Disgusting. We will not be able to protest for health care. They won't let us.

[Cleita]

I was just catching up with today's Thom Hartmann's radio show pod casts and he interviewed Dr. Flowers, a pediatrician who was one of the protesters arrested for speaking up for single payer representatives at Senator Baucus's committee hearings for health care. The Senator was conducting a meeting with all the corporate insurance and health care industry representatives, but would not allow even one single payer universal health care advocate to speak. She and others were arrested for disrupting the meeting. However, usually these arrests only amount to getting a citation. Today, Dr. Flowers says they are going to be charged with multiple charges that could get them six months in jail if Senator Baucus doesn't drop the charges. There is nothing in the media about this. All I could find was a link to the original story.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/may/baucus_healthcare_pl.php

I don't think anyone who wants meaningful health care reform should let this go. Contact Senator Baucus's office and demand that he drop charges on the doctors and nurses who were arrested that day for exercising their freedom of dissent, which at one time was protected by the Constitution.

Senator Max Baucus
511 Hart Senate Office Building,
District of Columbia 20510-2602
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

[FiveGoodMen]

1. That's it. The Democratic Party is dead.

And dead to me.

Nader was right after all. There is no difference.

[Cleita]

2. It will be if we don't start holding our politicians feet to the fire to make

them do the right thing. Nader isn't going to do anything for you. He's already proved that he's a one trick pony that shows up and spouts off once every four years.

[Fumesucker]

9. How do you plan on "holding their feet to the fire"?

Honestly, I don't understand what can be done..

[Cleita]

12. For one, contact his office and tell him you are disgusted.

If enough people do it they get the message.

[Fumesucker]

22. Unless your "contact" involves a big check they simply don't give a damn..

I still remember the run up to the Iraq war when contacts against the invasion were running 100-1 against in some offices and they voted for it anyway.

I've called, sent letters and faxes and it feels like they're dropping into a black hole for all the good it does.

[Cleita]

23. They give a damn if there are thousands and preferably millions of contacts.

Unfortunately, in the lead up to the Iraq war, the Republicans were in charge and then they really didn't give a damn. No matter how inconsequential your one letter or phone call seems, when they are multiplied by many, there are results. They are now talking about a public option even though it was "off the table" when discussions began. This is different though it's about mistreating those activists who chose to exercise their rights to dissent.

[Johnnyheadstone]

73. Anyone that thinks any elected official

Who cares even one drop about the phone calls and letters is totally fooling themselves...if you don't write a big big check you don't mean a damn damn thing.....

Face facts we have 1 political party in this country, and it is already bought and paid for....

Every so ofen they do something to save face and prevent people from rioting in the streets....this is what happened in the late 1960's with the civil rights movement (and notice they gave just enough to say there was a change, without changing anything...I am speaking of course about focred economic segregation...we are all aware of it, but it never gets mentioned) and whenever someone popular sticks their neck out and says "hey wait a second this is wrong" and people start paying attention, that person ends up dead...here are some examples....

JFK
RFK
MLK Jr.
Paul Wellstone
Pat Tilman

I'm sure we could add more and more to the list...but you get the point....if your bank account balance does not stretch to at least 10 places or so...you don't mean a damn thing except as another piece of meat to keep the rich rich and the rest of us fighting each other....the sooner we all accept it, the sooner we can do something about it (I am talking about public financing for all elections)

[Cleita]

74. Yes, ultimately we need to demand public financing although I

believe it has to be done at a local level. Don't quote me. I'm not sure, but election rules are local and I think this would apply.

btw Welcome to DU. :toast:

[edc]

116. Yes.

We might be able to get public financing at the local level immediately, but the fall back position could be that no private money from outside municipal, county, or state sources be allowed in. For instance, your mayor or commissioner would be prohibited from taking money from beyond the town or county border, congressmen from outside their districts and senators from out of state. This restriction would include national political parties. They would be out of the money end of the campaign game.

The only reason I mention this is that when even this and all forms of reasonable reform are ignored, progressives may finally realize that they won't influence these fuckers with either good ideas or ballots.

[defendandprotect]

147. Yes, agree -- however, we have to keep trying...in various ways....

ENDING CAMPAIGN FUND BRIBERY IS WHERE I THINK WE HAVE TO BEGIN UNRAVELING IT...

[defendandprotect]

143. We're depending upon corporate shills like Baucus to get Single Payer?

And other Dems like him to end Campaign Bribery?

We have to find a way to end this Merry-Go-Round of BRIBERY and

party-corporate clout!!

[Greyhound]

40. Sadly, most of the few us that actually pay attention to this stuff still cling to the desperate

hope that we will be heard.

Wait until the end of the year, early next at the latest, and we will see how dedicated or desperate the sheeple become. That is when the matter of whether we still have a voice or not will be settled.

[truedelphi]

53. Even if the Obama Administration would suddenly decide to seriously

Consider Single Payer Universal Health Care, Bernanke, the person who with Geithner is really in charge of what gets funded and what doesn't, will see to it that it will not get the money.

He already told Congress earlier this week that the pesky "entitlement" programs are jeopardizing Wall Streets's recovery.

Our nation will be lucky if we are somehow able to hold on to Social Security - let alone Health Care reform with meaning.

[Greyhound]

56. When/if things get as bad as many of us believe they will, we may see

something along the lines of The American Monetary Act and Wall Street and it's minions can become irrelevant with the stroke of the Presidents pen.

[defendandprotect]

145. What's American Monetary Act?

Anything you want to add to this?
Note it was around in the 1930's?
Haven't read all available on it, but will try to catch up!
Love, Kucinich!
-----------------------


Urgency of the American Monetary Act
By Richard C. Cook
May 9, 2009

Published by After Downing Street.org.

On Thursday, April 23, 2009, Stephen Zarlenga, director of the American Monetary Institute (AMI), delivered two briefings on Capitol Hill on the American Monetary Act that AMI drafted and that may be introduced as legislation during the current congressional session. This single measure has the potential of bringing together the tens of millions of people who have realized it’s our bank-run debt-based monetary system that lies at the center of the financial rot that is destroying our republic and its values.

Attending the briefings were congressional staffers and members of the public. Zarlenga was introduced by Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), who has spoken in favor of wholesale reform of the monetary system on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives. Kucinich is also sponsor of H.R. 7260, the “Transparency in the Creation of Wealth Act of 2008.” This act would require the Federal Reserve to resume reporting on the quantity of M3 in the economy (mega-money accessible only to large financial institutions), along with several other economic indicators it now keeps to itself, such as total credit market debt and the holding of Federal Reserve notes by foreign interests.

Stephen Zarlenga is author of The Lost Science of Money (American Monetary Institute, 2002), a monumental 736-page book that shows how money has served socially beneficial purposes throughout history only when created by governments as an instrument of law and not as the private preserve of the rich.

Hugh Downs, an unusually well-informed media personality with a strong social conscience, said of The Lost Science of Money, that it “has some stunning historical vistas of the whole concept of media of exchange.” Renowned progressive economist Dr. Michael Hudson said, “The history of money is critical to understanding the greatest problem the third millennium will face. Stephen Zarlenga's Lost Science of Money provides the needed background for seeing the basic structural issues at work.”

Since Zarlenga published The Lost Science of Money, the American Monetary Institute has grown, with chapters in Boston, New York, Chicago, Iowa, Seattle, and other locations. He conducts an annual monetary reform conference at Roosevelt University in Chicago and has a busy travel and speaking schedule. He has addressed audiences at the U.S. Treasury Department in Washington, D.C., and the British House of Lords in London.


http://pdamerica.org/articles/news/2009-05-09-12-15-56-news.php

[Greyhound]

182. That's the one. I read about it found that what I thought was a great idea I had

was already fully fleshed out and ready to go.

Three fundamental changes and we become fully compliant with the US Constitution and rid ourselves of what many of the founding fathers tried so hard to free us from.

Of course it will kill much of what we now know as the financial industry, but the ordinary working people will be so much better off in so many ways that I don't believe there is any chance that we would return to the usurious debt/theft system we all don't understand.

Even Henry Ford, hardly the model of generosity said, "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

And who better to champion such a bold, non-partisan move than Dennis Kucinich? Once again, he has the right idea in time to actually help the working class people of the United States.

[defendandprotect]

191. I'm with you . . . .

Hadn't heard about it and haven't still yet fully read it -- but I'll save it
for a slower time -- somehow I can't catch up with all the websites and links
I pick up at DU -- all good!!

