Here's what we're up against - I was speaking with my doctor's

[hedgehog]

wife, a casual acquaintance for some years. This is a smart woman. She told me that the health bill (Not bills) included a provision requiring doctors to sit down with their elderly patients to discuss methods to speed their deaths (she didn't use the words mandatory assisted suicide, but that's what she meant.)I asked her where she'd heard it, and she indicated it must be true because she heard it from a former lieutenant governor. I'm guessing she's referring to former Lt.Governor Betsy McCaughey. McCaughey is currently a fellow of the extreme right wing Hudson Institute. According to Wiki, her articles were a major factor in the defeat of the Clinton Health plan. If I read Wiki correctly, she is the original source for the rumor that Obama wants to kill your grandma.

I reminded the doctor's wife of the Karen Ann Quinlan case, and informed her that the only change is to give doctors a code so they can charge for their time spent counseling patients on Living Wills.

[MADem]

1. She's obviously not as smart as you credited her, is she! I mean, come ON.

Only a stupid person would believe that. She simply must "appear" smart. There are people who are like that.

[Frustratedlady]

6. They are getting the word out somehow.

We had a RWr post a warning on another group about how Obama's healthcare plan would include assisted suicide of the elderly. He was convinced it was true.

I'm suspecting there might be a connection to the "Texas Ranger" riding back into the picture...can't think of his name right now.

We are doing our best to squelch this rumor whenever it rears its ugly head.

[hedgehog]

22. She handles the business side of her husband's practice and

breeds award winning dogs on the side. She may be misinformed, but she is not stupid.

[MADem]

40. She can add and subtract, and feed a dog and notice when it doesn't feel well.

That's hardly Nobel Prize material.

I'm still not convinced that she's very smart.

[Maru Kitteh]

52. So she's willfully ignorant, AND cruel.

Lovely.

Vote with your pocketbook.

[Chulanowa]

23. Well, now, people work with what they have

And if what they have happens to be bad information, I can't blame them for working with it. Now if she had closed ears and started going "LALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU!" or hte like when her bad information was corrected, then one could question her intelligence.

[hedgehog]

37. EXACTLY! Instead of mocking her or her source,

I explained that the proposal is meant to pay doctors who take the time to review options with their patients. We also discussed people in our families who refused heroic measures at the end of their lives. She also mentioned the vet who offered one of her do0gs chemotherapy even though the vet knew it wouldn't be effective, and went on to state that the vet was just looking for extra money.

So now, this person who sees a lot of elderly people in the course of her day has new information and the idea has been planted that the people who oppose the health bill are doing so because it will interfere with their profits.

[MADem]

42. If this woman works for her doctor-husband, I should think she would "have" a bit more than

what she spit out.

That's just stupidity, IMO. On its face, it makes no sense. An inquring mind (or at least not an obtuse one) would question that sort of lunacy straight away, not take it at face value.

[Chulanowa]

51. So to be intelligent, you are never allowed to be mistaken or misinformed?

sorry, not buying that. Even the best screw up.

[The Backlash Cometh]

32. She's referring to this page:

425
1 ‘‘(FF) advance care planning consultation (as
2 defined in subsection (hhh)(1));’’; and
3 (B) by adding at the end the following new
4 subsection:
5 ‘‘Advance Care Planning Consultation
6 ‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the
7 term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a con8
sultation between the individual and a practitioner de9
scribed in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning,
10 if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has
11 not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such
12 consultation shall include the following:
13 ‘‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of ad14
vance care planning, including key questions and
15 considerations, important steps, and suggested peo16
ple to talk to.
17 ‘‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of ad18
vance directives, including living wills and durable
19 powers of attorney, and their uses.
20 ‘‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the
21 role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
22 ‘‘(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list
23 of national and State-specific resources to assist con24
sumers and their families with advance care plan25
ning, including the national toll-free hotline, the ad-
VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00425 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
July 14, 2009 (12:51 p.m.)
F:\P11\NHI\TRICOMM\AAHCA09_001.XML
f:\VHLC\071409\071409.140.xml (444390|2)

[Warpy]

2. Right now, the counseling on living wills is done by nursing staff

on admission to the hospital. Doctors aren't addressing end of life issues as much as they should and some are downright offended when the patient brings it up.

