Snoop Dogg weighs in on Don Imus. Time to FIRE Snoop

[LibraLiz1973]

"It's a completely different scenario. (Rappers) are not talking about no collegiate basketball girls who have made it to the next level in education and sports. We're talking about hoes that's in the 'hood that ain't doing shit, that's trying to get a nigga for his money. These are two separate things. First of all, we ain't no old-ass white men that sit up on MSNBC going hard on black girls. We are rappers that have these songs coming from our minds and our souls that are relevant to what we feel. I will not let them muthafuckas say we are in the same league as him. Kick him off the air forever."

- Snoop dismissing comparisons between sexist hip hop lyrics and the recent sexist/racially charged remarks made by Don Imus



Ok. Clearly Snoop is advocating continuing stereotype black women who aren't fortunate enough to get scholarships to college.

Are you angry about this? Will you boycott? Will you write to his record company and demand his firing? Will you write your local radio stations that play him and demand his songs be taken off the air?



http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070412/ENTERTAIN/70412010

[KG]

1. this more satire. right?

[LibraLiz1973]

3. Nope- it is really something he just said.

[burythehatchet]

132. sadly, no.

[Ned_Devine]

2. he has one or two points though

[LibraLiz1973]

4. Like what?

[Ned_Devine]

5. Like, Snoop isn't some old white guy

[LibraLiz1973]

8. Yeah, that isn't racist or stupid.

So the criteria is that if you are black you can denigrate and disrespect black women at will and be lauded for it?

[LiberalFighter]

57. So I guess SnoopDog is saying its okay to denigrate women if they are same race

Whites can't denigrate black women and blacks can't denigrate white women? How much you want to bet that he and his fellow rappers denigrate white women too but not in public. Yes, whites using their word against them is bad but it is just as bad when they use it against their own people.

I don't agree with Snoop or any of the rappers either. Just as I wish they tone down the vulgar language. It does not lend itself to civility with others.

[jollyreaper2112]

237. yeah, he does have some points

Like the "ho's are trying to get a nigga's money." It's hard out there for a multi-platinum recording artist who hasn't been anywhere near a hood in years.

[qanda]

6. No need to boycott what I already don't listen to or buy

[youthere]

73. I agree with Bombtrack...you'll have to start purchasing his CD's ...

and then stop. M'Kay? ;)

[Bombtrack]

7. It's not very valid to boycott a musician whos albums you never buy

or whos concerts you never go to.

And even if Doggy Fizzle Televizzle was still on the air I don't have a Nielson ratings box. But I'll tell you what I won't buy the Doggy Fizzle Televizzle DVD's ok ?

[AlCzervik]

10. i won't buy one either--ok?

:D

[AngryAmish]

254. I only buy his pornography

[AlCzervik]

9. does Snoop have a talk show? what is he going to be "Fired" from?

[LibraLiz1973]

21. By this logic, celebrities should only be accountable if they have a radio show.

Is this a joke?

[AlCzervik]

24. when you already don't buy his stuff you're already participating in a boycott.

what i'm saying is--where is there to fire him from?

[mzmolly]

151. His record label?

:shrug:

[dogday]

245. True, many people never even watched Imus

but that did not stop them for calling for his termination... Looks like you don't need to buy anything, just make enough stink about it....

[devilgrrl]

11. Shouldn't people harp on Mel Brooks and Woody Allen for satarizing Jews too?

Sorry, I'm not buying the "why do rappers get away with it" "but David Chappell..." bullshit.

[LibraLiz1973]

13. I agree. The standard needs to be set and there can't be "exceptions"

Otherwise it is just more bullshit.

[Neshanic]

84. Would you like to join the cause? We like the way you think!

[Leopolds Ghost]

246. If so, Please check out the Official Fire Rush and GLenn Beck thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x639819

:-)

[jollyreaper2112]

242. I don't watch woody allen

Brook's jewish satire is a lot more fun and loving. He's not going out there saying "Motherfucking kikes after a nigga's money" and shit like that. His stuff is more like the affectionate ribbing and troop harrassment you give a friend. Brooks isn't mean-spirited. That's the difference between lefty humor and righty humor. Brooks pokes fun at himself and says "Hey, ain't it the truth? Let's have a good laugh." Righty humor is more like Bush: "I'm laughing at you because you're crippled." And this rap shit? It's not even humor, it's just male threat behavior posturing. Dogs piss on things to mark their territory, men piss on people, and rappers piss on their community. "Yeah, them wimmins who only want us for our money, fucking ho's. They should want me for more than my wallet. But shit dawg, look at the rump on that bitch! I wanna pop that bubble! What do I have to do to get her attention and make her look past the yawning chasm of hollowness that is my soul? Bitch, want some bling? Yeah? Shit, that's nice."

Remember that Vanity Fair Soprano's cover people were up in arms about? That's a perfect portrait of the same shit going on in rap.

[WinkyDink]

12. I don't buy Snoop already, for many reasons. But haven't you ever heard of

how if it's blood, it's BETWEEN blood?

Anyway---which would you prefer: both "fired"; or both in everyone's good graces? Can't split that blame ticket, the way you've presented it.

[LibraLiz1973]

18. OH MY GOD. That is the dumbest argument ever!

What your saying is blacks can dis blacks 24/7 and say every dirty, nasty, disgusting thing.... and it's fine!! It only counts as being racist or sexist if a white man says it. If a black man writes some derogatory lyrics about black women (or women in general) and the song is a hit and people (including CHILDREN) are chanting these lyrics and mimicking these "values" it's okey dokey?

[CatWoman]

32. not half as dumb as your's

[LibraLiz1973]

36. Literally ROFLMAO

You keep that head in the sand now, ya hear?

[donco6]

44. Amen.

Geez, will she ever hang it up? The guy's fired. It's over.

[CatWoman]

47. she's the energizer bunny of "Free Don Imus" threads

:eyes:

[LibraLiz1973]

51. I know!! What is this, my 3rd?

Jesus, how do you look at the front page with it all filled like that?

[donco6]

53. ROFLMAO! n/t

[LibraLiz1973]

54. FTR- I just looked... this is my 2nd.

And it isn't a FREE IMUS thread.
It's a "Does the rule apply only to Imus" thread.

[AlCzervik]

61. can i ask why you are personally angry about Imus being canned?

he said what he said and the his employers fired him for it, he's not a 1st amendment hero. Jimmy the greek got canned others have as well for doing the same thing. How hard is not to call a group of college athletes "Nappy headed ho's" really, it's not difficult.

[LibraLiz1973]

114. I'll answer your question seriously.

1. I watched Imus in the AM once a week for the last year and a half. Before that I was not familiar with his work. I was not a "fan" of the satire of the show, but, I was interested when certain guests were on. I was also interested in the reporting he and his guests did on the Walter Reed situation - along with other things.

2. I agree that what Imus said was ridiculous and disgusting.

3. I do NOT, however, think that what Imus said rises to the Defcon 7 level that it is at. Was he wrong? YES. Should he have been suspended/fired? I think not.

4. I think that had Imus been allowed to return, and he had taken steps to change the format of the show- specifically the lack of an African-American panelist- that
doing so would have changed the game for ALOT of people.

5. I really think that if there is going to standard to be set, that All people need to be held to it. It worries/aggravates/stuns me that so many give other "celebrities" a pass
on spouting things that, frankly, are FAR more inappropriate. If it applies to one person, it should apply to everyone.

[Spazito]

187. ROFL!

Perfect, absolutely perfect!

:rofl:

[Bluerthanblue]

144. when will YOU 'hang it up'?

Yes, the man is out of a job- but people who claim to be progressive, socially responsible Democrats, seem hell bent on defending him- minimizing the impact and the destructive attitude that is beneath the words he USED against people who did absolutely NOTHING to him-

Why, may I ask do you feel the need to continue defending him???

I address those who continually whine about the fact that this man has suffered the concequences of his actions. I'm not asking that anything further happen to him- What is your agenda???

I DO have "skin in the game"-

Do you?

[donco6]

235. I think you misposted.

I'm saying, Amen, glad the bigot is gone. :shrug:

[Leopolds Ghost]

249. If you guys care so much about this issue, join us on the FIRE RUSH, BECK Thread

Help us make sure that the standard is applied fairly. OR you can let
the media decide FOR you which racist remarks you let slide.

Your choice. Now's the time to make sure the principle is applied fairly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x639819

I think the Imus firing sets a bad precedent only if we don't apply it fairly. It's all up to you, Bluerthanblue et al.

No action on the Fire Rush / Beck thread tells me this is all a bunch of hot air motivated by which racists the media is influencing us to get riled up about and which racists your television set is subtly telling you not to take action on, or to merely bitch about (e.g. Rush) without taking concerted effort to make sure the principle is applied fairly.

[burythehatchet]

135. you gotta admire her ability to

expose herself to the public

[Bluerthanblue]

156. you don't 'gotta' admire people who talk AROUND

someone and not to them.

I have ears, if you have a problem with me, perhaps you could direct your comments to me personally- rather than having your own snide side party-


I have not shown you any disrespect. Is it really too much to ask the same in return?

Racist, sexist prejudice is an issue I am passionate about.

