Michael Jackson was repeatedly pre-judged because he was a fucking weirdo.

[BuyingThyme]

I'm not what you would call a Michael Jackson fan, but I am a fucking liberal.

And I defend anybody who gets pre-judged for being a fucking weirdo.

So, as a fucking liberal, I would like to suggest that the people who rush to post-judge Michael Jackson today might want to take just a moment to ask themselves why.

[taterguy]

1. Don van Vliet was a fucking weirdo

No one prejudges him

[vogonity]

12. He's fast and bulbous. n/t

[Howardx]

16. once in a lifetime opportunity to use that!

good job;)

[Forkboy]

22. I don't even know what you guys are talking about, but I use it all the time.

:shrug:

:hide:

[vogonity]

31. Captain Beefheart

A quote from his classic album "Trout Mask Replica."


"A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?"

Quite possibly the strangest album ever recorded.

[Forkboy]

34. Oh....duh.

I should know that actually. x(

[kevinbgoode]

108. I met him and his band once...many years ago...

they were touring with Frank Zappa, I think...we partied a little in a little hotel bar after a concert...

[pitchforksandtorches]

122. bulbous also tapered

[GReedDiamond]

125. Bulbous, also tapered...n/t

[badgerpup]

21. Don van Vliet...Captain Beefheart, right?

I had his Shiny Beast/Batchain Puller album.
Favorite tracks were Candle Mambo and Floppy Boot Stomp...

...according to wikipedia, he still IS a 'fucking weirdo' (as in 'not dead yet') :hi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Beefheart

[stlsaxman]

41. no no no! Don Van Vliet is God.

Period.

[LittleClarkie]

79. How's he doin'? Doesn't sound like he's in the greatest of health

I can only remember one song on one album I used to own: Magic Be.

[stlsaxman]

88. Last i heard he was still painting in the Mohave where he and his wife live...

He had a degenerative disease but can't remember what it is.... a slow working one IIRC.

I hear his music at least once a week these days if not more frequently.

oh- and if Van Vliet isn't God... his art/music speaks the Word of God.

[LittleClarkie]

91. This is the album I had

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditionally_Guaranteed

It appears he wasn't too pleased with it afterward. Oh well, I liked it.

[stlsaxman]

113. The Magic Band recorded it with him but everyone quit when he released it...

there's a reason he's holding up cash on the cover.

"100% Pure And Good!"

There were some wonderful moments on that record in spite it being his attempt to finally make some money.

If you're looking to delve further into The Captain's work... i might suggest two albums from the '70's-

"Clear Spot" and "The Spotlight Kid". They're available as a "two-fer" cd on Reprise, i believe.

[Joe Fields]

55. I judge him to be super cool...

[Dennis Donovan]

2. fucking recommended!

:thumbsup:

[glowing]

3. Who happened to have a thing for young boys. Sorry, that's beyond being just a weird-o.

[armyowalgreens]

110. It seems that MJ clearly suffered from a stunted emotional personality...

He liked kids because he was mentally stuck in the world of a child.

The accusations against him were never proven in court. So why bring it up now?

[MajorChode]

123. Because this isn't a courtroom

Just because he didn't do jailtime, doesn't mean he wasn't a pedophile. I seriously doubt if even close to a majority of pedophiles ever do jailtime and his money insured he stood even better odds of not doing so.

[Bicoastal]

4. Lewis Carroll was a PROVEN pedophile. His hobby? Naked pictures of little girls' genitalia...

...and yet I don't see anyone rushing to prevent their kids from reading Alice in Wonderland.

Judge the art, not the artist.

[MadBadger]

24. I dont think anybody is rushing to prevent kids from listening to Thriller either.

[MajorChode]

126. apples and oranges

For one thing, Lewis Carroll was never so much as accussed of being a pedophile until many years after his death. Next, it was never "PROVEN", and in fact much debate about the subject exists to this day. I seriously doubt if Lewis Carroll was a pedophile.

There are other examples. Thomas Edward Lawrence was very likely a pedophile, and at the very least a weirdo, yet he is still regarded as a great person.

However, those were different times with different values. There's lots of great people who owned slaves during their time. But if someone was found to be a slaveowner today, they would not be regarded as a great person.

