am sure he will be interested. He just built another e-bicycle and it is a beauty. But...he likes speed ~~ so this will def be of interest.

So glad this OP was posted and that it made the Greatest Page! :hi:

[Fumesucker]

97. Why thank you..

Although the joy over my OP wasn't universal I fear. :shrug:

:hi: back at ya.

[TexasObserver]

60. The MOPED makes a come back!

A friend had one in the early 1960s. Back then you could ride them at age 12, I think it was.

I got a Cushman Eagle when I was 12 or 13. It was a motor scooter. No helmet. No safety gear of any kind. Basically, a lawn mower engine, a seat, some handle bars, a brake, and two wheels.

[Juche]

61. You can buy a bike motor for a fraction of that though

http://kingsmotorbikes.com/

http://www.bikemotor.com/

A motor is only $130 or so if you built it yourself from the parts. A fashioned motor is still only $300-700.


5k is pretty steep for an electric bike. You can get a used motorcycle for that kind of money.

[Fumesucker]

64. You can buy a fiddle at the pawn shop for $100..

Why do people spend over a million for a Stradivarius? :shrug:

[Juche]

78. If you want it to go mainstream, it has to be cost competitive

That is the thing. As a middle class consumer, I am going to spend $300-500 on a premade kit or $140 on a kit I can build myself over a $5000 kit put onto a BMX bike.

Hopefully costs will go down by a factor of 10 if these bikes catch on. However, there really is no incentive for people to buy an electric BMX bike that goes 60mph for $5000 unless it is for novelty.

If you want transport you will probably spend $100-500 on a gas motor.

[Fumesucker]

81. Like I said..

You can buy a fiddle for $100..

And the cheap kits aren't very reliable or powerful, sealed lead acid batteries (all of the cheap kits use them) don't last long either and are very heavy for the power they put out.

I suspect that a lot of the really cheap E-bikes and kits are going to hurt more than help, people will get disgusted with them and bad mouth the entire class of vehicles when they almost inevitably have a bad experience.

Weight is a killer on a bicycle and where you put the weight makes a big difference in how the bike handles, handling is critical on two wheels.

[Ferret Annica]

65. I don't want these damn things on the bike path

Whenever we get one of this sort of vehicles, the human powered only routes get these too fast and intimidating things invading the world class system of dedicated bicycle paths.

I don't even want the infirmed to use them on my paths if they go above a human powered speed.

I do not like these things. I prefer REAL bicycles.

[Ron Green]

71. +1

While it's interesting to see what technological advances are being made in various areas, the promotion of cycling as a significant part of the transportation mix should not be hijacked by introducing options such as this. Human-powered is the real thing.

[Fumesucker]

75. Pure human power is impractical for a lot of people in a lot of situations..

I live in a very hilly area where it gets hot and humid for about five months of the year, you start sweating as soon as you get out of air conditioning.

Ride two miles to the store up a 15% grade and you are drenched to the skin.

I ride about seventy miles a week most weeks, pure human power, I have to ride before daylight all through the summer, it's just too uncomfortable otherwise.

Then there are those who are simply physically incapable of riding without assistance, I rode with a newbie literally half my age on Saturday, I had to loaf to the point my heart rate never got over 90 BPM to keep from leaving her in my dust, she would never be able to keep up with me and I'll be sixty next year.

[Fumesucker]

72. Yes, I know..

The ones I see going the fastest on the bike trails where I live are those in Lycra riding "REAL" bicycles..

Note that the designer/builder rides the bike on the street, not on paths or trails.

[Ferret Annica]

74. Everyone who uses a human powered bicycle is on a real bicycle

And no human powered bicycle can sustain a speed like this piece of crap for as long as it can.

I don't give a rip what the idiot who designed this does, I care about what rich University of Oregon students and other people will do with arrogance and inconsideration.

This ain't my first barbecue. We have had to fight off motorized skateboards, University of Oregon Football program people using golf carts to go from the Autzen Stadium area to Franklin Blvd, etc.

We also help the interdiction effort for people trying to get away with using non human powered vehicles and surround, block or stop people who do it habitually who take the same route.

These things belong on the road, but not on a human powered bike path. They are the nest battle to preserve the path system locally and elsewhere.