Thanks for bringing it to my attention --

Capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended to move the
wealth and resources of a nation from the many to the few.

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime!

:)

[Greyhound]

198. Zarlenga's book is a monster, 700+ pages of dense economic and monetary

theory along with the fundamental need for and history of currency. Not light reading if you know what I mean. The three main parts of the Act are;

Incorporate the Federal Reserve Banks into the U. S. Treasury

Eliminate Fractional Reserve Banking

Resulting in the elimination of "debt money" to replace it with real money represented by treasury bills backed by the real assets of the nation.

If you Google "american monetary act" in the news section, you will cut out most of the reviews and critiques of Zarlenga's book. There are two pieces from OpEd news that I think pretty well sum it up.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Way-Out-by-Richard-Distelhors-090528-664.html">The Way Out and http://www.opednews.com/articles/Reviewing-Ellen-Brown-s-W-by-Stephen-Lendman-090518-664.html">Restoring National Sovereignty with A Truly National Banking System

It's a very big step in the right direction.

[defendandprotect]

208. Thank you . . . in a rush at the moment . .. back later --

[truedelphi]

210. Thank you for reminding me of the American

MOnetary act. It is pretty close to the type of reform I beleive is needed.

[defendandprotect]

148. We have to start a BOUNCE Baucus, Bernanke, Summers, Geithner chant . . . and keep at it!!!

[texastoast]

111. We have to stick together and be VERY NOISY

And call our media outlets and say, "Dudes and dudettes, where is this story????"

We've killed the Trans Texas Corridor one more time (the sumbitch is just like Jason--won't die), and it was completely grassroots activism that did it. Rick Perry is pissed at all us little folk.

It's going to be the same way with this. Big money wants one thing, and the people need another.

[Grinchie]

118. It's easy, make it so cold and unfriendly that they are forced to seek our bonfires.

The only way the economic powers are going to be swayed at all is if the people actually stop enabling them. The only way to do this is to stop consuming, stop being good Americans (I.E) Trusting Sheeple buying what they tell us to.

The Economic calamity that would ensue if every single America realized that there is NO LAW on the books making Income Taxes on the Wages in exchange on and individuals Labor Mandatory. All it would take is for every wage earner to claim EXEMPT on their W-4, and then file a 1040 on their real taxable gains, such as Interest and gains from business activity.

It surprises me to this day that most people do not realize that they voluntarily hand over tax based on their Gross Income from all sources, while Corporations over the years have rewritten the laws in their favor, to be only liable for taxes on Net Incomes, which means they get to pay the costs of all operating expenses, rents, leases, legal fees, economic hitment, etc, and then deduct those costs from the taxable income they are required to pay.

If more people knew this little fact, they would scream bloody murder, Considering the proliferation of "Fees" and "Surcharges" recently developed by Corporations to siphon more money off the consumer. Of course, these fee's never show up in the Consumer Price Index, so they are basically a hidden inflationary force in the market.

One need only recall the repetition of the word "Efficiency" bellowed by all the economic yes men over the last 20 yeas. My question is, with all this so called efficiency, which ultimately reduces employment due to Automation, why do we see a proliferation of Fee's and Service charges where none have been levied before. Efficiency usually does not increase costs, unless you live in the Bizzarro world of the Fraction Reserve Monetary System, piloted by the Federal Reserve for their own interests.

We are on the way to mass awareness that we are all being played for fools. The result can take many pathes, and I doubt people have the stomach for armed revolution. It never worked in the past, other than swapping one ideaolgy for another, which then corrupted itself when it found the end result too difficult to manage.

I believe that more people should try to identify with the complexities of the Human body and keep in mind that the trillions of individual cells work together in harmony. When we get Cancer, some cells have decided that they are unhappy with the way things are, and decide to start a new life. They are not the disease, but an indication of deeper, more systemic problems, which enabled the cells to ignore the physical order and go off on their own.

In the Human system, this uncontrolled growth leads to damage on the vital organs and ultimate death unless the Cancer is stopped from reproducing.

The Corporations are the Cancer and they have invaded more of our system than is Healthy. We enable these entities to thrive, and finance them with Monopoly money and Military budgets. The system is a whole is becoming ill from their excess consumption and pollution.

We as a whole need to cut off the nutrients that feed the Corporations, which now controls the Government, and slowly clean up the mess it leaves as it dies out. Hopefully, the putrefying mass after the death of the cancerous Corporation won't ultimately kill the patient, but it's definately a possibility.

[BelgianMadCow]

130. 2nd your post

and I help you hope we are on a path to awareness.

[rhett o rick]

132. How do we hold their feet to the fire. Incumbent Democrats are in for life unless

you vote republiCon.

[defendandprotect]

150. Right . . . we need IRV voting .. . so I guess we have to ask the crooks to give it to us -- !!!???

[rhett o rick]

173. Damn, foiled again. nm

[Omar4Dems]

215. Maybe if we start doing it literally instead of figuratively?

:shrug:

[FiveGoodMen]

109. I'm not a Naderite.

Just saying that he seems to have been right.

Dems talk a better game (some of the time) but their actions of late have been worthless.

If we don't get better people in DC than we've got now, we're sunk.

And if we keep blindly supporting people with a D behind their names, those people will keep pandering to the 'Murkins.

[defendandprotect]

151. Obviously ....

you know nothing about what the man has been doing for the last 50 years!

You know about the buying of government and elected officials because Nader

has been reporting that for decades!

Among many, many other things!

[Cleita]

152. I've been around as long as he has and have known about him

probably since before you were born, and yes he's right about a lot of things. But he really isn't going to step up and help get anything done. Just look at what he's done in the last eight years, not a helluva lot. It's time to stop looking upon him as some kind of patron saint.

[defendandprotect]

172. "Yes, he's right about a lot of things" . . .

He stepped up in 2000 and got scapegoated by the Dems because they refused to
deal with the steal -- same as they did in 2004.

As far as I know Nader has done what he has always been doing over the past 8 years .. .
working against corporatism and trying to protect citizens/consumers.

I think even he was shocked at the level of fascism he saw in 2000 -
You expect it, but when it happens, it's still shocking.

Corporatism has shut out many like Nader where government is now taken over by
lobbyists -- and campaign fund raising consumes most of the time of elected officials.

We have a rotting system -- and what is clear is that the remedy is going to have to
come from doing something other than what we've been doing if we want different results!

I have a great deal of respect for Nader, but have never seen him as a "patron saint."

If you've been around since before I was born, we're both getting up in years!!!

[Cleita]

175. I'm looking back not forward. Are you there yet?n/t

[defendandprotect]

176. Time is moving . . .

at Merry-Go-Round speed now and I think roller coaster is next -- !!!

Very late 60's . . .

[Cleita]

177. Different generation.

Late sixties had all my friends give me a wake for turning thirty. I couldn't be trusted anymore. :-)

[defendandprotect]

184. No . . . . . .

I'm in my late 60's . . .

I was 30 in 1970 . . .

[Cleita]

192. Damn, we were both born in 1940, I would believe.

:grouphug: They all hated us, our parents and the younger ones. But we are the ones. :patriot:

[defendandprotect]

209. Yep . . .

time flies!!!

:)

[IntravenousDemilo]

3. QFT!

[lapfog_1]

4. 4 months into the Obama administration

and it is as if you have completely forgotten the 8 LONG YEARS of the evil that was the Bush Criminal Enterprise.

Yeah, one asshole Senator is on the take with Insurance and Big Pharma and you are willing to say "that's IT, they are all the SAME!".

I quit the Green Party over this insanity.

I hope I don't have to put up with it here at DEMOCRATIC underground.

[EFerrari]

13. What insanity are you talking about? This thread is about protesters

that face felony charges filed by BAUCUS, not OBAMA.

[lapfog_1]

18. The insanity of "Democrats" are just the same as Repukes.

And by Democrats, the poster didn't bother to list some DINOs, they meant ALL Democrats.

Like Al Gore.

Because the whole thrust of the 2000 campaign by Nader (and his followers) was "Gore would be just the same as Bush".

Or has everyone forgotten that?

[EFerrari]

19. You are off topic Maybe you should start a new thread. n/t

[lapfog_1]

37. Perhaps you should direct that comment to the poster I responded to. - n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

21. Four months is no time at all to repair all the damage that was done.

However, it's way more than enough time to declare your support for good policies.

Instead, Obama has indicated his intentions to ...