Elderly people aren't the only ones being asked. Every single adult patient who comes into the hospital is asked about a living will and whether they want to complete the paperwork while they're in the hospital.

[csziggy]

25. When I went in for outpatient surgery, the clinic gave me the forms for a living will

And for a Health Care Advocate (Health Care Power of Attorney) - June of this year. They provided no counseling, but recommend that all patients fill out the papers. I already had my forms from previous years, so provided copies of those. When I had surgery at the same facility in January 2007, they did not include this paper work in their packet.

[mopinko]

26. funny, the only time i was asked about this was at a catholic hospital

maybe it is buried in my paperwork with my usual docs. they have everything computerized, so those annoying repeated forms aren't necessary. but i had a procedure at a catholic hospital recently and they had a 3 page form asking did i have one, did i want to fill one out, etc. just found that amusing.

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. Being asked and being forced are two different things.

They are being told by right-wing radio that it will be mandatory every five years to discuss this with their doctors.

[Warpy]

46. Telling their doctors to discuss it is not forcing the patient to do anything

and right wing radio is being disingenuous, as usual.

[hedgehog]

47. The worst part is that an attempt to pay doctors who take the time

to discuss this with patients has been described as doctors being forced to try to talk people into euthanasia.

How many elderly or sick people have a close relationship with a lawyer? The person they know and trust is their doctor. Their doctor is the one who can tell them what is possible or even probable. I think by now most people have a family story of a loved one who chose to go quietly or another who ended up "hooked up to machines".

[The Backlash Cometh]

49. I don't know who came up with the idea, but, I think a little counter-offensive is in order.

For one thing, if a person doesn't want to hear the death script, they shouldn't have to.

[Pirate Smile]

3. Stupid is contagious and the RW is virulent.

Luckily, there is a significant segment of the population who is immune but we really need a vaccination for the people susceptible to "teh stupid".

[WillieW]

5. . but you can't fix stupid.

[Pirate Smile]

12. Quarantine?

[SammyWinstonJack]

19. .

:evilgrin:

[fishnfla]

4. the only quality of life that lady and her husband are interested in is their own

eom

[hedgehog]

43. You shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know.

This fellow treats farm workers who are likely to be undocumented workers, hardly a source for big bucks.

[mnhtnbb]

7. Some people will never learn not to believe everything they hear--

especially from someone with an agenda. It's easy enough to look up the bill on-line and find
the section that discusses living wills. The dittoheads are too lazy, though, to undertake any research
and really set themselves up to be fooled. Ignorant and proud of it.

[sinkingfeeling]

8. Have her point out that section in the actual draft. Here's the pdf

http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

[The Backlash Cometh]

34. It's page 425

425
1 ‘‘(FF) advance care planning consultation (as
2 defined in subsection (hhh)(1));’’; and
3 (B) by adding at the end the following new
4 subsection:
5 ‘‘Advance Care Planning Consultation
6 ‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the
7 term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a con8
sultation between the individual and a practitioner de9
scribed in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning,
10 if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has
11 not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such
12 consultation shall include the following:
13 ‘‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of ad14
vance care planning, including key questions and
15 considerations, important steps, and suggested peo16
ple to talk to.
17 ‘‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of ad18
vance directives, including living wills and durable
19 powers of attorney, and their uses.
20 ‘‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the
21 role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
22 ‘‘(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list
23 of national and State-specific resources to assist con24
sumers and their families with advance care plan25
ning, including the national toll-free hotline, the ad-
VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00425 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
July 14, 2009 (12:51 p.m.)
F:\P11\NHI\TRICOMM\AAHCA09_001.XML
f:\VHLC\071409\071409.140.xml (444390|2)

[BlooInBloo]

9. (shrug) She's either stupid or a liar. Take your pick.

