The sexualized schoolgirl outfit. Sexy, or disturbing?

[redqueen]

Poll question: The sexualized schoolgirl outfit. Sexy, or disturbing?

What do you think?

[Skittles]

1. it is disgusting

[redqueen]

9. Sums up my thoughts on the matter succinctly.

Thanks.

[mzmolly]

192. +1!

:kick:

[hedgehog]

2. It's one thing for high school boys to have fantasies about

high school girls, quite another for grown men.

[ccharles000]

3. Disturbing

[Forkboy]

4. Depends on who it's on.

[dem629]

5. Yep.

At least 18 and hot, it's fine.

[redqueen]

6. I know what you're saying...

but that post could be SO easily misread. ;)

(See the "and hot" qualifier in the first response to your post for clarification. I assumed that was not how you meant it. I read your post as meaning the wearer would have to be not someone who is actually school-aged.)

As for me, simply the idea that women are sexier when dressed up as underage people is sick. MHO of course.

[Forkboy]

18. "but that post could be SO easily misread."

Yeah, I know. I have to do something to make this day fun. :evilgrin:

[redqueen]

26. LOL...

Hey Forkboy... did you know that I'm a prude?

[Forkboy]

35. Nothing wrong a couple of prudes daily. Keeps the system regular.

Oh wait, that's prunes. Sorry. Carry on. :)

[dem629]

159. I don't care how it was meant. The response stands.

Somebody like http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/gallery/stars/lauren-conrad/">Lauren Conrad, for example, could pull it off.

Someone like Rosie O'Donnell...not so much. (And don't worry, I won't link a pic.)

So, yeah, it depends on who's trying.

[lukasahero]

162. Oh good god are you actually going with the

"if she's sexy it's works if not, no dice" defense?

Seriously - if you're an adult and you're getting off on a woman looking like a little girl, get help.

[dem629]

163. No need for help.

You actually managed to stumble backward into the answer. It depends on who's wearing it. I mean, the goal eventually is for them not to be wearing it anyway, right?

Some people are hot. Some are not. Do you disagree?

(Here's the part where you can tell me to get help because you have nothing else to say. Ready.... GO!) :hi:

[lukasahero]

169. Sorry but if you need your women to look like little girls,

I still think you need to examine that. Maybe the power of a fully adult woman is a little too much for you to handle.

Look, I understand everybody has their fetishes but I do find it disturbing that so many men need to have women assume fantasy roles of submission to get off.

[dem629]

170. Well, it's not that I "need" it. (Edit to add...)

I said it's fine. Again, depending on who is trying to pull off the look. I like fully adult women, and recently adult women. Just as I said in my initial response, over 18.

You don't need someone to explain to you that there's no such thing as underage clothing, do you? And you don't need someone to explain to you that there are many colleges where the girls where that type of thing as a uniform, do you? Because if you do, I really don't have the time to help you with that stuff.

What's really interesting is the sexual judgment going on here. HMMMMMM.

Here's a deal I'll make with you. You can do all the judging and finger-wagging you need to do to make yourself feel better, and I will continue to laugh at the fact that there's nothing you can do about it.

The rest of this thread is yours!

:hi:

[Gman2]

295. Men, like birthers, have been sold what is sexy, for profit.

Our images of adult sexual compromise and practice are polluted with sadomasichistic and disturbing dominance actions with NO empathy, nor compassion. The girls are made to look just like Fox News Spokesmodels. It is no surprise that a large segment of Fox watchers thought Homemaker was the best place for Palin. Every commercial and most programming uses sexual stereotyping to glue eyeballs. All these cues are not very intended for ladies benefit. They are for men. WHY? Cuz men will pay. Women are abused by being sold a Princess fantasy, and makeup, hair and nails. The whole business is sick. And one of the biggest reasons why I thank the good lord I am not homosexual. I would hurl constantly. I used to drink with friends at a few beach places, and this troop of trannies would swish in. ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the men dropped their good bets, and pushed up on the fake sisters. Cuz they overdid the same things the real girls did. Men were just like moths to flames. We are just animals.

[Ghost in the Machine]

193. "Seriously - if you're an adult and you're getting off on a woman looking like a little girl..."

"Seriously - if you're an adult and you're getting off on a woman looking like a little girl, get help."


Do you apply this standard to women who shave their pubic hair? Some guys really get off on that. For me, it's a total turn-off. It's my personal opinion that it makes you look like a little girl. Little girls are bald, grown women have hair "down there". I don't want no little girl, or anything that looks like a little girl.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3240771#3240806

:hi:

[Gman2]

296. They are creating an itch that can only be scratched by porn.

Where are you going to find actual persons that will allow you to do many of those things? So, you have a dual life. You take care of that manufactured need, with a credit card. It is strictly business. I, for one cannot look upon that dark domineering porn. Never could.

[redqueen]

265. Well not everyone is as superficial as you, thank goodness! (nt)

[ZombieHorde]

73. +1 Here is the same character in both live action and anime form.

Taken from Blood: The Last Vampire.

[comrade snarky]

93. The poll does leave out important qualifiers

Schoolgirl - Not Sexy

Schoolgirl outfit on a woman - Can be Sexy, Can be Creepy

Schoolgirl outfit on a woman with a sword who knows how to use it - Totally Sexy!

[Yunomi]

122. Ooooohhhh. Saya.

And don't forget GoGo, from "Kill Bill Vol. 1" Dangerous schoolgirls!

[ZombieHorde]

294. If you like anime you should check out the animation board here on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=286

We could use a few more posters.

[Schema Thing]

7. Had to vote "other"

I've seen it waaaaay too much for it to disturb me, and then again, I've seen it waaaaay to much for it to be a turn on, in and of itself.

[NYC_SKP]

8. Disturbingly Sexy???

:shrug:

[MajorChode]

10. Sexy, in a disturbing kind of way

But lots of things are that way if you put a lot of thought into them. Grown women with ponytails or those that shave their cooters are only a couple of examples.

It's been many years since I've been to Japan, but the last time I was there it was quite the fashion trend for grown women to dress up like schoolgirls, complete with backpacks, and since many schoolgirls there actually dress like schoolgirls, it was very difficult to tell the difference.

[redqueen]

14. I don't consider it the same at all.

Ponytails are just cute... not specific to underage girls.

The other thing... well there are other, non-sickening reasons someone might find that sexy.

[MajorChode]

148. Why not?

Some guys may like women who shave their beavers because they like to fantasize about prepubescent girls. Some guys may like women who dress up like schoolgirls because they like schoolgirls. On the other side of the coin, some guys may just like the clean shaven look and some guys just may like women who dress up out of character and roleplay, whether it be a nurse, a maid, or a schoolgirl. Some guys like to spank women's asses and have them call them daddy. You can read too much into anything. So long as someone isn't ogling REAL schoolgirls, I could really care less what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes.

[redqueen]

150. Yep.

Pretty much!

Thanks for your posts. :)

[Cant trust em]

11. This poll indicates that something disturbing can't be sexy

I suspect that many people find it sexy because it is disturbing.

[redqueen]

13. That's pretty sick right there. I realize I'm not in the majority...

but IMO flirting with the idea that underage = sexy is fucked up. Full stop.

[Cant trust em]

17. For the record, I agree with you.

[MrSlayer]

12. Very sexy.

I love it.

[Quantess]

15. It's not my thing, but I'm not about to judge other people's fetishes.

It seems fairly harmless.

[redqueen]

16. Yes, I'm tempted to think it's my personal issues that make it so disgusting to me...

but as there are others who agree and who don't share my issues... maybe not.

:shrug:

[reflection]

19. Sexy when I was much younger, and without kids.

Not so much now.

I don't think it's the schoolgirl outfit itself that is supposed to be sexy, but what it represents - innocence and virginity. It's the virgin/slut dichotomy that is represented in so many film fantasies.

[redqueen]

22. Madonna/whore... yes... that's part of why it's so disgusting and wrong.

IMO at least.

[TorchTheWitch]

20. Disturbing but it works

Nothing makes money like a school girl outfit. I had no idea so many men of every age, class and despription that are so enamored of the school girl or other little girl act. I think it's creepy as hell, but it never fails to get the attention that makes the money.

[Echo In Light]

21. I find it basically, well, dumb

Sure, it's easy to read more into it ...the origins of using the woman/child imagery, the unavoidable innocence/subservience subtext, and the predatory aspects that go along with it ... however, even though most human behavior isn't fundamentally different from animal behavior, people - especially given our fucked up social climate in addressing the matter - are very complex, and not every man who lusts over that type of imagery is a would-be predator.

