Tests show champion runner Caster Semenya is hermaphrodite

[swishyfeet]

Turns out 800-meter world champion Caster Semenya is a hermaphrodite - a person with both female and male sexual characteristics.

The tests, not yet publicly released, show the 18-year-old has no womb or ovaries, and testosterone levels 3 times higher than a normal woman.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26056981-401,00.html

[grantcart]

1. well how do they sort that one out? Anyway congratulations Caster

[swishyfeet]

3. Congrats for what?

Having nuts, or being world champ?

[panader0]

11. Sorry

[bigwillq]

22. Keep it classy.

:eyes: :mad:

[bigwillq]

42. I respect you for editing.

Thanks.
:hi:

[lonestarnot]

65. Welp now isn't that a fine howdy do. Now why does that poor person need to have that type of

exposure because she can outrun everyone?

[grantcart]

23. for overcoming a difficult condition and not staying in a closed room and wasting yr life

[Critters2]

29. My guess is she's being exploited by adults who knew of her condition.

If she didn't know about this, as seems to be the case, it's because others kept it from her. Far from my congratulations, I offer her my deepest sympathies. Her life is about to become difficult if not tragic.

[LisaL]

53. How did she overcome a "difficult condition" when she didn't know

she had it?

[DevonRex]

2. I wish her well. nt

[SoCalDem]

4. not entirely true

In biological context, a hermaphrodite is an organism that has both male and female reproductive organs...

no uterus or ovaries means no female reproductive organs.

I don't think that makes her a hermaphrodite

as mean as it sounds, she should not be competing as a female

[ohheckyeah]

No, but it's sex organs, not reproductive organs.

She evidently has a vagina.

[JeanGrey]

80. I agree. She is obviously more male and female.

She has no ovaries or uterus, but does have male organs, they are just not descended outside the body as they should be.

[FrenchieCat]

5. Doesn't that mean she gets to decide what she is?

That's what I would think happens.

[Critters2]

16. That's what's usually recommended. I have friends with an intersexed child.

They were encouraged to choose a gender-neutral name, and let the child choose a gender identification as s/he grew. They're finding it a really interesting and rich experience. Not as hard as they feared, though getting others to not use pronouns is difficult.

[Maru Kitteh]

20. Not - in the olympics.

[Critters2]

24. True enough. This probably ends her athletic career. nt

[Leftist Agitator]

28. "though getting others to not use pronouns is difficult. "

I suggest "shim".

[Critters2]

33. They encourage people to just use the first name, rather than any pronouns. nt

[DoctorMyEyes]

39. gender specific pronouns suck

We didn't face anything like the challenge your friends are living with, but I'm totally with them on the pronouns. When my granddaughter was in preschool she assigned a feminine pronoun to everyone and every creature, by default.

It made her teacher crazy, and her crazy by extension, always being corrected. "Is Billy a boy or a girl?", "A boy.", "Then he's a 'he', not a 'she'" and on and on. One day she basically asked the teacher what difference does it make and why do boys and girls have to be referred to as boys or girls when you don't use their name. The teacher told me about it and said it left her momentarily speechless. She thought it was a good point.

[Maru Kitteh]

19. Why?

[Critters2]

26. Why what? nt

[Maru Kitteh]

34. I was asking why she would be allowed to choose her gender for competition in the Olympics above

others who have had gender challenges in Olympic competition. What about transgendered persons? All I"m saying, is there have to be rules.

This poor girl was exploited terribly.

Imagine the possibility for exploitation if they were set aside?

[Critters2]

36. Oh, yeah. I agree on all points. She's been horribly exploited.

[Jennicut]

6. I feel bad for her...seems like she does not even know this news yet!

Where does she fit in society? Should she compete as a man or woman? Seems to strong for the women and too weak for the men. Poor girl.

[BrklynLiberal]

7. How sad for her...I would assume she thought she was a woman all this time...

So now she cannot run in any competition, and will have to deal with this publicity.

[Critters2]

21. The adults around her must have known.

No periods and other typical markers of female development. Certainly physicians who've treated her were aware. She's been badly exploited.

[NotThisTime]

69. Not necessarily - friends daughter just found out Friday at age 14 - as this woman is an athlete

that could certainly explain when she never had cycles in the first place.

I find it abhorrent that she doesn't even know the test results yet they are plastered on the web for all to see before she even finds out. My friends daughter is an understandable mess and now they need to do further testing to find out if there are serious complications that were obviously never looked for. It's very very serious.... My heart goes out to this girl. It is a bad situation for her.

[Maru Kitteh]

87. 14 is not 18, and while female athelets may experience diminished, sparse and irregular cycles -

Any legitimate physician on the face of the earth presented with an 18 year old female with NO history of ANY menses would know that something is wrong - and go looking.

Not to mention, a routine physical includes a pelvic exam, which checks for gross abnormalities of the ovaries and uterus.

[readmoreoften]

83. Not all women get periods. There are tons of intersexed people. At minimum 1:2000

1:1000 is more likely. All have different variations. Some believe transsexual persons are intersexed at a neurological level. That would make it much higher.

[Alameda]

59. I agree, what a shock for the poor girl.

..........and added to that is the publicity....:banghead:

[Uzybone]

8. Well her medals should stand

but going forward what should she be allowed to compete as? Male or female?

[Maru Kitteh]

25. Her medals will not stand.

[Jackeens]

30. Apparently she'll keep her World Championship medal regardless of the gender results

Caster Semenya will not be stripped of her World Championships 800m gold medal whatever the outcome of her gender test results, BBC Sport understands.

The testing process is unlikely to be concluded for two weeks but the IAAF - the governing body of world athletics - says Semenya can keep her medal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/8245107.stm

[Uzybone]

35. Thats the only fair thing to do

It doesn't appear she knowingly deceived anyone. She was raised female and thinks/thought she is female.

[Critters2]

37. Poor kid. Imagine getting this news. nt

[Capn Sunshine]

9. what IS it with all the Murdoch rag citations today?

Why not just run Batboy for congress?


ps Weekly World News just folded, I guess this leave the Aussies to fill the void
pps did I just feed the troll?

[swishyfeet]

15. Had no idea...

OTOH, if I saw a rag with Batboy running for congress while I was in line at the grocery store, I'd totally buy it.

[Capn Sunshine]

17. He's gonna have to do something

WWN is closed. He'll have to tour.

[Critters2]

10. The term used nowadays is "intersexed", and it is a difficult life.

It's a shame she's been so exploited, when what she needs is medical care. If dealt with appropriately, intersexed people can have good, full lives. But they have health risks that need to be cared for, not explored. Now, she'll have those issues, and probably public humiliation. I feel for her.

[Maru Kitteh]

12. She has all my best wishes. I hope and pray this is not how she is finding this out.

But I suspect it may be. I'm sure the trainers may have told her and her family that it was normal for a girl to have no menses with rigorous training, which is partially true. It's not normal however to have *never* had a menstrual period.

I think most of us suspected this would be the finding.

I hope she and her family will be ok.

[Texasgal]

13. How sad for her

This must be incredibly difficult for her and her family.

I think she should be able to compete.

[theHandpuppet]

32. Sorry, but no.

The fact that her testosterone levels are three times that of the normal levels for women has given her certain physical characteristics and advantages that make it virtually impossible for the other athletes to compete on a level playing field.

I know this is a really tough situation, but in order to be fair you can't be unfair to all of the other competitors.

[Texasgal]

38. So, can she compete with men?

[theHandpuppet]

45. I don't know what the answer is

But as I said, at what point can we be "fair" to one competitor by being unfair to all others?

[DaveinJapan]

57. So given that logic...

should they not have a testosterone testing requirement for all women and exclude any who have more than usual?

I mean, that would be only fair, right?

Or perhaps testosterone divisions would be more appropriate, like in boxing with weight classes. :eyes:



p.s. If she is found to have a vagina but elevated testosterone, could she be allowed to compete if she took hormones to correct her "cheating"?

[malaise]

14. This is a very sad story

but I do wonder if Caster and her family weren't aware before she took up competitive running. No womb and no ovaries suggests no menstration cycle.
Further the doctors would have known she was a hermaphrodite since birth.

This was troubling since the day she destroyed the field.
This is the end of her running career but I hope she writes a book and makes the most of her life.

[WeDidIt]

18. WARNING: Whatever you do, DO NOT look for the Freeper thread on this subject

It will be worse than you even dreamed they would be over this subject.