[hedgehog]

13. I have to defend this woman - I suspect she read this in the

Wall Street Journal and assumed that a reputable paper would not publish outright lies. If we dismiss all the people who disagree with us as stupid, we lose. We need to get these people on our side. I also discussed how Obama is pushing to cut the cost of college education and medical school. This is a subject dear to this woman's heart. While her son is managing to save money going to grad school, her daughter is going into incredible debt going to medical school.

[ecstatic]

28. If she's not stupid, then she's so blinded by hate for Obama

that she's willing to believe anything. I hate Bush with a passion, but I wouldn't believe such a BS rumor even if it was Bush who was being accused of planning it. It's called common sense. Even if a president was evil enough to come up with something like that, it would also require millions of willing volunteers to play along (all of whom have elderly friends and relatives).

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. You are a very intelligent and wise person.

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. Think again.

425
1 ‘‘(FF) advance care planning consultation (as
2 defined in subsection (hhh)(1));’’; and
3 (B) by adding at the end the following new
4 subsection:
5 ‘‘Advance Care Planning Consultation
6 ‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the
7 term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a con8
sultation between the individual and a practitioner de9
scribed in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning,
10 if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has
11 not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such
12 consultation shall include the following:
13 ‘‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of ad14
vance care planning, including key questions and
15 considerations, important steps, and suggested peo16
ple to talk to.
17 ‘‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of ad18
vance directives, including living wills and durable
19 powers of attorney, and their uses.
20 ‘‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the
21 role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
22 ‘‘(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list
23 of national and State-specific resources to assist con24
sumers and their families with advance care plan25
ning, including the national toll-free hotline, the ad-
VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00425 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
July 14, 2009 (12:51 p.m.)
F:\P11\NHI\TRICOMM\AAHCA09_001.XML
f:\VHLC\071409\071409.140.xml (444390|2)

[BlueIdaho]

10. What Contemptible Bullshit...

The Dr's wife has to WANT to believe this nonsense. No rational thinking person would ever buy this load of crap unless it fit some larger purpose - like handing our President his "Waterloo."

[hedgehog]

11. Here's what Betsy McCaughey wrote in the New York Post:

One troubling provision of the House bill compels seniors to submit to a counseling session every five years (and more often if they become sick or go into a nursing home) about alternatives for end-of-life care (House bill, p. 425-430). The sessions cover highly sensitive matters such as whether to receive antibiotics and "the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration."

This mandate invites abuse, and seniors could easily be pushed to refuse care. Do we really want government involved in such deeply personal issues?

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07172009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/os_broken_promises_179667.htm

and in the Wall Street Journal:

While the House bill being pushed by the president reduces access to such cures and specialists, it ensures that seniors are counseled on end-of-life options, including refusing nutrition where state law allows it (pp. 425-446). In Oregon, some cancer patients are being denied care by the state that could extend their lives and instead are afforded the benefit of physician-assisted suicide instead.

Medicare has made living to a ripe old age a good value. ObamaCare will undo that.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203517304574303903498159292.html

And on Lou Dobbs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--DbIZlJyvo


The Wiki article gives several links to such sites as Bob Garfield's "On the Media" that give absolutely blistering critiques of her lies.

[BlooInBloo]

14. Um, re-posting the lies that people are saying doesn't make your friend look any better.

[hedgehog]

21. The point is that the lies are presented in an apparently

reputable source with no comment. Read the original article carefully and you'll see it's full of weasel words that imply more than they state. The lie is repeated and amplified in later articles and on television appearances. The rebuttals appear on left wing Web sites or Public Radio. This is how well educated, reasonable people can be brought to believe absolute fantasy.


How many people were and are absolutely convinced that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11 even though you'd be hard put to find a direct statement?

If we are to overcome the Republican Lie Machine, we need to understand how it works and drop our contempt of anyone who disagrees with us.

[valerief]

15. If you think she's smart, then you're not the sharpest tack in the box.

No offense, but it drives me nutty when people tell me that stupid, gullible people like the doctor's wife are "smart". They're not. They're stupid.