That aside, I find the look too manipulative to be "sexy." Sexy for me is my wife walking around in the morning in her under-bunders and an old t-shirt.

[redqueen]

24. No, I'd never imply that any man who liked it was a would-be predator.

Where'd you get that from?

I don't think seeing the 'child' imagery is is reading anything into it at all. It's right there.

[Echo In Light]

28. The observation is my own, and isn't reflective of anything in your postings

[David__77]

23. Well I'm gay, but I guess it's kinda sexy sometimes.

Everyone is so freaked out about "sexualization" of youth, that they ignore the fact that youth are sexual by nature, along with everyone else. I'm not advocated sex between adults and underage people - I don't like that. But at the same time, there are complex reasons that people have sexual attraction to things like a school outfit, that may stem from their own past experiences. It certainly doesn't make someone a sexual predator necessarily.

[redqueen]

25. Where is this sexual predator stuff coming from?

:wtf:

[David__77]

123. I know no one said it, but it's implicit in the discourse.

Why would it be "disturbing?" If it didn't correlate with adverse behavior, what's the discussion about?

A lot of people are creeped out by a man salivating over a female in a school girl's outfit? Why?

[redqueen]

125. Disturbing is the same thing as predator?

The discussion is about the image of a woman dressed up to look like a little girl.

As for why it's creepy... I don't even know how to begin. I would think 'a woman dressed up to look like a little girl' would do it...

[aikoaiko]

27. Are we talking about the archetype or a specific outfit?

:shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

30. It's just the prude-police calling anyone who likes it a misogynist pedophile...

Nothing to see here... move along.

[redqueen]

40. Aw, no need to be so defensive.

Can't we disagree without one side resorting to such tactics? I understand defensiveness, but there's really no need, as I never said any such thing, and even admitted it might be more due to my issues than anything else.

[BlooInBloo]

29. Um, sexy. Durr.

[Curtland1015]

31. I don't think it's so much about "young vs. old" as it is "nice vs. naughty".

A woman dressed in pretty much ANY uniform is fetishized this way. A woman expected to act "nice" acts nasty instead.

That's what I've always seen it as anyway.

[iris27]

200. Not any uniform...you don't see straight men drooling over women firefighters or military personnel

the way straight women do for men in those uniforms (and not for men in catholic school uniforms). It's a power thing...at least that's what I've always seen it as anyway.

[jmg257]

32. I think it is much more the short skirt then the 'schoolgirl' aspect that can be found sexy...

And then only on (older) women with great legs. (of course an almost open button-down shirt full of goodies doesn't hurt either)

Maybe is why cheerleader & french maid outfits work too - short skirts.

[omega minimo]

33. Is Craig Ferguson wearing it?

[redqueen]

71. Hah.

Love that guy. :D

[omega minimo]

267. And he can wear whatever he likes......

and be sexy AND disturbing....... :bounce:

[XemaSab]

34. I'm putting my vote in for sexy

It's not just the innocence, I think the primness has something to do with it too. Sort of like the dirty librarian fantasy.

It's a uniform, and if women are allowed to think uniforms are hot, why not men? :shrug:

[Curtland1015]

39. Exactly!

+1.

[Echo In Light]

42. My wife wore those big librarian glasses when we met!

HOT

[reflection]

46. Yep. Librarians and nurses.

Both relatively common fantasies among men. These outfits/roles are very common in both written and visual erotica.

[redqueen]

48. Not all uniforms are the same. I don't find schoolboy uniforms sexy.

Do you?

[XemaSab]

51. Most of those are too dorky to be hot

:shrug:

[redqueen]

56. It's not the uniforms but the women that are hot, in the schoolgirl context

so I'm not sure the style of uniform really matters.

:shrug:

[XemaSab]

68. The biggest erotic zone of the body is the brain

I think uniforms make people hotter, in the right context.

[redqueen]

69. Completely agree on both. (nt)

[Curtland1015]

57. Not a fan of AC/DC, huh?

:P

[redqueen]

58. I am, actually!

But I don't lust after Angus, no matter how compellingly his knees are featured in that get up. :P

[Curtland1015]

63. Oh come on!

How can you not love an ugly hunk of old man in a green velvet schoolboy uniform?

[iris27]

77. Exactly - thank you!

As a bi woman, I find women in police/military uniforms extremely sexy. Schoolgirls outfits are just creepy. I think it has to do with what sort of uniform it is and what implications behind it are. Police, etc - strong, powerful...schoolgirl - naive, someone you can have power over.

[redqueen]

85. Apparently many progressives disagree.

I'm on the same page as you, though.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

115. LOL. in order to find something stronger than you sexy, arent you willing

to then be the one one has power over. arent these just two sides of the same coin?

how can you find one side attractive, the other creepy?

i get the age argument a lot better than the power argument.

[redqueen]

129. That's a good point...

I'm trying to think of what other female-oriented costumes imply that lack of power... I can't think of any offhand.

Thinking of it in that context makes it less disturbing though for sure. So thank you for pointing that out. :)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

135. nurse? maid? anything that is subservient?

[redqueen]

136. Yes... the maid...

I never thought of it like that... I only thought it was a sexy get-up... but you're right. I don't have a problem with that at all. I'm glad you pointed out that the same power dynamic is at play with the school girl. It honestly never occurred to me. All I saw was a woman dressed up as underage girl.

[DutchLiberal]

143. I think it has to do with both: power as well as 'the forbidden'...

Schoolgirls are 'forbidden' because they are underage.

[redqueen]

144. Yes, and that would be the part that I find disturbing. (nt)

[DutchLiberal]

152. As long as the uniforms are worn by adults (18 +), I don't see why...

I mean, it's not like we (I) are lusting after underage girls. We (I) think girls of legal age wearing school uniforms are sexy. That's an important difference.

Although, I don't want to be a hypocrite and therefore I must confess that I found Miley Cyrus around that pole very sexy, even though I know she's only 16 years old (I'm 23, by the way). I think age is a very artificial thing to draw a line. There are 16 year olds who look like they're only 12, and there are those who look like they're over 18. And plenty look like their age and can still be considered attractive.

If you're 16 and you are presenting yourself like Miley Cyrus did, you're bound to attract attention from men. I think that's only natural. After all, she has the 'building' of a 'grown-up'. She looks sexually mature. That men are attracted to that is a biological reaction. The age 'limits' we have set are necessary, but artificial.

[iris27]

202. No. I find military, etc. uniforms attractive because I like the idea of two fairly dominant

personalities mixing it up together. Not interested in anyone having power "over" anyone else...more like, I know I'm not going to break them.

In my observations, schoolgirl/cheerleader/nurse/french maid/really any outfit that is widely considered "attractive" on women usually comes from a place of naivete/innocence/service that lets the desirer feel superior.

[darkstar3]

210. Naivete and subservience I'll give you...

Those are the obvious connotations behind the French Maid outfit, which is why I personally find it more disturbing than attractive.

The same thing goes for the Nurse's uniform. Traditionally, (especially in the context of the little white hats that always seem to make it into the uniforms but not into real life) nurses are seen more as servants and less as caregivers.

But I don't understand your comment regarding innocence. How does innocence play into any kind of power struggle or superiority complex?

[dorkulon]

220. Most people are either 'tops' or 'bottoms' to some degree.

Why is that wrong, just because you don't feel that way?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

230. most role play is somewhat dominant-submissive. again, not my place to judge

whether one does or doesnt enjoy being submissive.

[redqueen]

248. I don't really find any uniforms inherently sexy, myself.

However, I do enjoy a little of the power dynamics, and in that, I would definitely not balk at a nurse/french maid outfit at all.

Before I started this thread, I was only seeing the schoolgirl outfit as something representing children... it doesn't make me think of 16-year olds... it makes me think of 13-year olds. Maybe because that's when I first got boobs... I dunno.

However, after reading a lot of these responses... I think we have to concede that many people enjoy this outfit not due to the implication that the woman looks underage... but for the power dynamic.

Or that's my take anyway... of course saying 'we have to' is a bit strong... but that is my opinion.

I no longer find this outfit so disturbing, and I'm glad for that.

[TorchTheWitch]

I think there's something to that

I'm sitting here thinking what outfits I use that get the most attention. I don't think it's so much primness as it is the "forbidden". The school girl, the teacher/secretary/librarian, the cop, even the overblown black patent leather bad girl are always the ones that get the most attention. But of all of them, the school girl or other little girl act always seems to be the one that gets the most attention over all.