[XemaSab]

5. I didn't pre-judge him for anything

I only had a negative opinion of the man after the molestation allegations, the skin lightening, and those three weird kids.

That's post-judging. :shrug:

[wuushew]

13. I thought his skin whitening was a partial result of vitiligo

If so that is nothing he should be belittled for.

[BrightKnight]

20. He had vitiligo

and I am sure that he used makeup and other things to try to even out the tone. You can't really be Michael Jackson with a face that looks like a dalmatian. That was the hand that he was dealt.

[XemaSab]

71. And the extensive plastic surgery?

He was a man who clearly hated his own appearance, vitiligo or no.

[BrightKnight]

106. I am guessing that it had something to do with being a child star.

He made the transition to adult star very well professionally but perhaps he did not trust it. I an guessing that he was trying to recapture his childish charm with the plastic surgery. The passion that drove him to do that probably also drove him to be so great.

Perhaps he was generally not comfortable in his skin for other reasons. I hope not. It is tragic regardless of the reason.

Everybody liked him far better as himself. He will not be remembered for his later work.

I don't read anything into the bleached skin.

[LanternWaste]

120. I'd hate to think that we base our opinions of people on elective surgeries

I'd hate to think that we base our opinions of people on elective surgeries.

Are dental whitening, breast augmentation, hair coloring, tanning, tattoos, colored-contacts, shoe-lifts, padded bras, teeth-straightening also indicative of "clearly hating one's own appearance?"

We are none of us so wise to judge a person's rational for any of the above unless we have an intimate knowledge of them... and even then, not so much.

[reflection]

48. Yep. That about sums it up.

And I loved pre-wierdo Jackson. He was so phenomenal at his art. Just tragic.

[rocktivity]

89. DING DING DING! Reflection, you're our grand prize winner!

I loved pre-weirdo Jackson.

I'd be listening to my Thriller album right now if I wasn't listening to the Mike Malloy Show. But I can tell you exactly when I jumped off his bandwagon--five minutes into the premiere of the Bad video. Both personally and musically, it was all downhill from there. How ironic that vitiligo would be the least of his problems.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[tinrobot]

6. There's a difference between weird and criminal.

[BuyingThyme]

8. I'm pretty sure that's what I just said.

[tinrobot]

17. He qualified as one, very very close to another.

[Catherine Vincent]

7. You can count on the internets for hateful remarks everytime

Ever since the death of Princess Diana, I'm no longer shocked at what some people type.

[liberalmuse]

9. I'm a fucking liberal, and that, by default, makes me a fucking weirdo.

Michael Jackson was an icon for anyone who came of age in the 1980's. Today we lost an icon each from 1970's and and the 1980's. I remember how incredibly huge both Farrah Fawcett and Michael Jackson were. It's really weird having people from your youth die like that. I took a peak in at DU during a busy day at work and I hope to hell no one is celebrating MJ's demise. That's for the Free Republic scum to do. MJ was odd, but he lived life as he saw fit, and became the person he wanted to be. What's wrong with that? (Disclaimer: it has never been proven that he was a pedophile, so I will not label him as such.)

[Avalux]

10. I just told my daughter I admire Michael Jackson as an artist, not as a person.

I am capable of marveling at his talent - especially how he danced without considering him personally. No judgment - just enjoy it.

She had never seen Thriller so we just watched it. Good stuff.

[Canuckistanian]

11. So, you're saying that fucking weirdos should get the respect they deserve?

Ok, I can roll with that.

[BrightKnight]

14. With all of the parasites piled on him

it is not possible to really know what he was about. Even the media reporting the stories was feeding on him. I see him as mostly tragic. I hope that he will be remembered for his talent.

If he truly was a pedophile then I can't excuse it. It is not possible to really know and he has clearly lost everything now.

[keepCAblue]

15. So was Elvis, but his death shocked the world in the same way. nt

[KoKo]

18. Let us "Weirdo's Know!" ...we are DOOMNED!

And...I mean this seriously. :-(

[malaise]

19. Professor Dyson just summed up MJ beautifully

That was great KO.

