Respectfully seeking input from gay people (especially men)

[octobermoonaeryn]

I've been lurking on DU for years (right around the time of the Bitch Wars) but have never participated because I'm just too busy. I need help now, though, and this is definitely the right place to go!

My 9 year old stepson is a sweet, innocent child who has been pretty well sheltered. His parents' amicable divorce is the biggest trauma he's dealt with, to our knowledge. (I have been in his life for nearly two years now, and he goes to a great public school, lives in a nice house, sees both parents regularly, has lots of friends, etc.)

I spend a lot of time with him, and my intuition is pinging that he may be gay. It's nothing terribly specific or explicit; just some glances I've seen him give to boys a little older than him, a few comments and questions, especially when politics is being discussed around here (his father and I are both radically liberal, his mother is very left-of-center, too). I have had numerous gay friends my whole adult life, and my "gaydar" is pretty good (I apologize for that fuzzy concept, but I think you know what I mean.) His father shares a similar intuition and is fine with it if that's how he turns out.

His father is going to have the birds-and-bees and in-the-next-few-years-your-body-will-start-changing talk with him in about a month (the summer between third and fourth grade being when he had the talk with the 9yo's older brother, and it was good timing). We are trying to decide how to tailor the talk to allow for the possibility that he may be gay. We would DEEPLY appreciate input from gay people, especially men, on what your parent(s) could have said to you as a child that would have communicated to you that being gay was a perfectly ordinary and normal possibility. Something as simple as "when your voice starts changing and getting deeper like Daddy's, you may start to think about girls all the time, or you may start to think about other boys all the time..." ??? I think we should emphasize that we love and support our kids no matter if they're gay, straight, etc., given that this is a religious part of the country and he's sure to get anti-gay messages from the culture. His father is a little more wary of that, feeling that a "disclaimer" only communicates the opposite of what we want (that there is something wrong with being gay, almost a "methinks the gentleman doth protest too much" kind of thing).

We are taking him to a movie tonight, but I will be back online in a couple of hours. Any input would be GREATLY appreciated.

Given the stepkids and being a fulltime employee and parttime student, I likely will go back to lurkdom after this thread dies, so let me also take the moment to thank the DU community for the emotional support you've given me over the years, even though you didn't know it!

[octobermoonaeryn]

1. one more thing

I can see that some of the posting I had to do before I could have enough posts to start this thread has already gotten me accusations of being a troll (I was asked if I like anchovies) which is laughable. Not having the time to build up 1000 posts for "credibility" is the reason I never registered before I had a real need for help. Please try to be a little more trusting, please, people? Just a nice red state liberal stepmommy here. :) Thanks again.

[omega minimo]

20. I hope for the sake of those replying to you

that this is real. And yes, your other post was deleted.

[LAGC]

22. Give her the benefit of the doubt.

I registered clear back in 2001 and only have a few dozen posts to my name, mainly lurking for most of this time...

I find I have alot more to learn through reading others' thoughtful posts than I do by contributing new ones myself, but thats just me.

[omega minimo]

23. certainly

despite lures elsewhere w/bizarreness about abortion followed by soliciting with this story, very personal information.....................

[octobermoonaeryn]

25. Would you please private message me?

I honestly, on the lives of my beloved family, have no idea why that post would have been deleted. It is an argument that has worked beautifully for me with "fertilized eggs are people" types. OK, sure, fine, call them people, but why do I have to use my body to keep another person alive if I don't want to? I've never had a forced-birther type give me a good answer.

I am TRULY perplexed as to your attitude??

[hedgehog]

2. There are a lot of us in similar situations, straight parents of gay children,

hearing parents of deaf children and parents of one race with children of another race or mixed race children. I applaud your love for this child which gives you the humility to seek help in raising him! Blessings on your family!

[octobermoonaeryn]

5. Thank you!

The one thing we want to avoid is the whole "OMG how do I come out to my parents" trauma. We want him to feel like it's not even an issue. The only question is how to best accomplish that!

[msongs]

3. why not have the birds chat n leave it at that unless the child initiates more.....no point to

putting a label on a kid just because of what you feel/think.

better to let a child know adults are available to talk if the child wants to talk and let the child bring up subjects IMO.