Continue the War on Drugs
Continue Government Secrecy and Censorship (the torture pictures, for instance)
Continue use of Signing Statements
Continue Warrantless Wiretapping
Continue DADT
Escalate the War in Afghanistan
Prevent prosecutions for war criminals (reversing Nuremberg)
Institute preventive detention
Help Wall Street at the expense of everyone else

...among other things.

The four month argument doesn't enter into it.

He's pushing in all the wrong directions.

We despised Bush for precisely these same things.

[SammyWinstonJack]

72. "We despised Bush for precisely these same things."

Sing It! :applause:

[jgraz]

112. Truth is truth

No matter how many people on this site don't want to hear it.

[Greyhound]

41. Are you off your meds? n/t

[lapfog_1]

42. Did you something to say?

I am tired of coming to Democratic Underground and seeing stuff like the post I was responding to...

"whine, whine, whine... Democrats don't deserve our support... whine, whine, whine, They aren't any different than Republicans!!!... whine, whine, whine... I'm DONE with the Democratic Party."

Look, I don't like it that "single payer is off the table". I don't like it that protesters were arrested.

I don't like a LOT of things (The list is LONG now, but I'll start with some spineless leadership in Congress when Democrats actually HAVE significant majorities).

But I'm really tired of the complaint that "Democrats are just like Republicans".

Folks here don't like the Democrats (as a group or organization or party), then go post at GreenPartyUnderground.com or wherever.

If I'm off my meds, it's because I can't afford ANY meds right now. But, for the record, fortunately I don't need any meds currently except for some Advil. You want to mail me a bottle, I'd appreciate it.

[Greyhound]

62. If it were one Senator, I would be ecstatic, but our "hope and change" President

has not moved to change any of the substantial and dire issues we face in four months. Rather, he has taken steps to ensure that there is no hope for any change (unless you count spare change from the parasites that created this). He is the leader of the party and primary conduit to push it toward our goals. So far, he is blowing it and quickly running out of time.

His popularity will inevitably evaporate and the opportunity will be lost forever, and you and I will still not be able to get any meds while the need for them will continue to escalate.

Looking back though, I was out of line in my initial comment, my apologies.

[Grinchie]

123. In Government, they are both Corporate shills, Demo or Republican

It is clear that while certain bits of rhetoric define each party, the reality is that the Corporations have more power and protection than the Government, so the Government is transforming itself into yet another big Corporation with a fancy, swell, PR Division. They even have two subdivisions, Called Liberal and Conservative, but they both report to a single higher authority. Unfortunately, the Constitution needs to be deprecated first, and as you know, we don't take to kindly to that sort of thing here.

Despite their amazing ability to Paint Lipstick on any pig that shows its face, they are not infallible, especially when it comes to the recent actions by the current administration. Obama is likable, yes, there is no doubt, however, the Continuity of the Government towards increased control and power continue without abatement.

While you can defend Obama that he may be coerced, I could possibly agree with that statement. But the fact remains that serious issues are causing the administrations to continue down the path dictated by the central banks and empire.

At this point, I feel that it is inevitable that the serious crash will arrive in the next few years. Whatever mass neurosis plagues the country will need to be dealt with when that time comes, and now is the time to prepare for it.

Their is nothing more important than being secure in a time of turmoil, yet people are easily swayed by PR Gimmicks and Happy Talk Because they have not been allowed to see the catastrophe waiting in the near future.

[defendandprotect]

153. Look at it this way . . . every day, throw out the most outrageous reaction you hear . . .

and the most passive -- pay attention to what most others are saying to you . . .

Yes... it's nice to have a president who can speak and who gets the Jewish Holocaust --

much better than Reagan visiting the Nazi cemetery!

No one forgets the "8 long criminal years of Bush" -- that's what we're trying to

reverse, correct and have prosecuted so it doesn't happen again.

"ONE ASSHOLE SENATOR IS ON THE TAKE" . . . ??? Wake up!

Hillary got the most money from the "for profit" health care industry and Obama came in second!!!

****************************************************************************************************

My Senator Lautenberg in NJ is totally bought out by Pharm industry.

We should be so lucky that this were all about "one asshole Senator" -- !!!

We have a White House invaded by the poisonous Rahm Emmanuel/DLC-corporate wing of the party --

We have Wall Street crooks like Bernanake, Geithner, Summers in control thanks to Obama.

Yeah -- some of the things Obama has done are good -- many are not.

You're not going to get a pass for the bad because he does something good!!!

[lapfog_1]

201. Granted.

But are you going to sit home and sulk in the next election?

Or are you going to donate, stump, and vote for some of those people you mentioned?

I am. Because the alternative is so much worse.

Just 2.5 short years ago we had ZERO power in Washington. The Dems would try to hold a hearing and the microphones were cut and the lights turned off. The idea of a Speaker Pelosi was laughable. A 60 - 40 split in the Senate was absurd. A President Obama? HA!

So, we worked our asses off, I donated far more than I could afford, volunteered to phone bank, voted... and we got things changed.

And I'm not about to let people here tell me "well, the Dems are just as bad as the Repukes". I'm tired of that shit. If people here, now that the Dems are in power, think that "well, MY issue hasn't been addressed to MY satisfaction yet, so I don't give a shit, everything is shit with corporatist Dems, whine whine whine", then why don't they find some other site to post this crap. We are (as Rachael would say) BIG D Democratic Underground, not little d democratic underground. This is a place for Democrats.

Complain all you want that everything isn't perfect, or even "there are a lot of issues I disagree with the current federal government on", I know I do. But to say that there isn't any difference between now and 6 months ago... that's crap.

[defendandprotect]

213. The question is what are we going to do BEFORE the next election . . .

No . . . I don't see anyone seriously saying they're going to sit home and "sulk" . . .
Nor is anyone going to vote for Repugs . . . stop thinking in extremes.
I think for most of us it's quite clear that "sulking" or voting for Repugs is a step
backwards -- we are all looking to go forward.

We are going to look for other options -- like stopping campaign finance BRIBERY . . .
getting IRV voting -- strengthening third parties.
Right now, both parties know they have no competition.

2.5 short years ago -- '06 -- Pelosi confirmed on video that Democrats were elected to
end the wars!! So let's look at both sides of this. What good does it do us to elect
Democrats and still have two wars, still have capitalism being bailed out, still have
a bankrupted Treasury? And a DLC -- now in the White House -- constantly moving the
Democratic Party to the corporate-right?

I don't think the idea of a Democratic majority was thought to be "absurd."
IMO, many of us recognize that elections have been stolen --
and 2000 and 2004 weren't the beginning of it . . .

The large computers used by MSM began coming in during the mid-1960's...
the MSM used them to report and eventually CALL winners. There were immediate
questions about the machines with odd breakdowns - earlier leads of favored
candidates were gone when reporting resumed, while non-favored candidates were winning.
Familiar story?

The electronic voting machines began coming in during the late-1960's . . .
coinicidentally about the time we passed The Voting Rights Act.

Certainly corporate-media was involved in the CALL of Florida for Bush in 2000 --
We have to understand what that really means re corporate control over stolen elections.
IMO, we can question every election result back to Nixon/Humphrey.

See: Votescam/The Stealing of America
http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

You can still read parts of the book there -- it is probably also available
at your library. Be sure all the pages are intact.


Many Americans still haven't gotten the first idea of how dangerous these
machines have been -- but certainly the Democrats should be highly aware?
Why wouldn't they be?

So, we worked our asses off, I donated far more than I could afford, volunteered to phone bank, voted... and we got things changed.

Many of us have worked for Democrats -- I did for a very long time -- working for
candidates who when you called them the day after the election, they said nothing's
going on til the next election! Watched terrific Democratic candidates not be able
to go anywhere because money controls the party.
Worked phone banks -- worked calls from home -- and contributed thousands of dollars.
The money went to Howard Dean. Very minimal amounts went to Obama. What turned
the tide this time, IMO, was voting early and voting late -- but overwhelming registration
and a bit more populist campaigning which brought out voters who have been staying home.
Not sulking, but understanding that the system is rigged.

And I'm not about to let people here tell me "well, the Dems are just as bad as the Repukes". I'm tired of that shit. If people here, now that the Dems are in power, think that "well, MY issue hasn't been addressed to MY satisfaction yet, so I don't give a shit, everything is shit with corporatist Dems, whine whine whine", then why don't they find some other site to post this crap. We are (as Rachael would say) BIG D Democratic Underground, not little d democratic underground. This is a place for Democrats.