[Mythsaje]

199. I know I do... find uniforms sexy...

But not schoolgirl or maid outfits. Or fake porno uniforms. I mean REAL uniforms. Military, police, postal worker, UPS. Assuming the person wearing them is someone I'd find attractive in general.

Like I've said before...we all have our kinks.

[Political Heretic]

291. Bingo.

Although.... why is this poll up? Is it about something specific.... I might not think the specific implementation of sexy schoolgirl is in fact sexy.

[Iggo]

36. Both.

[marshall]

160. I agree that it is both

The sexiest things are sexy because they are forbidden, and they're forbidden because they are disturbing.

[Odin2005]

37. Anyone who doesn't think it's disturbing needs a kick in the face.

[jmg257]

41. Will you wear open toed heels? nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. yes, because ALL of us should have the exact same opinion, on what other adult women

choose to wear, and then we should all be the judge. else odin2005 will go all interior warrior on us. and NOTHING, i repeat NOTHING is more fearful that an internet warrior.

[rug]

111. Well, he did choose a viking name.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

116. terrifying. nt

[Odin2005]

181. What wrong with a Norwegian-American being interested in Nordic mythology?

[reflection]

66. Well, that's reasonable.

:eyes:

[Rebubula]

84. Nice...

...are you now the morals police??

That is a VERY non-progressive thing to say. Many on the other side say that men that find other men sexy should be kicked in the face.

[Odin2005]

99. Simulated pedophilia is Progressive?

[David__77]

126. You are challenging the mainstream aesthetics of society.

People on average prefer more juvenile features in both sexes. So sexually mature adults whose features more closely resemble children are generally considered more attractive, on average. That is something that has long been studied.

[David__77]

133. Ugh I'm glad I'm not as uptight as I used to be!

So many people are spouting the orthodox leftist "it's sick and exploitative" line. It's a mirror of the puritanism of the right. It negates sexuality generally.

[Odin2005]

139. That is true, but you misunderstood what I said.

I was not saying being attracted to a youthful appearance is bad, I meant that a fetish implying going after jail-bait is a bad idea.

[David__77]

142. I think i can't have a total position on this...

I would be creeped out by someone with a defined paraphilia, as in they only get off if they have their partner dress in infantilizing clothing. On the other hand, if some person gets excited by the imagery without a full fledged fetish, I don't see a big problem.

[pipoman]

147. Militant prudishness sure the hell isn't progressive...

:dunce:

[Odin2005]

166. I'm no prude.

[pipoman]

179. It's a relativity issue

I'm sure that those who think GLBT people "needs a kick in the face" would deny prudishness too..

[pipoman]

180. Maybe

you should defend your post #37...it makes you sound like a real asshole.

[Odin2005]

182. I admit, it was a bit over-the-top.

I was posting during the "gut-retching disgust" phase. :dunce:

[DutchLiberal]

124. Okay, go ahead... Give your best shot...

[dem629]

153. He's just saying that to look "good."

[DutchLiberal]

155. Then his attempt failed miserably!

:rofl:

[dem629]

158. With those of us who will admit the truth, yep.

But guys like that will denounce such things while checking out every chick in sight. Never fails. I've known too many people like that to be fooled by their phony stance.

[SIMPLYB1980]

157. Yes master. Can I have another.

:spank:

[bobbolink]

190. Your violence is noted.

:puke:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Very sexy.

Up there with french maid outfits and nurses.

Also- the logical consequence of prudes forcing school uniforms.

[jmg257]

43. MORE short skirts - I think that is the key! nt

[Echo In Light]

62. I played in metal bar bands in the 90s when most girls dressed like Kelly Bundy

LOL

I find a simple summer dress much more attractive.

[jmg257]

65. Ahh - sundresses. Nice call! nt

[iris27]

203. mmm...sundresses...

:)

[SidneyCarton]

67. +1

[redqueen]

88. Hahahah... I wish I'd read this sooner.

I myself dig the French maid and nurse's outfits. I should work on that I guess, being a prude and all.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

109. I'm guessing you've got a thing for school girl outfits too.

You just feel disturbed by it.

[redqueen]

110. Hah, no.

That kind of thing just isn't my bag.

[MineralMan]

44. I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

Should there be a link to something?

[redqueen]

92. Sorry...

I'm afraid to link as those posts tend to get deleted... but someone on another thread claimed that ALL men find this look sexy. After reading that I thought that some might find it disturbing.

[DutchLiberal]

128. Obviously, I was using hyperbole when I said "all men"...

Great thread, by the way. Love to read other people's thoughts. :)

[redqueen]

130. Thank you for not being all defensive and shit!

:woohoo:

I like you! :)

[DutchLiberal]

134. I hate the defensive attitude on DU. It's getting worse every day...

By the way, since I've opened this thread I can't stop thinking about that song "Don't stand so close to me" by The Police:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXU8kCrRHJY

"Inside her there's longing
This girl's an open page
Book marking - she's so close now
This girl is half his age"

[rug]

114. Here you go.

And in the interest of balance

[redqueen]

127. Um, that is SO not balanced.

Cheesecake vs. old haggard rocker. No... not even close.

[rug]

175. There are not many school boy images. Feel free to find your own.

[redqueen]

237. I don't care to see one. I'm just disabusing you of the notion that those are balanced.

You're welcome. :)

[alfredo]

189. But he is wearing white socks. There's got to be a

white sock fetish. There's a multitude of fetishes out there, so there could be a person very stimulated at the sight of his little white socks. David Addington or Harriet Meirs could be breathing heavy at the sight, So let's not be so quick to judge our school boy, he could be the vehicle that enables some lonely former government employee to feel a bit of release.

Show some compassion.

[MineralMan]

168. OK. Now I see.

I liked schoolgirl outfits when I was a schoolboy. Then I grew up.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. Neither, for me. i am much more amused at how sexy catholic school girl outfits are in this country

than in other countries. my catholic school uniform was never that sexy!

but its also not my business what other people find sexy, so long as they arent foisting it on me. i find pigtails on adult women far more distressing, but really what business is it of mine?

[redqueen]

52. Well the reason I asked this, is someone commented that EVERY guy finds this sexy.

I was pretty sure that was not the case, and didn't want to make this into a big deal kind of a thread, despite my personal hang ups about the matter.

:)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

59. i think if you had asked, does EVERY man find schoolgirl outfits sexy

you would have found different answers to the ones you are getting. asking for a judgment, gets you judgmental answers.

[BlooInBloo]

74. The poster knows that perfectly well, and chose his or her words consciously.

[redqueen]

78. Those were the words that popped into my head, after reading

that comment which said that ALL men like it. I said that I'm sure some found it disturbing.

I didn't forumlate some dastardly plan to demonize men... :eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

79. Fascinating.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

95. the issue isnt demonizing men as much as making judgments over people's sexual tastes

we all do it now and again. i for instance find age disparate relationships disturbing.

however you certainly have upped the number of judgmental and fundamental-monogamy posts lately. in the last year, the number of sex-negative and insistence of only the purist monogamy is the only acceptable monogamy posts have increased highly.

you have become the person and the type of feminist, both you and i used to ridicule together. i think it's sad. i am sure you are going to take this as a personal attack but its really not meant to be. i miss the redqueen i could relate to. i find the new one distressing.

[redqueen]

98. I am more forward when I disagree, that's true.

I haven't changed one bit... I just don't hide behind niceties or avoid speaking up when I disagree or have a problem with something... that's all.

I can't ridicule that type of feminist anymore. I don't agree with them entirely, nor do I disagree entirely.

I'm sorry you find me disturbing now. :shrug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

100. you never had a problem speaking your mind. please dont pretend that i find

your assertiveness a problem because i dont.

[redqueen]

102. I meant in the context of disagreement.

Before I would be more deferential with people I like... I would couch disagreements and let them slide, in the interest of maintaining a climate of friendship. But I stopped doing that in favor of seeking a further understanding in disagreements. Hasn't worked out too well though, I don't mind saying.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

104. no, we've disagreed before and again, you are trying to make your assertiveness an issue here, its

not. its not about me. there are plenty of occasions i see you do this sexnegative nonsense, that i dont bother to even get into.

anyhow. guess it doesnt matter. its been a long while since we were anything close to friendly, and i suspect we never will be. life happens. :shrug:

[redqueen]

106. What does 'sexnegative' even mean?

Not all sex is the same. I'm negative about some sex-related subjects, and probaly way over-positive about others.