[EFerrari]

121. I missed that! Does anyone have a link to it?

Can't find it in the video forum.
ETA: Wait, I think it's up at his site. :blush:

[Raskolnik]

23. Or, maybe he was pre-judged because he was a sexual predator who molested children.

But let's not judge, right?

[BuyingThyme]

25. I don't think you understand the whole pre-judged thing.

[Raskolnik]

27. No, I think you are ignoring that there was a lot more than Jackson's idiosyncracies

that led people to believe he was a child molester.

[BuyingThyme]

Just because I acknowledge one thing doesn't mean I'm ignoring another.

[Raskolnik]

But the entire premise of your OP is that the reason people "pre-judged" Jackson is because

he was a weirdo. I'm pointing out that people had much more to go on than Jackson's status as a creepy, damaged, inappropriate weirdo.

[BuyingThyme]

77. The premise of my OP is that it's wrong to pre-judge people

based on the fact that they are different than you.

[Raskolnik]

82. Actually, if you look in the title line of your OP, you'll see your thesis statement right there.

Michael Jackson was repeatedly pre-judged because he was a fucking weirdo.

But whatever. If you think your actual point is something as banal as "don't pre-judge people based on the fact that they are different than you," who am I to argue?

[BuyingThyme]

83. That's not a thesis statement. That's just a fact.

[LittleClarkie]

80. Indeed, that would be sorta post judging eh?

Prejudging would be knowing nothing about the guy, seeing a pic, and deciding the guy was a freak.

[BuyingThyme]

85. Yes.

[Phillycat]

111. For real.

[hyphenate]

26. Pre-judge him?

I knew more than most people, and it never looked good. Whether he was legally innocent or truly innocent are two different things, and just because he happened to drop dead today makes little difference. No pre-judgement--I've always known he wasn't the innocent he tried to make himself out to be. Too many dead bodies and the smell becomes overwhelming.

[Solomon]

114. "You've always known he wasn't innocent"

Wow. Did he do you too?

[hyphenate]

117. Irrelevant

On topic, I would point out that some of us had sources that were impeccable, but are the kind of sources you can neither cite nor discuss openly. Does that surprise you? This has always been the situation, and if there is a price to pay, it just means you can't talk about it, no matter who you are, and what you know. As the people who talked with me about it are still working in the industry, I have to respect their wishes.

[shadowknows69]

28. He wasn't such the "weirdo" when the first charges came out

He was pretty much universally loved as an artist. There wasn't a jury at the time that would have convicted him but he chose the payoff option instead of a trial. That was a plea of guilty in my mind.

[ColbertWatcher]

29. He was a weirdo when the charges first came out. n/t

[shadowknows69]

74. Well the first allegation was around '93 so that was closer to his hey day.

He hadn't gone completely off the rails yet. Except that's when people started wondering about his "Never (be the same again) land Ranch".

[ColbertWatcher]

101. If the first allegation was 1993 ...

... I would have to say his oddness began around the time he got http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubbles_(chimpanzee)">Bubbles, which was 1985.

So, he achieved weirdness 8 years before the first allegation became public.

[shadowknows69]

102. I suppose there are degrees of weirdness and it is very subjective

Everyone was weird in '85. Personally if I had been accused of molestation in 93 and paid off the family instead of fighting it. The last thing I would do would be maintain a "ranch" where I invite young kids to stay with him for the weekend. MJ went the opposite way of the smart thing which would be to stop getting weirder.

Allegations of misconduct aside, just his bizarro way of having his kids, basically renting a couple women's wombs, made him beyond the realm of sympathy for me. He likely screwed those kids up for life. If he still had daddy issues that were plaguing him, he shouldn't have fabricated himself a family so he could almost assuredly repeat the pattern.

I still have no explanation for Elvis' daughter marrying him, but I'm certain there's a deal with Satan somehow responsible for it.

[ColbertWatcher]

109. Weirdness is subjective. n/t

[pnwmom]

30. I don't care that he was a weirdo. He condemned himself

with those videos with the boy, IMO. Also, when he settled with the other boy, which allowed him to avoid a criminal trial.

[WeDidIt]

32. I don't care that he was a weirdo

The pedophilia bothers me to no end, though.

