Letter to an Irish newspaper.

[Jackeens]

Madam, – I have been in a committed relationship for 17 years. Because the person I fell in love with and have chosen to share my life with is a woman, the civil right of marriage – open in principle to all heterosexual Irish people – has never been available to me as a citizen of this State.

A lot of our married friends have asked us when we’re going to get married too – as if maybe we’re just being a bit slow off the mark or need a bit of encouragement – and we have to remind them that we can’t. They simply assume the right on our behalf because it seems so natural to them and they forget that we don’t have it. But then they have known us for a very long time, and so they see two human beings who – like them – have been faithfully together through every experience that 17 years of life can bring to a couple.

To have the relationship of my life characterised as “a lifestyle arrangement” by Tim Jackson (July 3rd) is deeply painful, but then mr jackson does not know me, so he is speaking not about me but about some abstract entity that he calls “the gay lobby”.

Well, the lobby is full of people like me, the lobby exists because of people like me, and amid the great joy of celebrating the marriages of our straight friends and our siblings there is always for those of us in the lobby the increasing heartbreak of knowing that because of our sexual orientation – and that alone – the State does not permit us equal recognition and status for our own relationships. – Yours, etc,

MARGARET LONERGAN,

Stoneybatter,

Dublin 7.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2009/0710/1224250386496.html

[Cerridwen]

1. K & R

Fear; if only it had a monetary value we could eradicate poverty the world over.

[vadawg]

2. nice letter, but cant see it making much difference in eire,

most of the counties are still very catholic in both culture and outlook..

[Jackeens]

3. Not true vadawg, the Catholic church is crumbling in Ireland

For lots of reasons, this is the latest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Child_Abuse

The churches are half empty every Sunday, and they're now having to bring in 'foreign' priests because there are so few joining the priesthood here. The Catholic church - praise the Lord! - is very nearly a spent force in Ireland. Hallelujah.

[vadawg]

4. mayby so but if you notice what i wrote they are catholic in culture and outlook

the pews may not be full but they are still very conservative when it comes to social issues, especially when you get outside of dublin and they are in a voting booth.

[Jackeens]

8. Conservative in rural areas, no doubt....

....but I think that's generally the way in most countries? Even the U.S.?

It's not so long ago that the Vatican saw Ireland and Malta as the last European bastions of Catholic fruit-cake-ness...but then the Irish voted for divorce in a referendum, which was a delicious two fingers to the Pope and his pals.

This IS NOT ENOUGH, but in a country tortured - literally - by the Catholic church for centuries it's a tiny step in the right direction:

June 2009: Ireland has passed a civil partnership bill, granting same-sex couples many of the rights of civil marriage. "This bill provides legal protection for cohabiting couples and is an important step, particularly for same-sex couples, whose relationships have not previously been given legal recognition by the state," Justice Minister Dermot Ahern said in a statement.

http://gaylife.about.com/b/2009/06/26/irelandgaycivilpartnerships.htm

I have six Irish nieces and nephews, ranging in age from six to 23 - not one of them, either by themselves or with their parents - attends Mass on a Sunday.

A terrible beauty is born!

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. I don't think it's been passed yet, only introduced into the legislative process

For instance:

Civil Partnership Bill published
...
Fine Gael also welcomed the bill which it said, reflected its own long-standing social justice agenda. However, the party’s justice spokesman, Charlie Flanagan, said it was disappointing that Minister Ahern has waited until the dying days of the Dáil session to publish a Bill which required careful analysis.

The Green Party said the Bill would be of practical benefit to same-sex couples in Ireland and marked a significant step forward. “Once the Bill goes through the Oireachtas and becomes law, many people in loving relationships will have the option to have their commitment recognised by the State. It represents real and substantial progress,” said the party’s justice spokesman Ciarán Cuffe.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0626/breaking34.htm

(My emphasis)

'Published', in bills in the UK, normally means it's written out in full and people can start looking at what's proposed, and I expect the same meaning is used in Irish legislation too (and when something is still under debate, it's a 'bill'; when it's been passed, it's an 'act'). And the government site seems to shows it hasn't yet had a formal debate in the parliament:

Civil Partnership Bill 2009

An Bille um Páirtnéireacht Shibhialta 2009
Bill Number 44 of 2009
Sponsored by Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform
Source: Government
Method: Presented
Status: New Bill

Bill entitled an Act to provide for the registration of civil partners and for the consequences of that registration, to provide for the rights and obligations of cohabitants and to provide for connected matters

Bille dá ngairtear Acht do dhéanamh socrú maidir le clárú páirtnéirí sibhialta agus maidir le hiarmhairtí an chláraithe sin, do dhéanamh socrú maidir le cearta agus oibleagáidí comhchónaitheoirí agus do dhéanamh socrú i dtaobh nithe comhghaolmhara

Dáil Éireann

First Stage
Presented 24/06/2009
Order for Second Stage DDMMYY
Civil Partnership Bill 2009 as initiated and Explanatory Memorandum Civil Partnership Bill 2009 as initiated (in PDF format)
Civil Partnership Bill 2009 Explanatory Memorandum Civil Partnership Bill 2009 Explanatory Memorandum

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=12249

[mopinko]

5. hallelujah indeed.

that is some great news.