As for the personal stuff, just leave it then... why even bring it up?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

107. suit yourself. i think you know the definition, nt

[redqueen]

112. I looked it up... and no, that is most definitely not me.

I think the issue might be that I don't post about sex-positive things anymore. I still think them... I just don't post them.

[Echo In Light]

54. LOL

And my hair is longer than his!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. oddly, that doesnt look disturbing to me.

[hunter]

118. Willie Nelson in a school girl uniform would be disturbing to me.

:P

[Stinky The Clown]

47. Erm ...... is there context to this?

[BlueCollar]

53. Good question...n/t

[redqueen]

60. Yep. Someone claimed ALL men find this sexy.

I was curious as to whether that is true.

[reflection]

91. Anytime someone uses 'all' or 'every' in a declaration,

you can usually bet on it being false. There are few absolutes in this world.

[iris27]

204. I wonder how this poll would look if broken down by gender?

Or would straight women just not vote? I don't believe all of the men would vote that it's sexy, of course. But I do think the 'disturbing' category may be a little inflated by the votes of people who aren't relevant to your specific curiosity about the claim made in the other thread.

[Buzz Clik]

49. link?

[SidneyCarton]

55. Problematic.

I voted disturbing, though I will admit that I also find it somewhat alluring (yes, yes, confused and repressed I know...) In as much as it argues for the sexualization of underage girls, it is disturbing. On the other hand, it's a form of dress engaged in by women of legal age because they understand that it is a turn-on. Hence, it's problematic. :shrug:

[Deja Q]

64. Well, it's one way to ensure sex gets taught in the classroom.

:shrug:

[reflection]

70. Depends on if she's dancing a jig.

:hide:

[redqueen]

72. LOL

:spank:

[Stinky The Clown]

120. Or if her jig is up .....

..... in that niggardly way jogs can get up ........

...... fructer

[spanone]

75. don't know what it is.

[guitar man]

76. I think

This thread is useless without pictures :evilgrin:

[EOTE]

97. Here ya go.

As for whether or not men find women in schoolgirl uniforms sexy... Yes, but only if they have a pulse.

[guitar man]

101. thanks!

That bottom one is especially hot! :P

:hi:

[iris27]

207. WTF is up with the "HATE" tie? Now that's disturbing...and confusing...

Now my brain hurts.

[TorchTheWitch]

213. It's "DATE" not "HATE"

[reflection]

255. Looks like Hate to me also. n/t

[moggie]

276. But those look nothing like real schoolgirls

So if someone found them sexy, I wouldn't automatically assume he was attracted to young girls.

[DutchLiberal]

278. Those are very exaggerated...

This one's more natural:



She's 27, by the way.

[TorchTheWitch]

282. I'd much prefer the more exagerated style

The more "natural" style like this blurs the line between actual ungerage school girl and adult playing a sexual dress up game.

[Rebubula]

80. Well...

...Mrs. Rebubula has several outfits that she wears when we have time alone. One is a cheerleader outfit.

I find it very sexy, but do not fantasize about teenage cheerleaders - except that I fantasize about when Mrs. Rebubula was a HS Cheerleader.

It is NOT the same as sexualizing young women. At least we do not think so.

Anyway...people's desires (as long as they are nonviolent and between consenting adults) are private and I could not care less if they want to dress up in Diapers (Talking to you Sen. Vitter), schoolgirl outfits (I think this is not as much a US thing, but a Japan\UK thing) or animal outfits.

You know...for a progressive site, there are a lot of people that want to demonize other people's sexuality or their inner desires.

[redqueen]

83. See subthread starting with post 45.

That should clear up the "demonization" thing.

[greguganus]

284. Your post is meaningless without pictures! n/t

[mitchum]

81. Cliched

[Buzz Clik]

82. For those who don't read minds:

There's nothing wrong with it other than offending some people's fragile sensibilities.

[redqueen]

87. LOL are you joking?

Yeah, yeah... I get it... anything to post a pic.

[Buzz Clik]

171. Funny that -- you didn't do squat when I asked for the link to give context to your thread.

But here you are now -- all seething with faux-rage.

[redqueen]

236. In what universe does "LOL" connote "seething with faux-rage"?

:rofl:

And what has this post got to do with a link?

[Buzz Clik]

239. Typical. Pick out a single word to disagree with to avoid answering the question.

Your interaction with me -- both in ignoring my original request to provide context and this subthread -- has pretty well defined your position on this issue.

I'll let it go at that.

[redqueen]

243. I missed your original request... I answered the one posted right before you.

Sorry you're taking it personally... and as some kind of meaning-laden clue for you. It's really not.

LOL... I've stated my position on this issue all over this thread. :wtf:

[Deja Q]

90. Is it a horror story or a documentary about why God invented periods instead of the stork?

:hide:

[Buzz Clik]

172. You know, I'm already in trouble here. Now this.

:rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

94. There are few things less hot than that....

Alyssa Milano or Jessica Alba in that outfit are 2 of them, however.

:P

[Jennicut]

105. Except Megan Fox is in her twenties

[Buzz Clik]

173. Exactly. She is totally legal.

Any huffing and puffing over that is so much hot air.

[DutchLiberal]

138. Too bad I'm the only straight male who doesn't think Megan Fox is sexy...

People actually won't believe me!

[Buzz Clik]

174. I didn't hear Meghan Fox's name before today.

Taste is women is completely personal. Dressing up like little girls isn't what I look for, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[proteus_lives]

206. Megan Fox would be wearing a radiation containment suit....

and still be dead-sexy.

[Canuckistanian]

86. No thanks

I like my fruit ripe.

[Echo In Light]

89. ...and not looking like a product, per se

[Taverner]

96. For some reason, it really looks sexy on 30 and 40 something women

Then again, I like 30 and 40 something women ;)

[One_Life_To_Give]

103. On Mrs OLTG?

Truth is I find most anything on Mrs OLTG Sexy. Although given our age some of you might personally have a different opinion of our dressing/acting like we were in High School.

Seriously it's not how a Man (or woman) reacts to the Costume that would concern me. It's when they can't tell the difference between a costume and reality that would be cause for concern.

on edit; Can't type for shit.

[me b zola]

108. Disturbing

When men enjoy a woman dressing up in a nurses uniform it is because he enjoys fantasizing about "the naughty nurse". When a man enjoys a woman dressing up as a school girl it is because he enjoys fantasies involving school girls. I'm not saying that every, or even most, men who have the school girl fantasy would ever act that out with a minor, but it is freaking sick.

[Mrs. Overall]

113. Disturbing.

Period.

[amborin]

117. it's been a favorite in Japan for a long time

[DutchLiberal]

119. I think it's sexy.

When worn by an adult, why not? What's disturbing about that?

A white blouse, a short skirt, white socks in black shoes up until the ankles... Who could resist?

[redqueen]

132. Yes... that's what I started this thread to find out...

what's disturbing about it? Obviously there are a wide range of opinions on this... and I'm glad I started this cause I now have a better understanding of it after thinking about it in terms of power differential as opposed to an age difference. :)

[hunter]

121. Remember this? "Girl at school was 39-year-old man"

"Girl" at school was 39-year-old man

TOKYO (Reuters) - A Japanese man was arrested for trespassing this week after turning up at a high school dressed in a girl's uniform and a long wig, local police said.

Thirty-nine-year-old Tetsunori Nanpei told police he had bought the uniform over the Internet and put it on to take a stroll near the school in Saitama, north of Tokyo, on Wednesday, the daily Asahi Shimbun said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN2257905520080222

[redqueen]

131. Holy shit...

no, I don't remember that... :wtf:

[RadiationTherapy]

137. Losers living in the past; get over it.

I dislike a fantasy that involves a person 17 years or younger.

I also don't like cheerleader porn or that 'trick' where they put a woman in pigtails and braces to look young.

[redqueen]

140. Someone upthread mentioned that there is also a power dynamic...

involved, but I'd rather use the French maid's outfit for that... none of the ugly underage assocations.

[RadiationTherapy]

161. *hot*

[NashVegas]

141. It Used to Be VERY Disturbing To Me

I was repeatedly molested in that outfit, as a 6-7 year old, no less.

I got over it, finally, a few years ago and am willing to give a break to those who can openly admit to the fetish - as long as it remains in adult-land. A local pub - The Flying Saucer - has all their waitresses in plaited skirts. At least it looks better than Hooters.

Me? I get funny when I encounter a guy in a Ritchie Cunningham shirt. Doesn't mean I'm going anywhere near 9 year olds.

[redqueen]

146. Thank you very much for your post.

Hopefully I'll be where you are someday, and I won't have that twinge of fear/anger about it.