[Fumesucker]

76. If you want people to get out of the cars and onto two or three wheels..

You are going to have to drop your purist attitude.

Most people who use an E-bike ride not much if any faster than a good bicyclist can under his own power.

Get off my grass!!

[Ferret Annica]

90. These are fast, silent and deadly

People need to recognize that they are doing nothing to improve the condition of their fatty butts, muscle lacking legs, and lack of wind by replacing one motorized conveyance for another.

I am not alone locally in being ready to scrap to keep this crap off the bike path. Motorized vehicles do not belong there. If you recharge an electric vehicle with coal generated electricity, I see nothing green about it.

[Fumesucker]

98. Twenty five watt hours per mile..

Versus a thousand or more for a car..

Nah, nothing green about cutting energy usage by an order of magnitude or two, eh?

Your plasma big screen TV uses more power in a day.

And if you read the thread I linked to, you'll see the builder *likes* pedaling, that's why he went to the trouble of putting three freewheels on the bike so you can pedal without having to spin against the motor.

[Ferret Annica]

108. I don't even do TV

Never mind having a whatchamacallit you used as an example. I am a forest activist and a vegan, I need no chiding on my carbon footprint. I also have not done cars in years, and at 55 year of age, I've owned two VW bugs in my life.

The power usage is still way higher then mine as a bicyclist. And I am what these annoyances will be confronting if they venture into jealously and aggressively guarded turf. I guarantee it.

[Fumesucker]

116. I don't do TV either..

But I have a big computer monitor. :)

It would be interesting to compare how much energy it takes to raise and bring you the food you eat to propel your bicycle with muscle energy versus the energy required to propel an E-bike with electricity. I don't have the expertise to do such a comparison but I strongly suspect you might be surprised..

It takes a certain amount of energy to push a bike a certain distance at a given speed, the energy can come completely from your muscles or it can come completely or partially from another source. If the energy comes from your muscles then it came from the food you eat, which has to be grown, transported, prepared and so forth, all of which requires energy from the tilling of the earth to the production of fertilizer.

I bicycle too, my avatar is my actual bike.

But I'm not fortunate enough to live in a bicycle friendly area, there aren't even shoulders on many of the roads I ride on and often a thirty or more foot near vertical dropoff as soon as you get off the pavement. I see electrical assist as a means of reducing my exposure to cell phone distracted cage drivers who might not even notice or stop if they hit me. The faster I go on my bike the less time I have to spend on the road and the fewer cars come by me and the less the speed differential is between me and the cars passing me.

When you start analyzing things from a holistic viewpoint it becomes remarkably complex very rapidly.

[Gman2]

138. Before you kill anyone, there are many handicapped that ride them.

[snort]

102. Holy shit! You certainly have

a hell of a lot more patience than I. I would have lobbed my computer through the window at this point. Thanks for the interesting article.

[Fumesucker]

104. It's a subject I'm interested in..

And I have more than a hundred times the posts on DU that you have, I'm used to the way things roll around here..

[Hepburn]

100. In the 1970s, I used to ride road races ~~

~~ sew up tires, toe traps and the whole 9 yards. Had a Mondia ~~ hand-cut lugs, no welding.

Fast forward 30+ years ~~ my arthritic knees cannot peddle a bike anymore so I have an e-trike to help me get around. That and I have other disabilities which impact on my balance. Why should a person with a disability be kept off of a public area ~~ like a bike path?

BTW: I also preferred REAL bicyles ~~ until I no longer had REAL knees.

[Fumesucker]

118. I had a double butted, chrome moly, bronze brazed Viscount..

Tip shifters, toe clips and all that jazz.

Today my avatar is my actual bike, my knees are still OK but I definitely don't have the grunt I used to. :)

[Hepburn]

127. I loved to ride....

...and I used to go to the velodrome in Encino all the time. My hero back in this era was Jack Disney ~~ and, lol, I wished I had thighs like his!

:rofl: Can you imagine a girl with his legs?!?!?!?!?!

[Romulox]

129. Why not a Dune Buggy on the bike path? Surely you don't discriminate!

"Why should a person with a disability be kept off of a public area ~~ like a bike path?"