[vadawg]

6. yeah because we dont want the irish catholic culture to survive, sarcasm

it never fails to amaze me how people will actively cheer for any culture that they deem not good enough to fail, but lambast others who may not think that another culture is worthy. I think it would be a shame to see the irish catholic culture die out in eire, who knows what the culture that replaces it would look like.

[Jackeens]

9. Please vadawg, before you say it would be a shame to see the Irish catholic culture die out.....

...read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Child_Abuse

I want these people to burn in hell, literally.

[Jackeens]

10. And PLEASE PLEASE watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBi4sYK5rjI

[vadawg]

13. you take any ethnic, cultural, religious, social group and theres things to hate

im sorry if you disagree but a big part of the irish identity is the religious element, you take that away and you never know what might replace it, and it might be a lot nastier than the culture as it is at the moment which is changing especially as said in the urban areas.

[Jackeens]

16. You are so wrong.

"im sorry if you disagree but a big part of the irish identity is the religious element, you take that away and you never know what might replace it, and it might be a lot nastier than the culture as it is at the moment"

What could be WORSE than the systematic abuse - sexual, physical and emotional - of Ireland's children?

Have you watched this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBi4sYK5rjI

Nothing vadawg, absolutely nothing, could be worse than what the Catholic church and its representatives did to our children - and their parents - over the years. Nothing.

Read this: Concentration camps run by holy men and women - https://www.tribune.ie/article/2009/may/24/concentration-camps-run-by-holy-men-and-women/

[vadawg]

18. ok you keep saying that, and ill disagree, if you dont realise that theres worse in the world

then you need to look at history, not saying suddenly eire is going to go all balkans on us, but when societies go through upheaval the results are not always good.

[dflprincess]

27. The Catholic Church did as much or more to destroy Irish culture than England

The Chuch did all it could to help the Brits destroy the language, knowing that if you take away the language you take away the culture and the people would look for something else to cling to. I know several people from Ireland who maintain that the founding of Maynooth Seminary was the worst thing that ever happened to Ireland. Strange that Ireland now has to import priests - for years it was the source for the church in America.

At the time of the divorce vote, I'm sure I heard that the Gaeltacht areas voted for it - so the people who had stayed in touch with the language and their true culture were less apt to let the Church push them around.

[mopinko]

11. i think when religion dissolves,

we will maybe come to grips with the need to live in the here and now, and to consider each other as equals. no offense intended to anyone. but i think the catholic church has done a great deal of damage. and i think religion is a crutch that we will all be better off without.

[Jackeens]

12. I agree mopinko, absolutely. n/t

[vadawg]

14. treat each other as equals, welcome to the planet earth stranger

every person on the planet has an ego, a tribe, a family etc, no matter how hard you try there will always be strife between peoples, take a look around the world and you will see wars played out between countries, families and individuals, its human nature to take your own first and i doubt religion made any difference to the first humans.

[Jackeens]

17. But isn't that the point, the Cathoic church does NOT "treat each other as equals"

Children, gays, women, etc, etc, etc......

[vadawg]

19. hell you think the catholic church is bad, you aint seen nothing if you believe this is the worst

man as a species has a propensity to do much harm to each other and if you think taking religion out of the equation will change us then you are tipping at windmills.

[mitchtv]

20. you seem to think Catholicism is synonymous

with Irish Culture. You are so wrong It existed before St Patrick and it will survive the papists' You dread the vacuum of an expelled church. Well let me tell you. It will be a good day for independent women and Gays when that bullshite is put out to pasture

[vadawg]

21. lol okay, i see the bigotry dripping from your post about papists

or do you not realise thats a derogatory term in eire for catholics, and i think you will find that the majority of irish whether in eire, alba, nz, oz or the us would also say that they are catholics, at least by culture.

[mitchtv]

22. as am I

I am as Peter O'Toole put it a "retired Catholic" , and I know the church has always sided with the rich and powerful and consistantly betrayed the working class in Eire, and every other country where they gained a foothold; Latin America is a sad example.

[vadawg]

23. not sure what you are saying here, do you agree that a big part of your identity is as

what i would call a cultural catholic, ie you dont go to mass etc, but you follow the catholic sports teams etc... still think you need to edit out the papist thing as thats a big slur.

[mitchtv]

24. entirely intentional

I am gay, They are my mortal enemy if they had their way I would be given the same treatment as in Iran . The hierarchy is pure evil. an enemy to workers across the globe

[vadawg]

26. so iguess you also use the N word when dealing with africans

cause i dont think you realise how much of a slur papist is to the irish catholic population especially from ulster.

[mitchtv]

29. If I were an AA perhaps, I might:, but I'm not-so don't assume

having survived catholic school I feel entitled to call them anything that suits. "the opiate of the masses" the tool of the RW oligarchy. they should pay taxes.Just cause I hate the church and its apologists doesn't mean I hate minorities (which they are not, It is a lifestyle choice)

[mopinko]

25. i agree. we are warriors by nature.

hierarchal, viscous, killers. but i would rather take it raw than coated with a veneer of piety.

[Ilsa]

7. The people even voted to legalize artificial birth control! It's a big step

forward, and a big one away from the control of Rome over people's lives there.

[Wednesdays]

15. K&R

:kick: