Missing the point, Ed. Michael Vick should not be playing in the NFL because...

[Shagbark Hickory]

He's a scum bucket. He was a scum bucket long before he was caught torturing animals and running an illegal dog fighting operation.
He tried to smuggle drugs on an airplane then bribed the cops to make that problem go away and all the other headlines escape me at the moment but I live in atlanta and he's had a lot of press for his antics.

There's more to being a football player than just playing the game. People look up to these players. Many young people.
Vick does not make a good role model and I would have told you that months before he was busted.

Out of the 300 million people in this country, surely there has to be a few that are decent people, good role models and can play football well enough to be in the NFL.

Is this P.O.S. rehabilitated? Does he deserve to get on with his life? It's irrelevant. He doesn't being in the NFL because he's not a good role model.

(This is in response to Ed Shultz's segment on Michael Vick)

[Ohio Joe]

1. Why Yes!

Because holding a persons crimes against them after they have done their time is a good thing :crazy:

[Shagbark Hickory]

22. You didn't read my post.

He never belonged in the NFL because he's a bad role model.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. You know by that puritan standard, half the players

and a good chunk of the coaching staff doesn't either.

[Ohio Joe]

31. Oh... well thats a much better idea!

Lets ban douchebags from being allowed to play sports... and drive, that ones that drive piss me off much more then the ones that play sports... In fact... lets make it a crime to be a douchebag... Can I decide who is a douchebag and who is not? Because otherwise forget it.

[Chisox08]

37. Athletes are not role models

You have to be a damn fool to pattern your life after any athlete. Parents need to take responsiblity over their own children instead of blaming it someone else when little Billy screws up. His job is to play football and nothing else.
If being a good role model was a job requirement then most athletes would not be playing professional sports.
Back to Vick, yes he committed a crime and he served his time. He should be allowed to play football again. Donte Stallworth will play again this year and he killed a human. I don't hear any outrage over that.

[Shagbark Hickory]

39. Yes they are.

http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?id=prod2663032&CATID=304109&skuid=sku2662469&V=G&ec=frgl_583931&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=sku2662469

[Chisox08]

47. Just because there picture is on a piece of cardboard

that is sold in store doesn't mean they are models. The only people that they should be role models to is their own children.

[hfojvt]

97. I can remember some of the football players from childhood

I used to pretend I was Bob Griese when I played in the back yard because he had glasses and so did I. But I cannot believe I ever modelled my life after them. I still don't know anything about their life stories. I remember reading a kid's biography about OJ Simpson but it was probably half myth and half box scores (except of football games). He ran for this many yards at this game and the score was this, and so on. My brother was a big Kareem Abdul Jabbar fan. When he wrote a paper in the 10th grade on his hero, he wrote it about KAJ, but did he model his life after KAJ? I don't think so? Then again, he did have gambling issues. Was that because of Pete Rose? I don't think so. My brother did his betting from 1983-86 and Rose's story did not come out until 1989. We simply followed these people more on the field than we did off.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. And you put the finger on what is wrong with our society

there is more to life than pure fame and fortune.

[Raineyb]

123. Thank you.

It's almost as if people care more about animals than humans and I find their priorities troubling to say the very least.

[Thothmes]

41. He belonged in the NFL because he could play his

position very well. That is why they paid him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. And I will make the same point some others may do

he paid his price to society, he did his time in prison.

This is the same logic used with other felons. Guess what? Most of them have no fame, and no name. Why do you think they go back to crime?

Connect a few dots.

Now it is up to the NFL to decide whether to hire or not... but as far as I am concerned, for this offense, he's paid his debt to society... and like the thousands of convicts who are released every year, he deserves a chance to MAKE A LEGAL LIVING.

Feel free not to watch if he gets hired...

[hughee99]

11. CEO's convicted of a felony can't be CEO's again,

In fact, there are a number of jobs that convicted felons can't get. Hell, Martha Stewart can't even be CEO of her own company. I'm not saying Vick should or shouldn't be reinstated, but NFL players represent the league, and the league does (and should) have a right to exclude him if they wish. Vick has the right to make a legal living, but just because he's not in the NFL doesn't mean he can't make a legal living.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. That is a very special type of crime, but she can HOLD A JOB

correct?

THAT IS THE POINT.

Until we make a FEDERAL or STATE law, which is where the CEO not being able to hold a JOB for WHITE COLLAR CRIMES, then we cannot apply it. That is the point

Point to me the law where a former NFL player, or any other league, cannot legally go back to the league. Thank you.

As I said, the NFL has reinstated him, now it is up to the TEAMS to hire him or not.