[BlooInBloo]

18. Be fair. She could just be a lying sack of shit.

[valerief]

20. Ah, so true, and my stupidity is now showing. But I know I'm stupid. nt

[dugaresa]

16. at the one town hall I attended the crazy euthanasia woman

was ranting that Obama's people were going to visit her house ever 5 year to teach her methods to kill herself.

It was surreal. She started to get really spastic and started saying stuff like, "their going to teach me to withhold food and water! and that isn't right!"

yeah, someone is going to come to your house to teach you to withold food and water.

only because an attorney was present did the congressman state that it was just a measure to encourage people to have a Living Will.

[LeftishBrit]

17. If 'socialized medicine' always leads to euthanasia of the elderly...

why is it that in Britain, which has had the NHS for 60 years, there are 'right-to-die' campaign groups campaigning for the right - not even to have assisted suicide here, that obviously isn't going to happen - but to be able to travel to places that do have it, without the risk of your relatives being prosecuted for helping you?

I see no signs of even legal, let alone mandated, euthanasia for the elderly. Grr. Some of these ideas are infuriating!

[Fire1]

24. These fuckers spread like a damn disease!!! n/t

[DURHAM D]

27. Everyone needs a Living Will.

We all have our own ideas about end of life issues. If you don't make your own decisions your relatives or your DOCTOR will make them for you.

My Mother died a few months ago. She had first filled out her Living Will many years ago when my parents moved into a retirement community. The community encourages all residents to fill one out and to update it from time to time. After my Mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's she updated it again. She knew what she wanted - no feed tubes, no resuscitation, no extreme measures (hospital stays), nothing.

Myself, my Dad and my siblings thank her every day for teaching us how to address end of life questions and not forcing us to make hard decisions at a time when she knew we would be emotionally impaired.

If you love your family - do a Living Will.

The other part - her Living Will saved a lot of money that would have otherwise gone to the health care industry.

[hedgehog]

30. "her Living Will saved a lot of money that would have otherwise gone to the health care industry"

That's the reason for this lie and that's the info we've got to get out to people!

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. You all need to start taking this seriously. I hate it when you all brush these lunacies off.

They are being told this by the right-wing talk radio and the right-wingers are believing it. They said that on page 425 there is a clause that says it will be mandatory to meet with their doctors every five years to discuss ways to terminate life. I figured someone would post it eventually on DU, and that snopes would eventually debunk it.

[hedgehog]

36. The right wingers are spreading it and amplifying it, but the people

we need to worry about are in the center. If Rush Limbaugh had come out with this first, it wouldn't have gotten any traction. But the apparent source is a former lieutenant governor presented as an expert on health care issues. She looks respectable, speaks calmly and is treated with respect. She has articles in publications such as the Wall Street Journal and the New Republic*. Many people who read those publications have no idea she also writes for the New York Post. "Adjunct Fellow at the Hudson Institute." That sounds as impressive as hell if you don't know what the Hudson Institute is.



* The New Republic got a prize for her article on Clinton's Health Plan. Later editors repudiated the article as trash. It sounded good at the time though, and did its damage.

[The Backlash Cometh]

39. Unfortunately, there is a page that provides just enough information

to fan the flames:

425
1 ‘‘(FF) advance care planning consultation (as
2 defined in subsection (hhh)(1));’’; and
3 (B) by adding at the end the following new
4 subsection:
5 ‘‘Advance Care Planning Consultation
6 ‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the
7 term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a con8
sultation between the individual and a practitioner de9
scribed in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning,
10 if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has
11 not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such
12 consultation shall include the following:
13 ‘‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of ad14
vance care planning, including key questions and
15 considerations, important steps, and suggested peo16
ple to talk to.
17 ‘‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of ad18
vance directives, including living wills and durable
19 powers of attorney, and their uses.
20 ‘‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the
21 role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
22 ‘‘(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list
23 of national and State-specific resources to assist con24
sumers and their families with advance care plan25
ning, including the national toll-free hotline, the ad-
VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00425 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
July 14, 2009 (12:51 p.m.)
F:\P11\NHI\TRICOMM\AAHCA09_001.XML
f:\VHLC\071409\071409.140.xml (444390|2)

[gleaner]

33. This again?

I have seen this in at least one other thread. This is one of the favorite talking points of Freepers in the anti health minority. It is completely untrue and also infuriating the way it keeps popping up.