Look . . . we don't really give a s--- either about what you think. This isn't your board.
Liberals and progressives got Obama elected. Without them he would not have won. Nor can
you control outside opinion. Maybe you don't like what Olbermann is saying about Obama?
Or what Jon Stewart is saying. What Thom Hartmann is saying right now? What Randi Rhodes
is saying? You can't control anything but your own mouth. If you want to bring people to
your side and your way of thinking you are going to have to convince them and I don't think
the paragraph above is going to do it.

What WE HAVE ALL BEEN SAYING FOR DECADES is that corporations own both parties --
that has been somewhat less true of the Democrats, but not entirely. We have the
DLC-corporate-wing which is co-opting the party and moving it to the right --
that's their open and clear agenda.
What this amounts to is put this way . . .
The Republicans are the express train to Auschwitz
and the Democrats are the local train to Auschwitz

And, you can be quite sure that what we are fighting here in America is fascism.
Many think that we defeated the Nazis in WWII but there is much evidence to the contrary
as they were shuffled off to many parts of the globe -- but also to America.
The CIA was founded with these Nazis . . . many went into the FBI . . . the USIA . . .
Werner Von Braun headed up NASA!

Complain all you want that everything isn't perfect, or even "there are a lot of issues I disagree with the current federal government on", I know I do. But to say that there isn't any difference between now and 6 months ago... that's crap.

Of course there is a difference -- you are listening to very angry people and reacting with
anger yourself. But the difference is in potential - a new chance to reverse the corruption.
That's what we have to see happening. And we don't have a lot of time.

Good luck to us all --


We are (as Rachael would say) BIG D Democratic Underground, not little d democratic underground. This is a place for Democrats

If we want to hold onto our country we need to think in terms of small "d" democracy.
We have to do what's necessary to protect that -- not a political party.
Granted, this website is dedicated to the Democratic Party, but IMO we have to think
from a higher perspective than protecting a political party and politicians -- we have
to think of protecting our nation and democracy from fascist corporatism.



:)

[Luminous Animal]

6. Did you contact Baucus and your senators and reps?

Because otherwise, you're as dead to them as they are to you.

[defendandprotect]

214. Yes . .. and the WH . . . and recommend "BOUNCE BAUCUS"

He's corrupt and shouldn't be heading up the health care issue --

campaign funding is BRIBERY and we have to "act like it" --

Where is the weak link in all of this? We better find it soon!

[JDPriestly]

16. So far, I haven't seen any positive results from the Obama administration.

We need heath care reform immediately and it needs to have a huge public component. Obama has been slow to take a specific stand on the health care debate. He should have been leading it, and it appears that he is only now chiming it. Obama's ideas are acceptable, but it may be too late to get them into the discussion that is going on in Congress.

Private insurers who think that a society full of unemployed people can keep them in the 6-8 figure salaries are fooling themselves. At some point it is going to come down to fighting to keep hospitals open and doctors equipped and able to work. We are not there yet but just wait.

The private insurers should forget about trying to accumulate wealth and focus on keeping hospitals open and doctors and nurses at their jobs. Because the insurance companies are going to have fewer and fewer paying customers over the next few months as more and more people lose their jobs and run out of money. Frankly, I predict that if the private insurers don't start focusing on meeting patients' needs with less money rather than their on greed, they will be out of business, and a public option, possibly single payer, will be looked upon as the only way to keep any semblance of a health care system going.

The basic problem is that Obama's economic policy is a total failure so far. In my opinion that is because Obama has been unwilling to call Wall Street what it is, selfish to the point of being unpatriotic. Obama has appointed the very individuals who caused the mess to the highest positions in his administration.

His foreign policy sounds great, but getting peace in the Middle East and doing something about the terrorists in Pakistan and Afghanistan will take forever. His trade policy is absolutely awful. It just continues the mistakes of the past. More than anything else, it is this unworkable trade policy that has put Americans out of work.

Obama refuses to prosecute the crimes that occurred during the Bush administration, and by that, I do not just mean the torture and wiretapping. I also mean the fraud that was allowed to take place at all levels of our economy but especially in Iraq.

It's too early to judge Obama's green policy, but I have the impression that it is on the back burner for now.

Obama doomed his administration the day he appointed Geithner. Everything has been out of control since then. He needs to replace Geithner and get an economic team that is not wedded to Wall Street.

Remember, after 1929, the stock market did not really recover until I believe around 1954. Economic success at this time needs to be measured by keeping as many people in jobs and keeping basic services functioning. Anyone who does not recognize how grave the situation is and who wants to pretend it's business as usual and the Dow Jones Industrial actually means something is in for a big surprise. Right now we are on a ship of fools.

[eridani]

43. Private insurers should just plain stop existing

Overall, they add negative value to health care.

[liberation]

81. Oh, noes! You said the N word! ;-)

Watch the red herrings from the Dem die hards start flying...

At least with the GOP, I know what I am getting... and it is never any good. However, with the Dems it seems we're getting some of the same republican crap.. with an added bonus of "mental f*cking." When the Dem senators, representatives, and admin officials looking out for the interests of the people (Kucinich, Feingold, et al) made up just an infinitesimal minority of the Dem political machine... you know it is time for us to start rethinking things.

However, at least with Obama we are getting a small break from the unmitigated disaster that the dynamic McCain/Palin duo would have visited upon us. So I think it is the chance for liberals and progressives to use the relative "stabiilty" we are enjoying right now... to organize a viable political alternative. I am frankly tired of the Dems using the "sky will fall if we elect another GOP peep" as their only electoral value proposal. I don't want to vote AGAINST the GOP anymore, I want to vote FOR someone who is not going to take my vote for granted, is not going to throw my interest under the bus to try to placate the same people who f*cked up the place in the first place. In other words, I am a liberal, and I would like to vote FOR liberal candidates and political programs.

Not a hard concept to grasp... really.

[FiveGoodMen]

82. "I am a liberal, and I would like to vote FOR liberal candidates"

Best words I've heard all week!

:fistbump:

[WilliamPitt]

98. Never heard that one before.

Wait...

[Mithreal]

101. What about the war on Christmas? The Democrats are NOT the same.

The majority of elected Democrats vote with the people. The dead weight are DLC'ers, New Dems, DINOs, blue dogs, and coprophagous Democrats.

Furthermore, Repubs thrive on hypocrisy and lies.

The party is not dead but it is sick.

[AlbertCat]

106. So.... you're a Republican now?

'cause there ain't any other roads to electing official. Sure you can be an un-influential Independent of Libertarian or the like, but until some other party joins the ranks, you have 2 choices. Well 3: Repug, Dem or bowing out altogether.... at this point in time.

[FiveGoodMen]

107. Tired of that extortion

We keep giving into that argument, they keep moving to the right.

Fuck it.

[defendandprotect]

154. We have to create other roads . . . IRV voting . . . ending campaign finance BRIBERY . . .!!!

But we're not going to create anything until we all understand what's really

going on and decide on first steps --

Here's an outrageous first draft --

Let's hire Erin Brockovich to hold liberal/progressive money --

Let's hire lobbyists to work for us to pass IRV voting and

to end campaign finance BRIBERY???

Let's use our money positively -- and stop handing it over to politicians

we have no leverage over!!!

[LSK]

133. Senator Ted Kennedy

You were saying????

[defendandprotect]

141. As long as "Democrats" like Baucus are in charge, the Dem Party is dead ..

We need some "Bounce Baucus" telephone calls, e-mails and buttons!!

This is where Campaign Fund BRIBERY actually takes us to!!

And now the DLC-corporate wing and poisonous Rahm Emmanuel in the WH!!

And, yes, agree Nader has always been right --

He's been warning us of corporatism and buying of government for decades.

And I'm still looking for the Platform he ran on in 2000 - it was his own

platform, not the Green Party Platform which many don't realize. Fantastic!!!

[annabanana]

5. I thought he already dropped the charges.... this seems old-ish. .

nearly by a week..

This stuff moves pretty quick

[EFerrari]

7. That would be good news. The article date is 5/13. n/t

[Cleita]

10. Beth this was the only article I could find to update people who didn't

know about the arrests, but the broadcast was from today. You can catch a podcast on his Portland station. I get it through iTunes.

[EFerrari]

15. Gotcha, Cleita! Thank you. I couldn't find anything either and reread your OP.

:hi:

[Cleita]

8. This was from today's broadcast and Dr. Flower's said he

was thinking about it but it wasn't done yet.