Because it is a hazard to the people using the facilities as intended.

Most bike paths in my area will barely fit two cyclists abreast. If you are riding a motorized trike, you are likely a) going too fast for the path; and b) taking up the entire path such that traffic cannot pass in the opposing direction.

Both are extremely unsafe.

[bridgit]

79. That one's real fancy, there's a couple tooling round town that look like beach cruisers

with baskets and saddle bags and they're pretty cool :thumbsup:

[Gman2]

80. With a 350 watts motor, with 24 volts, using gears, you could go 20ish mph

Have reasonably quick takeoff, and go 30 miles or more. 20 is the speed limit, motor driven.

I am building a suspension, motored, trailer. Hook it up, and go long time. I will use deep cycle batts. Get them for 20 a piece at interstate used. I will go maybe fifty miles per charge. Take off the trailer, and you are back to 23 pound mountain bike. You arent always needing to go far.

The only reason you need that much power, is if you are stupid, or you have no gears. Gears will reduce your watts needs to about half. Or maybe a little higher.

You can get a brushless motor, with onboard controller, needing only a rheostat, and batteries to go. Motor is 79 dollars. Rheostat less than a dollar. Attach it to the free gear in front sprocket, remove front derailler, use back gears, and you will have plenty of distance, power to takeoff smartly while pedalling, and a cost in elec of pennies per day. Cept for rain, who needs a car.

[Gman2]

82. My next electrification project.

[Fumesucker]

85. It can be done..

I hope you are a fabrication wizard, I'm not a slouch but I wouldn't want to tackle that project. :)

[Gman2]

88. I am a moldmaker, process, automation eng.

But the mcycle will wait a while. Tech is not there yet. I get forty five mpg. It'll do high eights in the quarter.

[Fumesucker]

95. Yep, you have the chops to do it..

Don't wait too long though, the technology is advancing very quickly right now.

[Fumesucker]

83. The pedal drive that works through the gears is actually a bit tricky to implement..

For one thing you need a freewheel on your chainring unless you want the pedals to spin whenever the motor is powered. You'll have to fabricate your own chainring freewheel unless you buy a Cyclone kit, and they are far more than $79..

The trailer idea is a good one, I've been thinking about that one myself.

If I were gonna do the trailer I'd use a geared hub motor like this.

http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_ezee.php

[Gman2]

87. Not necessary for trailer. I took a cheap kids full suspension bike

cut the rear half off. Now, use tubes welded to that. You cut off the pedal cranks. Add three speed big dia wheel. Add batts at rear, so it is well suspended. Got frame for eight dollars. IT saves bucoo time.

[Fumesucker]

101. I have several old bikes around here I've been thinking of making into a trailer..

I just like the lack of mechanical complexity you get with a hub motor..

You have a link to that motor/controller combo you were talking about?

[Gman2]

103. Hub motors, unless they are internally geared, are wimps. Look for 24v motor on ebay.

[Fumesucker]

124. I think I found the motor you're talking about..

It's only 300 watts though..

http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Bicycle-Scooter-Brushless-24V-24-Volt-DC-Motor_W0QQitemZ350242678278QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518c172606&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

[Gman2]

136. yUP, SINCE IT IS BRUSHLESS, IT IS EQUIV TO BOUT 350DY 400

[flvegan]

94. Damn, I didn't even know SE Racing still made the PK Ripper.

[frylock]

115. they still produce that as well as the quadangle..

but what i'd really like to add to my collection is the new Big Ripper 29er:

[Fumesucker]

120. That's very cool..

But I need gears.. It's steep hills here and I'm getting old. :(

[flvegan]

123. Keep it out of the wet.

One rear caliper brake will be rendered all but useless pretty quickly in the wet.

Otherwise, pretty cool.

I went looking around and was surprised to see other bike makers from my youth are still going strong. Kuwahara, Hutch, etc.

[wildbilln864]

96. ***K&R! nt

[kestrel91316]

105. I think I'd prefer to stick with my own bike. Our hills are few and far

between, and not steep. And half my biking is on sidewalks to stay out of the way of cars driven by bike-hating freaks.

[Fumesucker]

106. LOL... We don't have anything that's *not* hills..

But plenty of bike hating freaks.. :(

That's a given in the US I think.