[hughee99]

The NFL has the right to suspend or ban players for certain behavior

and as far as I know, they have the legal right to do this. Vick isn't legally banned from the NFL, he never was. Hell, were it not for league rules he could have been under contract while in jail. But it's up to the league to let him back in as a player. They're not obligated to let him play just because he's served his sentence. Vick can hold A JOB as well, just not the one he used to have without league permission.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. And the league has lifted the suspension

thank you.

So as a fan, if a team hires him, you have choices, including not watching. But the league has let him in, thank you.

[hughee99]

32. And they're welcome to hire him...

It sounded to me like the original post I was replying to was suggesting that once he's done his time, the NFL shouldn't be able to further punish him by keeping him out. Maybe I was misreading it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. The whole outrage is coming from how come this sleezeball

has been allowed back into the league? To me, they are the door keepers, it is their league... (and as a convict he has a right to try to get a job)

Now realistically, I don't expect him to last long in the league for PR reasons. And even if he is a good coach, we don't know, the chances of him getting a job as a coach somewhere are anywhere from low to none as well. That is the reality of our society.

And in general it points to the same kind of problem most Cons face... getting a job after they get out of jail.

So I do hope he knows what to do with the small fortune he's amassed... Though he MIGHT, ironically, be able to get a job with an animal rights organization, trying to push for animal rights...

The reformed one.

But insofar as the NFL is concerned, to a point I am glad they did this... no, not because this is Michael Vick, it might make OTHER employers around the country give a chance to recently freed convicts.

[Chisox08]

42. The NFL does have the right to exclude anyone from playing if they wish

Here's the kicker they don't wish to exclude Vick from playing in the NFL. The NFL is giving him a chance to turn his life around and play again. If we were to go by the standards set up the SEC for CEOs then most of the players wouldn't be in the NFL and no player from the University of Miami would play either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. There you go, and not just Miami, by the way

Half of the rookies would not be able to even apply to the league.

[Chisox08]

51. I was just using Miami as an example.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. I know, I used to be a TA for one college team

and part of the problem is the coaching staff. The war stories

After that I concluded... the NCAA is just as corrupt, probably a little less, than the NFL...

And the kids, 99% will not make it to the NFL, are real victims of a system that has promised them much, but hardly delivers.

Why I expanded it to the rest of the league.

:-)

[hughee99]

52. As I said, the choice was up to the NFL...

i was replying to a post that I mistakenly thought was suggesting that once he's done his time the NFL shouldn't be able to keep him out. I was trying to make the point that not only can felons be punished after their time is served, the government does this, and there's no place one could go to make their case.

[whathehell]

12. Yes, and feel free to watch if he does NOT get hired.

He deserves a chance to earn a legal living, but that doesn't mean he deserves a chance to rejoin the NFL....Somehow, I don't think he'll starve.:eyes:

He's a sadistic scumbag.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. I don't watch sports, but until we have it IN THE BOOKS

that you cannot go back to your previous employment in sports after serving time... sorry... it is up to the league.

And if any team hires, it is up to you to watch, or not, boo or not... you still have that right.

But last time I checked he's done the time... and like ANY other convict, he has a right to try to find a job he's qualified for. If you got an issue with him, you got an issue with any other convict.

And trust me, as horrible as his crimes were... there are crimes that are ten times as bad.

[Shagbark Hickory]

23. You didn't read my post either.

He may have paid ghis debt to society but he never belonged in the NFL because he's a bad role model.

[Rebubula]

118. Again...

...they are NOT Role Models.

Most of them are simply overpaid Frat boys.

And...I read your post. However, unless there is a clause that prohibits assholes in the league, as long as he can play the position of QB effectively he should be allowed to play.

[arcadian]

60. Wrong. He paid his debt to the state.

It appears society still wishes to judge him and rightfully so in my opinion.

[Flaneur]

143. It appears a handful of anonymous internet posters are bent out of shape.

I tend to devalue the comments of people whose arguments are no more than:

1. He's an evil POS.
2. He's a scumbag.

He HAS paid his debt to society, which is the common phrase for someone who has served his sentence.

If you're pissed off at him still, don' watch him play football.

[arcadian]

146. How many is a handful when you are talking about global telecommunications?

20 million? 100 million? You just lost that argument.

[Wickerman]

3. So, you'd barr a man who has legally paid his debt because he is a "scumbag"

but let the plethora of other scumbags in pro sports continue? wtf, why pick on Vick; because he is high profile?

If in 2009 you still look to pro sports for your role models you are living way, way in the past.

[BlooInBloo]

9. Yes, that's what DUers believe.

[Wickerman]

13. lol

guess I will remain an "original thinker."

[whathehell]

36. It depends on your definition of "scumbag"..A man who tortures dogs for "fun"

is not your everyday "scumbag" -- He's a sick, evil sadist, and the size of his "profile" is irrelevant.

[Wickerman]

44. I am as repulsed by Vicks actions as the next guy

I have rescue animals that we gave homes to simply because they were mistreated and we wanted them to have quality lives. That said, Vick has paid his debt to society based on legal requirement and though I personally give a crap about him as an individual, believe that once a person has paid such debt its societies obligation to allow him or her to return to their choice of employment as the market and law allows. There is no law that prohibits him from returning and the market place will determine if he is viable.

There are plenty of equally heinous criminals who serve in the NFL and other pro sports. Vick simply is the target du jour.

[Orsino]

134. Then let's set aside the payment of his arbitrary debt...

...and ask what he has since done to atone, or even to show remorse?

Is he still the person who wanted to profit from torture? If so, is that sickness something that ought to be enabled with a multimillion-dollar salary?

[Missy Vixen]

77. Pooor, pooor Michael Vick

So victimized. He only tortured multiple animals to death. He put household pets in the dogfighting ring to watch them die a bloody, horrific death, too. When he wasn't doing that, he ran a dogfighting ring. It's against federal law.

While your heart is bleeding over the injustice done to Vick, I've asked this question in multiple pro-Vick threads now: Would you let him dog sit at your house? For how long? Would you let him babysit your kids? I can't seem to get an answer. I wonder why.

There's a demonstrated link between animal abuse and human abuse, based on multiple studies. Would you be willing to take that chance?

[Wickerman]

86. oh for fucksakes, the discussion is can the man play football or not

If you'd bother to read a fucking thing I said, which obviously you didn't as you are on a stated agenda to educate anyone who posts contrary to what you believe, you'd know I don't give a damn about Vick nor his livelihood. I do, however, have a firm belief that when you finish your state or federal sentence you should enjoy the rights entitled to you. To deny Vick or anyone else his stated rights is unjust.

The question isn't if I would let him sit my kid or play with dog; its whether he can play football. Perhaps that's why no one has bothered to respond to you; you can't stay on fucking topic. For no reason other than to satisfy your curiosity, no, Vick would not sit my dog nor my child. Neither would you. I don't know Vick, I don't know you. Simple equation.

[WillieW]

88. He can make a living - cleaning out dog kennels.

[Wickerman]

90. thanks, that was valuable

and original.

[Missy Vixen]

106. He's been sitting for three years

He most likely can't play at a professional level for several months at the least. He lied to the owner of the Falcons re: playing in the "prison league", too. That's okay. He can still play football!

Let's put it this way: Whether you like it or not, pro athletes are still considered "role models". He will have contact with children in this role; the NFL just loves to trot out other people's kids for their photo ops. If you don't think it's a valid question that Vick may batter people as well as the dogs he murdered, you're so blinded by your "win at all cost" that you don't think.

My opinion's just as important as yours.

BTW, I wouldn't be interested in sitting your dog or your child. I prefer to spend my time with people who can actually look at another point of view.

[Wickerman]

111. Its been a real pleasure talking with you

Not. You've clearly read nothing I wrote and then complain that I don't listen to other views. :eyes:

I don't care about the sport of pro football. You have a football avatar.

Don't worry, I won't be inviting you over for the big game on Sunday.

[Missy Vixen]

121. So, you don't care about the sport of pro football

but you're posting in a thread about pro football. You then chide me for being "off topic" when I mention the fact that Vick is not ready to play in an NFL game right now by any stretch of the imagination, therefore, he is of no value to any team in the NFL even without the baggage he brings.

Why are YOU here?

>Don't worry, I won't be inviting you over for the big game on Sunday.<

I wish I could say I was sorry to read that, but I'm not.

Get over yourself.

[Wickerman]

122. I mistook this for a thread where people would talk about the merits

of whether a man, once his debt to society had been paid, as identified by law, could be returned to his former life, market forces considered. That it is on the topic of football is incidental to me, but I see it isn't to others. I'll leave you and yours to discuss the merits of whether Vick is civilized enough to play a brutal game.

[Hugabear]

108. So playing in the NFL is a "right"?

Nobody's saying he can't play football. Hell, the newly formed United Football League wants Michael Vick to play for them. But I suppose that isn't good enough, not enough money, and Vick has some "right" to play in the NFL again?