If people would think a bit and remember that we are living in a country where you have to have an advanced directive in order to keep medical personnel from taking measures to resuscitate you if you are at the point of then. Even with an advanced directive the right to die is not guaranteed. Remember Terry Schiavo in Floria who was brain dead, and how this same lunatic fringe funded her family during many attempts to keep her husband from carrying out her last wishes. She had put nothing in writing, and that is when doctors started recommending to all patients that they have living wills or advanced directives so that no one could question their wishes.

That is just following the patients' wishes and letting the disease or accident causing terminal damage to take the course it is going to follow eventually anyway. Now think about Euthanasia. Remember Dr. Kevorkian and how he was eventually imprisoned for murder because Euthanasia is not a legal defense even if the patient asks for it? If you want to be Euthanized you have to go to another country where it is legal and where a doctor will do it for you. Now all of a sudden, our government which has sustained this position through election after election is supposedly doing a complete about face and trying to force people to terminate their lives "for their own good?" It simply does not compute. It is an urban legend like kidney stealing was several years back.

The people spreading this rumor know that it is a toxic lie to help defeat viable health insurance reform. Many of them are probably the same people who oppose abortion, calling it murder and who try to stop stem cell research by claiming that zygotes are more important than people who are already born and who are living with illnesses and disabilities. Why do they keep promulgating the same lies over and over? Because they are acting at the behest of the insurance companies who will seemingly do anything to keep the present system intact so that their huge profits will not be deflated by even one iota of consideration or fairness for the American people.

Sorry, but this one really, really makes me froth at the mouth.

:nuke:

[hedgehog]

38. I hope you understand that I am presenting this as a heads up.

I had no idea where this garbage came from before today. The next time it comes up, I'll be much better prepared to show someone how the Big Lie was built.

[gleaner]

44. No, I never thought it was you......

I thought someone was giving you bad information and you were trying to warn us. This is originating with the same people who organized and set in motion the tea baggers and the birthers. The most lunatic of the lunatic fringe. The doctor's wife who was passing it on to you, should be well and truly ashamed of herself.

I say that, because doctors are more aware of the laws and practices regarding Euthanasia and the use of advanced directives than anyone. They encounter life and death almost every day. They pay hefty fees for malpractice insurance and sometimes it even inhibits what legal actions they take regarding patient treatments. If her husband talks to her at all, she would know this too. You could ask her where she got her information, and if her husband is aware of it and supports Euthanasia for anyone himself. Tell her you would like to ask her husband what he thinks of it yourself, because you post in a forum where the members have a keen interest in health care issues. I doubt she would mention it to you again. ;)

Sorry for the misunderstanding, and thanks for the heads up.:toast: We need all the information we can get.

[prolesunited]

41. They must be e-mailing doctors

because my dad was spouting the same nonsense at his last visit.

[Odin2005]

45. the stupid going around about the supposed evils of "socialist healthcare" is really pathetic.

I got into an argument at work involving this crap. :banghead:

[Stephanie]

48. Betsy McCaughey Ross is batshit crazy

She was lieutenant governor of New York, but was jettisoned by Pataki because she was so goddamned nuts. At one event she stood the whole time while everyone was sitting. Why? Nobody knows. Her whole career was bankrolled by her steel billionaire husband Wilbur Ross. When she tried to run for office again he pulled the plug and she was unable to finance her campaign. She's the Orly Taitz of New York politics.

And your answer regarding changing the code is the best I've seen to date - is that all it is? I knew it was about counseling for living wills and health proxies, but I didn't know it was just about allowing doctors to charge for their time. When I worked for a family lawyer, everyone who came in for a will also went home with a living will and health care proxie.

[HughMoran]

50. Stupid uninformed piece of shit wh*&%

:wtf: