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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:08 PM
Original message
How familiar are you with slavery?
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 05:15 PM by Blue_Roses
I just finished reading, Cane River, by Lalita Tademy and for those who haven't read it, DO, because it's an awesome read. It delves into the history of slavery through the eyes of a family generation. It will make you cry and it will make you mad, but one thing is certain is that you will begin to see a pattern of how positive change happens over time, but also, how this positive change will slow to a point of regression. Just when the slaves were freed and they thought things were much better, here comes the "night riders". But inevitably it always revives and begins working it's magic again.


I knew when Obama was elected, that change was in store for us--REAL CHANGE--but I really didn't think it was going to be easy or happen overnight and yes, I knew there would be disappointments. When you look at history through the lens of where we were over a century ago and where we are now, it is really remarkable.

Progress, true progress takes time, often with two steps forward and three steps back. But one thing is inevitable: change DOES happen. Perseverance is the key--something we have trouble with in this got-to-have-it-now society.






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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. "two steps forward and three steps back" means you're losing ground
It's change alright, but not the good kind.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. well, that's the point.
it would be living in a perfect world if change happened without any recourse.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Nope. You've got the metaphor wrong.
Three steps forward and two back might still be progress.

What you're advocating is capitulation.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. ...
you can use the "metaphor" however you like. Bottom line: there will always be obstacles to your goal.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Sorry, but if you're moving away from your goal that's a bad thing.
How can you not understand this?
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. moving away from a goal doesn't mean defeat.
and don't condescend me. You have no idea what I've been through myself to reach that "goal"...
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. He's saying, within your metaphor, you are making "negative progress".
He's not making any personal judgments about you. He's saying that... if you are taking 3 steps back for every 2 steps you make forward... then for every 5 steps you take, you are going 1 step backward.

You've created a math "word problem".

If you start at point A, and you take 2 steps West (left on a map, so we'll presume you're "progressing" to the "left"), but you then take 3 steps East. At that point, you are one step further East ("right" on a map, and hence "regressing" rather than "progressing") than when you began.

If you repeat said 2 steps forward and 3 steps back, you are at that point 2 steps further East than when you began.

This is not "progress", this is "regression". That is what the poster is telling you.

You need to either change your metaphor (3 steps forward, then 2 steps back... so that you have a "net gain" of one step forward), or accept that you've made what could be interpreted as a "Freudian" slip suggesting that you are actually arguing in favor of regression, rather than progress...
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. you didn't answer my initial question...
or maybe you did.

The metaphor is used in a rhetorical sense. Bottom line. Are you familiar with slavery?
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. Are you asking if I've ever been a slave?
Does "wage slave" count? I've done that...
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. No, But Read One Book, And You'll Be An Expert

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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Damn...just one book?
:eyes:
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. Jaysus... It Is THREE Forward And TWO Back

Unless your forward steps are significantly larger than the backwards ones.

At least get the freaking math right.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Are you trying to defend the obstacles here?
Because they make for better historical fiction 146 years in the future?...
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. the obstacles are not the point...
and no, I'm not defending them.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. If the obstacles are not the point, then what is?
That progress always and inevitably happens?

Tell that to the parents and grandparents in that novel.

I find it surprising that it's not the overcoming of the obstacles being lauded, but rather your point sounds like it is a call for patience.

When the opportunity to overcome an obstacle appears, patience is not what's called for. When Rosa Parks refused to move to the back of the bus... and there was a growing sentiment that something needed to be done... anyone who then preached patience was a fool. IMHO. It was, rather, those who "made noise" about it that are remembered by history as having been in the right.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You haven't read this book have you?
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 05:46 PM by Blue_Roses
Rosa Parks and MLK were catalyst for change, but if you think they didn't face obstacles, then you really don't the history of this.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. So you ARE defending the obstacles?
You're confusing me here... " but if you think they didn't face obstacles, then you really don't the history of this." that sounds like you're emphasizing the obstacles, and pushing the "overcoming" part to the background... but you said earlier that you weren't defending the obstacles.

And no... I have not read the book. After reading Their Eyes Were Watching God, Beloved, The Color Purple, Ralph Ellison's the Invisible Man, Richard Wright's Native Son, and Alice Walker's In Their Mother's Gardens... I frankly don't feel like spending my time reading this book you mentioned. I'm personally not a great fan of what I call the "family tragedy" genre... and from the sounds of your description of the book... I think my life will be no less rich for not reading it.