[Wickerman]

113. Where the fuck did I say he has a right to play in the NFL?

I said "Vick has paid his debt to society based on legal requirement and though I personally give a crap about him as an individual, believe that once a person has paid such debt its societies obligation to allow him or her to return to their choice of employment as the market and law allows. There is no law that prohibits him from returning and the market place will determine if he is viable."

[Hugabear]

120. You also said this

"oh for fucksakes, the discussion is can the man play football or not"

and this

"To deny Vick or anyone else his stated rights is unjust."


And isn't this what this whole subject is about? That somehow, Vick has a right to return to his profession, which happens to be professional football and the NFL?

[Wickerman]

125. Yes, I said that, but in context

The context being that if market forces allow, he has paid his debt as identified in his sentence and should be allowed to play. For the NFL to deny him the right to play IF his skills and marketability are able would be unfair.

I realize that it may be unpopular to say he has a right to pursue his profession. I also personally believe that Vick is a reprehensible creature but I do feel that we protect the thugs as well as the more likable so that all are not discriminated against. It's kind of social justice 101.

If I were ever to find myself in a stadium where Vick were playing I have no doubt I would boo him. I believe if he gets back in the game he'll get a lot of that. IF he can make a team he gets to own those boos. Perhaps it will make him a better person. Doubtful, but my idea of progressiveness is to allow a second chance. YMMV.

[Hugabear]

135. I will agree with you there

As long as the NFL continues to harbor those who commit physical violence against other humans (ie domestic abuse, physical assault, manslaughter), then the NFL has no business banning someone for animal abuse. It should be up to each individual team to decide whom they want to have represent their team.

[SammyWinstonJack]

116. Isn't it a fact that serial killers often start out abusing/torturing animals?

I wouldn't let that sadistic monster anywhere near my dogs.

[Raineyb]

124. There are lots of scumbags who happen not to have police records

Is the OP suggesting that we somehow develop a scumbag detector and keep people out of the NFL because it's so -what exactly?

You make a lot of sense Wickerman, but I don't think your opinion will be popular around here.

[Wickerman]

133. lol, that seems to be the case

Thanks. Social justice is for the undesirable as well as those whose actions are more palatable. Hard to accept, I suppose.

I like your idea of a scumbag detector.I see some problems with the settings, though. Should we set it to eliminate the adulterers? Those who beat their spouses but are never convicted? Kinda deplete the NFL, sadly.

[spanone]

4. scum bucket would eliminate most ceo's and politicians

[Shagbark Hickory]

24. But they are not role models / celebrity sports entertainers.

[Solomon]

35. Not role models? What the fuck! Are you kidding?

Check yourself. Maybe CEO isn't something you aspire to, but tons of people do. You just don't know what you're talking about.

[hatredisnotavalue]

5. I am really torn on this

I believe he should be given a chance at redemption and should play and bring the PETA arguments to the forefront of our national dialog. But he shouldn't be able to profit from his play. Maybe a good role model is admitting a mistake and trying to remedy that mistake?

[Shagbark Hickory]

26. Yes except this dog fighting bit is just the tip of the iceberg

Perhaps sleaze bucket was ineffective. Vick is a worthless, sorry excuse for a human.

[asdjrocky]

6. Oh for crying out loud.

And every jock you met in high school was a great guy and all the players in the NFL are saints. Oh, and what drugs? Was it pot? Because gawd knows pot leads to, er, well, more pot and twinkies.

[Shagbark Hickory]

28. Don't have to be a saint. Just have to stay out of trouble.

[armyowalgreens]

57. No, you expect him to be a saint.

He got caught with pot. I am sitting 5 feet from a medicine bottle full of the stuff. That does not qualify someone as a drug smuggler in the ethical sense.

[asdjrocky]

89. Bullshit.

I don't have to stay out of trouble to do my job, and unless you're a cop or a judge you don't either.

[Critters2]

101. You'd get to keep your job after 2 years in prison for dogfighting?

Where do you work...a dogfighting ring?

[KamaAina]

7. But, but, but Tony Dungy says he's found Jebus!

:sarcasm:

[BlooInBloo]

8. hahahaha @ PETA fool: Saying Vick should have to have a brain scan!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I love the Puritans Only In The NFL crowd.

Curious: what other jobs should he be banned from?

You guys slay me.

[whathehell]

17. Oh..I get it...Only "puritans" are put off by the idea of torturing dogs..

Sure..I guess I'm a puritan:crazy:

[Critters2]

46. Me, too. I'm strangely uncomfortable with the idea of torturing animals.

Call me intolerant, but it is what it is.

[msanthrope]

21. Dogcatcher, obviously.

Seriously, my objections to Vick playing again are based not on the animal cruelty issues, but on the illegal gambling and enterprise charges.