[defendandprotect]

155. We had all best get to WH and Baucus and get the charges dropped-outrageous!!!!

[backscatter712]

50. That's what I heard - Baucus agreed to drop the charges.

And he did at least meet with single-payer advocates even though he's not going to put single-payer on the table.

Baucus got a decent-sized black eye from this :toast:

[Cleita]

70. Update. Now he's saying it's out of his hands.

I feel a shit storm brewing.

[The Hope Mobile]

71. I hope it gets bigger. Of course, he can use his congressional health care for that! nt

[stray cat]

11. You can still protest - you just might not be able to choose that format w/o getting arrested

[Cleita]

14. I don't know. If they do this to doctors and nurses, what are they

going to do to us "hippies".

[anigbrowl]

17. Make you comb out those dreadlocks. Also, a ban on patchouli.

[EFerrari]

20. I don't want to prescribe because I'm not the one taking the risk.

But imho, Baucus is playing chicken. And he's using those charges to deter more actions. The question is, do people allow the corrupt mofo to do that? That would be a question only potential arrestees can answer for themselves, I guess.

[Cleita]

24. For sure he wants them held up as examples to discourage any other

upstarts. After all in the countries we come from dictators killed and tortured a number of dissenters to shut the rest of us up. I hope people push by letters, emails and telephone calls to force him to dismiss the charges from these doctors and nurses. This should be an example to him and other Senators not to do this again.

[defendandprotect]

156. They'll try to push on this because the corporates fear Single Payer and growing clamor for it !!!

[nichomachus]

48. Yes, go directly to the "First Amendment Zone" nearest you and scream as loud as you want

No one can hear you, but don't let that stop you.

Buddy, can you spare some "change?"

[slipslidingaway]

25. This is from yesterday's meeting with Baucus...

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/june/baucus_soothes_singl.php

"Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) told leading advocates of a government-financed health care system that he made a mistake by not giving their proposals more consideration in the reform debate, according to participants in a meeting Wednesday.

He also vowed to use the “power of his office” to make sure charges are dropped against about a dozen people who protested after advocates of a government-backed plan were excluded from recent Finance Committee hearings, the participants said..."


Forget SPHC, that will not happen now, and the focus will be shifted to trying to keep these people out of jail, which we should definitely do.

:(

[EFerrari]

26. He's full of it. The "power of his office" is the only thing keeping those charges in place.

And if we shift focus to those charges, he wins.

[slipslidingaway]

27. We need to do both, but I have to say that at some point a person's

convictions could take a back seat to their personal well being. By that I mean that the topic yesterday was not only to advance SP, but also to try and ask him to not press forward with the charges.

We can do both.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

30. You're right! We need to do both.

:hi:

[slipslidingaway]

33. And we can :)) n/t

[defendandprotect]

157. Yes....we also need to BOUNCE BAUCUS from heading any health care study!!!!

We have a guy who is prime in the taking of money from the "for profit" health

care industry in charge of deciding their fate!!!!

Versus the fate of Single Payer -- !!!!

Guess who's going to win that one!!

[Cleita]

28. Apparently someone used the power of their office to have these

protesters charged with more than a citation. Could it have been him? So what happened? Couldn't he put the toothpaste back in the tube?

[slipslidingaway]

29. I would imagine that he could, doing a quick search not coming

up with any additional info on the charges, but I will call tomorrow...about both issues, thanks for bringing this to our attention.

I remember hearing that she has put her practice on hold for the last two years to advocate for SPHC, she and the others arrested deserve some of our time.

[Cleita]

31. It's amazing how there is practically no information on this

other than that poor doctor pleading to have the charges dropped on a radio show. Surely, there are some journalists out there that can break the story out.

[slipslidingaway]

35. Looked a bit more, supposedly the next court date is 6/22 if

charges are not dropped.

[Raineyb]

78. Would it be considered too cynical if I said I suspect he never had

any intention of dropping the charges?

[Cleita]

91. No, because we know where the charges originated from, him, so

why would he want to?

[Raineyb]

96. Indeed.

I'm sure he's singing the tune of wanting to drop the charges because he's getting a lot of shit from his constituents who aren't too happy with him taking single payer off the table. However, that he laughed about the need for more capitol police to arrest people in the first place says a lot more to me about his true mindset. Max Bauccus (sp?) couldn't tell me a damn thing I wouldn't believe him.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

32. The larger picture is the criminalization of non-violent political protest

that previously would have gotten a "disturbing the peace" or trespassing misdemeanor at the MOST that now begets multiple felonies or even charges as "domestic terrorists" under the Patriot Act as happened to the RNC 8.

Absolutely, totally designed to chill opposition. Baucus should drop these charges. They should have just been escorted out in the first place with no further action warrented. This is America? :cry:

[Cleita]

34. Unfortunately, this is America under the Republicans.

It's twice as disturbing when a Democrat is involved.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

36. I'd say 10x as disturbing. nt

[Mythsaje]

38. It means there's no avenue for hope...n/t

[defendandprotect]

158. Yes -- abuse of protesters is of high concern -- and we should be seeing improvement in

the situation rather than a Democrat like Baucus arresting doctors and nurses!!!

[Hannah Bell]

39. HAVE YOU BEEN TO JAIL FOR JUSTICE

(Anne Feeney)

You law abiding citizens
Come listen to this song
Laws are made by people
And people can be wrong
Once unions were against the law
But slavery was fine
Women were denied the vote
While children worked the mine
The more you study history
The less you can deny it
A rotten law stays on the books
‘til folks with guts defy it!

Have you been to jail for justice?
I want to shake your hand
‘Cause sitting in and laying down
Are ways to take a stand
Have you sung a song for freedom
Or marched that picket line?
Have you been to jail for justice?
Then you’re a friend of mine

Well the law is supposed to serve us
And so are the police
When the system fails
It’s up to us to speak our piece
We must be ever vigilant
For justice to prevail
So get courage from your convictions
Let ‘em haul you off to jail!

[maryf]

103. Sing it sister, nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. Disobedience doesn't require permission.

Our government operates the way it does because it is not afraid of the people.

[conspirator]

80. Well stated nt

[Downwinder]

83. I disagree.

Our government operates the way it does because it "is" afraid of the people.
They want to keep us slaves. They are afraid we will get uppity.

[blindpig]

45. We don't ask permission.

To hell with the hat in hand approach, it only earns derision.

Time to put the fear in them, time to take it to the streets.

Roll over on this and Social Security will be next.

[femrap]

46. We should demand he change

parties since that is how he is behaving.

[lonestarnot]

47. Tienanmen Square people weren't allowed to protest either!

:evilgrin:

[dana_b]

168. true...

and thousands of them were murdered. Not saying that we shouldn't protest, but I sincerely hope our govt. wouldn't do something like Tianneman Square.

[bluesmail]

49. I heard recently that he was dropping the charges. eom

[Cleita]

54. Do you have a link?

I can't find one later than yesterday morning when Dr. Flowers claimed the charges hadn't been dropped yet.

[supernova]

57. Link in Health Forum

Inside the Singel-Payer Meeting and Please Fax Max

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=61068&mesg_id=61068

[Cleita]

60. There's a link on that post to Daily Kos for May 13th concerning that.

There is nothing indicating that the charges had been dropped since yesterday. I can't see why Dr. Flowers would have claimed yesterday that they weren't dropped if they were.

[supernova]

63. MB told them he would support dropping charges

Post from Wednesday:

Inside the Baucus Single-Payer Meeting--What Was Said, What's Next
by National Nurses Movement


Wed Jun 03, 2009 at 02:26:08 PM PDT


For the first time, Baucus, who has been deluged with protests inside his Senate Finance Committee which has been in the forefront of drafting legislation and in town hall meetings at home in Montana, was apologetic. "I made a mistake," he said, "I should have left it (single payer) on the table, front and center with everything else."

Baucus talked about his own positive experiences in Canada where he inspected the Canadian healthcare system first hand, "I was very impressed," during the healthcare debate in the early 1990s, noting the contrast between a Montana hospital which has an "entire floor" of people devoted to billing, and other administrative paper work, and a nearby Canadian hospital which does it all "in one room."

He agreed to use the power of his office to have charges dropped against the Baucus 13, nurses, doctors, and activists arrested for raising their voices in the committee hearings.