I hope you really enjoyed reading about obstacles though. If you keep hyping that book of obstacles... if you really stick with it, patiently, then maybe you'll manage to move a couple of extra copies.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. ...
Edited on Mon Jun-15-09 10:53 AM by Blue_Roses
what a pompous dumbass... :eyes:
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. If you mean slavery, then one needs to study that practice in all cultures throughout history.
If you mean a single fictional account then IMO it's unlikely a reader will become familiar with slavery by reading such a book.

One may as well expect to understand the South in the 19th century by reading Gone With The Wind.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. total ignorance...
to compare "Gone with the Wind" to this book--and frankly so many others.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. I'm so sorry you have "total ignorance". Study hard and you might overcome your difficulty. n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. You suggested that Gone with the Wind was historically accurate towards slavery.
Between that and all your other Southern apologia, you've really got no business calling anybody else ignorant.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Your post should be to #7 but perhaps you share in that posters malady. n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Do you have minstrel show memorabilia in your home?
Lawn jockeys, maybe?
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Have a good evening and goodbye. n/t
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. Oh brother -- Track 3 of "Get Back Under the Bus, Homosexuals"
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. oh, good grief...
:eyes:
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Roll your fucking eyes all you want -- that's what your OP says
And, the rank insensitivity of doing that TODAY?!
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. rolling my eyes
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 05:31 PM by Blue_Roses
has nothing to do with what's going today and for you to jump to this conclusions is flat out wrong!

It always has got to be a battle here on DU whenever someone tries to shed some "thoughts" on how this CAN happen.

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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. What else is new
:(

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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'd say I'm about 3/5 familiar with slavery.
Give or take.
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
14. The Arab slavers are still in business.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
18. Well as you can see now, reactions are a true litmus test.
Edited on Fri Jun-12-09 05:36 PM by redqueen
You either show the appropriate amount of outrage, or be branded as an apologist / true believer / homophobe / whaththefuckever.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I'm outraged at so many things right now...
starting with ...well, where to start?

For an 88 year-old man to shoot at a Holocaust Museum... and to think of all the ignorant rwingers propagating this makes me sick...that's a start and the list goes on...





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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Or, you can be silent rather than defend the indefensible.
I don't ask that you share my outrages.

I do ask that when I express my outrage you don't tell me I am not justified in being outraged, that I don't have a right to feel like I've been thrown under the bus - again, that I have no reason to feel betrayed, or that I need to wait my time, or similar condescending nonsense that minimizes the very personal impact things like today's brief by an Obama appointee have on my life, and on the lives of others similarly situated who are forced to live as second class citizens.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
24. Thanks
Have you read Thomas Thistlewood's Diaries edited by Douglas Hall.
That's a must read account of slavery from a cruel pervert.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. No, but I will check it out...
thanks :)
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marimour Donating Member (696 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
28. sounds interesting. I will add it to my list
"Progress, true progress takes time, often with two steps forward and three steps back. But one thing is inevitable: change DOES happen."

great quote. It really can apply to so many things that we struggle with in society.
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
31. True progress is mathematically impossible
with two steps forward and three steps back.

Change does happen, but the change that happens is REgress, not PROgress.

As to the real point of your post - I've been married and waiting for recognition for nearly 28 years. That's hardly "got-to-have-it-now."

Our daughter - the one we waited nearly 10 year to have in the first place - has reached adulthood and is still not legally related to one of her parents. That's hardly "got-to-have-it-now."

I have been uninsurable for 20 years; my daughter for 14. That's hardly "got-to-have-it-now."

Yes, change takes time, but as to the first two I've been waiting patiently long enough not to have to be quiet as I am insulted by a hand picked Obama AAG who argues that it is perfectly fine to discriminate against me because recognizing my marriage (that is of longer duration that most of the fools who voted for the marriage discrimination act) might cost the government money.

My poke at your mathematically illogical metaphor aside, there is a vast difference between "got-to-have-it-now" and being very angry that after more than a quarter of a century I am being told by an administration that actively courted my vote that I need to patiently sit in the back of the bus while he entertains bigoted dignitaries like Rick Warren and offensively (in both senses of the word) defends the indefensible marriage discrimination act - all the while repeatedly being told by supposed allies that the time isn't right and I can't expect instantaneous gratification.

You may not have been aware of what happened today, but this was a very bad day to post a mathematically illogical suggestion that people are being too impatient.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #31
41. I'm not talking specifically about one thing...
Edited on Mon Jun-15-09 11:01 AM by Blue_Roses
regardless of how much you and some others try to pin it that way. And as far as my "mathematical illogical", I have Dyscalculia... :eyes:

There is more going on than just this one decision.


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KQ9 Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
32. School
Not more than I took in highschool and that it stopped now...just another fuck up of our ancestors
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
37. Waffles.
Tasty waffles.


With butter and syrup.
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