I make no apology for that.

thanks-
blu

[burythehatchet]

188. I think your pistol has misfired

i.e., I wasn't replying to whatever you posted.

[Bluerthanblue]

200. I'm sorry, you are absolutely right- I did make the

mistake of thinking you were replying to me.
I apologize for my mistake.

peace,
blu

[burythehatchet]

210. peace love and hot tuna :)

[Bluerthanblue]

214. thanks-

I need to take a break- I'm making even less sense than 'normal'(which isn't good) :silly:

I appreciate your not taking offense.

peace, & goodnight-
blu

[Leopolds Ghost]

250. Blu, the only thing I care about is making sure the principle is applied across the board.

Firing people is a serious act, if we're going to start doing it then
exceptions can't be made.

That is why all DUers should stop messing around and go to the FIRE RUSH / BECK thread
or start their own (although it would be better to have a single thread if people take
this issue seriously.)

[WinkyDink]

37. No, I'm not argung that. I'm saying that African-Americans don't need my white-arse

"help" in telling them about their own community. Dick Gregory wrote a book whose title expresses exactly my point: HE could use the title BECAUSE HE'S BLACK.
Are you saying Snoop is a RACIST towards African-Americans?
I CAN criticize a member of my own race for bigotry towards ANOTHER race.

Misogyny is a whole different dynamic. I believe both Imus and Snoop have shown this trait. But that isn't why Imus was fired, if I'm hearing my TV correctly.

[mondo joe]

46. And what about sexism? Is sexism fine as long as it's between members of the same race?

[WinkyDink]

239. I believe I addressed that topic in my concluding sentences.

[LibraLiz1973]

118. By this argument we all need to remain separate

The blacks in their community
The Whites in theirs
etc etc.
We shouldn't even be allowed to talk to eachother.
If a white man attacks a white women in public, are black men allowed to intervene?

[WinkyDink]

241. To intervene is not to lecture.

[Bluerthanblue]

139. where in ANY place did I say that "blacks can dis blacks 24/7" YOU

LibraLiz are a flat out liar.

Either that or your reading comprehension is worse than my ability to convery my thoughts lucidly.

And if that is the case, you have no right to make statements about what I say without stating that what you write is your interpretation- (twisted at best) of what I have written.

You owe me an apology-
read my post again, and think hard before you post- ok?

[Bluerthanblue]

208. please excuse me for my post above- I have been

online too long today I guess- I got totally messed up with this thread, and read accusations and insults where there were none.

I'm sorry that I accused you wrongly LibraLiz.

I need to go take a break.

peace,
blu

[jollyreaper2112]

243. blood betwen blood?

But what if some Crips are involved?

[americanstranger]

14. Boycott? I already am!

I don't own any Snoop CDs.

Don't listen to him, and complaining to his record compny won't do much good, becuase I'm pretty sure that Snoop OWNS his record company.

ON EDIT: I was wrong. Snoop does not own his own label, he records for Geffen. FYI.

- as

[Fran Kubelik]

15. even better - say fo shizzle a lot

He will *love* that.

[sandnsea]

16. And Foxworthy shouldn't say redneck

So what does a person's cultural background have to do with a media personality being a bigoted pig?

[bigwillq]

17. It's different with musical artists

I think because we can choose not to buy their cds or albums or dvds or attend their concerts.

On the radio, the songs are edited and none of the real vulgar material can be played on the radio.

With Imus or any other talk show host, we really don't get a choice in whether or not they're on the air because that decision is made by a corporate head. We can choose to not watch or turn off the tv but people like Imus are being broad casted nationally unlike Snoop or any other musical artist and in that case we really don't have a choice.

I think it's a bit different in trying to compare Snoop and Imus.

[melissinha]

19. I see what he means

HE has a point that there is a bit of truth in his specific point, thats kind of why this is so outrageous, these girls didn't deserve that comment it is complete BS based on the predominant race of 2/3 the team. HOWEVER, I think it is incumbent upon Snoop Dogg to stop propagating the fact that women he associates with are hos and inadvertently give the right wing a pathetic absolution of guilt for their filthy hate speech. its time to stop. Black leadership has been fighting rappers all along which means that it is not some right of absolution, it has all got to stop. But then Snoop would have to broaden his subject matter....

[timeless12]

125. Look up some lyrics...

Go and type in white girl (or gurl) into google along with "lyrics" and you will find a few songs with some fairly interesting lyrics about white girls. Many of these songs can be heard on the radio.

I don't hear too many songs by white men saying "lemme hit u in ur head n bust nuts in ur curl black girl"...

Of course not...and if they did...UH OH OFF TO AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION WITH IMUS.

[originalpckelly]

20. When black men enslave white men and then pretend to free them...

only to keep them in another type of bondage, then and only then will powerful white men saying these things be equivalent.

[LibraLiz1973]

29. WHAT?

Slavery is OVER and it has been for a LONG time.
Frankly, slavery should not even come into this. If the argument can't be proven without referencing an event long since over, than the argument isn't that strong.
It is insane. Bondage is bondage, whether it comes from a white man or a black man.

[Bluerthanblue]

108. slavery may be 'over' for you- but if you sincerly

believe that Black men and women have equal opportunity in this country....

then I hope someone with more patience than I have will enlighten you.

peace,
blu

[Rosemary2205]

138. What you just said

is the very reason why so many wealthy white men - the powers that be in this country - need the smackdown regarding their open racism. The very fact that you clearly do not understand how the ongoing racism steming from 400+ years of slavery negatively influences life every day in this country means these bigots have done their self appointed jobs very well.

[timeless12]

143. and people like snoop are the

ones who will bring the change that os neccesary in this country in order to have blacks and whites on a level playing field.

If anything the "rap world" is moving the progress of this country in a backward motion.

Why would a rich white kid who has never been around the "black community" think anything but that black men are just gangsters who beat their "hos". I mean in all honesty...that is what is on TV. There is no postive image in the media of black people...for youth. The only postive images you see of the "black community" is from political figures.

You can't blame everything on white people...that is just sheer stupidity.

[Rosemary2205]

147. LOL

Not a single comment you made to me has anything to do with what I ACTUALLY posted -- nothing I posted shows any support for gansta rapper ....... And when gangsta rappers are in charge of the boardrooms and governments in this country then give me a call. :eyes:

Also see. #142.

[w13rd0]

232. Then I ask you...

...why are so many white children from the suburbs damned and determined to emulate what they see advanced on TV? How many are out there eating all the Ho-Ho's to emulate Tony Soprano? What, isn't he gangster? And I'm sure his fictional persona has killed more people than Snoop's fictional persona.

And do you really believe there are "no positive images" in our society for black youth? But do you hear of those positive role models on the news channels, or on your radio? Of course you don't. Why is that? Don't the rich white executives in charge of the media want black youth to be exposed to the positive role models that DO exist in society? No, apparently they don't. After all, it isn't on TV, so must not exist.

If it weren't for the white kids buying that music, buying the marketing, there would NOT BE A MARKET. You know why artists that have lyrics about black empowerment and overcoming adversity don't get airplay, don't you? Because their message doesn't resonate with the WHITE MARKET. And frankly, why should it? It's not about them.

So this frequent canard of chalking all the problems up to "rap culture" is utter bullshit. It is today what Jazz was in the 1920s, at least in how it is used in the "mainstream media" : An excuse to portray the black man as a licentious, womanizing criminal. I suggest you go study the demographics of record sales. Maybe you can convince your white children to support african american artists that talk about the problems within the black community and ways to overcome those issues.

Your society is what you make it. Those that blame "rap culture" for the worlds ills frankly have either a vastly unrealistic perspective on the world as it exists, or they are being purposefully deceitful in an attempt to advance an ulterior agenda.

[slackmaster]

22. I think I lost about 20 IQ points reading that

:crazy:

[Forkboy]

48. I'm in a merciful mood today,but beware not to lob such tempting softballs out like that again.

:evilgrin:

[mudesi]

23. Rappers are sell outs

A point that often gets missed when people bring up rappers is the fact that they are paid millions of dollars by predominantly white, rich, males to keep selling bigotry.

I understand the counterpoint that it's their "artform" and that because they are black, they are allowed to "own" the words, but let us not miss the real beneficiaries of their product: The record company executives and their shareholders.

[Bjorn Against]

40. You are absolutely right...

It is not the black people who choose what artists get signed to the major labels it is the studio executives who are usually white. In the early days much of the hip hop music was very socially conscious, anyone who has listened to Public Enemy knows that they were very outspoken on many issues. Now there are very few mainstream hip hop artists who really speak truth to power, and that is because the record labels do not sign those types of artists any more.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

25. Yes, I will boycott everything he does.

Umm, what is it exactly that he does? Isn't he that guy with the little pigtails that was on Hollywood Squares a long time ago? He didn't talk with a dirty mouth like that when he was on HS. Ok, I won't watch the show anymore. Is it still on?

[Fran Kubelik]

38. That was Coolio.

[AlCzervik]

39. he's retired to Amish Paradise.

[theboss]

26. Frankly, I think we've found our nominee for 2008

Fuck it. Get Snoop on the ballot.

I've been thinking about this. Snoop has been the coolest man in America for something like 15 straight years. I don't think there has been a run like that since Sinatra was wearing out hookers in Vegas.