[NashVegas]

225. Good Luck

Finding your way to it. I am where I am thanks to some good friends who gave tons of emotional support when I finally got the stones to confront the diocese. Most terrifying and liberating thing, ever.

[DailyGrind51]

145. It sends the wrong message.

[redqueen]

149. I have that impression as well. (nt)

[DailyGrind51]

229. Not that there is anything wrong with costumes or role-playing,

But aren't there enough "adult" costumes: "French maid", "Dominatrix", "Nurse", "Xena", etc.?

[redqueen]

257. Not at all... I'm glad I started this thread... because obviously the 'underage' aspect

is not as much a part of the attraction as I'd previously thought. I'm fine with the power dynamic stuff so my answer for this poll today would be different than it was yesterday. :)

[DutchLiberal]

288. There is no such thing as an "adult costume".

I think you know that. It's the person that's in it that counts.

[DailyGrind51]

308. I like your point, thank you!

[dem629]

154. LOL

[Obama2012]

151. I think it's hot, and I'm a woman

[DutchLiberal]

156. Are you married or seeing someone?

(I'm kidding!)

[Obama2012]

183. LOL

I'm married.

[DutchLiberal]

221. I envy your husband.

:P

[dustbunnie]

164. I think the pics posted upthread of women in short skirts and knee socks hot too.

And I'm a woman as well. Certainly no more "disturbing" than a man wanting to be catered to by a sexy, "motherly" nurse or maid. No more disturbing than a man who enjoys dressing as a woman as a precursor to sex. Perhaps my own fantasies of virile men in combat uniform are more disturbing since in real life I'm anti war and military. I must be sick. Or my daydream of being ravished by a sweaty, gorgeous hunk of muscle. How un-female-PC and cliched. I'm gonna have to go get my head looked at.

[Recursion]

165. Disturbing *because* it's sexy

If it weren't sexy it wouldn't disturb us at all. It is, so it does.

[gleaner]

167. I find it disturbing,,,

it kind of skeeks of older men pursuing girls who are very, very young and presumably too innocent to spurn their advances.

I think girls have all they can handle growing up, having boyfriends their own age and learning about life on their own terms without someone trying to manipulate them or mess them up in some way.

[GliderGuider]

176. Which side of it are we talking about here?

Dirty Catholic Schoolgirl, or prostitot?

The former tends to be a self-aware parody, the latter is scary-sick on too many levels to count.

[reflection]

177. Sexy is gaining on disturbing as people are getting off work.

Who would have thought the unemployed would be such prudes?
:sarcasm:

[pipoman]

178. I find it disturbing

that so many proclaimed liberals and progressives are as prudish as they appear to be in this thread. There is no mention of, in fact denial by the OP, that this has anything to do with sexualizing minors. Instead this is framed as some sort of sexual deviation when consenting adults role play or act on fetishes. So many liberals and progressives were quick to criticize the FCC and the proverbial 'family values' bunch over the LaToya Jackson boob uprising at the super bowl, yet want to wade into the minutia of adult sexual fantasy as if they are the moral authority. How is passing moral judgment on other people's bedroom activities any different than passing moral judgment on GLBT. I think there are many in this thread who need to get a grip and grow up. The rest of the world laughs at the US for our prudishness.

[woo me with science]

184. Sexual fantasies come in many different flavors.

Over half of women have fantasized about being raped, according to some studies. That doesn't mean they would actually like to be raped. The fantasy of being a highly desired prostitute is also extremely common among women, even though most are not on the street selling themselves. The fantasy of being so attractive that a man can't control himself is probably as common as grass even among strong, progressive women who would have difficulty admitting it.

Girls used to marry after menarche, and it is perfectly natural for men to have an attraction to a developing female body. Yet a man in our society today who admits even a passing physical attraction to a 16-year-old girl risks being demonized as a pedophile and a pervert, even if he would never, ever conceive of actually acting on such a fantasy. In such an atmosphere, of course the taboos grow in power and attraction.

The sexual hysterics among us are probably the ones most likely to react vehemently, either positively or negatively, to taboo fantasies. The more taboo the fantasy, the more creative and extreme the coping mechanisms can get for those who cannot tolerate that they would ever have such thoughts or imaginings.

Case in point: Recent preliminary studies suggest that, among people involved in BDSM and ageplay groups online, there is a remarkably high representation of women who claim to have multiple personality disorder (i.e., women who become involved in an ongoing process of recovering false "repressed memories" of childhood abuse).

Repressed memory narratives, particularly in multiple personality disorder/"dissociative identity disorder" tend to read like B-movie porn scenarios of domination and submission.

No, most people involved in memory recovery probably don't get involved actively in BDSM groups. However, I am coming to believe that domination and submission fantasies are almost ubiquitous among this population and may explain the initial attraction to abuse narratives and this type of destructive therapy.

Shame-filled disclosures of being aroused by fantasies of domination and submission are exceedingly common on internet boards for repressed memory "survivors." The disclosure is invariably followed by expressions of understanding from other "survivors" and conjecture that the abusers mixed pleasure and pain, causing the terrible fantasies. Never is the possibility of a rape fantasy in the absence of savage childhood abuse ever considered. In fact, repressed memory "survivors" are often the most Puritan about judging others' fantasies and assuming unremembered abuse based solely on the content of fantasies. This Puritan approach to sexual fantasy infects our society and therapy rooms, where a disclosed fantasy about rape is frighteningly likely to be followed by a search for buried memories to "explain" it.

I strongly suspect that BDSM groups are not full of women who have always remembered their (actual) abuse.

I strongly suspect that the recovery of abuse "memories" for many repressed memory survivors is a way to justify and cope with sexual fantasies in themselves that they find disgusting and unacceptable.

[pipoman]

195. I don't disagree

with most of this. It reminds me of something Sam Kennison said years ago. At the time I had a belief that GLBT was a choice, this line completely changed my view. He said, "how in the hell can one man fall in love with another man's hairy ass?", in the context of homosexuality has to be something other than choice. Now Sam was boorish at best, but the statement made me think. We all have certain things that turn us on and turn us off. If a person is turned on by, say, bondage (something that does absolutely nothing for me) could they change that preference? No, no matter how badly they wish to change that preference they cannot. They may choose not to act on it, but the preference is still there and always will be, even when that person is old and gray. After this epiphany delivered by the most unlikely person, Kennison, I have never taken a position of judgment against anyone for their sexual preferences or orientation as long as they practice them with other consenting adults or keep them to their own fantasy world, who gives a shit.

[woo me with science]

211. This is so well-stated, and I think you hit the nail right on the head.

Human sexuality is an incredibly rich and complex and imaginative phenomenon. When we begin judging people based on the content of their fantasies rather than their behavior, or when we decree with faux certainty that Fantasy A must have been caused by Experience B, we are on very shaky ground, indeed.

Thank you.

[dorkulon]

212. I endorse this sub-thread

Smartest comments here. Kudos.

[pipoman]

222. Thank you

I was never a fan of Kennison, but have never forgotten that he brought me to understand this issue.

[Withywindle]

196. ...

I strongly suspect that BDSM groups are not full of women who have always remembered their (actual) abuse.

You'd be very wrong about this. The BDSM community IS full of women who are very conscious of their survivor status, and are deliberately and artistically using safe, consensual power exchange to work through their issues. (And no, not always as subs, and yes, often very productively and enjoyably). Ask any kink-friendly therapist how common this is. There've been reams (heh) of essays by women about this.

[woo me with science]

208. Self-report is the sticking point here, though, IMO.

I'm certain some actual abuse victims get involved in BDSM also. However, based on what I have seen and experienced in 20 years of observing and working with genuine and faux survivors, I believe that women who have actually been brutalized sexually are less likely to seek to immerse themselves in such experiences than those who are creating recovered memories.

There is a famous statement by a therapist on the recovered memory problem, that is often echoed by reputable therapists in sexual abuse treatment. She stated that when she ran groups for abuse survivors, the participants invariably sorted themselves into two groups. The first group had always remembered their abuse, and they were primarily interested in moving beyond it and building healthy lives. The second group was comprised of women involved in recovering buried memories of abuse. The first group could not endure being in the same room as the second, because they could not tolerate the constant drive to endlessly recover and recount and relive the "memories" of abuse.

I suspect the same dynamic is at work here.