[BuyingThyme]

33. That's good to hear.

How do you feel about torture?

[WeDidIt]

35. Bugs the shit out of me

almost as much as the pedophilia.

[BuyingThyme]

36. That's sound thinking.

[WeDidIt]

37. Yes, it is

Seeing as how a pedophile abused me as a child.

[BuyingThyme]

38. I think most people reject pedophilia regarless of their circumstances.

[WeDidIt]

39. Those who survive it more than most. n/t

[BuyingThyme]

47. I'm not so sure about that.

[WeDidIt]

49. How would you know?

[BuyingThyme]

51. Government statistics, newspaper articles, word of mouth.

[WeDidIt]

53. Links, please.

[BuyingThyme]

57. ..

http://www.findcounseling.com/journal/child-abuse/

[WeDidIt]

64. Your link fails to support your assertion.

[BuyingThyme]

66. It was your assertion that the link fails to support.

[WeDidIt]

68. Buh bye.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. I'm with you as a friend to weirdos

and all the people here who think they know what they do not, well, they are what they think they never could be- utterly in the thrall of the media.
One person came close on this thread to nailing it, but not quite for the right reasons. Admire his work, they said, don't admire him as a person. The reason to do that is not because he or any artist is a bad person or a good person, but because unless you happen to know them personally, what you 'know' is an artificial construct, and that is a simple fact. So the genius of the man was in the music, in the dance. In the work. The rest of what people 'know' is just the same as 'knowing' what a soap opera character is thinking. It is an illusion. Not just an assumption, an illusion.


The right to be something others can not even imagine exists, because they themselves are so corrupt and mundane, is a right worth fighting for!

[Geek_Girl]

93. Exactly!

nt

[BoneDaddy]

105. So are you a aggrophopic pedophile too?

Cause if that is your definition of weirdo, why the fuck would you want that?

[mzmolly]

42. I honestly think he has been judged because two children (that we know of)

accused him of child abuse?

[BuyingThyme]

43. I was talking about pre-judging.

[mzmolly]

45. Ahhh.

Gotcha.

[Bluenorthwest]

54. Two you say,? Well then!

That is less than they had at Salem, but what the hell!

[mzmolly]

81. Children are never credible due to Salem? Interesting.

Jackson's sister Latoya indicated (at one time) she believed he was paying off families in various cases, so it is possible that two accusations are merely the tip of the proverbial iceberg?

BTW, I'm not personally judging Mr. Jackson as I haven't a clue about his personal life. But, that does not mean I will demand others ignore various things that have been said about him and take a neutral stance.

[Generator]

44. It seems to me

The old DU-before Obama-before being Republican but calling it Democratic was cool was MUCH more liberal. Good Lord, you couldn't cheer for the conviction of a child murderer or dare say that OJ did it without hearing about endless innocence. Which I now miss. The old liberal bleeding hearts have hardened up and gone away.

First, I though MJ was guilty. Second, I always felt sorry for the dude. See, liberals used to be able to not be all about righteous vengeance. there used to be some compassion. He seemed to hate himself. And so many loved him. A paradox for the ages. A modern fable. A tragedy for all. Calling him a disgusting pedophile and freak sounds like a Glenn Beck sermon, which it's now okay on DU, now that we are "moderates" and all.

( I know how you mean weirdo-believe me-they are always in my peephood)

And I know that grave dancing is number one sport du jour here ALWAYS because rage against the dying light and piss on Daddy's grave- a twofer! Ah DU, the best times, the worst of times.

[BuyingThyme]

46. I don't know whether or not he was guiltily.

I just know that to judge a person because s/he's different is bullshit.

[norepubsin08]

50. Jackson sucked up to Reagan and Bush

Fuck Him

[BuyingThyme]

52. I'll buy that.

[janet118]

67. I thought Al Sharpton said that Jackson did major fundraiser . . .

for DNC at the Apollo Theater in 2002. Did I hear him wrong?

[konnichi wa]

56. Not to wish anyone ill but it would be interesting to see DU posts if Clarence Thomas

had dropped dead this afternoon. Talk about intersecting agendas...
:eyes:
\

[BuyingThyme]

59. Clarence is no weirdo.

He's just a dick.

[konnichi wa]

62. He is a weirdo dick.

He really is even more fucking sick than MJ was.

[BuyingThyme]

65. Coke and porn?

I'm not impressed.

[konnichi wa]

70. Okay, I am officially confused. Are you defending Thomas here?

It's cool if that is what you're doing, somebody probably should but I honestly can't quite dope out what you've said here...silly me...
:shrug:
\

[BuyingThyme]

72. I don't think Clarence Thomas can plead the weirdo defense.

He's just a dick.

[konnichi wa]

76. Okay, I see what you're saying. But I think some people can be weird and evil at the same time.

Sadly, some of them get appointed to high office.

[wickerwoman]

96. Don't forget the pubic hair.

:evilgrin:

[Sandaasu]

58. He was strange, yes, but I don't hold it against him.

I still scratch my head thinking about the changes he made to himself, but to each their own. I'm pretty damned weird myself. I'm also still not convinced about the pedophilia thing either. I can honestly see how he might have just really liked children. There's a sad assumption these days in general that enjoying the company of children means that you desire sexual contact with them, and people are too quick to assume that accusations of such relations are true.

[crim son]

60. I may be an idiot, but I think that the fact that he was a fucking weirdo

was his only sin, so to speak. I've never been able to believe he was a child molester, and I have felt so sorry for his obvious mental illness.

[konnichi wa]

75. Well, Timothy McVeigh suffered from mental illness too.

:shrug:

[crim son]

115. I get your point but I don't think the situations are comparable. n/t

[edbermac]

61. A guy who holds his baby over a 4th floor balcony is indeed a fucking weirdo.

So when I took a moment and asked myself why I rushed to judge him like that, this was my answer.

[BuyingThyme]

63. Judging a guy for holding a baby out a 4th floor balcony is not pre-judging.

You're safe.

[wickerwoman]

97. Also putting blankets over his kids' heads in public.

You don't have to sexually abuse kids to screw them up pretty badly. If he didn't have millions of dollars CPS would have taken those kids in a heartbeat.

[devilgrrl]

69. The media abused him since childhood, he created his own reality and I hope he's finally at peace.

RIP in Peace Michael.

[konnichi wa]

73. Let's just say this...he's lucky there is no hell.

Same consolation applies to Ronald Reagan.
And Nixon.
And..........many others.

[Raskolnik]

84. Its too bad that reality involved a bunch of little kids.

I feel sorry for him, too, but he was a monster.

[Triana]

78. ...

A FUCKING MEN!

:hi:

[KoKo]

86. That thought crossed my mind, too. How much was true about him...and what was trumped up

just because he seemed a "weirdo."

I imagine some books will be written. Still, there was much to like about some of his music and his place in time in the hearts of a generation before he became so very weird.

But...yeah... Those who are judged by some folks in power in some groups as "different" don't have an easy time of it these days...even though we are supposed to be "SO LIBERATED & Tolerant" here in AMERICA.... So, our media tells us, anyway...:eyes:

[fujiyama]

87. If it was just his appearance you're speaking of I agree, he was very strange

but we're also talking about possible criminal actions of pedophilia, which go beyond weird and into the realm of sick and perverted.

The fact is that he is alleged to have molested children. It tarnishes his legacy, which includes a lot more - immense musical and dancing talent (at his peak he was probably the most celebrated music star of all time internationally) and a generous philanthropist.

What happened to his life is a shame and tragic in his own way. If it was just his appearance that changed, it would be one thing. That too, it was several aspects of his appearance - both his skin and his nose/plastic surgeries. But of course it wasn't. He had little boys come and sleep over. He was a grown man. That too, they may have slept in the same bed. That sort of behavior goes beyond "Weird".

Of course, the allegations themselves will always leave many questions. And only the alleged victims know what really happened. Maybe they will reveal it one day. I find it unfortunate that MJ's friends like Elizabeth Taylor and family did not intervene earlier and get him off the path. I find it appalling that the parents would allow these children to stay at a strange man's house and that they would simply settle and walk away for a lot of cash.

[wickerwoman]

98. One kid could be a misunderstanding/scam... more than one speaks to a compulsion.

Having gone through one media firestorm why would MJ ever have another child alone with him?