[slackmaster]

42. OK, I have the perfect running mate for Snoop

[JVS]

238. I'm going to go over there and kick them in the crotch

And then when I get out I will grab a sword like Maximus Meridius Demidius and as a Gladiator I will stab people in the crotch.

http://www.freetraficant.com/submittedquotes.php

[Leopolds Ghost]

251. SNOOP / TRAFICANT '08 n/t

[randr]

27. Yeah-coming from their minds and souls

That is the problem we are facing.
Systemic, pervasive hatred and disrespect.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. White country artists sing about low-down no-good lovers too

I don't see anyone condemning them for perpetuating redneck stereotypes.

[AlCzervik]

30. hmm, you raise an excellent example.

[LibraLiz1973]

34. I could not agree with you more.

The STANDARD has to be the standard for EVERYBODY.
Enough of this "It's ok for this one but not for this one" bullsh*t.

[hfojvt]

104. nah, it is a bad example, without specifics

writing about an untrue lover is not the same thing, if I understand rap, alot of it is calling ALL women hos and beeches. Not just one or two who may have wrong you. Snoop claims there is a distinction, but I don't think it is there.

[timeless12]

119. uh right

Fortunatly the "norm" in country music is not "my bitch cheated on me so i killed the bitch...yaaaaa what now". Not to say that there isnt the occasional song like that...but you dont hear it in most songs.

[Leopolds Ghost]

252. What about "I'll put a boot in yer ass"..."Down by the Ohio I cut her up"..."You know you gotta die"

Classic country lyrics.

[MonkeyFunk]

31. I hereby vow

that I will continue to not buy his records.

[donco6]

41. Me too.

Now that's all wrapped up . . . Who's next LibraLiz?

[AlCzervik]

43. Toby Keith.

[donco6]

50. LOL! That breaks my heart, too. n/t

[AlCzervik]

52. i've always boycotted him, even before he started singing about putting his boot up

someone's ass, just not my kind of music.

[donco6]

59. I actually liked the song he did w/ Sting.

Then he had that enchephalocardial infarction and started spouting RW bullshit.

[AlCzervik]

64. i have a really negative thing about country music having nothing at all to do with politics.

it's not the music really, it's what i associate it with, or more to the point whom.

[Robson]

264. Sounds a little like stereotyping

Sorry I try not to pigeon hole people. I hear too much pigeonholing from the right. It used to be that those on the left were accepting of the beliefs of others. Now I hear the same judgmental opinionated stereotypical comments on both sides. That's why my views became more independent than some strong partisans might prefer.

[Bucky]

234. To protest this outrage, I will now cease saying "for shizzle my nizzle" to friends

Take THAT you sexist pig, I mean "dogg"

[rasputin1952]

33. I don't see what I can boycott, I wouldn't buy a Rap CD anyway...

:shrug:

But I will point out that he is ridiculous for saying this, and I don't believe this for a moment. He, like everyone in business, is in it for the $. It pays to denigrate people so if there is money in it, some people justify it.

Which is worse?

Denigrating women over the air, or denigrating women by placing the caricature in a song on a CD?
Neither of them sound particularly "good". Same thing, different media...:(

[LibraLiz1973]

35. Neither is worse... they are both the same

[rasputin1952]

49. And that is the ugliness of this whole situaton. Some cover their ...

evil w/the mantle of "justice", others just come straight out and say they are in it for the $ or fame; regardless, it is reprehensible behavior AFAI...:(

[Colobo]

45. Snoop Dogg is trash... way more dangerous than Imus

because his crap is heard by millions of young Americans.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. Unlike Imus Who Had About Three Fans

Rappers like Snoop, Cube, and Em have tens of millions of fans. If you boycott them and your boycott gets in the news you will only sell a million more cds for them.

[Yavin4]

56. I Agree With The OP, Snoop Should Be Fired from His MSNBC Show and His CBS Radio Show Immediately

um..what's that? He doesn't have shows on those networks? Never mind.

[Evilismdestroyer07]

71. It is pretty funny

a bunch of black guys on my boat agreed with Imus. Not saying its right... Of course they arnt like sharpton, thier careers arnt built on being persecuted. This whole thing is sooooo stupid. There should be a 200 page thread about Iraq before there is a two page thread on Imus. Move on. He apologized.

I dont think Imus is wasting billions of dollars getting americans killed is he? The responce to this is completely dispraporional to what happend.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

198. How many black guys in a bunch?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

58. Fire Eric Clapton too. He promotes cocaine use and he shot the sheriff. n/t

[LibraLiz1973]

62. But he swore it was in self defense!! n/t

[Roy]

88. But he didn't shoot the deputy down!!!!! N/T

[LibraLiz1973]

60. I will suggest that maybe some white music execs might need firing

Because they are encouraging and benefiting from having black men pen disgusting lyrics demoralizing women. By signing these artists and demanding content like this, they are a major part of the problem.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. These Guys Are Independent

Jay Z just sold his Rocawear clothesline for two hundred million dollars.

[bliss_eternal]

67. Yes. ...I agree with you.

He was possibly addressing the fact that Maya Angelou stated that rappers do the same thing that Imus did. She was right and so are you (in that the record labels deserve to lose their jobs or at least money from record revenue).

His need to defend his point by saying that the women they "rap" about "deserve" to be treated in such a way, with their lyrics is dispicable. It's the same thing as saying Rodney King deserved to be beaten within an inch of his life because he'd committed a crime, or that a rape victim deserves to be called a whore because she was dressed provacatively.

This blame the victim mentality pervades because we have a group of men that grew up thinking that street hustlers and thugs were role models. Then whey they obtained money, these are the things they celebrate--pimping out women for their bodies and treating them like trash.

[Katherine Brengle]

63. What a dizzlehead.

[renie408]

65. OH MY GOD!! That is the funniest thing I have read in DAYS!!

I have a friend here who actually happend to be from the hood and she is laughing her ass off.

[Canuckistanian]

68. Thank you, Mr. Dogg, for that erudite elucidation.

We now return you to the sane world.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. Is This Misogynistic Enough?

Under my thumb
The girl who once had me down
Under my thumb
The girl who once pushed me around

Its down to me
The difference in the clothes she wears
Down to me, the change has come,
Shes under my thumb

Aint it the truth babe?

Under my thumb
The squirmin dog whos just had her day
Under my thumb
A girl who has just changed her ways

Its down to me, yes it is
The way she does just what shes told
Down to me, the change has come
Shes under my thumb
Ah, ah, say its alright

Under my thumb
A siamese cat of a girl
Under my thumb
Shes the sweetest, hmmm, pet in the world

Its down to me
The way she talks when shes spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
Shes under my thumb
Ah, take it easy babe
Yeah

Its down to me, oh yeah
The way she talks when shes spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
Shes under my thumb
Yeah, it feels alright

Under my thumb
Her eyes are just kept to herself
Under my thumb, well i
I can still look at someone else

Its down to me, oh thats what I said
The way she talks when shes spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
Shes under my thumb
Say, its alright.

Say its all...
Say its all...

Take it easy babe
Take it easy babe
Feels alright
Take it, take it easy babe

[bliss_eternal]

76. Not quite...

...now find a woman to pour Crystal champagne or Old English beer over and it will be. :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. Rock Music Was Just As Chauvinistic And Misogynistic As Rap

eom

[bliss_eternal]

96. True...but it did vary.

Some of rock was--not all.
The MAJORITY of rap is misogynistic, chauvinistic and racist.

There are some exceptions, of course--but not as many exceptions as there are in rock.

[alcibiades_mystery]

116. Oh lord

:rofl:

Hip hop expert, I take it?

[bliss_eternal]

128. Guess what...?

I've got quite a collection of hip hop music in my collection. I can also direct you to some threads I've posted on these boards defending hip-hop to the uninformed (I've bookmarked them, and they are no longer on my journal). I've also had some fun discussions on these boards with other hip-hop fans, so save your sarcasm and snarkiness for someone else who perhaps doesn't know a damn thing about the genre of music.

But what you won't find in my collection is the music of those that choose regularly to make their music about "bitches, ho's" and the process of pimping them out. Expert? No. Fan of some old skool hip hop that actually spoke of women in a positive light? Yes.

You aren't talking to a woman that lumps all music together and makes broad generalizations on it based on a few. So your comments and snarkiness are wasted here. I'm a woman, but I'm also not ashamed to say I'm a feminist and enjoy music--some of that music happens to be hip-hop. What of it?

[alcibiades_mystery]

130. Good then

That separates you from 99% of the know-nothings droning on about hip hop. Congrats.

[bliss_eternal]

140. Then perhaps you could offer what you'd like to see...

Don't just assume that anyone that criticizes what you love doesn't know what they are talking about.
...and kindly don't assume such things, particularly because you see a woman criticize it.

It's not cool to assume.