[GliderGuider]

227. Childhood sexual abuse and BDSM

Some survivors get involved in BDSM before the memories surface, or at least before they surface fully. Perhaps it's a way of giving their pre-conscious self-image (especially aspects like shame, self-loathing and powerlessness) some kind of quasi-acceptable channel, in order to release the power of the repressed psychic energy before it blows up and ruptures the Self. Once the memories surface the psychodynamic changes dramatically of course, because the connection between the original, real abuse and the current ritualized self-abuse becomes conscious.

Dealing with childhood sexual abuse is very heavy work. Its success depends on the particular therapists and programs the survivor happens to encounter (i.e. a large degree of luck) as well as on the survivor's courage and commitment to their healing.

For the partner of someone going through this process, it can be a very harrowing experience. If anyone is in such a situation, I highly recommend the book Allies in Healing by Laura Davis.

I'm not a therapist or a psychologist, just a layman with some skin in the game (if you'll pardon the expression...)

[woo me with science]

233. The recovered memory process is a sham.

There is absolutely no good evidence to support the idea that an entire childhood of savage abuse can be repressed or dissociated away, only to be remembered in adulthood. The therapists have simply shifted their terminology following the debunking of the repressed memory movement and the Satanic Panic, and they now talk more about dissociation than repression. However, it is the very same process of suggestion and memory creation that leads people to believe they were savagely raped for years and never remembered any of it.

Yes, some people forget specific abuse memories and then recall them later. However, someone involved in a continuous process of memory "recovery" of a previously unsuspected torture chamber childhood has fallen victim to the recovered memory sham. And, yes, I believe that sexual fantasies they cannot accept in themselves, related to ageplay or domination and submission, can play a role in their being drawn to this particular cult in psychology.

[redqueen]

247. I'd be interested to see some psychologists' responses to this.

Or psychiatrists... any professional opinions, I mean.

[woo me with science]

261. Depends on whom you ask.

Women's centers, community centers, and private hospitals are still terribly infested with the recovered memory folks, because these are by and large the therapists who claim trauma specializations. It is also much, much cheaper to hire master's levels therapists who did their theses on "Sybil" or Freud's Dora than doctoral-level people who have actually studied development, human neuroscience, and memory.

Part of the problem is our current debacle of a corporate healthcare system. The past 30 years have encouraged an explosion in fly-by-night master's programs and professional schools of psychology where anyone can become a therapist.

In my visits to university-based doctoral programs in clinical psychology and psychiatry residency programs, I have seen gifted students warned away from a focus on trauma, precisely because the research in that area is considered so poor and the clinical institutions so diseased.

In general, studies have shown that belief in massive repression of abuse declines significantly with greater education level of the therapist.

[redqueen]

264. You keep qualifying some statements.... and broad-brushing others.

The recovered memory process -- all of it -- that's all a sham... but then you qualify that by saying that's when "entire" childhoods have allegedly been repressed? So what about when only parts of the childhood are repressed?

You say that, "Belief in "massive" repression decreases..." but what about when it's not "massive" repression?

[woo me with science]

270. The recovered memory process is a very specific process.

There is a difference between someone who forgets and then later recalls specific instances of abuse, and someone who becomes involved in a continuous process of recalling memory after memory, eventually revising their entire conception of their childhood and identity around this previously unsuspected abuse.

The latter process of continuous memory recovery is what I am talking about. It is a process based in suggestion, relatively predictable, and available for anyone to watch on "survivor" websites online, although the process is much clearer and more dramatic if you can visit an actual recovered memory group in your area.

People who become involved in this process don't usually recall an incident or two and then stop. It becomes a way of life and thinking, and you can generally tell how long a person has been involved in it by A) how severe and bizarre her memories have become, B) the degree and intensity of her focus on the topic of abuse in her life, and C) her level of confidence in her memories.

Newcomers usually doubt their memories and worry to therapists or fellow survivors that they must be making it all up. It takes a lot of time and persistence and sympathy and reassurance before someone can accept what they initially realize is fantasy. Like in any other cult-like endeavor, the survivor is often encouraged to cut off friends and family who express concern about the bizarre direction of therapy or question "her Truth." Recently, many recovered memory therapists have even co-opted the technique of "radical acceptance" (used in other therapies to teach people to deal with overwhelming real-life challenges) as a new way of teaching survivors to actively resist questioning their own memories, urging them to believe even when they don't yet believe.

When you see someone with "partial" repression, my guess is that either you are mislabeling normal forgetting, or she is involved in the recovered memory process but is simply early in her "healing journey." Check back in a few months or years, and she may have realized that she was raped daily by her father or that she was involved daily in a pedophile ring or satanic cult. I encourage you to visit these groups to see for yourself the process by which the memories expand and grow over time. Most survivor boards online have entire sections set aside for those who claim histories of satanic or other ritualized abuse and multiple personalities. These sorts of beliefs are not aberrant in recovered memory circles; they are mainstream.

[redqueen]

273. Ohhhhhhh...

I had no idea there were such things as these 'recovered memory groups'. Sounds kinda dangerous to me. And very sad.

Glad to know you aren't talking about the other stuff... I was taken aback at first, thinking that you were.

[woo me with science]

274. I am very careful to clarify now

that the process of ongoing memory recovery is no longer only initiated and perpetuated in therapy rooms. It is a process of influence, and it can take place through other forms of suggestion, such as social groups of other "survivors" recovering memories. The internet is a great way for people who have fantasies along these lines to connect with other people who can teach them about memory retrieval.

I have had reputable therapists tell me that they sometimes have clients come to them asking for help to retrieve abuse memories, because of having been introduced to the possibility through friends or online social groups.

I did not say it only happens in organized groups; I said that if you wish to observe the process first-hand, this is one option for doing it.

[GliderGuider]

269. That sounds like a personal opinion. So is mine.

My jury was out on this question for a long time. I have recently understood that it's not "universally" a sham -- after all nothing in human psychology is universal. Some survivors do suppress all memories of being abused, though they will retain access to non-abuse memories from the same time period. Because I have personal corroborative evidence of that possibility, I am now satisfied that the absolutist criticism of recovered memories is unwarranted, as when it's put in such unequivocal terms as you've used.

The use of such absolute terms implies to me that the critique is being used as a means to discredit allegations of abuse, and I think it behooves us to be very careful whenever we do that. If you were to say something a little more nuanced like, "Memory recovery processes can sometimes (or even often) result in false positives" I'd be a little more accommodating.

[woo me with science]

271. I have tried to qualify my statements over and over again

to say that I do believe in recovered memories in the sense that instances of abuse can be forgotten and then recalled. However, I stand by my statement that there is no good evidence for massive repression of an entire childhood of abuse. There simply isn't any.

"Some survivors do suppress all memories of being abused, though they will retain access to non-abuse memories from the same time period."

You have made a rather absolute statement yourself. However, I am quite sure that mine is better supported by the research.

I have written extensively on these boards before about the issue of corroboration in recovered memory cases.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

[GliderGuider]

275. My sample size is very small.

My statement was not absolute, due to my use of the word "some" in the line you quoted. In my case, that means "at least one". And yes, I understand about statistical validity and problems of corroboration. I'm not about to try and make policy on the basis of one case. I will take this one case as evidence that a complete dismissal of the notion of repressed memories of abuse is unwarranted.

I have no problem with agreeing to disagree.

[redqueen]

240. The issue is just the implication of fetishized children.

Rape fantasies don't involve that kind of implication. It's distasteful or shocking to some/most, sure... but not for the same reason... so the analogy doesn't hold up.

[woo me with science]

242. I think it absolutely does. It is all still a matter of taboo.

You missed my paragraph about changes in cultural mores regarding age of marriage. The stereotypical Catholic schoolgirl image is of a nubile teen with boobs hanging out of her prim sweater, not a six-year-old girl. Also please note the many other very good arguments here that suggest the taboo may have as much or more to do with power roles or innocence versus experience than age per se.

[redqueen]

245. Well if you read the thread, you will notice I have read those arguments.

And find them encouraging, as before I hadn't considered that aspect of it at all... it was completely overshadowed, for me, by the 'underage' context.

[woo me with science]

253. It's a good thread.

You brought up some good food for thought here, and the discussions are interesting.

[redqueen]

256. It's not as bad as it could have been, at least.

I do agree with you though... in addition to all the venom going back and forth, there were some quality posts. It's still unrec'd though so obviously we're not in the majority on this one. :P

[woo me with science]

272. I like DU.

:)

[Gwendolyn]

252. Yes, of course it does.

This type of role is completely wrapped up in innocence. That's why it's so popular at strip joints where the women are generally regarded as being jaded.

I'm surprised though, that anyone would associate this look with a six-year-old. I wore my school uniform up until the age of 17 (and then, good riddance!)