[Gman2]

140. That'll get you a fat ticket most places.

[sakabatou]

109. My friend in HS used to build them

I remember him saying, "If it doesn't go backwards the first time I use it, something's wrong." Hopefully, there's a throttle on this thing.

[snooper2]

110. This will help the obesity problem in America...

get on your E-bike, ride 2 miles to McCrack to eat your 3 double cheeseburgers :eyes:

just wait 10 years when the price goes down and every big box store has a model made in Taiwan....

[Fumesucker]

113. Since a legal E-bike is fairly slow, most people pedal as well..

Ride two miles where I live on a regular bike for five months of the year and you'll be drenched in sweat unless you do it before daylight. It's both very hilly and very hot/humid here from May to September.

And Wally World already has E-bikes..

[snooper2]

117. you are supposed to be drenched in sweat

that's why it's called "exercise"


Of course we are already doing it to toddlers, kids, so why stop the trend...

I rode one of these in the early 80's



Now all the kids are riding these...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_494hkFltuqQ/RpE5BvSG5yI/AAAAAAAAADE/6B-L296zm4U/s400/brl_051407_in+jeep+w+Ben.JPG

[Fumesucker]

119. Funny, from November to April I can ride just as hard and not be drenched..

I guess it's not exercise during those months, eh? :shrug:

And I have a yard slap full of bicycles and kick scooters for my grandkids, I have to be careful not to trip over them when I walk the dogs.

[snooper2]

121. beats me...I sweat all the time :)

:) Scraping Ice off the windshield will get me going :P

[Fumesucker]

122. You have a windshield on your bike?

I'm impressed. ;)

[snooper2]

125. I do but it is in the garage protected from the elements :)

[taught_me_patience]

126. I can't believe DUers are crapping on this invention

in this thread. This is amazing machine. Of course the price is going to be expensive... these are custom-made, one off productions. This represents everything great about american enginuity.

[Fumesucker]

131. Youv'e been here long enough to see that there isn't a damn thing that all DUers can agree on..

I'm not surprised at all, there is no silver lining so bright that some DUer won't find the dark cloud associated with it. :)

I've been called "purist" enough to have a bit of sympathy for others who appear purist sometimes though..

Me, I'd like to see single payer health care so this obviously vastly talented guy can set up shop building electric bikes without having to worry about whether his family will have health care, other DUers I'm sure will disagree with me on that.

[Gman2]

137. It is not an invention, it is a tim the toolman crash waiting to happen.

[Fumesucker]

144. The builder is a long way away from being Tim the Toolman..

Tim is an incompetent klutz, recumbence (the builder's handle) is anything but.

[Gman2]

147. Nevertheless, it is the same engineering ethic. Overpower until dangerous.;

[Gman2]

148. THen again, "some say" that an R1 1000 cc mcycle is overpowered!

[Fumesucker]

151. Exactly.. One persons wretched excess is another's bare sufficiency..

What does a Hyabusa run on the top end these days, 190?..

[Gman2]

153. Yeah, but it's gotta make it up hills too.

[taterguy]

161. I honestly don't see how this will get many cars off the road

The standard reasons for using a car will still apply:

The weather's too crappy.

I live too far from the places I need to go to ride a bike.

It's not safe to ride a bike.

Etc, etc.

I asked an expert about electric assist. He said any benefits from a motor are canceled by the weight of the motor when you're not using it.

A very small minority of people might find this useful. EAs have been around for years but have never been popular. You might as well buy a scooter.

ps: Another great invention is SpellCheck.

[upi402]

128. good for Floridians and Californians

the hills and rain here prevent me from partaking in this great idea. let alone the snow - it was an all time record snow last year and I bet climate change will continue.

[Fumesucker]

130. Hmm.. Florida has almost no hills but it rains a lot..

California has a lot of hills in some parts but southern Cal doesn't usually get much rain.

The whole point of an E-bike is that it levels out the hills for you.

Snow I can see where that might be a problem. :)

But it doesn't snow all year does it? ;)

[GreenPartyVoter]

133. This he could do it with one of these?

LOL :D

[bertman]

139. This is just going to make it easier for them to sneak up on your right side when you're

in the turn lane trying to turn right.