[alcibiades_mystery]

150. Right

[MAGICBULLET]

170. it almost seems like

all of you bashing and bashing hip hop not once citing anything positive that comes out of it lyrically are closet racists as well. I guess this is your time to vent and show why you hate hearing black people express things that you just are too sensitive about hearing. the problem here is that if anyone steps up to defend rap artists we are now racists and sexists. happy to hate and conform to just googling "white girl" and "rap lyrics" and there you base your judgement. do me a favor, ask why record companty execs don't sign more artists like KRS-1, or maybe he's too revolutionary and racist for them, oh wait, maybe Public Enemy, oh but wait, Chuck D is not interested in what car is the nicest or what jewelry shines brighter. How about X-Clan? no way, way too afrocentric. I know who!! people try googling Immortal Technique...maybe that'll shut you up

[alcibiades_mystery]

193. You're nbot talking to me, right

Since I ain't (and would never) bash hip hop.

Rockin the Mos Def right now, matter of fact.

[MAGICBULLET]

201. talking to you

not at you. I just find it sad what people keep saying about hip hop, not knowing shit about what's really out there and constantly passing judgement. you know? and yea Mos Def...no one quotes him or do they? they should listen to "New World Water" and just shhhh for a minute

[alcibiades_mystery]

203. Indeed

...

[marmar]

191. Que? Clearly your knowledge of hip hop is quite limited....

Perhaps you should get to know more about the music before you offer a stereotyped thesis on it. There's plenty of rap that is neither of the above, it just doesn't get airplay. That statement reflects a great deal of ignorance about the art form.

[bliss_eternal]

206. Perhaps...

...before you respond this way, you should read further along in the thread. I state the exact same thing in this thread below. I seem to recall speaking WITH you in a thread about hip hop where we were BOTH defending it. :crazy:

So kindly, take the time to read before going on attack mode and telling people they don't know what they are talking about. Comments like this get very old, and defending myself when I already have is tiresome. I know plenty about the music, have followed the genre for years--which is one of the reasons why I prefer old skool to the stuff that gets airplay these days. I'm also well aware of a few notable exceptions that don't get airplay (have had discussions about hip-hop in the lounge, with other fans quite some time ago).

My saying majority does not equate to all. Clearly. And of course the majority I speak of is the stuff that gets the majority of the airplay--why would I complain about the work that doesn't denigrate women that no one hears? I also resent being called on my "taste" in music on a political board, yet no one has anything to say about the issue of misogyny within such music. :shrug:

[marmar]

229. Sorry....I should have read through it a couple of times before flying off at the keyboard...

I had a visceral reaction to your post and immediately responded, which is something I almost never do. (And generally, I stay away from these flamefest posts altogether). I very much see your point. :hi:

[Fleshdancer]

70. The best thing about the Imus situation.....

is that this country is FINALLY having this conversation.

As for Snoop, he sounds just as ridiculous as Imus. I see an Odd Couple remake in their future. :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. I Think Imus And Tim Hardaway Should Have Their Own Reality Show

eom

[Madspirit]

72. Oh God, Oh God

Whew...well, I might as well dive in now. I really didn't want to but I just have to.

I think anyone who has ever read anything I've written would have a hard time saying this 53 year old lesbian is not a feminist. Racism, feminism, gay rights, poverty, the war...these are my issues. I have been on just about every thread opposing the racism and sexism of Imus. I posted many threads of my own about the myth of reverse racism. I have posted many threads about my hatred of misogyny, sexism and homophobia.

All that said, I still have a really hard time with the whole idea of censoring art. I wouldn't want a Mapplethorpe hanging on my wall with a picture of someone's butt with a quirt sticking out of it. I definitely however, fought for Mapplethorpe's rights. In MY opinion, art is different than political speech. That doesn't mean I am going to run out and buy a Snoop DVD but it does mean I think the issues are being confused.

As a writer I want to write about my pain and my life on the streets. It will offend people but I want to write it the way I feel it. If I was a poet I would want to write my poetry as it is felt in my heart. It might be and probably would be, offensive to many but as an artist I would not want my art compromised in any way. It would come from my soul and my life experiences.

Imus is a rich white old man, not of the same culture or background or sex, as his victims. He wasn't expressing anything artful. He's a stupid radio talking head. He was just being a mean and racist and sexist old man. Snoop is expressing something. A life as he sees it. It is his art.

I cannot support censoring art. This is where we can hope consciousness raising by his mama and sisters and the women in his life will come into play. ...but this white woman is not going to tell a black artist what his experience has been. I also don't burn books.

Sorry to all this post disappoints.
Lee

[Evilismdestroyer07]

79. What the hell is REVERSE-RACISM

thats maybe the stupidest term Ive ever heard. Someone want to explain that. Pretty sure there is no such thing. Only Racism. The term seems to insinuate that Racism can only happen a certain direction? By a certain group... Care to explain yourself?

[Madspirit]

80. Go read the articles and threads

Before you fucking attack me while saying at the same fucking time you don't know what I'm talking about.
Lee

[Evilismdestroyer07]

90. The whole idea that

Racism can only be propagated by a certain group kind of ridiculous. Thats what I get from Reverse-Racism. You wont explain yourself... so how am I to know. If Im wrong correct me

[Madspirit]

100. You won't get it but here....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=619205&mesg_id=619205

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=611892

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=619300

[w13rd0]

86. Yes

Racism can only occur in one direction. It is the predisposition of those who have power to exclude, discriminate and disparage those who are not like them.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mainegreen]

236. rac·ism (noun)

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

What you pointed out falls under the umbrella of racism, but it is not the only scenario of racism.

[timeless12]

131. So what you are saying is

because Don Imus is a rich white man he is not allowed to say whatever dumb ass thing comes into his head on HIS television show which people can turn off...but music videos that are degrading to women of ALL races can be on the same airwaves and should be given the OK because they star rich black men and are "art forms. Give me a break. That is very close minded. As a young white women I am HORRIBLY offended by the music videos that I see on MTV and espesically BET...but apparently as long as it is played along with a song that labels me a "ho" "bitch" "slut", etc etc, it is OK...oh and as long as it is done by a black man and not a white man. I don't think so.

[maxsolomon]

75. personally, I think Snoop is hilarious.

i own one album: doggystyle. i bought it used on vinyl.

i have to say, there's an awful lot of non-rap fans weighing in on Snoop here.

perhaps Snoop really isn't bright enough to understand that his, and other rapper's, popularization of the terms "ho" & "bitch" has (partially) legitimized their use by whites. he may be talking about neighborhood girls from Long Beach trying to hook up with successful men, but his words are popular with MILLIONS of white people. myself included. i can sing entire verses off that album.

[Fleshdancer]

78. Out of curiosity, what word does he use for....

...successful men who try to hook up with neighborhood girls from Long Beach?

[maxsolomon]

83. Players. he doesn't understand Irony very well.

let me quote:

"N****z be brown nosin' these hos - spendin' money, takin' bitches out to eat. I treat a bitch like 7up: never had it, never will. I tell a bitch like this: 'bitch, you without me is like Harold Melvin without the Bluenotes. you'll never go platinum'."

ah, 1993.

[joe_sixpack]

202. Wow

that is some artistic shit right there. It really moved me.

[maxsolomon]

256. epater les bourgeois

notoriety makes money, too.

i've heard worse in rap. specifically from ice cube, now the star of hollywood family fare.

[postulater]

77. How does he know Imus f**ks his mutha?

[Neshanic]

81. Well, it seems we have a RED flag PC violation. Hate speech.

[w13rd0]

82. I'll remind you all that...

...since rap came about, there have always been artists that tried to "take it to another level" and address more cerebral issues. But that doesn't sell records, or so they are told. Just ask every 80s glam metal band that sang about sleeping with underage girls, because every one of those bands had at least one of those songs.

No, but we can take a swatch of the rap culture and say, "Look, here, violent women-hating black men!" Never mind that the record industry in this nation has ALWAYS promoted the banal over the cerebral, the mundane over the meaningful.

And just where in the hell did all you people so willing to spout right-wing talking points come from? And why has this MEANINGLESS BULLSHIT taken over this board?

Imus sat with powerful men, despite having a years-long history of saying stupid, hateful, bigotted things. It caught up with him. Now move the fuck on, because free speech isn't dead, and you should be using your energy fighting for more important things, like health care and education for your children, and against an Executive Branch that is positively CRIMINAL in its misdeeds.

I'm just going to assume from this point forward that those that start multiple threads spouting these right-wing canards are trolls and ignore those posters summarily and in perpetuity.

[Neshanic]

87. Many PC violations in your post...please rewrite.

[Evilismdestroyer07]

94. You gonna explain

Reverse-Racism. Im still curious to know what that is.

[Neshanic]

158. No, content and stereotyping. Swear words.

[debbierlus]

85. He is a complete pig

Him & his stupid 'Girls Gone Wild' videos

[MedleyMisty]

92. I like Jay-z's 99 Problems

And yes, the refrain is "I got ninety nine problems but a bitch ain't one."

But then the rest of the song talks about things like being pulled over and going to jail and having to pay a higher bail because he's black.

I thought it was a comment about hip-hop artists who have sold out and rap about bitches, etc, instead of real social issues. I don't really like the line "not a ho in the sense of having a pussy" but I can deal with it for the message of the rest of the song.

I do like the socially conscious stuff. I don't listen to the really misogynist stuff, but what are we supposed to do about it? With Imus, people could threaten to boycott the advertisers. With music artists - all you can do is not buy their CDs. If lots of other people do buy their CDs and go to their concerts and they make money, they aren't going to go anywhere. That doesn't mean that you have to accept it or support it or that you aren't free to speak out against it. Just that it's not easy to just make them go away.

Aren't like 70% of rap consumers white (with some caveats - http://www.urbannetwork.com/cms/index.php?news=149), meaning that you'd have to convince mostly white people to stop buying misogynist music?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that at bottom I think this boils down to an "It's okay because the other side does it too!" apology for racism. What rappers say or don't say has nothing to do with what Imus said and does not excuse it. To make a sort of analogy - would it be okay for Keith Olbermann to call Bush a faggot just because Coulter called Kerry a faggot?

I've got no problem with truly condemning the prejudice shown by both. It's using one as the excuse for the other that turns my prejudice detector on.

[timeless12]

111. ...

I think the bigger issue is why is everyone so concerned with watching what white men say on TV, and not the racism and sexism that I see everyday on TV coming from every race and sex.

If people were so worried about racism and sexism then they should take MTV and BET off the air for good.

[davepc]

93. 'Back up Ho' is just a social commentary about the status of gender relations today

It's six am she won't pay him but she will pay me
OG baby, baby on bullshit most of the time
Hoes did it fine, ain't she's like Ginuwine
I ain't got time to be messing around
Let's hit the hotel and straight put it down
You do me and I do you back
That's how a pimp player do it like that
I met you at the club so it couldn't be love
Come to find out you the motherfucker scrub on the dub
And now you wanna get in my tub and get a back scrub
With Snoop d-o-dub?
Hold on, put your clothes on, bitch you ain't bout to get your doughs on
Go in the kitchen and hook me up something to eat
And put the TV on BET
And toss me a LA Times and roll one of them dimes
And make sure the radio works
And get me some orange juice with the ice in a cup
I know I'm the man damn but I'm a motherfuckin pimp and I don't give a fuck
And when I wake up in the morning, bitch you know what's up


When I wake up in the morning
You give me breakfast in my bed
And when I need a little loving
You know you're quick to give me head
You're the sweetest hoe I know
And I'll never let you go
Ooh ooh (ooh ooh)
You gon be my back up hoe
Ooh ooh (ooh ooh)
You gon be my back up hoe

genious

[Neshanic]

95. This is overly offensive on many levels.

[Evilismdestroyer07]

97. Whoa hey....

Its ok for Snoop to be degrading to black women becuase hes not a old white man... Let me just jump on the band wagon of inteluctual inconsistincy.

Oh hes soooooo Artsy.

[mzmolly]

161. Indeed "artsy."

Dare you critique an artiste' on a progressive discussion board.

Welcome.

[mzmolly]

159. Genius not genious.

But, genius? This is a progressive discussion board, no? I feel like I'm in a friggen episode of the twilight zone.

[orpupilofnature57]

98. People in a group or in the street can say whatever they want...

... Word smiths have a responsibility for their words, especially if they spew to the air where all can hear.

[Neshanic]

99. NObody can say whatever they want. There are consequences for all hate speech.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Madspirit]

171. Not a guy

...and I did give you links to the posts about the MYTH of reverse racism. Do I have to read them to you also?
Lee

[orpupilofnature57]

263. Not if your $$$$$$$ productive.

[phrenzy]

101. Snoop, Oh, Snoop...

While I totally understand what he's saying - I have to say it IS ironic that he's given us such gems as

"Bitches ain't shit but hos and tricks"

and

"It ain't no FUUUUUUUN - if the homies can't HAAAAVVE none!"

I'm sure the few rap fans that are posting on this thread get the same bemusement from the reactions of people who clearly don't like/understand/listen to rap in the first place.

Not that the opinions are not valid, but Rap (at least Snoop's genre) is similar to punk - the more it pisses you off the more amused they are.

[Neshanic]

107. We do understand. He is a bigot and hates women and gays.

[Robson]

134. Why do they get any credibility as an artform?

Someone tell how they get credibility as a "artform" when they are as blatantly racist as the white racist music?

Help, I need some rationale here. And no the answer is not that rap is hipper than racist white trash rock.

[MAGICBULLET]

197. read and learn - and investigate before opening your mouth

The voice of racism preaching the gospel is devilish
A fake church called the prophet Muhammad a terrorist
Forgetting God is not a religion, but a spiritual bond
And Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Qu'ran
They bombed innocent people, tryin' to murder Saddam
When you gave him those chemical weapons to go to war with Iran
This is the information that they hold back from Peter Jennings
Cause Condoleeza Rice is just a new age Sally Hemmings
I break it down with critical language and spiritual anguish
The Judas I hang with, the guilt of betraying Christ
You murdered and stole his religion, and painting him white
Translated in psychologically tainted philosophy
Conservative political right wing, ideology
Glued together sloppily, the blasphemy of a nation
Got my back to the wall, cause I'm facin' assassination
Guantanamo Bay, federal incarceration
How could this be, the land of the free, home of the brave?
Indigenous holocaust, and the home of the slaves
Corporate America, dancin' offbeat to the rhythm
You really think this country, never sponsored terrorism?
Human rights violations, we continue the saga
El Savador and the contras in Nicaragua
And on top of that, you still wanna take me to prison
Just cause I won't trade humanity for patriotism

It's like MK-ULTRA, controlling your brain
Suggestive thinking, causing your perspective to change
They wanna rearrange the whole point of view of the ghetto
The fourth branch of the government, want us to settle
A bandana full of glittering, generality
Fighting for freedom and fighting terror, but what's reality?
Read about the history of the place that we live in
And stop letting corporate news tell lies to your children

Flow like the blood of Abraham through the Jews and the Arabs
Broken apart like a woman's heart, abused in a marriage
The brink of holy war, bottled up, like a miscarriage
Embedded correspondents don't tell the source of the tension
And they refuse to even mention, European intervention
Or the massacres in Jenin, the innocent screams
U.S. manufactured missles, and M-16's
Weapon contracts and corrupted American dreams
Media censorship, blocking out the video screens
A continent of oil kingdoms, bought for a bargain
Democracy is just a word, when the people are starvin'
The average citizen, made to be, blind to the reason
A desert full of genocide, where the bodies are freezin'
And the world doesn't believe that you fightin' for freedom
Cause you fucked the Middle East, and gave birth to a demon
It's open season with the CIA, bugging my crib
Trapped in a ghetto region like a Palestinian kid
Where nobody gives a fuck whether you die or you live
I'm tryin' to give the truth, and I know the price is my life
But when I'm gone they'll sing a song about Immortal Technique
Who beheaded the President, and the princes and sheiks
You don't give a fuck about us, I can see through your facade
Like a fallen angel standing in the presence of God
Bitch niggaz scared of the truth, when it looks at you hard

It's like MK-ULTRA, controlling your brain
Suggestive thinking, causing your perspective to change
They wanna rearrange the whole point of view in the ghetto
The fourth branch of the government, want us to settle
A bandana full of glittering, generality
Fighting for freedom and fighting terror, but what's reality?
Martial law is coming soon to the hood, to kill you
While you hanging your flag out your project window

[w13rd0]

233. Immortal Technique?

sorry if the spelling is wrong...

you didn't credit, so I'm guessing

[MAGICBULLET]

257. yes Immortal Technique

sorry I didn't credit. I'm not too crazy about the guntalk lyrics he has either but I don't get too critical about it b/c I don't take it literally, many people do. I see those as a metaphor to battling other MCs. It's just something you either like or you don't but shouldn't be scrutinized so much more than any other artistic medium, say like any of Robert Rodriguez's last few films or Tarantino.

[jollyreaper2112]

244. yup, that's technique

I like his political stuff but then he goes gangbanging like the dumbest of the flock. It's beneath him. "Cross the line, nigga, wouldn't want to be ya, put the tool to ya chest" etc etc etc.

[Bluerthanblue]

103. I have never 'employed' him, in ANY way- Imus

on the other hand, was paid indirectly by "me"- through corporations who paid money to advertise their products on the station that attempted to draw my attention to their products through Imus' words.

I don't buy Snoop's albums, wouldn't play his music if it was given to me- or attend one of his concerts.

People who have 'skin in the game' to use a popular phrase- have a slightly different perspective. That doesn't mean I endorse Hip-Hop or Rap "artists" who use revolting, demeaning language to describe women- who devalue a person based on their lack of a penis- But it is wrong on a different but equally offensive level.

[Raine]

105. "(Rappers) are not talking about no collegiate basketball girls

who have made it to the next level in education and sports." No, they aren't, they are talking about their mothers and all the other women in their lives that might be poor and live in the "hood" but I guess that makes it different. :sarcasm: :mad:

[timeless12]

113. Not to mention

the rappers that frequently refrence their "white ho" or their "white bitch" in their "songs".

[Warren Stupidity]

106. He should lose his nationally syndicated talk show NOW!

Oh wait, he doesn't have one. He makes movies (bad movies) attends events and used to make hip hop records and maybe still does. I'm not sure he can be dropped by his sponsors for any of those things. Wait again, wasn't there a big stink about his showing up in some car ad - ah yes Chrysler and indeed there was a big old stink about the dogg and it sort of went nowhere.