[woo me with science]

262. LOL.

My condolences. :)

[redqueen]

263. Why are you fixating on six-year-olds?

:wtf:

When I typed "children" I was thinking of 13-year-olds, actually.

[Gwendolyn]

283. It was in Woo's post.

I really don't think personally, that too many people are imagining themselves, or the other person, in the 13 range all that often either. There will always be pedophiles, but they seem to prefer the real thing.

[redqueen]

286. Ah, sorry... I missed that.

Pedophiles come in all kinds... some like them very young... some just prepubescent... some like the "nymphette" (e.g. Lolita)... which is usually considered to be somewhere around 13.

[Gwendolyn]

289. Interesting thread Redqueen.

I meant, most men probably enjoy seeing a 20-something (to 40 or 50-something if happily married and doing this at home) dressed up in school-girl garb and would be disgusted at seeing a sexualized 13-year-old wearing the same. Pedophiles on the other hand, prefer the 13-year-old, and a 20-something dressed that way wouldn't be what they're looking for.

I've also asked guys occasionally, "what's up with that school-girl schtick," and believe, after some years of listening and prompting, it comes down to this. Mostly it's an innocence/submissive thing. The school girl parody is popular in strip bars and porn because a man can envision her as fresh, naive and different from the rest of the women who's schtick is more overtly sexual. A woman playing someone younger is seen as pliant, non-judgmental and willing to "learn" from her older teacher. The whole French Maid thing is not far off. She also exudes submissiveness, and if you really look at it, that fantasy comes from not a great place. Historically, house maids were abused, coerced and raped, by their upper class masters. Now the connotations are more innocent, but still steeped in "top" and "bottom" roles.

Then there's also the clothing that evokes a time past, when boys used to watch gaggles of girls walking to school, with a mix of the fear/curiosity/excitement it evoked in them at that age. The knee socks, the plaid skirts (yech, if I never see a muddy plaid again it will be too soon) the crisp white blouses (we used to rip the ties off and open the first two buttons immediately after last bell)...these are all memories that get convoluted into adult desire. A friend of ours is quite open about his penchant for the Cheerleader fantasy, which is basically an offshoot of the Schoolgirl thing, and when asked, he said it reminds him of a time when it was really exciting to hide behind the bleachers and get to second base. When kissing all night was unbelievable and that memory stayed with him forever. I think his wife occasionally wears that stuff. I do know for sure he would seriously harm anyone he thought was brutalizing a young girl in any way.

That's why I don't find it disturbing, although I once did.

On the bright side of it all, at least men seem to have learned that there is absolutely NO woman on the planet who has EVER entertained a fetish for naked men in black office socks. :D

[DutchLiberal]

290. You hit the nail right on the head.

Well, I have no memories of school girls in uniforms, because we don't have them in The Netherlands (unfortunately ;)). But I'm sure the explanation goes for lots of American/British/Asian males. Your first two paragraphs explain it all very well, I think.

[redqueen]

300. lol re: black socks...

but they can be sexy too... heh, well for me... on the right guy :)

But seriously though... this 'innocence' BS also sets me off... because it seems to be reinforcing / encouraging that madonna/whore virgin/slut fuckassery.

That is one thing that seems to be really hard to get rid of... both in men and women.

[NashVegas]

307. It's a Shame You Had to Put Your Own Baggage Into An Otherwise Great Post

By pulling out the false "repressed" junk. It's real. It happens. Just because you, personally, have never experienced it doesn't mean no one else has.

Some people may be making it up but others aren't, and most people who aren't directly involved have no way of knowing otherwise, absent of any particularly damning evidence ... and the joke with the punchline that goes, "if that sheep says anything about me, it's a damned lie," is at least 30 years old.

There's enough BDSM material out there that shows hardcore BDSMers, on the dominant side, not all that differently from child molesters: tell an attention-starved kid they're "special" and they'll do almost anything you ask.

[woo me with science]

310. Thank you for the compliment.

I won't stop posting about this malpractice. It is just as misguided and damaging as lobotomies were in the 50's, and people need to be aware of it so that they can protect themselves.

I know you believe, but the research does not support what you believe, and thousands of people are still hurt by recovered memory myths every year.

I am sorry you know someone who has been hurt by it, too.

[NashVegas]

312. There You Go Again

You think you know what goes on in everyone's mind, and you think you have the right to give blanket judgment on all circumstances? Or perhaps you've just never spoken to an abuser who said something along the lines of "I know something went on, but I don't remember exactly and don't want to."

And you're just so freaking wrong. There's not always no corroborating evidence or witnesses.

You're incorrect to state research does not support the authenticity. There's plenty out there; you just happen to reject it.

[woo me with science]

313. No, actually there isn't.

That is why belief in recovered memories declines precipitously with the education level of the therapist. Yes, there are a lot of "studies" out there that claim support for massive repression of abuse, and to the ignorant they can seem very convincing. I can also show you a multitude of "studies" that claim to support facilitated communication, ESP, and homeopathy. When you are unable to evaluate the quality of research, you can find impressive-looking "science" to support almost anything.

[The Gunslinger]

185. I'm going to need to see some photos before I decide.

[ismnotwasm]

186. Stupid

School girls are generally looking at school boys, and vice verse. Perfectly appropriate, right?


The presumably older folks--and the older the creepier--enchanted by a "sexualized schoolgirl outfit" got issues.

[Lucian]

187. Sexy as hell.

[sofa king]

188. Why, it's sexy AND disturbing, of course.

And thank you, Japan, for that contribution to human sexuality. Oh, and the tentacle thing, too.

[BuddhaGirl]

191. sexy!!

and my hubby LOVES the couple of schoolgirl outfits I have :evilgrin:

[pipoman]

194. Do you find this disturbing too?

Of coarse nobody looks lustfully at these women, and anyone who does is just a fucking perv. They wear these outfits because it's hot in Texas, huh?

[Withywindle]

197. Neither.

It doesn't really do anything for me either way. I never had to wear a school uniform, and I kind of raise my eyebrows at people making kids dress like that, but it doesn't really register as either a turn-on or a turn-off when adults put on the costume. I think it's a harmless enough fantasy for people who are turned on by it, though.

Actually, come to think of it, guys in schoolgirl (yes, GIRL) uniforms are kind of hot...I suppose I have Japan to blame for that.

[iris27]

209. guys in schoolGIRL uniforms...mmm, yes...

but then I always have been a fan of screwing with gendered concepts of all kinds.

[redqueen]

258. No pics of hot guys in those outfits on the net.

Not that I could find, anyway.

Drat.

[Mythsaje]

198. It does nothing for me...

I actually find women closer to my own age to be more attractive than the young ones, but I suppose it's not really up to me to decide what kinks are and are not acceptable. We all have 'em, near as I can tell. As long as the schoolgirl thing is just fantasy and not reality, I gotta say--whatever.

[Dead_Parrot]

201. Fwoar.

Actually, the outfit is provocative (on the right person).

The question is, is it provocative because it is worn by schoolgirls - or is it provocative anyway and schoolgirls are made to wear it?

Now that's disturbing.

[proteus_lives]

205. Depends on who is wearing it.

[Kurska]

214. Hot as hell, especially on a guy

I'm not a crossdresser myself, but I'll be damned if some guys don't look hot as hell doing it.

[bridgit]

215. Other: usury, a primer for meaningless patriarchal sex

[Monk06]

216. If you're 40 and have the maturity of a 13 year old boy then it is WAY HOT

[krispos42]

217. A WOMAN in the outfit is sexy

A girl... not so much.

But not specifically because of the schoolgirl outfit is a woman sexy... the self-confidence and sexuality to wear such a costume and enjoy it is inheirently sexy regardess of garb.


I noticed Megan Fox mentioned in this thread, complete with upcoming movie poster. What about her is sexy? Mostly, her attitude. Physically, she's good but not spectacular (although I'll give her kudos for the hair). But when you see her move, it's HOW she moved, how she talks, her posture, and the way that she carries herself that draws the eye. Schoolgirl costume, police officer costume, shorts and a tank top, snow pants and navy peacoat, or a flannel nightie... she has "it".


Women usually have that confidence, girls don't. Therefore, women will be sexier than girls.

IMHO, at least. YMMV.

[Lagomorph]

218. Well, as long as it's Disney, it must be OK

[DutchLiberal]

223. But that's not a schoolgirl outfit...

[Lagomorph]

277. Good Point

It's really just a 16 year old school girl.

Ya caught me.