I don't think it's a good idea to have an admitted illegal gambler in a professional league. But the NFL gets to make their own rules.

Personally, I think Vick is benefitting fromt he fact that Dante Stallworth is WANTED back......no way to let Dante back in, but not Vick. So I think the NFL commissioner is giving Vick enough rope, and hoping he screws up, all on his own.

Whoever hires Vivk better understand that here in Philly, Mr. Vick wil be greeted by a barrage of milkbones.....

[griloco]

10. he shouldn't play in the nfl because

i never want to see him beat my packers
on the frozen tundra ever again.
now, if goodell had made this a condition
of his return--fake an injury before packer games--
i'd be all for his return.

after all, i like football and great plays

[marmar]

14. If you opened up the skeleton closets of the people in the Baseball Hall of Fame....

or the Football Hall of Fame etc etc.....you would find racists, anti-Semites, extreme homophobes, wife beaters, tax evaders, perhaps murderers and yes, even animal abusers. The anti-Michael Vick sentiment is a wee bit sanctimonious.

[provis99]

15. who told you NFL players are "role models"?

they are there because they are good at the sport of football, not because they give money to charity and volunteer at food banks. I could care less if the NFL was dominated by career criminals, because I'm only watching them for their athletic performance, not their good deeds. Whoever came up with the idea that sports atheletes are "role models" was a complete idiot.

[Shagbark Hickory]

40. I guess I feel that way because of what I found at Walgreens

http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?id=prod2663032&CATID=304109&skuid=sku2662469&V=G&ec=frgl_583931&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=sku2662469

[Bill McBlueState]

128. well, there's the kicker

Shaping your opinions around the things you find at Walgreens may lead to trouble.

[Fire1]

18. So b/c his character was previously questionable, whether or

not he has changed is irrelevant. As far as you are concerned, he's still not a good role model. Sounds personal, to me. You think every athlete in pro sports is a 'good role model?' Think again.

[Critters2]

27. What makes him a good role model, in your opinion? nt

[Fire1]

45. Did I SAY he was a 'good' role model? That's hardly the

point here.

[Critters2]

49. I'll bite....what is the point? nt

[Fire1]

58. The op sounds unjustly bias, in that, whether he IS rehabilitated

or NOT, it's irrelevant. Essentially, paying one's debt to society is irrelevant. One should never expect to be forgiven or allowed to start anew (although many don't have any means of starting anew).

[Critters2]

59. Vick doesn't have some magic right to live as if none of this happened.

Most felons have restrictions in their lives, including not being able to get their old jobs back. No reason Vick shouldn't live like all of his compadres in prison, who will have to prove their rehabilitation to employers.

Torture animals, take the consequences. I have no problem with that.

[Fire1]

66. Like other ex-cons he is on probation. I have a problem with

the entire system. Not just Vick. His other compadres will likely end up back in prison b/c they don't even get a chance to prove their rehabilitation, if there IS such an animal, b/c noone will hire them. Fortunately, he will be given a chance to prove his 'rehabilitation.'

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. He was released from Federal Custody, he is no longer even on probation

just an FYI, but you are very correct. He will have a chance to avoid going back to the big house, unlike many other cons who never will be able to do that since nobody will hire them.

[Fire1]

82. Put my response to your post in the wrong spot, below. Sorry.

[Fire1]

81. Thanks for that info. So much happening, lately it's a challenge

to keep up. Thanks again.:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. You welcome, one of those that I went, they did? WOW TIME FLIES

:-)

[Shagbark Hickory]

33. They just have to stay out of trouble. That's it. Get get paid 10's of millions of $. Should have

some self control.

[Critters2]

94. Should have had self-control to begin with. He didn't. No reason to think he'll

be any different now.

[global1]

20. But ...But ....He Lost Over $100 Million Dollars......nt

[Shagbark Hickory]

34. He should be allowed to try to earn it back but just not in the NFL. nt

[Critters2]

25. One a person's judgement and character is demonstrated to be less

than, well, good, employers have a right to choose to hire them. No one has a right to any job they want, if the employer has concerns about their behavior. Any employer has good reason to not want Vick on a pay roll, even after he's done his time. Torturing animals has consequences. Life sucks that way, but he should have thought about that before he decided to torture animals.

[LanternWaste]

43. His readmission to the NFL...

His readmission to the NFL will have the effect of my own personal boycott against every and all NFL game until he's no longer in the league.

Might never have to happen, but knowing that the NFL's bottom line is cash, I'm preparing to sit out at least this season... :eyes:

Every NFL player is a de-facto community leader, it's part of the job package these days-- like it or not, recognize it or not. I do not want to see an individual who consciously and willfully tortured to be in that role.