Msongs

[octobermoonaeryn]

6. I can see this point...

but the thing we're afraid of is that since the "how babies are made" talk involves a heterosexual union, it will be very hetero-normative. We don't want to do that, in case he IS gay. The question is how to find a happy medium, I guess.

[Voice for Peace]

38. Introduce him, expose him in a natural way to lots of different adult role models.

If he sees two men, or two women together in a healthy affectionate relationship it will say a great deal to him without words. If he hasn't yet had "gay" defined for him, his own questions will rise naturally about relationships, just from seeing the wonderful assortment. If you and his dad have gay friends, include them in family gatherings.

And indirectly, (my opinion) let him be aware that there *is* still, unfortunately, an issue around being gay. Because if he's subjected to ridicule at school, he needs to know what's going on, or he'll internalize it as "something wrong with him."

Let him be exposed to personal stories of courage & love. As naturally as one might expose a child to the history of race relations, or women's rights. Give him lots of choices for role models. Give him tons of love & fun times. Remind him how beautiful he is.

[readmoreoften]

4. What an awesome OP. Not a gay male, but lesbian with a TG partner...

I'm female with a female bodied partner (6 years) who's about to undergo SRS (sex change to male) and I just want to applaud your consideration of the child. He may be a straight male, he may be a gay male, he may be transgendered.

Regardless, my suggestion would be to largely keep it to explaining the physical changes about to come: facial hair, nocturnal emissions, voice changes, other body changes. If he were my son I'd tell him that as these changes happen, he'll find himself physically attracted to other people--that some people are attracted to boys, that some people are attracted to girls, and that some people are attracted to individuals regardless of whether they're boys or girls. I'd tell him that during this period, whatever he learns about himself is okay and good, that some people find adolescence to be a difficult time and others to be an easy time.

I agree with your friend, don't say "it's okay to be gay" as it implies that the issue is up for debate.

[octobermoonaeryn]

8. Thank you.

That is kind of what his father is thinking. I'm not sure how much homophobia he gets exposed to on the playground (his friends have never used "gay" as a negative epithet around me or his dad, but who knows how they talk when I'm not around? This IS the South, sigh.) So it makes me want to really emphasize the it's-ok-if-you-are idea, but yeah, it really does imply this is an "issue" and we don't want that!

We are taking the kids to a 9:00 movie (hooray for summer Friday nights at Dad-and-Stepmom's house!) so I will be back online later.

Thanks!

[readmoreoften]

11. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions or if things go pear-shaped

when the day comes. :)

The real issue will come if he does turn out to be LGBT. Both my partner and I got the "It's okay to be gay" speech, but, to varying degrees it wasn't completely okay when it happened. :)

[armyowalgreens]

10. I have a question though...

And this is purely for my own information.

Would it be important to identify the boys sexual orientation a little further down the road? I fear that gay teens who are not specifically encouraged by their parents to be gay are subject to the will of assholes outside of the home that will try to "turn them straight" and in the process can do a lot of harm.

It seems to me that while this subject is an extremely fragile one, being a little too vague in discussions could have negative effects.

But I have no experience with this and I could be completely wrong.

[readmoreoften]

16. I'd let the child lead on that one.

A parent should be steadfast in supporting the child no matter what. But if a pre-teen maintains that he or she is straight, even if its because he or she is responding to peer-pressure, it's not a parent's place to tell the child that he or she is *really* gay. It's just a hell that the parent will have to endure. The way to get around it is for the parent to clearly and unequivocally repeat his respect for LGBT people.

The one exception I would make is if the child was out and self-accepting and then psychologically abducted by "ex-gay" types. Then a parent can step in.

[Toucano]

7. Very thoughtfully put question.

I think "...you may start to think about girls/boys..." could be better put as "...you may start to notice new and different feelings."

Make the focus about him and his feelings, not so much the object of his feelings.

He has already received a lot of negative messages, and I think he may be more comfortable if you demonstrate your acceptance gay people outside of this specific conversation. It sounds like you probably already have and will continue to do that.

In this chat, that is specifically for him, the focus should be him.

[Sabriel]

9. I'm with Toucano

Keep the pronouns gender-neutral. I don't know how my kids are going to turn out, so I use "partner" and "love interest" and terms like that. And I provide lots of books with all sorts of people and relationships (with positive portrayals whenever possible).

[Toucano]

12. Your children are very fortunate. n-t

[lightningandsnow]

13. First of all, thank you.

I wish my parents had been like this when I was younger! My mother says she went into "mourning" when I came out (but eventually came to accept it), which made me feel awful. Your stepson is very lucky to have you!

I'd say, give the "birds and the bees" conversation, but keep all the terms gender-neutral. This is what I'd do for any child, anyway - it shows acceptance and puts less pressure on them. Then, I'd expose him to positive images of LGBT people, but in a subtle way...for example, is he interested in history? Art? Maybe tell him about Harvey Milk, or another famous LGBT person.

I hope this helps. Best of luck to ya! :hug:

[Ms. Toad]

14. Interesting question

My same gender partner and I have a very feminine daughter who - from anything she ever said - was boy crazy. She's been raised in the midst of gazillions of GLBT aunts and uncles and aunts who discovered they were uncles (and vice versa). We never really had any specific birds and bees talk with her - the topic just kind of popped in and out of whatever conversations we had.

She never dated in high school - although she clearly would have liked to - and her crushes were always clearly on males/boys.

So, driving her back to college this spring, I asked, "So, whatcha thinking?" She paused a bit and said, "About being a boy." Earlier she had changed the "Interested in" on her facebook page earlier from "Men" to "Men or Women" and what she was looking for from a "relationship" to "relationship or friendship." Based on her life to that point, I thought she was looking for a relationship with men or friendship with women - turns out it was either with either.

The point of all this is that many younger folks don't view gender or orientation as rigidly as us old fogies do. I don't know at what age that gender/orientation fluidity is starting - but it really may not be a big deal at all for your stepson. It is nice to know it isn't for his parents either.

[Stevenmarc]

15. Find a local PFLAG group and get their input

[comrade snarky]

32. Very good advice

Very good indeed. PFLAG is a marvelous resource.

[UTUSN]

17. So, Gayness is biological/(genetic?)!1 n/t

[FreeState]

29. ? Not sure what you mean by that but yes - most believe its biological and genetic n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

30. Yes

Not surprised this is new to you.

[Metric System]

31. Oh good grief.

[defendandprotect]

18. What I remember of these talks -- and I'm straight -- is that it might

be best to stay away from "me" and "you" . . .

IMO, better if you don't get personal about either the child or your experiences.

Speak about what happens to males and females -- not individuals.

"I have had numerous gay friends my whole adult life" . . . presume you've been

transported? But, along the way, if you are right, having some gay friends again

might be helpful?

I loved the story the other day about the two male penguins who had adopted an

orphaned egg. I imagine the library is full of stories now of homosexual couplings,

humans and in all of nature? That might help if he's a reader?

Good luck with it all and I hope you get some great advice from DU'ers.

[izquierdista]

19. I'm with armyowalgreens

And I DO have experience in this area. The important thing to do when having THE talk with a boy is to do it on his level, when he asks, and not when you think it is good timing. From my personal experience, 9 would be a bit too young, I didn't get the barrage of questions until the boy was 11. If he is naturally inquisitive, as most children are, the best way to broach the subject is to provide him with some reading material. There are plenty of pamphlets out there that explain the mechanics of sex and puberty quite better than you can hem and haw, forgetting the order of your presentation. The purpose of the pamphlet is only to open up the subject for discussion, and as you were the one to provide the pamphlet, you will be the one trusted to elaborate on topics that need more coverage.

Once the boy is comfortable in asking questions and getting answers, THEN you can include critiques of how society treats people who are out of the mainstream. Remember that in the preteen years, children fear being abnormal, whether it is age of puberty onset or sexual preference or whatever. They need to be gently reminded that they are not going to turn into freaks and they will grow up just fine. If you leave him with the idea that normal covers a lot more territory than what is socially acceptable (especially by religious social groups) it will be a lasting lesson.

I don't and wouldn't recommend trying to guess anyone's sexuality in order to tailor a specific message to them. For suppose you are right and he does have a gay inclination, is there some general all purpose gay message, or do you then have to find out if he is a top or a bottom? What if he turns out to be a versatile, or even worse, a switch-hitter? If you wait and provide him the information he asks for, you won't end up tailoring a message to the wrong target. I found that the best way was to be bluntly open about everything. That means you don't turn beet red while thinking of your answer, and he doesn't giggle listening to it.