I guarantee it as I have seen the thread.

Again, DO NOT go looking for the Freeper thread on it. It made me ill and I regularly keep an eye on those fuckers.

[DeadEyeDyck]

60. What is that?

I see the Freeper thing and am told it is a right wing group. Where is their thread? I have searched on it and do not find the forum.

[XemaSab]

66. .

www.freerepublic.com

[WeDidIt]

76. IF you want to see the thread

find it yourself.

I've linked lots of threads to expose their vile shit in the past. I will NOT liknk this thread as it is too vile.

[Critters2]

78. I can only imagine.

I shudder to think. :scared:

[Jackeens]

27. The handling of this whole story by the IAAF was repulsive

It didn't seem to matter a f--k to them that she actually has a life to lead outside running around a track.



Lesiba Rammabi, Miss Semenya's uncle, responded angrily to reports in the Australian Daily Telegraph that the tests had revealed she possesses both male and female sex organs and has no womb.

"I believe Caster is normal, inside and out," he said. "What does it matter whether she can have babies or not? Many people cannot have children, why else do parents adopt? Are those women not women also? We are a normal family who looked at a child when she was born, saw that she was a girl and raised her as any other family would do. Are we now being told that we are wrong?

"We are very humiliated by what has been said and do not understand how it can be true. This is a woman who was raised a female. She will always be female, no matter what people say."

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/semenya-hermaphrodite-claims-denied-1785433.html

[Ex Lurker]

73. Attitudes toward this sort of thing are unenlightened in South Africa, to say the least

this will no doubt be difficult for her and her family. It may be wise to emigrate, for her own safety.

[readmoreoften]

84. What? And they're enlightened here? She's still treated like a hero in South Africa.

They say she can't help the way she was born and they largely except her as a woman.

[elocs]

31. How about just going by chromosomes? XX=female XY=male

Wouldn't that be simple?

[TygrBright]

40. Afraid not. She might be XXY, or XYY.

People born intersexed may also have chromosomal anomalies.

informatively,
Bright

[elocs]

49. The bottom line is that no female has a "Y" chromosome and all males have it. Right? n/t

[TygrBright]

52. Not necessarily. Some intersexed individuals who identify as female are XXY.

I don't think there is a definitive medical and/or legal ruling that controls in all cases.

How could there be? It's largely a matter of the individual's own determination.

[Maru Kitteh]

62. There are also XX males. n/t

[LisaL]

54. Nope that is not so.

[elocs]

72. Well, thank you for the explanation. Guess I'll just have to take your word for it. n/t

[readmoreoften]

86. There is also XO.

Not all people are XX and XY. There is no definitive way to decide sex. Genitals, appearance, and genetics can all be misleading.

[flvegan]

41. Let her keep the medals and let her compete.

Yeah, 3x the test of an average woman (allegedly). The average man has 50x the test of the average woman.

To me, it's like saying Shaq can't play basketball because he's 6 inches taller and 100 lbs heavier than the avg player.

This opinion, of course, will not be popular.

[Maru Kitteh]

46. She has undecended testicles. This girl has already been exploited in a terrible fashion and

probably at great risk to her health.

Some rules do have good reason, and the discouragement of exploitation of other people like her is a good one, as is her own health.

[flvegan]

47. And I hope

that if she needs medical correction, she will seek it. I honestly don't know enough about intersexed individuals to know about health risks. However, I hope that if she wants to keep competing, she will.

As for exploitation, I admittedly don't know any of the backstory. If that's the case, I hope someone will come forward to assist her in making proper decisions.

[Maru Kitteh]

48. First, I'd like to discuss the advantage that a 200% increase in testosterone gives her over her

competitors. Since she does have testes, they have been secreting testosterone (even if in smaller amounts than normally descended testes) into her body for her entire life. This has provided her with the more outwardly obvious appearance of a mans body, but what's more important is the advantages it has provided her with that you can't see.

Biologically, this isn't anything at all like someone taking steroids. Her lifetime of exposure to testosterone from her testes has greatly increased the density and mass of her bones, which increases the load they are able to bear and allowing for equivalent increase in strength of the muscles attached to them.

Testosterone from her testes has likely resulted in a marked increase in heart mass and cardiac output, one that training alone could never provide. That lifetime of exposure to testosterone has also provided her with cumulatively advantageous muscle mass characteristics that could never be achieved by her biologically female competitors.