My denial of all things NFL will not have an effect on anyone but me as a statement of belief... a declaration of intent. A small sacrifice of mine to better keep on the path I've chosen which is in this case, quite at odds with the market forces and my fellow NFL fans.



That said, the guy's a real scrote, and I'm having a difficult time realizing that his actions have been, are, and will indeed be justified by a large cross-section of America...

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. And that is exactly what you should do

if that is the way you feel.

My problem with this is not Vic, or the NFL for that matter, is that this is a widespread attitude versus all convicts, regardless of profession or job performance.

Now the NFL will probably act if enough people boycott the game. Me, don't watch sports, could not care less who plays what... and the professional leagues are rackets all on their own

As to the community leaders crap from sports. Fame and fortune and the pursuit of it, is partly what is wrong with our society. Why not push the great scientist as a role model instead of the insert sports figure or starlet here?

That is a whole different discussion though.

[LanternWaste]

64. leaving prison is not the end of a man's sentence...

"That is a whole different discussion though..."

It is a whole other discussion, or course-- and one I imagine we would be in total agreement with. But as things are as they are in the here and now, many of my own choices and decisions re: culture and mores will be necessarily based on that rather than a hypothesized alternative.

My father was an ex-con. Did five in state (Huntsville) and three in fed (FCI FW). I have a bias which is difficult to suppress, and don't struggle enough to do so.

But leaving prison is not the end of a man's sentence, it is the first step on a much longer recovery towards freedom as we know it. Like it or not, accept it or not, recognize it or not-- it is indeed part and parcel of our social more.

Ed: added your quote, otherwise my post makes no sense.... :P

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Then you should know better,

your dad, as far as I am concerned, paid his debt the day he was finally released from custody at the end of parole.. if he got that.

:-)

But in our society he was never able to get over it, I know.

[emilyg]

70. Hear. Hear!

[eqfan592]

78. Well, enjoy not watching football if he does come back.

I, personally, do feel he's done his time. Maybe not as much as some thinks he deserves, but he did pay the price laid out by society. I am all for giving people a full, 2nd chance. But that's just my humble opinion. And I don't believe that saying this in any way justifies his actions.

[dorkulon]

54. "There's more to being a football player than just playing the game" -- bullshit.

It's a game--a violent game,BTW. If your kids look to pro athletes for moral instruction, that's their problem. Vick is definitely a scumbag--one who's done his time, and can play football well enough to be a pro. I think his sentence was not enough either, but that's the way it works and it's frankly unconstitutional to continue punishing him.

Kids look up to all kinds of people--rock stars, pro wrestlers, even their parents. That's really the lamest reason you could give,"think of the children." It can be used for anything.

[Critters2]

62. It's unconstitutional for the government to continue punishing him.

The rest of society is free to react toward him in any way we wish, within legal bounds. He has no God-given right to play football.

[armyowalgreens]

67. You need a reality check...

The reason why we have a justice system is to seek justice. If you don't think the punishment was enough, TO FUCKING BAD. Go lobby for tougher sentences.

But don't waste our time with that "court of public opinion" bullshit. It's complete nonsense.


You are right, Michael Vick has no God-given right to play in the NFL. But you have no god-given right to stop him from playing.

[Critters2]

91. There's nothing "bullshit" about the court of public opinion.

Healthy, sane people are disgusted with those who torture animals. You, obviously, are not.

[armyowalgreens]

93. hahahahaha. You are so sad.

I'm disgusted by the act of torturing an animal. I am disgusted by someone who someone who condones such a thing.

Michael Vick is no longer torturing or condoning. Therefore, I am no longer disgusted with him.

The court of public opinion is nothing more then an excuse to make up facts and vent your emotions. Are they vented yet? Because logical people would like to move on with their lives.

[Critters2]

95. No need to make up facts. The facts were presented in court.

This is a man who enjoys, and profitted from, the torture of animals. Again, there's no reason to think his proclivities have changed. He hasn't done it recently, but then, laws are more strictly enforced in prison.

[armyowalgreens]

99. There is no reason????

He made a public statement apologizing for his actions. He spent time in prison. You don't think that changes a person? Get a fucking clue.

[Critters2]

100. I've worked in criminal justice. Trust me, prison doesn't make a person better.

Particularly a person with a violent personality to begin with. Oh, and apologizing so you can have your many-million-dollar-a-year job back doesn't really count.

[armyowalgreens]

103. So what would be enough for you?

What would it take for you to think he has changed his ways?

[Critters2]

105. Several years with no criminal convictions.

That'll take several years to accomplish.

[whathehell]

136. "Logic" has nothing to do with the torturing of animals either...

Neither, I suspect, do disgust and moral revulsion at the thought of such a thing.

They are, however, indicative of empathy, kindness and a value system which condemns subjecting fellow creatures to suffer for the sake of another's "fun".

If you think we can do without those values, I suggest you join the Vicks of the world.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Critters2]

61. In what way has he been rehabilitated? What proof is there

that he's changed in any way?

[xultar]

63. Who are you to say he hasn't. Sounds like the Peta guy wanting brain scans.

[BlooInBloo]

74. Actually, I think that *IS* the PETAbrainscan guy!

:rofl:

[xultar]

115. Thta shit was incredible. He made PETA look like whackos.

[Critters2]

96. So, what you're saying is that there is no evidence he's been rehabilitated.

That's what I thought.

[xultar]

114. Personally I think he has. He's nevah going to make that mistake again.

Call it what you want. I think he's done with animal fighting. I don't even think he'll ever have a pet of any kind fish, bird, rock...just to make sure he can never be associated with animals.

[SammyWinstonJack]

119. Mistake?

:wow: Is he done with animal torture too?

That was a really big 'mistake'. :eyes:

[xultar]

131. I've worked in rescues, I've seen animal abuse. Have you? Others who have done worse

are allowed back at their jobs.

If a team will hire him, he should be allowed back. If a team doesn't hire him those are the breaks.

But all this craziness on DU is bullshit because if he wasn't rich or famous no one would be saying SHIT.

[armyowalgreens]

65. What evidence do you want?

What can I provide to you that would convince you?

I never said he was rehabilitated. I claimed that we simply do not know. There's plenty of evidence of him apologizing. He went to prison and did his time.

Is that evidence of rehabilitation? I don't know and I don't really give a shit.

The point is that we simply do not know what is going on in the head of Michael Vick. Posting OPs trashing him is mindless stupidity.

[xultar]

117. [phone] A+FUCKING-MEN!

[whathehell]

141. You're failing to acknowledge obvious, gratuitous sadism is "mindless stupidity".

[eqfan592]

79. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Man, you seriously had me laughing out loud at my desk here. +1!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :toast:

[Greyhound]

69. I don't disagree, but if we are to enforce this feeling, half of the NBA

should be banned from the sport forever. The NFL and the NBA both get much of their talent from environments that breed anti-social behavior through economic necessity.

This is the great dilemma, we tolerate abject poverty and a rampant criminality in large areas throughout our cities. The fact that these victims of injustice have only the slim odds of making it in athletics or entertainment as an escape from the crushing poverty and neglect is the problem. We create thugs through this negligence and then bemoan the fact that they are thugs, expecting them to suddenly transform into "role models".

Are we prepared to exclude talented players that grow from terrible environments because they have literally never known anything else, because they have never been taught how to conduct themselves in society?

[Goblinmonger]

71. Smuggle drugs?

You can't be serious about that being a reason to kick him out. He tried to bring a very small amount of pot on a plane in a water bottle. Clearly it shows he is no genius, but "scumbag"? Really? How many scumbags are there on DU, then? Please, get over yourself. Drug smuggler. Indeed.

[BlooInBloo]

73. Aw fuck - you totally blew my Miami Vice imagery!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Pool Hall Ace]

72. There is no shortage of poor role models on planet earth

but they are allowed to go earn a living.

For instance, I don't feel that realty stars are good role models. I'm not a mom, but if I were, I would explain to the kiddos why Paris Hilton, Kate Gosselin, Tonya Harding, or whoever ad infinitum is a poor role model. Same thing with athletes, including Michael Vick.

I don't have access to football tickets, but I will be sure to cheer for whatever team is playing against Vick's team. I also refuse to purchase any products that Vick will endorse, and I will let those advertisers know exactly why.

I think that's about all we can do. We can't ban poor role models from working.

[NeedleCast]

75. Who is the Arbiter of what jobs make a person a role model?

[donheld]

80. If there were no scum buckets in the NFL there would be no NFL

[flvegan]

84. He's never shown any actual remorse for what he did.

Yeah, he apologized to his fans and family and bullshit. Only remorse is that he got caught and lost a fortune.

[rustydog]

85. Didn't he serve his sentence term? His punishment is now over

let football fans decide if they want to watch him play any more.

Wow, you never heard the teachings of Jesus or if you did, you certainly turned a deaf ear!

[BlooInBloo]

92. hahahaah! Nobody actually BELIEVES that stuff. Get with the program.

