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Use This to Counter Claims that NAZIs Were Socialist

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liberalmike27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 02:38 PM
Original message
Use This to Counter Claims that NAZIs Were Socialist
Perhaps to emphasize this anti-capitalist focus, and to align itself with similar groups in Austria and Czechoslovakia, the party changed its name in February 1920 to the National Socialist German Workers’ Party; hostile commentators soon abbreviated this to the word ‘Nazi”, just as the enemies of the Social Democrats had abbreviated the name of that party earlier on to ‘Sozi’. Despite the change of name, however, it would be wrong to see Nazism as a form of or an outgrowth from, Socialism. True, as some have pointed out, its rhetoric was frequently egalitarian, it stressed the need to put common needs above the needs of the individual, and it often declared itself opposed to big business and international finance capital. Famously, too, anti-Semitism was once declared to be ‘the socialism of fools’. But from the very beginning Hitler declared himself implacably opposed to Social Democracy and, initially to a much smaller extent, Communism: after all, the ‘November traitors’ who had signed the Armistice and later the Treaty of Versailles were not Communists at all, but the Social Democrats and their allies.

The ‘National Socialists’ wanted to unite the two political camps of the left and right into which, they argued, the Jews had manipulated the German nation. The basis for this was to be the idea of race. This was light years removed from the class-based ideology of socialism. Nazism was in some ways an extreme counter-ideology to socialism, borrowing much of its rhetoric in the process, from its self-image as a movement rather than a party, to its much-vaunted contempt for bourgeois convention and conservative timidity. The idea of ‘party’, suggested allegiance to parliamentary democracy, working steadily within a settled democratic polity. In speeches and propagandas however, Hitler and his followers preferred on the whole to talk of ‘National Socialist movement’, just as the Social Democrats had talked of “workers’ movement” or, come to that, the feminists of the ‘women’s movement’ and the apostles of prewar teenage rebellion of ‘youth movement’. The term not only suggested dynamism and unceasing forward motion, it also more than hinted at an ultimate goal, an absolute object to work towards that was grander and more final than the endless compromises of conventional politics. By presenting itself as a ‘movement’, National Socialism, like the labor movement, advertised is opposition to conventional politics and is intention to subvert and ultimately overthrow the system within which it was initially forced to work.

By replacing class with race, and the dictatorship of the proletariat with the dictatorship of the leader, Nazism reversed the usual terms of socialist ideology. The synthesis of right and left was neatly symbolized in the Party’s official flag, personally chosen by Hitler in the mid-1920’s: the field was bright red, the color of socialism, with the swastika, the emblem of racist nationalism, outlined in black in the middle of a white circle at the centre of the flag, so that the whole ensemble made a combination of black, white, and red, the colors of the official flag of the Bismarckian rejection of the Weimar Republic and all it stood for; but by changing the design and adding the swastika, a symbol already used by a variety of far-right racist movements and Free Corps units in the postwar period, the Nazis also announced that what they wanted to replace it with was a new, Pan-German racial state, not the old Wilhelmine status quo.

The Coming of the Third Reich, by Richard J. Evans pp. 173-74


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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Or you could use your brain.
:shrug:
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. There's just one thing wrong with this tract, and that one thing is,
they won't understand one motherfucking word of it.


Who do you think you're dealing with out there, Carl Sandburg?!

:rofl:

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Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Very good book. n/t
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MidwestRick Donating Member (604 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. Anyone using the term "nazi"
in an argument has automatically lost said argument imo. Using words like "nazi", "Hitler", or "commie" usually have absolutely no substance to back their use of these words. It's usually at this point when I turn around and walk away shaking my head.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. "Fascist" was quite apropos when applied to Bush/Cheney, and their long list of enablers
Edited on Wed Aug-12-09 03:09 PM by Echo In Light
What we're seeing w/rightists throwing these terms around is their want of hurling such loaded buzz terms that they heard MANY use referencing Bush/Cheney, and so now want 'their turn' to use political philosophy based epithets that make them sound as if they know what fascism is and represents.
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MidwestRick Donating Member (604 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Maybe so...
but I have always disliked name calling or labeling when trying to have a debate or discussion in regards to politics or religion. It may just be me...I suppose it's just one of my many quirks, lol.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Name calling without any substance is always unproductive...