[Stryguy]

219. You can compare this to a FRENCH MAID OUTFIT.

When my wife tosses on the French Maid outfit I don't have fantasies about actually doing a maid in my home. It's her way of saying I'm yours sexually and I want you.

When she puts on a stripper type outfit I don't pretend like I just picked her up at a strip club.

When she puts on her "I dream of Jeannie" outfit I don't pretend she's Barbara Eden.

If you want her to wear the outfit so you can pretend she is, in fact, a young school girl who's underage, then your messed up. If you want her to wear the outfit because it's like her saying "Yeah I'm your naughty girl and tonight is going to be all about you"

Well then, you're a lucky SOB. :)

[lukasahero]

235. Just out of curiosity - what outfits do you wear for your wife? eom

[Stryguy]

285. Typically I do the

Typically I do the, slightly overweight work-a-holic middle aged white guy.
:)

[reflection]

224. And sexy wins by a nose! n/t

[Blue_Tires]

226. other:

does nothing for me either way...never has

[AngryAmish]

228. Other: At least they are not Furries.

[Kurska]

231. How bout furries in school girl outfits? n/t

[AngryAmish]

234. I just puked.

Thanks.

[DutchLiberal]

314. What are 'furries'?

Seriously, never heard of it.

[LibDemAlways]

232. At my daughter's high school, which is probably pretty typical, the girls

don't wear sexualized school girl outfits which are probably most commonly found in rock videos. They do, however, wear short-shorts with their butt cheeks hanging out and tank tops that leave nothing to the imagination. Not so much disturbing as distracting and inappropriate for the setting.

[Echo In Light]

249. I remember girls in the 70s/early 80s wearing those terry cloth short-shorts

Then the pendulum shifted rightward in Reagan/Bush's "Greed is G(o)od" 80s, and the short-shorts were out of fashion.

It can be attractive, or even interesting in a sociopolitical sense, when women wear revealing clothing ... I've certainly nothing against it! lol

What turns me off is when there's a marked absence of understanding the crucial differences between sexual liberation and sexual exploitation. The schoolgirl look, aside from its assortment of underlying symbolism, is on par w/the general Empty V, hip hop culture 'slut' look for women, or the Hooters shirt types, etc.

Again, to each their own (susceptibility to corporate culture directives), but when the 'sex' is little more than affectation, and selling one's self as a Product, than in my estimation it simply isn't "sexy," it's a marketing pitch coupled w/gender propaganda fulfillment.

[redqueen]

238. Isn't it interesting how those who find this look sexy are seemingly MORE predisposed to castigating

everyone else?

One would think it would be the opposite, considering how it's all "prudes" and "hysterical" people who seem to be more put off by the implication of fetishizing underage people.

Anyone else noticing this?

[Buzz Clik]

241. It's no surprise that this is the ultimate purpose of this thread.

You really weren't interested in knowing whether people found it sexy when women dressed as school girls. Your interest was trying to push this to some sort of fantasy about "fetishizing underage people". This smacks of Rick Santorum's extrapolation from gay marriage to sex with turtles.

[redqueen]

244. Yes, you're a total genius and you figured me out!

:pats you on the head:

:eyes:

[Buzz Clik]

260. Yes, my dear, I did. And I don't stand alone.

[bridgit]

250. Could happen: ribbed French ticklers for tots, Biofreeze, and a pinch of sand, friend or foe?

[DutchLiberal]

287. Oh please, stop the mind-reading.

And leave her alone. I don't know why you feel the urge to trash her everywhere in this thread, but it's getting old, and frankly it's just very childish.

In another thread, I said, using hyperbole, that all men find school outfits sexy. So she decided to start a poll. If you feel attacked by it, that's your problem, not ours.

[Buzz Clik]

303. What is your problem?

In a thread with over 300 replies, I have a grand total of 11 responses, including this one. I have five responses to her, two of which were replying to comments she initiated. That means that my "childish trashing her everywhere in this thread" amounts to a grand total of 1% of the replies. Have you been making similar to comments with other people that she's clashed with on this thread?

It seems to me she is quite capable of taking care of herself, so back the hell off.

You should be far more concerned that you are the one who started this mess.

[DutchLiberal]

306. That last line proves how ridiculous your comments are.

And you are the only one who is following her around the thread and the comments you make are personal attacks. You should stop them.

[Echo In Light]

246. I noticed yesterday some of the 'sexy' re came w/barbs intended for those who don't find it 'sexy'

[redqueen]

268. Ironic, isn't it?

Considering what lengths some go to to paint the other side as 'hysterical'. Heh.

Thank goodness for the level-headed responses... though the axe-grinders are definitely entertaining!
:rofl:

[Buzz Clik]

293. Ironic? It's an axe with two edges.

Here's a sampling of posts on this thread highly critical of those who find it sexy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6276971#6276987
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6276971#6279591
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6276971#6279710
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6276971#6284937
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6276971#6277049
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6276971#6278164
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6276971#6277248

The really bizarre part is your role in this -- sometimes agreeing with those who think it's disgusting, agreeing with some who feel it's no one's business, and being very selective in who you hammer for their responses.

I'm glad I took the time to read the entire thread. It's a study in schizophrenia.

[redqueen]

301. Did I say it was only one side doing it? You have issues.

As for schizophrenia... yes, I suppose it is rather difficult for you to wrap your mind around the concept of having nuanced views. Some people are like that... and yeah... you fit the profile perfectly.

[Buzz Clik]

304. Nuanced. Is that the word for it?

Opening post declares that the schoolgirl outfits are flatly disgusting, and you unconditionally agreed. You later conveniently declare that they don't bother you in the slightest and sexual taste is personal and should never be criticized.

Shit... now you're wasting my time.

Have the last word.

[redqueen]

305. Yes, I used that word to describe my evolving opinion on the subject.

Not le mot juste but as I really don't care too much about communicating with you, I didn't spend much time finding the right word.

I'm so not surprised you couldn't manage to piece together that my views evolved as I read the opinions and thoughts on this thread. Despite the fact that I said as much at least three separate times.

Good day... ...

[DutchLiberal]

279. No, everybody is castigating everybody.

Except me. ;)

[dorkulon]

299. I don't know. I'd rather be called a prude than a pedophile. nt

[lovepg]

251. Brazilians are way worse! They creep me out big time. talk about looking ..

looking like a little girl jeeesh. (Just to be clear i am not talking about people from the country of Brazil.)

[Iggo]

266. Oh!

Even after you explained it, I was still "Huh?"

Now I get it.

(Joke approaching on landing-strip six-niner.)

[Burma Jones]

254. Depends on whether one of my Daughters is wearing it......

[silverback]

259. Boys first loves...usually schoolgirls.

I don't think it indicates anything more disturbing than remembering your first time fondly.

[NeedleCast]

280. There's where people tell other people what they should find sexually attractive are always fun

Not, in general, refering to the OP, but some of the responses.

[redqueen]

281. Yes... there are people on both sides doing that.

It's pretty silly... but for me this thread has been an eye-opener and I'm glad I started it... I almost didn't. :)

[BlooInBloo]

292. Still sexy.

[Gwendolyn]

297. Can you ever give an opinion... without being a dick?

:)

[johnaries]

298. Oh, yeah, like I'm falling for this one. I was married, once.

This is one of those "you can't win" questions. No matter what you answer, you're still wrong. Fuck that!

[redqueen]

302. Ah come on.

What is some people's problem with discussing their views?

Sure, some people are going to be assholes about it... and say something that is over the top or whatever... but so what? It's fucking text on a screen.

When I started this thread, I only saw this outfit as implying that the fantasy was an underage woman... I totally missed the power thing cause of my past... and there's also the whole virgin/whore bullshit. But after starting this thread, I realize that some guys are not even thinking about the virgin/whore shit... or underage women... it's just a power thing, which I completely understand and enjoy.

So don't be so shy... "sexy" is winning anyway.

Besides, how can you not "win" by saying it's disturbing... but then that's what other guys have said and they get attacked for just spouting shit to look good. Is that what you meant by you can't win? The guys who think it's sexy will attack you?

[Mystayya]

309. It's just fantasy and sometimes roleplay

As long as actual school girls are not involved I don't care. What people do in their own intimate life is not my concern, even if it is something that personally makes me feel icky, as long as everyone is consenting and of age.

[RedCloud]

311. I tried to google for photos but was sent back to this thread!

I guess my kids have run roughshod over me during the past 15 years and since the gals are finally past this stage, I voted "other".

Still my oldest thinks she can shake her upper torso and the world will be at her beckon call. Grrr!