Testosterone also produces a greater number of mitochondria in each and every muscle fiber of the masculinized body, as well as increasing the mass of skeletal muscle tissue. Any person can increase their number of mitochondria through exercise, and some individuals of either sex are blessed by nature with a slightly increased number of mitochondria, however, nothing - no amount of training and nutrition will enable a non-masculinized person to compete with a masculinized individual where sheer speed and strength are concerned.

Like it or not, humans are a dimorphic species. 200% more testosterone in the body (especially among female competitors) isn't the same thing at all as a competitor having a few inches of height advantage. There is no way to be fair to Miss Semenya without being patently unfair to all of her biologically disadvantaged peers.

[flvegan]

50. Have they been?

So you've seen the monthly t counts of this competitor that states these testes have been secreting 200% of an increase in test over "her entire life" huh? No. Have you seen her epi counts? I'm going with probably not.

Not I nor you have a single fucking clue what's going on or has been going on in her body since she was born. All that's been alleged is that her current test count states that she has (allegedly) 3x the amount of test of the average woman. I think a good number of folks would be surprised to find out that there are likely a number of current and former female athletes that had a significantly higher level of test being produced in their bodies. Should we just start taking test counts from every female athlete with lats and biceps? Just throw the whole ratio thing out and be done with it, I suppose.

Your underlined statement is laughable.

So thank you, Dr. Kitteh for "schooling" me on testosterone and athletic performance even though we have so few scientific facts about this particular person. It makes me feel as if the last 17 years of my life studying it were a total waste, since I could have just turned to you. Shucks.

[Maru Kitteh]

51. Evidence suggests it, yes.

One can, with some informed knowledge of anatomy and physiology, draw some fairly reasonable conclusions based on the available evidence - and we have a lot of it. Also I was not rude to you in the least in my replies to you. Wouldn't it be nice if you could return the courtesy?

[flvegan]

55. You mean visibly available evidence, right?

That always works.

Personally, I think that delving into what may or may not be her situation, without anything short of what a couple articles have stated does her a grave disservice and only heaps even more attention and speculation on what is, I'm sure, a difficult time in her life. That's why I refused to make any attempts to do so.

Don't be condescending, and I'll return the favor.

[Maru Kitteh]

61. It's obviously a difficult time in her life. My heart goes out to the young girl. Most of all I

hope she quickly gets the medical care she needs.

As for the rest, her appearance is only one clue. The keystone to the whole unhappy business is the finding of testis. I sincerely hope the young lady is able to move on from this and it isn't a terrible disaster for her.

I'm sure I'd like to smack with a bat anyone around her who knew this about her but chose to mislead her, use her, lie to her family...... I find it all rather sickening. It seems to stretch credulity that an athlete competing at the level she was would have a coach that had so little contact with her physician that he would not have known her condition. Having an 18 year-old female present with NO menstruation, ever would be just like having an 18 year-old male present with pre-pubescent genitalia and no pubic hair. Something's obviously wrong, and you go look.

I don't think this young lady mislead anyone. I think she's been victimized and now humiliated by a few self-serving bastards who don't care about what they did to her LIFE. As I said, most of all, I hope she quickly gets the medical care she needs.

[flvegan]

64. I agree with everything you've said here.

All I wish for her is what's best for her. Unless the media can help her sort things out, I hope they'll just leave her alone at this point. And, like you, most of all, I hope she quickly gets the medical care she needs.

[FlaGranny]

71. This makes me wonder if

polycystic ovary syndrome, with its increasesd male hormone levels, could disqualify a woman - although a woman with this problem usually isn't the athletic type.

[Lyric]

63. It's popular with me.

I agree with you completely.

[flvegan]

67. Thank you.

[aikoaiko]

43. More info is needed. No womb and no ovaries does not make one a true hermaphrodite.

[tammywammy]

44. It probably means she has a vagina and a larger clitoris

Edited to add: The article says she has internal testes.

[readmoreoften]

88. Speculating about her genitals is inappropriate.

AIS females also have testes and they can't process androgens whatsoever. Their appearance is traditionally hyper-feminine (perfect soft skin, breasts, long legs, slight features) yet they are genetically XY.

Her genitals could appear any number of ways and/or look "normal"--although there are about 100+ versions of what "normal" female genitals look like. (I'm a female and I've seen a bunch.)

[Libertas1776]

56. Well, that's one heckuva technicality

So what is their decision going to be now? Hopefully, it will end up only for the best for her.

[Alameda]

58. I feel sad for Caster.........

who should be left alone in whatever sexual condition that has been found. Why should a inter-sex person be forced to choose anything? They are what they are, leave them alone! How many lives have been tragically ruined by other meddling in their sex. Enough!

[eShirl]

74. "God made me the way I am and I accept myself. I am who I am and I'm proud of myself."

On the bright side, she sounds more well-grounded than most teenagers.

[NuttyFluffers]

68. ah, Mother Nature loves to throw out our preconceptions... but a poor innocent is now caught

hmm, what ever shall the sporting committees do to bring nature back into line with the 'more important mandates' of sporting rules? does this point more to the artifice of competition, or more to the beautiful complexity of existence?

[4lbs]

70. It seems Caster will no longer be able to compete as a woman because the testosterone levels are

too high. They are outside the normal range for a woman.

However, I would think that if they were within the normal range for a man, that Caster could compete as a man. There would be no performance advantage in that case.

[Ex Lurker]

75. apparently they are well above the level for a woman

but well below the level for a man.

[Critters2]

79. I think they're lower than most men.

This is so sad. Don't see a good resolution.

[readmoreoften]

85. Are they testing women or athletic women? I know women who have very high t-levels

and they're not intersexed.

[Maru Kitteh]

91. Really? What are these not-intersexed females free testosterone levels?

Are they athletes? Are they overweight? Do they have other health issues?

Shoot us some numbers and facts.


------------------------

Of COURSE they are testing biologically female athlete peers.


Free testosterone levels like this in 18 year old females who are not overweight and without other health issues do not just drop out of the sky. They have reasons. In this case, the reasons are testicles.

What this young lady has had happen to her is in no way related to AIS females, who develop from en utero lacking the genetic receptor that allows their body to respond to the hormonal cues that result in masculine characteristics. As a result, they sometimes end up looking even more feminine than most genotypical and phenotypical females. This is not the case with this young woman.

The press SHOULD have been asking straight away who was exploiting her, why her physician wasn't honest with her and her family, and who the HELL is responsible for her finding this news in this terrible fashion.

[ecstatic]

77. Is this coming from a reliable news source?

Far as I know, the IAAF hasn't officially released a report yet.

[firedupdem]

81. I feel so sorry for her. Not having a menstrual cycle is quite common

in very athletic women. How would she know what was inside of her? I think it's horrible to have leaked this information out to the public this way. This is something she needed to deal with personally before it was blasted for the world to hear. So sad and not her fault.

[buzzycrumbhunger]

82. A medical side note

Undescended testes predispose one to developing testicular cancer, which makes it a serious health risk. If they were removed, it might be a solution everyone could live with, though she'd then have to decide about the risks and benefits of hormonal supplements. I would think estrogen might be a good idea, especially in someone pounding her bones as an athlete because a complete lack would also mean early osteoporosis.

What a shitty thing to have to play out in the media. Wasn't Renée Richards eventually allowed to play tennis as a woman after sex reassignment?

[readmoreoften]

89. There is a standard time for transgendered athletes. I believe a decade.

(of course, their best years are often over after they wait and female-to-male transsexuals have no advantage over XY born males.)

[Maru Kitteh]

92. Bi-Lateral Orchiectomy and E2 supplement could be the key.

I guess she *might* suffer an increased breast cancer risk... bot those findings are based on studies of "normal" females.

I hope she does what she feels is right for her - in her heart.

I hope whatever she does, she gets the care that she needs, and more support than she thought possible.

[bridgit]

90. Seen that, we should ask Marge the proper course going forward

http://www.faces.net/askmarge_articles_display.asp?margeID=808

[cherish44]

93. I think she should keep her medals

She didn't cheat to win them. Her advantage is biological and apparently she didn't know about it. Whether or not she can compete as a female in the future is probably going to be a difficult issue. (by the way I know a woman who had about 3 times the normal amount of testosterone due to polycystic ovarian disease and she is biologically 100% female).