When I was a teacher, I never, ever met with students with the door shut and I taught adults. If I had ever been accused of harassing a student I would make damn sure I was never in a position where those accusations could be made again.

I don't buy that it's prejudice to be cynical based on the second accusation.

Just because something hasn't been legally proven doesn't mean we should turn our brains off and accept every word that the accused person says.

[shadowknows69]

104. I just said nearly the same thing up thread.

[csziggy]

90. He was weird, but his life was extrordinary and that seemed to have driven the weirdness

While I have listened to much of his music over my life I really did not follow MJ's life closely. I just read the Wiki article on him and if it is to be believed, much of what made his to be perceived as strange was a combination of PR and stress. The article is at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson

His entry into plastic surgery was after he broke his nose while doing a dance routine. The original repair was badly done and interfered with his breathing. Apparently some of the subsequent work was done to fix the damage done originally. That and the burns he suffered during the Pepsi ad led to a complex about his appearance. His skin whitening was the result of vitiligo, which just increased that complex.

Some of the stories printed in the tabloids, such as the hyperbaric chamber and the Elephant Man bones were "leaked" by MJ himself - the first was part of the promo for "Captain EO," the second probably as a joke by MJ. He later regretted this kind of thing and became reclusive.

As for the accusations of pedophilia, according to the Wiki article the father of the first child to accuse him was open about making a profit off the accusations and the mother always denied there had been any abuse. MJ settled since the stress was jeopardizing his health and at the urging of his friends. As soon as there was a settlement, the father dropped any attempt at criminal charges. There were never any charges made by the prosecutors, who cited lack of evidence.

The second case - well, that one did go to trial and MJ was found innocent. Michael was described by a mental health professional as "a regressed 10-year-old" who "did not fit the profile of a pedophile."

Michael Jackson over his professional life was one of the most talented and prolific performers ever. He also donated huge amounts of money to charities and not just to a few, to more than thirty charities.

And by this year, he had pretty much settled his money woes. His work was still earning enormous amounts of money and he had worked out arrangements to get out of the debt he had been in previously.

This is all according to the Wiki article, but there seem to be enough documentation to believe that it is all true. Check it out for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson

[AntiFascist]

92. hide thread....check n/t

[saltpoint]

94. Some of my best friends are

fucking weirdos.

Actually, most of them are.

And darn it, that's ok.

[bertman]

95. There are lots of varieties of "weirdos". Some good, some bad. Artistic weirdos tend

to get more leeway than every day run-of-the-mill weirdos.

Some weirdos get carried away with their weirdness and do awful things. So I judge them harshly. Being weird does not give them a pass.

If you ask me, George Bush is about as frickin weird as they come and I have no problem whatsoever judging him to be a malevolent force in the universe.

[donheld]

99. What you said!

:hug:

[sam kane]

100. he molested children.

as a liberal, I am against defending child molesters.

they are usually fucking republicans, anyway.

[BoneDaddy]

103. Ok how bout a fucking pedophile

idiot

[elana i am]

107. weirdo?

i'd describe myself as a weirdo. i'd describe jackson as a pedophile.

and the man was more than just a weirdo, he was a true freak, and not in a good way.

[Dorian Gray]

112. Years of press coverage

about his inappropriate relations with children.

That's why I might judge him....



But I don't think that's prejudging. It's more like post-judging after information has been disseminated.

[Nye Bevan]

116. Turning himself into a white guy? Weird, but fine.

Having plastic surgery until his nose almost falls off? Weird, but fine. It's his nose.

Sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber? Peculiar, but fine.

Diddling pre-pubescent boys then paying their families millions of dollars not to press charges? Not so fine.

[GeorgeGist]

118. Michael was a victim of nonsense ... some of it his own.

Now he's reached Destiny where there is never any nonsense to spoil the best of anything. Not even fucking weirdos.

[GeorgeGist]

119. Cheney's a fucking wierdo.

[1]

124. sorry, bud. but isn't the whole point of being a weirdo to be a weirdo?

if everybody accepted you? you would be just like everybody else.

that's why we have weirdos. to differentiate...