[timeless12]

109. Time for a reality check Snoop

Ok, first of all any person who looks to someone who calls themselves "Snoop Doggy Dog" for political, moral and ethical advice, should just crawl into a deep dark hole and stay there. A side from the whole Imus ordeal, this man is self riotous prick...but obviously that doesn't matter because he is representing the "black community". Sorry, but although I am a white woman, I don't want any pot headed, gangster asshole representing my "community". You don't see Don Imus getting on the air and saying:

"Well, white men should be allowed to say whatever the fuck they feel like because well, it comes from our soul..."

Clearly calling those girls nappy headed hos came from his soul as he had so hesitation ...

As a white women I do not appreciate songs with lyrics such as:

"u already know they eat nuts like a squirrel
lemme hit u in ur head n bust nuts in ur curl white girl"

"sayin imma go to jail fuckin with that white bitch
always around to keep me paid
with some white girls on my team i got it made
so if ur down on ur luck n got no money
then do what i do go get u a snow bunny"

(e-40's "White Gurl", a song played on the radio")

Lets see big headed Al Sharpton get on TV and talk about that one.

If there is going to be a standard of conduct regarding racial relations on the airwaves, then it should apply to EVERYONE...not just when a black person is offended.

[Robson]

110. Where's Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson on this? They are out getting whitey.

Both Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are self serving hypocrits that represent far more of the problem than the solution to the black community. They thrive on a black community that is portrayed as the perpetual victim as that gives them relative power. Time has passed these two losers by. I really don't like Imus, Sharpton or Jackson one iota. Jackson is the only individual seen on major media that makes George Bush's diction and speaking ability look good. Sharpton has demonstrated more than his share of racism.

My view is that Imus deserved to grovel and then make things right, but not be fired over this.

Both Sharpton and Jackson are now strutting around like banty roosters because they think that they had a powerful white man fired, when in fact it was Imus's continued harping on the Jews of CBS and MSNBC that got him fired.

[Neshanic]

112. Very unPC statements. Please consider rewrite.

[timeless12]

115. not really..

So now apparently potical correctness only applies when speaking of someone of the "white race".

On top of your comment, I think the bigger issue is...why is there a "black community" as if all african americans come from the same though process as big headed al sharpton or jesse jackson. God forbid if people starting saying the "white community" on a regular basis...might as well say "KKK".

[Madspirit]

121. Whoohoo...another one

...just like the other one. There are Republican forums. Would you like the links? I can google them for you.
Lee

[Robson]

120. How about these rap lyrics?

I could have used these rap lyrics from a Grammy award winner that seem to get a pass.

“Kill the white people; we gonna make them hurt; kill the white people; but buy my record first; ha, ha, ha”

“Kill d’White People”; Apache, Apache Ain’t Shit, 1993, Tommy Boy Music, Time Warner, USA.


http://www.amren.com/rap/rap1.htm

Sorry folks......I find any double standard of racism and derogatory use of the English language abominable. I can't imagine some country singer using such "folk" lyrics can you?

[Neshanic]

122. See post "you" below...explained for you...

[Madspirit]

124. Poor

Poor poor little ivory skinned man. It must be tough in this world being a straight white man. I know you suffer greatly. *snort*
Lee

[timeless12]

136. Yesss

Thank you! I agree with your point completely!! The rap community should be allowed to say whatever they want because well...they are black and are the minority. HANG DON IMUS!!! THE STUPID WHITE PIG!

Racism is bullshit no matter who it comes from...black white fucking purple...I don't give a shit.

If you are going to condem the Imus...then condem other pig headed sexists out there...not just the white ones. That is the point.

[Madspirit]

152. ...and my point

Art is different than political speech. I also don't burn books.
Lee

[timeless12]

155. But

Ok, but how do you determine what is art and what is political speech. Like it or not, news, talk radio, etc is a form of entertainment. What big headed Don Imus says on MSNBC or the radio is a form of entertainment and has no effect on our government or politicans.

Where is the line drawn there? Like I said in another post, I don't want to be called a ho by Don Imus, a black guy singing on a track with girls in thongs dancing around him, \ or my damned neighbor. It is just not acceptable anywhere...so how do you decide what on TV is art and what is "political". Last time I checked nothing about a show where a guy with bad hair sat around and made fun of everyone was political. That is like saying Donald Trump can get on CNN and suddenly his show was a vehicle for political influence.

[Madspirit]

157. Oh go burn a book....stomp on a DVD....whatever...n/t

[timeless12]

162. Right on

Being the closed minded, lack of humor having, person that you seem to be...let me explain my point...

I think censorship is bullshit. So then Don Imus should be able to say whatever the hell he wants to if Snoop Doggy Dogg and his counterparts can.

Thank you for making my point though, I appreciate it.

[Madspirit]

166. No ONE

No one has said Imus cannot say whatever he wants. We've simply said we will not support his sponsors if they keep him. Ergo, they dumped him. It's called being fired. Happens to people every damned day.

Don't buy Snoop's stuff if you don't like it.
Lee

[timeless12]

169. Actually

I happen to listen to rap everyday...love it.

I was just making a point.

Snoop Dogg is a funny character. Just like Don Imus. Don Imus was MSNBC's south park...may the memory of his archie bunker self live on...

[Madspirit]

117. You

You're a straight-up racist. Not even subtle.

Your use of the word "whitey" to say that's what Sharpton and Jackson are up to...getting "whitey". Saying they are just glad they got a powerful white man fired and implying that is the only thing they are about. Talking about Jews that way.

I hope you are only here temporarily. This is mainly a progressive board. Would you like a link to Ann Coulter's site? I will google it for you.
Lee

[timeless12]

126. No.

I am pretty sure the point of the post was to say that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are jack asses and don't deserve to represent the "Black Community"...just because a person doesnt like two african americans does not mean that they are a racist...

and I am pretty sure I detected a hint of sarcasm in the use of "Whitey"

[Madspirit]

127. Yawn

I hope your stay is short.
Lee

[timeless12]

133. ok?

Because clearly there should be no sarcasm or opposing point of views on a democratic message bored when it comes to the pillars of excellence and role models for african americans everywhere...AL SHARPTON AND JESSE JACKSON? Please, give me a break.

[Robson]

180. Welcome

You appear to be an independent thinker, able to offer debate and dialogue. Welcome to DU.

[timeless12]

192. Why thank you.

I came here hoping to find some people open minded to debate from angles other than their own. Apparently you can't find much of that anymore...even on a supposedly liberal message bored. Sigh.

[Fran Kubelik]

137. Holy crap, do you realize how you sound?

Getting whitey? The Jews of CBS and MSNBC?

:eyes:

[Robson]

146. Yes but

The only thing I depise more than blatant racism are the use of double standards to promote another form of racism and agendas.

[mzmolly]

199. BOTH men have spoken about this issue, and I would bet we'll hear from them on THIS tomorrow.

eom

[2bfree]

123. I for one will boycott him.

:) I can't stand hip-hop music.

[minkyboodle]

129. what did Tim Russert say in response?

Or was Snoop talking to John McCain, or John Kerry, or Rudy Giuliani
or most of the White House Press Corps or Joe Loserman or Joe Biden?
And how did the millions of viewers listening to him on the public
airwaves or a supposed serious news channel react to this? Get
back to me on that.... :eyes: apples to oranges.

Also did Imus pull you or a relative out of a burning building in the past or something?

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

141. That pretty much sums it all up.

:thumbsup:

[timeless12]

145. I'm pretty sure no one here is rallying for Imus...

He is a jerk...that is obvious. The point is what is acceptable and what is not...why is Imus getting burned at the stake for saying "Nappy Headed", yet there was no threat with the jokes on jews and every other group on the book.

He is a hateful dick...but there is freedom of speech and if snoop dogg can call me a "ho" then why can't Don Imus?

Oh, I forgot, Snoop is an artist and Don Imus is a talking head...MY BAD.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

209. Wrong

Imus and his band of racist assholes have the right to say what ever they want. They have no right to earn a living saying those things over the public airwaves. It has been said many times before, but bears repeating, the First Amendment does NOT guarantee anybody the right to be on the radio.


This "generic rapper/comedian X can say these things, but Imus can't" talking point has worn itself out by now.

[minkyboodle]

211. don't sweat it too much

That talking point "but Chappelle said it" is so tired and ridiculous.
Those who believe it will defend it no matter what. They basically ignore any
point that shows the difference between a Snoop Dog video and a mass market
radio/tv show sanctioned by those who are supposedly the arbiters of our
political discourse. Its a tired but an all too frequent talking point on
DU these days. I think Imus has a secret pay off network or something :)

[timeless12]

212. once again

Don Imus is an asshole. No questions asked. Personally, I could give two shits about him getting kicked off the air. I will only miss how he ripped on EVERYONE...not any specific group. The world needs less of this "oh no, we cant hear this". He is being used as an example and it is just stupid.

And Chappelle is making fun of those people...BTW.

[minkyboodle]

218. really

I missed it when Chappelle singled out an over achieving woman's basketball team
full of all American athletes and students and derided them solely for the sake of
cruelty.. guess I'll just have to take your word for it.

[timeless12]

220. uh no

I'm pretty sure my point was that no one is comparing Chapelle to Imus because Chappelle is a comedian...who is making fun of black and white people...unlike snoop who is just degrading. The close mindedness of the far left wing amazes me everyday.

[minkyboodle]

223. far left wing

Keep on using those key words. You have no idea my views on any other
issue than the one we are discussing. Apparently thats enough to classify
me and many others in this thread as "far left wing"

[mzmolly]

216. Imus isn't influencing our youth.

I'm not defending him, but I find the outrage absurd unless it extends to all who denigrate women and people of color.

[timeless12]

217. agreed 100% no matter the forum

[minkyboodle]

227. I don't disagree MzMolly

I think exploring the bad influence that the state of hip hop has
on youth today is a valid issue worth tons of exploration. In my mind
it is a problem of the change in the music industry in the last 10 years
or so. The hip hop world has a product model and those in charge keep
marketting it over and over again, and its horrible (for music as well). Whether its woman
hating, violence, lust for money etc. My only point is that I don't think
that this issue is related to the Imus discussion. I don't think those
that blame Imus' words somehow on rap are being real or productive. We
can deal with both issues without using Snoop Dog to excuse one angry
cowboy hat wearing asshole whom I'm pretty sure doesn't bang Snoop or TI
on his radio. Thats my POV.

[timeless12]

228. Ok

But no one is blaming rap for Imus's biggot words...I think the point is how do you go about creating a level playing field if you don't look at all aspects of the media/entertainment where these issues arise.

[mzmolly]

230. Fully understood and respected.

Thanks for the response. :hi:

[Rosemary2205]

142. For the record

I don't support gangsta rap, I'd like to see them stop demeaning women, any women. I don't support their record labels. I don't support any TV channels or radio stations that play them or show them. If a product I use decided to support them then I would change products and let my voice be heard.

That said, Imus is still a bigot and although I think he deserved what he got, I do think sending him to ongoing intensive diversity training to teach him how harmful those kinds of comments are to our society would have been more useful. I would have liked to see CBS require him to give civil rights activists and diversity advocates a major voice on his show on a daily basis.

[Robson]

148. Agreed

For the record I don't care if I ever watch Imus on TV or listen to him on the radio. I agree with your post though.

He probably could have done far more good for the Rutgers basketball program and diversity had he been left to use his means. Cutting him off at the knees only creates animosity on all sides of the issue, and gives Sharpton and Jackson credibility that they really don't deserve.

[Rosemary2205]

154. I totally disagree with you on Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

Obviously they don't speak for every african-american in this country. They only speak for themselves and I certainly have not always agreed with either one of them (sometimes I do, sometimes I don't). But IMHO they have absolutely earned the credibility and right to hold a major public stage. They, more times than not, do quite a lot of good bringing attention to the powerless who need an advocate against the powerful.

[timeless12]

160. How?

All I can say is...

towanda bradley

and http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/01/18/jackson.child.02/

And actually these men pro porte to be representing the "black community". Watch any interview. They are always yelping about "THE BLACK COMMUNITY WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS". Please tell me...who the fuck is the black community and when did all the african americans start having the same opinions about everything??

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rosemary2205]

165. Perhaps

someday















maybe


























you'll buy a clue.

[timeless12]

173. Keep me in your prayers?

[Madspirit]

178. No.

I guess you were talking to Rosemary but just in case you ask me to keep you in my prayers, I'm an atheist. There are many of us here.
Lee

[timeless12]

183. Cool beans

An atheist...without a hint of sacrasm.

I am sorry if I offended you with the word "prayers"

WOW.

[americanstranger]

190. Towanda Bradley????

BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAAHAAAHA!

Geez, at least get her name right.

- as

[timeless12]

196. Brawley my bad...

Just another insignificant Al Sharpton campaign.

[Robson]

222. Instead of Sharpton/ Jackson it should be Jason Whitlock & others doing the talking

CNN Anderson Cooper had Jason Whitlock (a columnist) and an attractive female black pundit (sorry name escapes me) on tonight who made a lot of sense with the Imus and race issue, and imho more than Al Sharpton and Jackson. That is only my opinion.

[timeless12]

225. I missed that

I think Al Sharptons case just went downhill when he said "Would you call my daughter a nappy headed ho???"

Give me a break. Typical.

[erpowers]

255. Jason Whitlock Makes No Sense

I watched Whitlock this morning on the Today Show. All he did was bash Sharpton and Jackson and say we should not be angry. I am not a fan of either Sharpton or Jackson, but they should not be blamed for this in that they are not the people who made the hateful comments. In addition, I think Whitlock make some inaccurate comments. Whitlock claimed that the Rutger's team was claiming their whole season was distroyed by Imus' comments. I do not recall any of the women associated with the Rutger's team claiming their whole season was distroyed by this. As far as I know they just said their moment in the sunlight was taken away from them.

I would like to know when black people have a right to get angry about things said about them. Why should a group of mostly black girls not be upset that a guy who did not know them would choose to say something so terrible about them? What is so wrong with black people being angry about this?

[LibraLiz1973]

262. I thought Whitlock was brilliant

And I love him even more this morning when he took Al Sharpton on - also on CNN

[mzmolly]

149. "We're talking about hoes that's in the 'hood that ain't doing shit,"

And people here defend this shit.

[timeless12]

153. Amen

[mzmolly]

163. Welcome.

I feel I'm in bizarro world today. :hi:

[timeless12]

167. I know, right.

Some people just don't get the whole deal of if you want an equal racial playing field, then it has to go ALL THE WAY AROUND...YIKES.

Oh well...

[ComerPerro]

168. good lord, Imus fans are petty, bitter people

[timeless12]

172. nope

Mostly just people who enjoyed waking up and listening to people get new asses on a daily basis regardless of who they were. But now good old Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson did exactly what the world needed...making it boring, bland...dare I say...beige.

[ComerPerro]

175. "fire him" "fire her" "fire him" "fire him" "what about..."

[timeless12]

177. HOW ABOUT

FIRE NOBODY.

He said "Nappy Headed"...booo fucking hooo. The guys an asshole...how about what should of happened was he said "Oops my bad...sorry...over the line" and went to sleep on it. But no...Al Sharpton had to freak out and whine over it when instead he could having been fighting poverty or spreading AIDS awareness or something that would really benefit this community that he goes on about.

[ComerPerro]

179. like Howard Stern's firing, this was a long time coming

[Madspirit]

181. I was outraged

Before I even read Al or Jessie's take on this, the BLACK men you seem to really really hate.
Lee

[timeless12]

186. Really

Outraged?

Cause every single black person I have spoken to over this laughed and said..."Who the fuck is Don Imus and...oh well I could give a shit".

And btw...the girls on the actual team didnt seem too outraged...maybe the coach who spoke for about...an hour about her outrage...yay for media attention.

[minkyboodle]

215. wow

you really are one of the most transparent DU interlopers
to come firing fist first into this issue. Apparently it was
the evil coach stirring up all the trouble. The girls were
fine according to your expert analysis. Enjoy your stay,
yay for idiotic comments like yours.

[timeless12]

219. Not exactly

I'm sorry I don't conform to what your image of a DU poster should be.

I think the biggest issue here is that this issue has been blown WAY out of popportion to a point that these young girls lives are effected. They are college students and as a college student I couldn't imagine having to deal with the stress that all of this media attention must be causing them, all while getting ready to go into finals! Think about it people. If this issue would have been handled at the network it would be benefited these girls more...but instead they are being made to look like Joan of Arc or something, when really they seem like they just want to get to their classes and celebrate how far they came.

[minkyboodle]

221. please

"And btw...the girls on the actual team didnt seem too outraged...maybe the coach who spoke for about...an hour about her outrage...yay for media attention."

stop trying to weasel your way out of your own words. You really think they don't support their coach, that they are being dragged along as unwilling pawns by that evil media attention hungry coach. Give me a fucking break

[timeless12]

224. Once again...

I feel no need to weasel my way out of my words...I didn't contradict myself.

I am pretty sure what I meant was that the girls did not seem as outraged as their coach who went on for however long and would not stop talking.

If everyone really cared about these girls so much, then they would leave them the fuck alone and let them go be college students.

So no, I am not pretty sure...I am very sure that is the point I was making.

Interpret however you choose...

[Madspirit]

176. ComerPerro is RIGHT!! n/t

[Madspirit]

174. ART!!! ART!!!

I am just re-posting my post...because I like it. ...and because I think it is important. I lived in an era when books were banned..."The Catcher in the Rye" comes to mind. Art is different than political speech. ...AND no one said Imus cannot say what he wants. We said we are not supporting his sponsors if he does and ergo he was canned. It happens every damned day to people. He can still say any obnoxious thing he wants.

I absolutely do not put art in that category. Sorry. I've lived when books were banned, when music was censored...BUT you still don't have to buy a Snoop DVD. Here's my post again. : P


Whew...well, I might as well dive in now. I really didn't want to but I just have to.

I think anyone who has ever read anything I've written would have a hard time saying this 53 year old lesbian is not a feminist. Racism, feminism, gay rights, poverty, the war...these are my issues. I have been on just about every thread opposing the racism and sexism of Imus. I posted many threads of my own about the myth of reverse racism. I have posted many threads about my hatred of misogyny, sexism and homophobia.

All that said, I still have a really hard time with the whole idea of censoring art. I wouldn't want a Mapplethorpe hanging on my wall with a picture of someone's butt with a quirt sticking out of it. I definitely however, fought for Mapplethorpe's rights. In MY opinion, art is different than political speech. That doesn't mean I am going to run out and buy a Snoop DVD but it does mean I think the issues are being confused.