[octobermoonaeryn]

26. This is very, very helpful. Thank you.

We are probably overthinking this, but at the same time, a powerful impression made at a pivotal time can be life-altering. We both have gay friends who went through HELL when deciding if/when to come out to their parents, and in our focus to try to prevent that difficult for him are potentially causing other problems/not seeing the whole picture.

[xchrom]

21. books -- hopefully stories

that cover both gay and straight 'sex' relationships for younger children.

by the time i was nine i knew where babies came from -- but not from mom and dad -- though dad did take me to a ymca sex ed class not too many years later. that was a disaster.

the point is to be normal with everything -- some boys like boys -- some like girls -- and we all figure that part out as we go along. -- though at nine i was already gay, gay, gay.

and yes i certainly looked at boys with curiosity when i was his age.

the stories are important because nothing is too concrete yet -- and gives room to breathe.

[Dappleganger]

24. As a mom to four

Three are teens and one a pre-teen, IMO what is helpful is having gay people in your life so they grow up seeing they are just like everybody else.

Talk to your kids. Listen and learn to ask good questions. Make it a point that whenever you get into the car, turn off the radio and talk some more. Try to talk as soon as they come home, because that's when what happened at school is fresh on their minds. If too much time passes they'll forget (get pushed to the back-burner).

And a giant YES to keeping things gender-neutral as much as possible. Don't push too much right now, and I have always thought 'The Big Talk' was a farce. Talking about sexuality and growing up should be purposeful, but an on-going regular conversation at age-appropriate levels. However, you need to make sure that many of those bases are covered at least the summer before the head off to middle school. They will step into so much crap there it's not funny.

Get to know your kids' teachers WELL. There may be a time when your child cannot talk to you and he/she needs to know there is someone safe to go to. Our oldest daughter had a rough year and her math teacher has been a real blessing and we have been richer for having another adult who can tell her things that we also say but our daughter listens to her better.

[octobermoonaeryn]

27. Many, many thanks.

The kid in question is in bed with a stomachache. (Poor guy ate a bunch of junk food and ran around in the sun all afternoon...)

I just read his dad some of the responses, and when we read the "gender neutral pronouns" stuff we both went, "OOOOOOOOOOOOH, okay." That takes a lot of the pressure off "the talk."

Thank you all so very much. Back to lurkdom. If my life situation arranges itself differently in coming years so I have more time for participating on discussion boards, I'll do so then.

Mr. Aeryn (the kid's dad) and I thank you!

[izquierdista]

28. A postscript

If you just can't wait and need to know about him right away, here's a test you can take: http://www.imdb.com/video/wab/vi3551855385/

[XemaSab]

33. I'd mention that not every time you have sex gets a baby

and people sometimes have sex just for fun. Tell him that when people are intimate, it's not just about having sex but about a variety of feelings and activities with the person you care about.

Don't encourage him to have sex, but having a sex-positive attitude might help with the whole "OMG! I have to have teh sex with teh wimmins and get teh bebbes!" concern. Which in turn might help with the whole "OMG! I want to have sex with teh boyz!" (If he turns out that way. He might be completely straight.)

And in a few years, DEFINITELY give the safe-sex talk.

[Beam Me Up]

34. I knew I was gay by age six, maybe earlier.

This was in the '50s, though, before the word "gay" was commonly used as at is now. This was also in a very rural part of the midwest. So, how did I know and what, exactly did I know?

What I knew was that I enjoyed pleasuring myself and what I discovered was that other boys around my own age enjoyed it too. I also learned very early that there was a "taboo" about that -- that one had to keep all this hidden, especially from adults but almost equally especially from other kids. It was something done in secret, not talked about, except in privacy with another boy. Consequently there was a lot of guilt, shame and fear associated with it which, in my teen years, turned into a kind of rebelliousness. Personally, I couldn't figure out what the "big deal" was about "sex" in general (putting the word in quotes here because what I'm referring to is mostly masturbation and mutual masturbation). It wasn't something that happened often but it did happen and by the time I was eight years old it was clear to me that I derived pleasure from looking at other boys, not girls. I discovered this looking at pictures of naked women another boy had shown me. No lust. Now, pictures of naked men or seeing naked boys (PE class, swimming hole)? Quite the contrary. It was a turn on. AND I knew I had to pretend just the opposite. It was very confusing.