[WillieW]

87. M. Vick deserves to clean out dog kennels for the rest of his life. Hey- it's a living

No self-respecting team should pick him up. The Washington Redskins don't want him. He should not be able to pick up where he left off making millions.

[Maru Kitteh]

104. +1

[Bill McBlueState]

129. "No self-respecting team should pick him up."

What about the other 20 teams?

[Toasterlad]

98. If You Threw Out People For Being Scumbuckets, There'd Be 16 Professional Athletes Left In The US

The people that play professional sports are the cream of the crop. The MOST talented athletes in the country. Which usually means that most everyone around them has been kissing their asses for most of their lives. It takes a very strong character to endure that and not become a total prick.

[Missy Vixen]

107. Actually, there's most of a teamful in Seattle

We tend to trade or cut those who can't seem to stay out of trouble...

[taught_me_patience]

102. He's done his time and should be able to make a living n/t.

[ColbertWatcher]

109. If being a scum bucket it a good enough reason to prevent someone from playing ...

... what will it take to prevent someone from "owning" a team?

Saudi Prince Bandar cavorts with Dallas Cowboy's "owner" Jerry Jones on the sidelines during games

[JonLP24]

110. I think you have your facts wrong

Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick won't face criminal charges over a suspicious bottle he tried to bring through security at Miami International Airport.

Lab tests on the bottle, which contained a hidden compartment that police suspected may have contained marijuana, found no evidence of drugs, according to a memo Monday by Deisy Rodriguez, an assistant state attorney.

"Based on the lab's findings, the Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office is not filing criminal charges," Rodriguez said in the memo, adding the bottle is no longer considered evidence in an investigation.

Over the weekend, league sources told ESPN's Chris Mortensen that Vick would be cleared.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2738494

[Shagbark Hickory]

112. that was after the bottle 'went missing'. Keep googling.

[kentuck]

126. another viewpoint.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/opinions/anntelnaes/

[Johonny]

127. lol, you must not watch the NFL

because the league has/had people in it that: killed people, involved in murders, involve in domestic violence, involved in battery, smuggled drugs, sold drugs, used illegal drugs... if you think people watch NFL because they care about them as role models, you're thinking of that other Sunday programming.

[lies and propaganda]

130. um, logic fail

no cause he killed dogs.. because he was s scumbag before even that... HE SMOKED POT! and tried to bring it on a plane, OH NOEZ!

Im not even mad about the dog thing anymore now that I know hes a pot smoker!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. He shouldn't play in the NFL because some people are jealous.

Some people get jealous that other people make more money than them.

Particularly athletes.

Particularly black athletes.

[whathehell]

137. How Lame...I'm absolutely sure that

if he were a rich white athlete who tortured dogs, no one would think a thing of it.:sarcasm:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

138. Lots and lots of people run dog fights.

Only reason people are upset over Michael Vick is because it's Michael Vick.

[whathehell]

139. You're wrong there...Dog fighting is ILLEGAL in every state I know of and besides

I think what most were disgusted at was the way he personally "executed" the "losing" dogs in hideous ways.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

144. You already admitted it was because he was a rich athlete.

Race notwithstanding.

:shrug:

[whathehell]

145. I didn't "admit" anything...The fact that he is a "rich athlete" means nothing except that the case

got the kind of publicity (not necessarily punishment) that non-famous people don't get...
The fact is, his riches and fame may have bought him his reduced sentence...I don't know...I DO know that two older teenagers in California who tortured a dog to death got a LOT longer sentence (like 17years)than Vick.

The issue here isn't color, wealth, or fame..It's the disgusting torture and abuse of helpless creatures...Anyone who does this is, IMO, evil, sick or both..In any case they make me:puke:

[MadBadger]

140. Quit making sports about role models.

We watch sports not to look up to somebody, but because its fun and interesting to us.

Their athletes, not fucking heroes.

[dugaresa]

142. who made sports people role models? they aren't mine

personally there are loads of scum buckets in the world and they have a right to make an income so long as their scum bucketry doesn't foul that up.

What Vick did was horrible and he paid his time. But it seems that he like all other felons who are released are never allowed to actually join society and be forgiven because society just can't forgive people for their crimes.

So the guy who gets out of prison for manslaughter and who tries to rejoin society will find himself outside of society with few options. He will be relegated to the lowest paying jobs, if he can get one. He will find himself always having to bring up his past and never be allowed to put it behind him to become the better person. Then we wonder then why these folks end up committing more crimes?

Unless we want to imprison people for life for every crime, we have to learn to forgive and move on. If Vick follows the right path then perhaps he will be a role model, if he sinks low again well there will be a cell waiting for him. Let's hope he can be the former.