IOW, it has not happened yet, but he agreed to it.

www.dailykos.com/story/2009/6/3/738531/-Inside-the-Baucus-Single-Payer-MeetingWhat-Was-Said,-Whats-Next

[Cleita]

65. Well, let's hope continuing phone calls and faxes make him move that

agenda to the top of his pile.

[pleah]

51. K&R

[The Traveler]

52. It is time to organize

We need to find a candidate to run against "that one". (snark intended) Baucus is not our friend, and is not representing our interests or values. So let's get someone engaged against him, raise funds, and run this tool our of Washington.

And above all, make sure he knows about the grass roots effort I propose ... we want him and others to see it coming.

Trav

[Cleita]

55. Yep, we need a million person march on Washington, health care providers and

patients, which means all of us. I don't know who can organize and lead it though. If someone does, maybe in the fall when Congress reconvenes, I'll be there.

[supernova]

58. It's a right that we need; all rights require civil disobedience

They won't give it to us (even though by any ethical measure, they should do it -- it's their f*cking job!)

WE HAVE TO TAKE IT!

[blindpig]

59. More than that

We've seen how much good a one day protestapalooza did for the war. General strike, many cities, something that hits their pocketbook, that will get their attention.

[Cleita]

61. This time we are going to have to refuse to be herded into free speech zones.

Sit ins such as the doctors attempted and disrupting business is what is required. There will be arrests and beatings, because that's all they know how to do. We need to disrupt business in the headquarters of insurers as well disrupting their business, until they get the idea that they should get out of the business to pave the way for single payer. Senator Bernie Sanders is actually calling for it. He says this issue is no different than women's suffrage or the civil rights movement. There is going to have to be some blood spilled. Although he didn't say that, he implicated it.

[supernova]

64. THis is going to have to happen all over the country

and on the Capitol Steps

[Cleita]

66. Capital steps are very important because it's necessary to burst that

little bubble that Washington lives in enabling them to ignore the rest of the country.

[defendandprotect]

162. Protesting is important and there are . . .

many other ways it can be done.

Turning off lights every night for an hour -- at an agreed upon time.

No buying certain products -- as agreed upon.

Only buying locally -- staying away from large corporate stores.

Stopping your car and pull it to the side at an agreed upon time for 10/15 minutes.

Wearing buttons -- "Bounce Baucus" would be a place to start.

[blindpig]

68. As long as we are obedient, hat in hand, they despise us.

A bit of fear will wipe the smirks off of their faces.

It will take sacrifice, something which we've not done for a while. They're counting on that, they thing we're 'in the bag', time to show them whose boss.

[maryf]

104. General Strike is it...nt

[defendandprotect]

161. We have almost nothing of unions left . . . but women are the majority of the work force -- !!!

If we go on strike there is nothing . . .

no children, no childcare, no clean homes, no dinners, no lunches, no breakfasts,

no shopping, no cooking, no errands, no fresh towels in the bathroom --

NO LOVE

[defendandprotect]

163. Agree . . .

but even more so we need new songs, new creative ideas . . .

Someone once said that when the music stops the movement dies.

Anyway, here's an outrageous plan --

Let's hire Erin Brockovich to hold liberal/progressive money -- presume she's a Dem?

Well, someone like her -- let's say Robert Redford???

OK -- and then we can hire lobbyists to END campaign fund BRIBERY ....

and from there on to IRV voting . . .

once we have those two things we have some leverage --

but I would never turn a dime over to any politician you have no leverage over!!!

[blindpig]

170. The music will come,

the times will make it.

As for your plan, ferget it. Robert Redford is dead.

Leverage is stopping profit making.

[defendandprotect]

171. Whaat .. . ???

Robert Redford is dead... ???

I'm for cutting corporations out of our lives to the extent we can --

but our problems are with politicians/Congress/government already bought!!!

And, each election brings a new bidding season --

We have to end campaign fund BRIBERY ...

without that, elected officials will always be working for corporations.

[blindpig]

204. Oops.

Sorry Bob.

Why not cut them out entirely? We can do what we need to do without them.

As long as there is a power base capable of bribing they will be bribed.

Taking the ability to bribe out of the equation is the sure way to prevent it.

[Ken Burch]

180. Uh, no. Paul Newman is dead. Redford's still around.

With a bad facelift, but still around.

[defendandprotect]

185. OK . . . so you distrust Robert Redford?

Thanks . . . you had me worried -- !!!

[blindpig]

202. My bad

Shows how much attention I pay to such things. Despite my misplaced snark I think depending on 'personalities' is a dead end. Some might be good folks but a substantial movement must be built from the bottom up, and that includes the leadership.

[WilliamPitt]

100. "It is time to organize"

When is it not?

Seriously.

[defendandprotect]

160. Baucus is in positon NOW to do great harm . . . BOUNCE BAUCUS would be more the idea-- !!!

Granted, eventually, we need to get rid of the Repug-lite Dems like Harry Reid!

And the many other Blue Dogs and DINO's and especially the poisonous DLC . . .

but right now the DLC is in the WH and Wall Street is in charge of economic policy --

Bernanake is dictating what's going to happen with SS and Medicare --

and Baucus is driving the get away car!!!

[Eyerish]

67. K&R

[Cleita]

69. Small update.

In the last fifteen minutes of Thom Hartmann's radio show a woman called in and said that Senator Baucus's office is now telling people that dropping charges on the doctors and nurses is out of his hands. So the charges haven't been dropped yet. Thom said he believes that Senator Baucus can if he wants to. He said he's going to make some phone calls about the matter and find out for sure if Senator Baucus can or can't and he will report on his show on Monday.

Stay tuned!

[slipslidingaway]

75. I was told the same thing when I called his office, that Senator

Baucus did not file any charges. When I asked if he was using the "power of his office" to have any charges dropped, she said that it was being handled by the Finance Committee. I then called the Finance Committee and the person just about laughed when I relayed the message that the Finance Committee is handling anything related to the charges, he said that I needed to call the Capitol police which I have not done.

It does not sound like the senators are doing anything to try and have the charges dropped.

[Cleita]

I'm sure Thom will get to the bottom of it. He probably will

get Senator Bernie Sanders on it since they are good friends.

[slipslidingaway]

86. Maybe, but we still need to make our voices heard :)) n/t

[Cleita]

89. Oh, I agree. This offense to citizen's rights to be heard isn't going away soon. n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

76. Perhaps Congressional hearings are not the place to throw a temper tantrum

Business is being conducted there. How would these doctors like it if people went into their offices and began yelling while they were trying to see patients? There are plenty of places they could have held their protests which would have been less disruptive.

[Cleita]

77. Are you for real? n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

79. Very much so

[liberation]

84. You are correct, we shouldn't anger the massa... the massas are good and they know what is best

.

If people like you would have prevailed, we would have never had civil rights legislation passed, we would not have had the nineteen amendment passed, heck... we would still be part of the British empire.

Yeah, let's not rock the boat. Let's not inconvenience the people, who we are paying a pretty damn good salary to do their job of representing the people btw, and who are not just completely ignoring our interests... but actually proactively subsuming said interests in favor of the same corporate satus quo.

Glad to see people like you labeling the actions of people trying to defend our interests as "temper tantrums." I guess the blue dog in your tag line makes perfect sense now.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

121. Wow, so many ad hominem attacks in one post.

You walk into my house, it's trespassing because it's private property. Any government building and business being conducted is the people's public property and business and belongs to all of us. We should be able to walk in and complain if we are being ignored by law. However, our present politicians seem not to think so. Putting protesters who are doctors and nurses in jail because some corrupt, bought and paid for by the corrupt corporate health care system and charging them with felonies is hardly freedom of dissent, which we are supposed to have.

[LoZoccolo]

122. Bullshit, your whole argument relies on bullshit and this is a shit-stirring thread. n/t

[Cleita]

125. So when the government decides to declare eminent domain and build

a freeway through your property, I guess you don't feel you should disrupt the county supervisors meeting that is being held that you aren't allowed to attend.

:rofl:

[LoZoccolo]

126. I wouldn't do it to begin with.

The only purpose would be to get myself arrested so I can tell a sob story. That was the purpose of this disruption.

If FReepers came and disrupted an Obama press conference, I'd want them locked up.

[Cleita]

127. Obama wouldn't lock them up because he is a constitutional lawyer

and knows they have the right to be heard. Bush on the other hand wouldn't let anyone except his choir attend his townhall meetings. He also had Cindy Sheehan arrested at a SOTU because he didn't like her T shirt. Democrats who act like Bush Republicans need to be stopped.