I do feel, however, that it is vitally important to understand the history of anti-communism and its relationship with post-WWII fascism in order to understand how we ended up where we did in the era of Bush.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Agree... They are just imitating what grassroots brought to the Democrats.
They are too stupid and lazy to come up with anything on their own, or even bother to know what the hell they are talking about.

An explanation like the OP suggested wouldn't work, because there are no catchy little phrases for them to latch on to and understand. Besides, it's not important for them to understand anything, they just want something evil to call the Democrats.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. The problem with that approach is that it goes contrary to what the survivors of the
Concentration Camps told them selves "To Never Forget."

I believe the critical issue is not so much to remember the end product as to remember the death by a thousand cuts which began in the late 20's and early 30's leading up to that atrocious evil and in order to do that, one must be vigilant to abuse of power by the state.

I'm still convinced when Cheney/Bush were in power they took the American Nation down that path, even if they didn't complete the journey, the hatred, disenfranchisement of votes, condoning and promoting of torture, imprisoning people with no legal recourse, firing U.S. Attorneys; who didn't actively disenfranchise voters, spying on U.S. citizens, the Patriot Act, Homeland Security etc. etc.

I have no problem with referring to their policies as fascist.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. That sums it up rather well
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. The key is their relationship to Marxism...

these National Socialists were highly anti-Marxist and worked to defeat the pro-Marxist political parties. Post-Depression Germany had almost given up on capitalism and viewed it as a failed system. Industrialists and certain bankers felt threatened that communism might take hold and spread throughout Europe, so they decided to sponsor the rise of Hitler. US industrialists played an important role in sponsoring his political campaign. Later, they began pushing fascism as a viable "Third Way" alternative to both capitalism and communism. Most sane people view fascism as a far right-wing ideology which is the polar opposite of Marxist socialism. Even after Hitler was defeated, it was still a success for these industrialists as the anti-communist efforts of the Nazis were co-opted by them and capitalism was once again restored, at least to West Germany.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. No, use this:
http://www.comics.aha.ru/rus/stalin/1.html

Its a Soviet comic book which presents an epic battle between Hitler and Stalin. Its more at their intellectual level, and you can use it to remind them that when Hitler fell, it was because his capital was swarmed by Soviet Communists, not free marketeers. The two were natural enemies, and many communists died in the camps.
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. Fascism, by any name, is a right-wing ideology. Tenets of fascism include:
1. An overtly nationalistic, xenophobic outlook in which foreigners and recent immigrants are made scapegoats for nation-wide problems.
2. An aggressive, imperialistic military dedicated to using force to accomplish national goals or distract from domestic worries.
3. A strong, blatant alliance of government with powerful corporations in which the private firms finance government projects designed to further the profitability of those companies.
4. Government spending on military weaponry that outstrips spending on public and social welfare programs.
5. A governmental program of "rule by fear" in which all forms of interpersonal communications (i.e. letters, telephone calls, social gatherings, etc.) are monitored by elements of the state in order to protect and consolidate government power.
6. Elimination of legal due process in civil and criminal matters in order to promote a judiciary that rules from the bench by fiat, not consensus.
7. Use of national symbols (i.e. flags, banners, etc.) in a manner designed to make those symbols revered and even sacred by the populous.
8. Promotion of a single, central figure possessing real or illusory power, that the nation focusses on, and who is supposed to be venerated and even worshipped by the people.
9. Use of grand titles by that leader (Our Leader, etc.) intended to make him seem omnipotent and invincible.
10. Promotion of a national attitude towards the military, including an overt focus on uniforms and the infallibility of those wearing them, designed to make the military superior to, and independent of, the civil state.


Doesn't this describe the right-wingers perfectly?
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I thought that was
the republican party platform.
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. To-may-to, to-mah-to...
B-)
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. Didn't the Nazis send the Socialists and Communists to death camps
right along with Jews, gays, and gypsies?
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. Myth: Hitler was a leftist.
Fact: Nearly all of Hitler's beliefs placed him on the far right.
Summary

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.

source...
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm


This page is an excellent source for highlighting the the far right policies of the nazis.
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ikri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
16. National Socialism is to Socialism as
The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is to Democracy.

Just because someone adopts a name or title doesn't mean that they also adopt the policies.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-12-09 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
19. k and r
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