"911 operator, I'd like to report an accident. No need for an ambulance."

[Fumesucker]

141. Most experienced riders are far more aware of you driving a car

Than you are of them riding a cycle, bi or motor.

They wouldn't be experienced if they weren't alert and aware, they would be dead already.

We are thoroughly used to being overlooked or just looked right at and still not seen.

[bertman]

143. I appreciate your attempt to educate me, Fumesucker; however, I come from "Bicycle City"

where it's not only commuters, but students, racers, hobbyists, fitness buffs, and even off-roaders vying for space on the roads. We have an extensive bike lane system.

I used to ride a bike many miles every day to and from work and for errands, so I know what safe biking requires. Unfortunately, MANY people on bicycles are clueless or just too impatient (or maybe they are immortals), so they are constantly doing very unsafe things.

I learned a long time ago to Doublecheck my right side mirror before I turn. And, I'm proud to say that I have saved quite a few lives by being more aware. Still I am surprised at least once a month by the flagrant stupidity and recklessness of some bicyclists.

Bicyclists in North Carolina are SUPPOSED to follow the same rules of the road that cars are required to follow, but that is a joke. Many do not.

I wish this weren't true, but it is.

[Fumesucker]

145. And of course, all the *car* drivers follow the rules of the road perfectly, right?

:shrug:

[bertman]

149. I didn't say that. What's your point?

[Fumesucker]

152. Isn't it obvious?

You complained about bicyclists not following the rules of the road and yet never mentioned that drivers don't either.

At least a bicyclist texting while riding isn't likely to kill anyone but himself.

[Gman2]

150. This is why I wouldnt break the 20mph rule by much,

You are not keeping up with traffic. So, They constantly turn right, while you are at their side. So, you had better be able to stop on a dime. This requires the bike stay light. And not get up too much steam. If you do, it is a deathtrap. I got my collarbone lopped off, for going over the bars. Easy to do. My R1 is far more safe to ride in city than a bicycle. Or anywhere without bike lanes really.

[Fumesucker]

154. The reason your R1 is safer than a bicycle is because it will keep up with traffic.

I don't personally want a bike that fast but I see practically every day how riding up a steep hill at four mph in the second of 21 gears is pretty damn hazardous too. The faster I can climb hills the less time I spend on the road for a given trip and the fewer people pass me in cars and the lower the differential in speed between my bike and the car is.

Frankly I see getting hit from behind as a bigger hazard than having people turn right into me at an intersection. I know to beware at intersections, there's not much I can do about getting hit from behind by some fool texting or adjusting their MP3 player or whatever.

Where I live, climbing hills at low speed facing traffic would be safer than going with the traffic, at least you could watch out for cars about to hit you and take evasive action.

[Gman2]

155. Any driveway becomes your hazard. And 20 uphill aint nothin' to sneeze at.

[Fumesucker]

157. Most people don't drive the same pulling into their driveway as at an intersection..

And where did you get 20 uphill from?

[Gman2]

160. Are you KIDDING ME? They are getting a car up their rump, and are turning right.

They do it without their signal many times, and squeel tires doing the turn either way. They wait till the last possible second to make the move.

As for 20 uphill, that is IF you are pedalling too.

[Fumesucker]

162. My driveway is on a busy two lane state highway..

I *always* pump my brakes at least two or three times when slowing down to pull in my driveway because I know people aren't expecting anyone to slow right there.

Let's see, I've been driving for forty four years now, rode bicycles long distances on busy roads as a young teen and also in my twenties and rode motorcycles for about thirty years total, been hit several times in a car but never on a bike.

And I thought we were talking about a bike that will do fifty plus?

[Gman2]

164. Would that all were as curteous!

[Swamp Rat]

158. neato!

However, I still prefer the BionX.

http://www.bionx.ca

[Fumesucker]

163. The Bionx is cool but the Stealth Bomber and Fighter are even more cool..

http://www.stealthelectricbikes.com.au/stealth_bomber.html





And then there is the Pi..

http://pimobility.com/

[frog92969]

165. That Stealth is a very sweet ride!

Looks alot more suitable than the PKRipper for road speeds.

[mdmc]

175. yes