As a writer I want to write about my pain and my life on the streets. It will offend people but I want to write it the way I feel it. If I was a poet I would want to write my poetry as it is felt in my heart. It might be and probably would be, offensive to many but as an artist I would not want my art compromised in any way. It would come from my soul and my life experiences.

Imus is a rich white old man, not of the same culture or background or sex, as his victims. He wasn't expressing anything artful. He's a stupid radio talking head. He was just being a mean and racist and sexist old man. Snoop is expressing something. A life as he sees it. It is his art.

I cannot support censoring art. This is where we can hope consciousness raising by his mama and sisters and the women in his life will come into play. ...but this white woman is not going to tell a black artist what his experience has been. I also don't burn books.

Sorry to all this post disappoints.
Lee

[mzmolly]

182. Lee, couldn't Imus have classified his skill as "ART?"

Sorry, I can't defend an "artist" who thrives on denigrating women.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0112/p11s01-almp.html

[Madspirit]

189. I don't think so

I think political speech is different than art. I never said I like Snoop, in case anyone noticed. I don't like Mapplethorpe either...ewwww...

...but when I write my book or I write my poetry I want it to reflect MY life and there will be people offended.

I was alive when The Catcher in the Rye was banned and when even songs like The Eve of Destruction were banned. I just can't get behind censoring art.

That doesn't mean I am inviting Snoop over for some tea. It doesn't mean I condone his lyrics. It doesn't mean I like him. I think rap is actually important though...from a psychological, sociological and anthropological standpoint. I am not a black man. I am a white woman and a lesbian but I have lived in dire poverty and I have lived on the streets, for YEARS at a time. Some things just aren't pretty. His art reflects that.
Lee

[timeless12]

194. Ok

SOOOO what I am getting from what you are saying is that because you are a lesbian who have lived on the streets you can relate to snoop dogg and his woman bashing lyrics. I am glad you relate to it. I relate to some of the shit he says in certain ways. I don't think that is an excuse for favoring him because he is "art" and Imus is "politics". Like i said before...if donald trump got on CNN that wouldn't make him political...it would make him just another asshole with a microphone there to entertain the masses...until he hurts Al Sharptons feelings of course.

[Madspirit]

207. Yeah right!

I really relate to his woman bashing. I am a survivor of severe abuse. What a totally asinine thing to say. You are out of my life and I expect you will be out of here...soon. You are now on Ignore. Whoohoohoo
Lee

[mzmolly]

195. Sorry, I think is art reflects his view of women.

I don't wish to burn CD's, but I do wish we'd hold people accountable for their words as Oprah did when Ludacris appeared on her show.

I too grew up in poverty, and I see how the music of someone like Snoopdog, Eminem effects women who live in poverty most of all.

I'd like to note for the record, RAP music is not alone in this: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-0139(199821)51%3A1%3C148%3ARWTDPG%3E2.0.CO%3B2-3

[Madspirit]

205. I

I like you a lot. I love your posts. I like how we discussed this. It's much different than how Timeless discusses this. I see your point but we will have to just not agree about this.
Lee

[mzmolly]

213. I can accept that.

I like you and your posts as well. Thank you for rational discussion also. :hi:

[bigwillq]

185. I really liked your post.

Basically sums up how I feel.


Good job.

:hi:

[Madspirit]

204. Thanks!.

I appreciate it.

Lee *waving back*

[nam78_two]

184. Huh-how do I "boycott" something I don't buy?

I am not aware of it if Snoop Dogg has a show on MSNBC, CBS, CNN etc. from where he spouts this crap.

There are lots of things in the entertainment industry or for that matter publishing industry I find offensive.I don't buy them.
I don't buy Ann Coulter's books or Rush's DVDs for that reason. But, I am not going to push for people to burn their books or drum them out of town, the way the Bush-supporters dealt with the Dixie Chicks.

I don't see a similarity here. Its not "supporting" Snoop to not go out and set his records on fire or whatever, because short of that I don't see what one could do to some random person in the entertainment industry, whose stuff I don't buy anyway. Are you also planning on doing something about at least 70% of the advertising industry? Beer commercials? Axe ads? Exploitative Hollywood movies? I dislike the misogyny I see in a lot of these industries, but like I said, I don't see what I can do about it? Its not really comparable to the Imus situation.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

226. Uh.... no.

I, along with millions of others, will continue to buy Snoop records.

[Madspirit]

231. More Truth

a.) I hate the misogyny of Rap. I do however think the social issues involved in The Phenomena are more complex than the Imus issue. I think Imus is just a great big ol' white man ugly-assed racist sexist Pig with no complex mitigating social circumstances to even slightly justify his toxic personality. His big Issue is White Straight Rich Man Entitlement. That doesn't mean I think misogyny in rap music is OK. I love that Maya Angelou addressed it. I doubt she would support censorship.

b.) I think Art HAS to be held to different standards because it is SUPPOSED to represent the ugly and the gritty. Censorship of Art is a blight.

Imus is actually supposed to be discussing social issues, not promoting racism and sexism.

c.) I find the majority of the posts on this thread are by people being TOTALLY disingenuous hypocrites. If you will notice, a good number of the people on this thread condemning Snoop, under the feigned outrage over misogyny are the exact same people...go check the IDs...who are defending Imus on other threads. Ergo, I think a lot of the posts on this thread are just the embittered Imus defenders and backasswards way to continue their racism.

Lee

[Neshanic]

247. Your post is highly unPC.

[dogday]

260. Here, use this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=646952&mesg_id=646952

[mzmolly]

259. I'm going to post a quote from the Coach at Rutgers Vivian Stringer:

"These comments are indicative of greater ills in our culture," Stringer said. "It is not just Mr. Imus, and we hope that this will be and serve as a catalyst for change. Let us continue to work hard together to make this world a better place."

I'm sure we all agree.

:hug:

[Bridget Burke]

240. Is Snoop Dogg going to lose his show on CBS?

Oh. He doesn't have one.

Want me to burn my Snoop Dogg CD's in protest? Don't have any....

[erpowers]

248. What About Your White Friends

I do not like Snoop's music and do not buy his music. I do not listen to much of his music. I do like the song he has called "Drop it Like its Hot". However, Snoop is partially right. He is not "advocating continuing to stereotype black women who aren't fortunate enough to get scholarships to college." He is making the point that rappers who write lyrics that degrade some black women are talking about the black women who do not want to go out and get something for themsleves. He is talking about the females who rappers think would rather have babies with rap artists and have the rap artists take care of them.

Do I think all rap songs are good? No. I think some of them are completely wrong and I do not listen to those. However, this idea that black people are not doing anything about the lyrics of rap artists is wrong. As I have said before many black leaders have come out against lyrics in rap music that degrade black women. Everyone who is pushing this idea that black people are not doing enough about rap music should look up C. Delores Tucker. Mrs. Tucker took on rap music in a major way and paid for it by being included in some of the rap songs of Tupac Sukuar and Emeinem. Mrs. Tucker protested the NAACP nominating Tupac Sukuar for an image award. In addition, she bought stock in record companies so she could protest the lyrics of rap music at shareholder meetings. Others like black female college students have protested the lyrics of rap music at their schools because their schools allowed certain rappers to perform at the schools.

However, I do have a few questions for you. Will you write the white people who listen to and buy rap music to ask them to protest against rap music? White people make up at least 50% of all rap music sales. It is possible that white people make up the majority of the sales of rap music. So, will you tell your white friends to boycott the sponsors of rap? Will you tell your white friends to not buy that type of music for their kids? Will you encourage your kids and family members to not buy that type of music? Will you tell your white friends to call the radio stations that play rap music and ask that they stop playing that type of music? Will you tell your white friends to write the record companies and demand the firing of rap artists? Will you write Michael Phelps (a white collegiate swimmer) and tell him or ask him to stop listening to Emeinem, who is one of the most sexist, homophobic, and misogynistic rappers around? Emeinem also put out a song bashing Mrs. Tucker for taking on the horrible lyrics in rap music. It may be hard for white people to hear, but it is possible that white people are actually the ones who are proping up rap music in that the sale of rap music has declined. For more read the article linked below, which was written in February. The second link is to the wikipedia entry for C. Delores Tucker

http://www.boston.com/ae/music/articles/2007/02/28/new_rap_problem_criticism_from_within/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._Delores_Tucker

[Vinca]

258. Huh???

"He is making the point that rappers who write lyrics that degrade some black women are talking about the black women who do not want to go out and get something for themsleves. He is talking about the females who rappers think would rather have babies with rap artists and have the rap artists take care of them."


If you tell someone they're a bitch and a "ho" enough times, I guess they will believe it. What's so bad about treating ALL women with respect - even if they choose not to go to college?

[gollygee]

253. We don't have the power to fire anyone

If Snoop Dogg stops making his record company money, I imagine he won't be making records for them anymore.

Imus' advertisers stopped wanting to be on his show. That's why he's gone. It isn't because of some objective dividing line of "OK speech" and "not OK speech". It's all about money.

[mdmc]

261. really can't boycott Imus and Snoop

I listen to the Dead and to NPR...