I bring this up because I think one of the most difficult things adults have to deal with is realizing that kids -- at least some kids -- have erotic feelings from a very early age. The thing is, it is very difficult to make general statements. Sexual development is pretty much a mystery and quite complex with many variables from the individual to the immediate environment of social possibilities. Had there not been opportunities to explore my erotic feelings with other boys (and it was much easier and more common than the possibility with girls), I'm not quite sure what I would have made of it all. Certainly no adult had a "talk" with me about any of it. The closest came in my early teen years from my mom, which simply didn't work. I just sat through the whole thing rather dumbly, nodding my head. Clearly she didn't have a CLUE!

The most difficult time came in my early teen years. When I was twelve I fell in love with another boy in my class. This happened when we were on a Boy Scouts outing and we wandered off together, away from all the other boys. We were walking through the woods and walked into a field. He looked around and said, "Isn't this beautiful? When I grow up, I wan to own some land like this." It was a very intimate moment. I had NEVER heard another boy speak of "beauty," something I also saw and felt. I'd liked him before this but hearing him reveal this inner experience shocked me so deeply I fell in love with him on the spot. It was like a bolt of lightening. I had NO idea what to do with it. I knew I wanted to share more with him, to get naked with him, but despite the experiences I'd had, I didn't have any idea how to make that happen under the circumstances. The whole thing just sort of overloaded my circuits. We never did, by the way, even though we each slept over at the others house -- in the same bed. I just couldn't 'go' there -- it was too intense. Later my parents moved to a new location and although I continued to see him occasionally, we no longer went to the same school. Was probably just as well. But I continued to have a crush on him until I was in my early 20s!

I tell all this to try and give a picture of what can happen. Yes, I wish my parents would have been accepting of my sexuality (they most definitely were not), it would have made a big difference. But even had they been, the problem was a social one -- the society of other kids and the larger society beyond them composed of their parents and other adults. Homosexuality is NOT accepted in this society. Individual people within it may "accept it" more or less but over all there is prejudice. Anyone growing up gay, regardless of how accepting their parents may be, is going to have to come to terms with it themselves. I recall a few years back a story about a teenage boy who committed suicide because he was gay, even though he had parents who were accepting of it. (Anyone else recall that? I can't remember the details.) So, to me, the most important thing for a parent, beyond being "accepting" is to realize that growing up gay IS different than growing up straight. It requires a completely different set of adjustments. Between the ages of 13 and, I'd say, 16 or 17, were the most difficult years because, especially in those days, there were NO role models. Worse, things were "expected" of me (being interested in sports, cars, girls, "boy" things) that, for me, basically held little to no interest at all. (This was, in part, also connected up with the "rebellion" I mentioned earlier. Outwardly I didn't look particularly "rebellious" but inwardly I was looking at the world from a completely different vantage point from other kids and adults around me -- AND had to do this ALL on my own.) It took me many, many years to come to a full acceptance OF MYSELF.

So, to me, there are two things. If you truly love someone, a child, then just let that show, let that be the guiding principal. Be there. Do more listening than talking. Let him/her guide you. Try to understand how life might look from their point of view. What is sex for (if not making babies)? What does a horny kid DO with that energy? What do we need to learn to grow into sane, compassionate, loving adults? Clearly, having good role models is important. Learning about personal BOUNDARIES is also important. That it is OK to have them, to enforce them and respect them in one's self and others. Learning how to accept one's self, especially in the face of prejudice -- which is very real. Personally, I don't think anyone, even good, loving parents, can spare their children the "slings and arrows" of growing up. Learning about them and how to deal with them effectively is a part OF growing up. Learning how to dodge them when necessary, how to fight back when necessary, to choose one's battles, so to say, I don't think there is a "one pattern fits all" answer. It takes sensitivity, intelligence, a willingness to let the child-adolescent lead and respect them and love them for who they are.

Hope this helps.