[LoZoccolo]

129. Of course they have the right to be heard.

Your constant conflation of "being heard"/"protesting" with "disrupting any way you feel like" is part of the overall pattern of manipulative and mendacious behavior that typifies single-payer advocates. The idea can't sell itself, so people do this to push it. In the past few days we've seen:

1. The claim that the majority of Americans want single payer, not one poll to substantiate that (but a few passed off as if they did).
2. A fabricated Hillary Clinton quote that's supposed to prove that the only alternative to single-payer is mandated private coverage.
3. Now this.

I still don't have any reason to support single-payer, and the advocates are pushing me farther and farther away from it by demonstrating that the only thing that's gonna sell it is trying to trick people into it. No thanks. I'm more against it now than I was last week.

[defendandprotect]

178. And what was the "Boston Tea Party" . . . in your mind?

"disrupting any way they felt like" . . . ??

Was the rebellion against corporate power at that time "an overall pattern of
manipulative and mendacious behavior" . . . ???

How about the Vietnam-anti-war demonstrations . . . !!!
I can imagine what you think of them!

Single Payer -- MEDICARE FOR ALL -- is what the country wants . . . in any poll.

This is simply DLC-corporate-talk trying to bury Single Payer --

And if the American public is paying attention by any chance they will fight for
MEDICARE FOR ALL and end "for profit" health care and move to a system of preventive
health care.

"For profit" health care is also bankrupting the nation and keeping Americans disease
ridden!

[LoZoccolo]

187. What poll? n/t

[defendandprotect]

190. The polls you don't want to acknowledge . . .!!!

DLC by any chance . . .?

[LoZoccolo]

199. I feel so out of the loop with these polls I haven't seen.

If you really wanted to "get me", you could post a link to the poll right here and when I don't come back, you could prove I wouldn't acknowledge it!

There, I just gave you a move to destroy me with.

Believe me, I really doubt that the DLC wastes its time here.

[defendandprotect]

211. For one source ....

You can try Noam Chomsky --
he regularly speaks about this --- there are polls and then there are polls . . .

but also when there are a few honest questions on public polls -- which is rare --
there are honest answers. When asked about Mexicans invading our borders,
Americans will point out that they formerly lived in these lands.
New Mexico, parts of Colorado, California -- etc.

And, further, as he points out, if this weren't a liberal nation, why would
there be such a obsession by the right wing to to control the media? Newspapers?
Publications. Publishing houses? I agree with him.

The heightened right-wing propaganda we've seen over the decades also points to
a need to fool the public. Remember Bush, "catapulting the propaganda."

[defendandprotect]

212. The DLC doesn't "waste" its time here . . .

I think it has a rather welcomed home here.

Meanwhile, it is not the DLC/DU which worries me -- it is the DLC/Rahm Emmanuel

in the White House which is a concern.

[LoZoccolo]

131. And it's funny that you have all this talk about free speech and then ALERT THE MODS.

:cry: :rofl:

[Cleita]

134. DU is a private message board, not public.

The mods have the discretion to remove offensive posts. You are in the administrators' living room, not on a street corner.

[LoZoccolo]

200. And yet it's still hypocritical (and thus funny - "laugh at" funny). n/t

[leftstreet]

90. LOL "Congressional hearings" & "business is being conducted there"

Well, ya got that right I guess.

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

92. I think we should disrupt the buying of our Congress by lobbyists at every opportunity.

[defendandprotect]

181. Yes . . . any ideas on how to do it . . . !!!

[blindpig]

95. Exactly

Insurance business. Big Pharma business.

How dare they let the will of the people disturb such weighty matters.

[defendandprotect]

164. Give me a break . . . they were minimally "disruptive" . . .

not like they dragged in people with amputations and sick people not being treated!!

Or pictures of people dead now because they didn't get care in time!!!

Besides, this is the "PEOPLE'S" BUSINESS they are doing -- !!!

Do you see them as some executive CEO's with no connection to the public???

[Raineyb]

166. Business indeed

Apparently the business of screwing over the people should not be interrupted by people actually telling the bought and paid for politicians what it is they actually want.

It is so called dems like you that keep us from actually making any progress.

I'm fucking tired of these god damned "blue dogs" We should call them what they are. Republicans.

[Ken Burch]

179. The demonstrators are yelling so that people will be ABLE to see a doctor

The insurance industry has never wanted the people to have healthcare as a right, but as a rationed privelege saved mainly for the few. That's what all the big money people in those hearings were there for. Why SHOULDN'T a sham like that be disrupted?

No one in the centers of corporate power is on our side. Even yours, Freddie. The ceo is not your friend.

[SIMPLYB1980]

85. Oh No Democracy is Dead.

That's the proper response isn't it? Maybe they should not protest where they know it is illegal.

[Cleita]

93. There is no illegal place to protest regardless of how many laws the

dictatorships in charge like to make about it. The right to dissent is in the Constitution and there is no certain places that it's not allowed.

[SIMPLYB1980]

99. Dictatorship.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[defendandprotect]

165. Absolute true, however, they have criminalized protesting over the decades . . .

first by presenting it -- and strikes -- to the public as a THREAT to them!!!

Remember the controllers stike during the Reagan admin?

That was presented to the public as huge inconvenience by a union snubbing public!

Actually, it was a strike to protect the public!!!

Same with with Long Island RR workers some long time back -- presented as severe

inconvenience to commuters!!!

Also, while the anti-war protests scared the hell out of Nixon -- just as IMO every

American was about to join the protests, Nixon let looks with Kent State -- scaring

the hell out of parents of protesters. And later they portrayed these anti-war

protesters as a threat to democracy!!!

Am I wrong?

We -- liberals and progressives -- need to hire someone like Erin Brockovich . . .

if she's a Dem . . . to hold our money and hire lobbyists to work on Congress and

get END CAMPAIGN FUND BRIBERY . . . from there we would get IRV voting -- and some

leaverage over these corporate shills!!!

Or some other outrageous idea like that -- try one of your own!!!



:)

[TheWatcher]

87. What Does it take to get the sleeping Public to Wake Up to the fact that THEY DON'T CARE?

We can complain all we WANT. We can write as many letters as we WANT.

We can make as many Phone Calls as we WANT.

THEY IGNORE US AND DO WHAT THEY PLEASE.

It has become CLEARLY Apparent that this so-called "Government" is nothing more than a "Good Cop" "Bad Cop" Mafia veiled in the facade of a false left-right paradigm that gives forth the ILLUSION of difference, but in the end, all they do is play us all AGAINST each other while laughing all they way to the bank of whatever agenda they are advancing.

Token actions aside, there isn't going to be any "change" from EITHER party.

The only thing that can be said for the other side is that AT LEAST they are BLATANTLY OVERT about their criminal, fascist intent. They leave no doubt as to the criminal scum they are.

Our side has become the "Harbinger Of Hope", smiling, giggling, and hugging you, telling how much they love you, and then sticking a knife in your back.

And all we do is say "deeper, please."

The only shining light we have is Kucinich.

To hell with the rest of them.

I know it's pointless to express this kind of sentiment in GD because this is the "Fall In Line And Follow Zone", but what does it take to get people to see one simple thing:

WE. DO. NOT. HAVE. REPRESENTATIVE. GOVERNMENT.

:grr:

[Cleita]

94. I don't disagree with you but if our founding fathers

had felt that way we would all still be British. It's time to demand our democracy back and if they ignore us then we have to begin a revolution against them and that comes from protest movements like the civil rights movement.

[TheWatcher]

97. You may misunderstand me. The Founding Fathers Felt EXACTLY as I do.

In fact, they were quite specific about it:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Of course, THIS kind of talk and sentiment, were it expressed openly today might be viewed as TERRORISM.
:crazy:

How Far We have Fallen As A nation.

[defendandprotect]

183. Love that you put that up for everyone to see and think about . . .

We used to have a lot of Democrats who spoke with that passion --
but I think they killed them all -- and they seem to have been knocking
off anyone who even looks like they're thinking of trying to rise to leadership!

Needless to say, no citizen wants the chaos, disruption of rebellion to fall upon them...

"and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed
to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing
the forms to which they are accustomed."

Not everyone is suffering equally, of course, which is to the advantage of the
elites who inflict this harm, but anyone with empathy and concern for their own children, for
the planet and nature can see what's coming. Patriarchy/capitalism are suicidal in their
desire for control over others.

Indeed, I'm hearing that police are being told that when asking for permission to search cars
at a traffic violation stop, they should look with suspicion on any one who mentions their
Constitutional rights!!

We are being offered corporate shills as candidates -- but there are many honest people among
us and barring corporations from any participation in our elections would help them move
forward.

:)

[Greyhound]

193. It was.

Perhaps as things continue to disintegrate over the next few months, enough people will wake up to the fact that we have and effective dictatorship. Corporations, profits, and the parasites they represent dictate each and every aspect of "our government".
:thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

167. Okay . . . let's start with Kucinich and Elizabeth . . . and funnel

progressive/liberal money to them to be held --

let them hire, let's say, Erin Brockovich to represent us with Congress --

telling them clearly what we want --

Then let her hire a bunch of lobbyists for us to work on them to

END campaign fund BRIBERY .... bar corporations from any participation whatsoever in elections.

from there, we will need them to pass IRV voting and take their feet off

the necks of third parties.

We have to end this Merry-go-round of corporate control and put corporations

back in the box!

How about Robert Redford?

OK that's my outrageous idea -- now how about one of yours?

[Liberty Belle]

88. As editor of a publication with 2 million hits in 8 months, I just left a mesasge.

I know that the 2 million people who have visited my news site, include many who have been mobilizing for healthcare reform in our region where so many have no insurance, will be dismayed to hear that no single-payer advocates have been allowed to speak by Senator Baucus and that some have been arrested.

Why is Senator Baucus refusing to allow the millions of Americans who support single payer to have a voice at his committee hearing?

[Cleita]

102. Thanks. This has to be newsworthy and I'm amazed that no MSM has

picked up on this story. I mean practically nada. It's so at the core of the violation of our rights under the Constitution that it should be widely circulated yet there are crickets. Maybe the real story is about how our Constitution is no longer the law of the land. I dunno. :shrug:

[maryf]

105. MSM makes tons of advertising bucks

From Insurance Corps and Big Pharma, boycott the shows that advertise these things??? Maybe a few shows would start listening, turn off the tube with every ad...call the stations...

[defendandprotect]

186. MSM also gets 80% of the campaign funds . . . again corporate bucks!!!

[defendandprotect]

169. Because his "for profit" health care contributors would lose money . .

we have to end campaign finance fund BRIBERY . . .

and keep calling it what it is --

We have to bar corporations from any participation whatsoever in our elections!

This is a government of the "people" not corporations!!!

[valerief]

108. THIS SUCKS!

:grr:

[GreenTea]

110. "Insurance companies cancel coverage immediately when an employee suffers a disabling illness;"

"Only single-payer national health insurance can make universal, comprehensive coverage affordable by saving the hundreds of billions we now waste on insurance overhead and bureaucracy."

"Using a conservative definition, 62.1 percent of all bankruptcies in 2007 were medical; 92 percent of these medical debtors had medical debts over $5,000, or 10 percent of pretax family income," the researchers wrote.

"Most medical debtors were well-educated, owned homes and had middle-class occupations."

The researchers, whose work was paid for by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, said the share of bankruptcies that could be blamed on medical problems rose by 50 percent from 2001 to 2007.

"Unless you're Warren Buffett, your family is just one serious illness away from bankruptcy," Harvard's Dr. David Himmelstein, an advocate for a single-payer health insurance program for the United States, said in a statement.

"For middle-class Americans, health insurance offers little protection," he added.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idU ...

"Nationally, a quarter of insurance companies cancel coverage immediately when an employee suffers a disabling illness; another quarter do so within a year," the report reads.

[Deep13]

113. What's the House doing on this? nt

[Cleita]

115. Nothing from what I can see. This occurred in the Senate though and

I don't see Harry Reid doing anything about it either. If something is happening, no one is reporting it.

[Cleita]

117. Correction. babylonsister just put this up:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5791852

[Deep13]

120. Thanks. nt

[texastoast]

114. Oh, yes, you will

http://finance.senate.gov/healthreform2009/home.html

'Cause old Max says his "door is open." It is up to us to hold the DINO hypocrite accountable.

It is the duty of the next President and the next Congress to reform America’s health care system. In 2009, Congress must take up and act on meaningful health reform legislation that achieves universal coverage while also addressing the underlying problems in our health system. The urgency of this task has become undeniable.

. . .

Americans who care deeply about the future of our health system and our economy must all take up the fight together for comprehensive health care reform. My door will be open throughout the debate, and I will seek partners with “can do” spirits and open minds. I believe — very strongly — that every American has a right to high-quality health care through affordable, portable, meaningful health coverage. And I believe that Americans cannot wait any longer.

[MasonJar]

124. I just called a left him a scathing message. His mailbox is not full so

get on the phone. I called at 6:20 on Friday. Since his mailbox is not full, that means not enough people are calling to complain; pleaswe do so NOW.

[MasonJar]

144. I just came back and noticed all the typos in my post. I apologize.

It was too late to edit it.

[Cleita]

149. Your post was important.

The typos were not. Not all of us are here to edit your posts, least of all me, who has some challenges in that area. :-)

[Wednesdays]

128. K&R

:kick:

[quidam56]

135. WE are the change WE voted for, speak up.

Health Care reform must happen this year. http://www.wisecountyissues.com How many more will die for our health care lie ???

[and-justice-for-all]

136. you cant get anything done by listening to these fucks..

"...corporate insurance and health care industry representatives." What the fuck?!!

Baucus is not serious about UHC, he is just trying to give us a show. If he was interesed, then single payer advocates would he present too.

[Cleita]

138. He needs to be removed from that committee, the Finance Committee, IMHO

or at least for this debate, because he is obviously biased. I doubt if it will happen. Bernie Sanders said today that Health and Human Services was also hearing this issue although they are behind because of Ted Kennedy's illness.

[Thothmes]

137. "They" are the ones we elected to the Congress.

[Cleita]

139. Only the people of Montana elected Baucus. They are having buyer's

regret to their credit.

[Thothmes]

140. He is only one, who is responsible for the rest of them.

[Cleita]

142. He's the one that counts, the Chairman of the Committee. He sets the

agenda and the rules.

[Thothmes]

146. The party has the prerogative of stripping him of that

chairmanship,if the so choose. Again "we" elected them.

[defendandprotect]

188. Obama has to give leadership to Single Payer/MEDICARE FOR ALL ....

being at the table --

it's what makes sense for Americans, for pricing -- and for jobs --

You can bet not only the "for profit" health care structure is frightened,

but behind them the drug companies which have been charging us $10 a tablet

which Canadians pay .05 cents for!!!

[Cleita]

159. I'm venturing out in the real world tomorrow. I usually try to get

reason out in the internet or sometimes on the job, but all my patients actually agree with me even the Libertarians. Most of the time though, socially, I am a recluse. Tomorrow I have signed up to go to one of those meetings that Obama's health people will be hosting. The limit is 25 people so I might get a word in edgewise and President Obama is supposed to speak to us sometime during the meeting. I hope I can, not only speak about single payer or at least a single payer type plan for a public option, but I hope to put a word in too for these doctors and nurses. Wish me luck and I will report back on a new post tomorrow or Sunday.

[omega minimo]

174. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

Thank you Cleita. Powerful. :toast:

[defendandprotect]

189. Error . . . late K&R nonetheless!!

[HEyHEY]

194. You guys won't get social medicine until you have hundreds of thousands of people rioting.

I'm convinced that is what it will take.

[Cleita]

195. Apparently it is. I wonder if our milquetoasts are up to it.

I have a feeling our returning vets are. Keeping fingers crossed.

[HEyHEY]

197. That'd be nice. That really is what it is going to take.

torch a couple busses right in front of the white house and such. Barring the actual riot, there needs to be serious mass sit ins, blockades, boycotts, all that.

[maryf]

203. General Strike might be more effective...

hurt them in the pocket book...

[Cleita]

205. I would like that too except that it takes massive union effort to do that

and only a third of our work force is unionized. I don't know how many workers would be willing to lose their jobs in these times when unemployment is at a high.

[blindpig]

206. I suspect there is room for some new unions,

and some new kind of unions. And other voluntary associations, like the immigrants movement.

Times a wastin'.

[maryf]

207. Sadly its only 13% of the workforce at best...nt besides...

A one day General Strike could be devastating! and it could be just on purchasing, and not work...

[Reterr]

196. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours.eom