Edit typo

[Libertyfirst]

40. The best brief statement on the topic I have ever seen. n/t

[dickthegrouch]

35. The single thing that would have helped me most

Was knowing someone else who was 'interested' in me. I was 19 before anyone told me they thought me attractive. I grew up in a rather rural area (I'm 52) and went to a school with 450 other boys. I suspect I was too easily guessable as gay for many of the others in the school, but I also got more forward, and more frustrated, by my apparent inability to attract anyone.

I had to leave home and go to college before I found other people who were out enough to be able to cope with me. Of course, I then immediately had problems because they wanted to 'play' and weren't serious and I was so sheltered I was still in the mindset that the first person I had sex with was going to be my husband for life. It took a long time for me to get past the notion that I wasn't a complete degenerate for having 'played' with more than one person.

Anyway your son needs to *know* that he's loved. From what you say, I don't think he'll have any trouble with that from you and his father. My parents were mostly supportive (I told them when I was 16, and again when I was 19 :) ) but their support could not come close to mitigating the loneliness I experienced not having anyone to explore the feelings with. If there is a GLBTQ - the Q stands for Questioning - group in your area ask if he wants to go? (They generally won't take people under 14, so you have plenty of time to start one :) ). The teen group in my area is quite popular and many of the older ones actually helped during the No on Prop 8 campaign. Just make sure that the chaperones explain and enforce rule #1: "Respect each other"; rule #2: "No" means "No", and rule #3: "Don't assume anyone's sexuality just because they're here."

[SmileyRose]

36. My advice

is that when I need advice about interacting on a level/culture/world (whatever you want to call it) I don't fully understand - I turn to the people I actually know in real life who live there. You said you have numerous gay friends. You should probably put the Dad in touch with them since apparently Dad doesn't have any gay friends of his own to ask. (Maybe he could put an ad for a gay friend in the paper).

[Toasterlad]

37. It's a Lot Different Today Then When I Was a Boy

My first instinct whenever anyone asks about "birds and bees" talks for possibly gay kids is to tell them NOT to discuss anything "gay" at all. I was terribly self-conscious about my sexuality when I began to realize I was gay, and was terrified of having anyone discover "what I was". Thankfully, for many children nowadays, "gay" isn't such a stigma, but as you live in a red state, it might still be an issue for your son. I would make the talk as broad as possible, and cover not just male-female and male-male permutations, but female-female as well. Just make it as inclusive and non-personal as possible. Talk about love and sex in general terms. I would agree with your husband that you should avoid the "some people hate gay people" aspect of the talk; as long as you communicate that YOU will love your son no matter what, that part can wait until he comes to you and asks you about it. More importantly, if he sees you reacting negatively to instances of bigotry, without him in context, he'll believe that you really WILL support him no matter what. An overheard conversation between you and your husband about how you were pleased with the recent victories in Iowa and New England, or how disappointing the verdict in California was, or a simple small expression of disgust when you see an anti-gay sign or ad, could do more for your son's confidence than saying to him directly that it's alright to be gay. If he knows that you have no problem with ANY gay people, he's more apt to believe you won't have a problem with HIM being gay.

Good luck.

[renate]

39. With my kids it wasn't tied in with the birds/bees talk

From the time they were tiny, whenever we talked about growing up, if we were talking about partners we talked about having a boyfriend or girlfriend, or falling in love with a man or a woman, or living with a man or a woman. We didn't say "it's okay to be gay" because, as you and other people have stated, that implies that there's any debate about it; I hope and assume that by using phrases like "boyfriend or girlfriend" so matter-of-factly, the kids picked up that either option was perfectly natural. So with us it wasn't part of our "sex talks," it was part of our "life talks." (They're already bashful enough about the sex talks in general that they don't want to feel like we're talking about THEM, specifically, having SEX.)

My son is old enough now to feel certain he's straight, so I just refer to girlfriends etc, because he finally told me ("sheesh, Mom!") I didn't have to talk about boyfriends any more. But with my younger child I still talk about both, because I haven't been told to do it any differently.

Your situation is somewhat different because you have a distinct idea that your stepson is gay--I never really had a clue either way. So maybe having a few gay-friendly "what's happening to my body" books around might be a subtle way of starting a discussion, or at least of giving him 1) information he might not get from the sex ed. talks at school and 2) the impression that you wouldn't have chosen those books if you weren't comfortable with at least the possibility of his being gay.

He'll be fine, whatever you do, because anybody who cares enough to want to do this right is a darned good parent.