Do you know any zealot kooks like Scott Roeder the Dr. shooter? I do.

[Philosoraptor]

51 year old Scott Roeder is the man accused of murdering Dr. Tiller in Wichita yesterday, he lives right down the road from me apparently, and in this area, there are literally thousands of Scott Roeders. I have people like him in my own family, my own brother in fact, who recently purchased a handgun for the first time in his life.

My brother is a Christian zealot, has been for going on 40 years. He lives in Kansas, and I know that the midwest is infested with little kooky church groups who meet and talk about killing and bombing anyone in the women's health sector.

The cops and FBI have been wise to this asshole for years, they've been watching him and his buddies on the fringe for many years, he's been right under their radar for at least a decade, yet, he did what he's been threatening to do for years, and no one was able to stop him.

Do you know any of these types personally? What are your observations? What do you think makes them tick? What if anything can be done to stop these men and women who take up arms and bombs to make their points?

I personally think that many times these fringe groups are allowed to exist and fester simply because on the surface they look like good church going people, sharing the same, basic religious beliefs as your own, though not as extreme.

I also think that these suspect churches and internet groups who espouse assassinations and bombings in the name of the prince of peace should be EXPOSED, ISOLATED, AND SHUT DOWN. Freedom of religion does not include conspiring to assassinate people, and those who go around talking about that and posting on the internet about that should be arrested as terrorists.

This tragedy hits home to me, cause I KNOW people like Scott Roeder, I have them in my own family. I know how they think, cause I've heard my own brother using the same terminologies and phrases used by Roeder and his ilk. You CAN NOT reason with these people, they are zealot terrorists, and they will not be swayed, they can only be stopped before it's too late.

[WVRICK13]

1. Well Said

They are a domestic threat and should be treated accordingly.

[AllentownJake]

2. I can't speak to what makes them tick

but I have a theory of what makes them finally go out and do what this man did.

These people are nobodies. They never really had many successes in life. Most of them are divorced or were never married. They may or may not have Children. If they have Children, generally they were given limited custody and they have alienated their kids in some way with their fundamentalist beliefs.

They have had limited success in their careers. They have had limited success in their communities. They had limited success in their personal relationships.

At a certain point, these people want to be someone. Having had limited success in being someone in the traditional way, they do something like this person just did.

The reason they do it is simple. This fellow, is now a hero to a certain segment of our society. He is a Martyr to their cause. He went from nobody to somebody overnight. There will be more of them.

[jazzjunkysue]

20. Not unlike the school shooters: Isolated socially and feeling this will make them somebody.

TV has ruined alot of us: We feel we don't really count until we see our faces on TV. This is just the logical extension of the"reality" shows. Shows where people are willing to be publicly humiliated just to get on TV, and be counted.

[Mythsaje]

35. Everyone wants their fifteen minutes... n/t

[old mark]

3. P: they are well beyond all logic and reason, they rely on BELIEF,

and there is no arguing with them or converting them. I hope someone in authority makes the connection between these groups and terrorists - I think the"religious" and white supremacist groups will be more active over the summer.

mark

[lapfog_1]

4. What the hell happened to my home state.

It didn't use to be that way. I was born in Wichita, grew up in Overland Park, attended middle school and high school while living in Shawnee, went to the Univ. of Kansas, like my sister, my brother, all my friends from high school (Ok, one guy went to MIT, another to RIT... but all the rest went to good ole KU). I married a girl at KU who's dad grew up 15 miles from my home in Shawnee (and he had attended KU). Got divorced and almost married ANOTHER girl, this one from Wichita.

All of my relatives that don't live near me in Arizona now, are still in Kansas.

Middle of the road. Didn't get involved in religion or politics much. Sure, Bob Dole was our senator, and a republican, but then so was Dwight Eisenhower, who was born in Texas, but raised in Abilene, KS.

Live and let live people.

The only "kooks" were those door to door "watchtower" Jehovah Witness types, but nobody paid them that much attention. Besides, they were harmless.

WTF is up with Kansas now?

I've been "gone" for 25 years now... and it seems to have turned into some sort of midwest KKKlan hideout. The population seems to be much more ignorant than when I lived there, and much more willing to "thump bibles" and tell everyone else how to live. How did this happen?

Am *I* to blame? If I had stayed there, and many thousands of others like me, would Kansas still be the same old Kansas?

Sigh.

[AllentownJake]

5. My guess is Agri-Business

[eShirl]

6. nothing last forever but the earth and sky

all we are is dust in the wind

[lapfog_1]

7. And you can't go home...

yeah, got that.

But a little part of me says that IF I had stayed, and thousands of other college graduates stayed, instead of moving to one of the coasts to be with other bright people (and to work at jobs for bright people), had we all stayed, would Kansas be different now, not so full of Christo-fundies and the Xian Taliban?

But all the ones I knew who were at KU with me, the vast majority ended up in California or east coast or other places. But not in Kansas (there weren't jobs for people with engineering degrees in Kansas, or computer science, or many other disciplines).

I'm not trying to be egotistical, but reality is that most people that had IQs over 120, left the state. And it was probably happening before I left, and has probably continued at an even faster pace SINCE I left. I know if I was there now, I would want to "get out of Dodge" (ok, that joke is corny) as quickly as possible.

And I'm wondering if that phenomenon (bright people leaving states that had sizable and vocal minority of wingnuts, causes MORE bright people to leave as well). Or is it purely economics. I know that when I left and ended up in Silicon Valley, that it would always be my "home" in the same way Kansas would always be the place I was "from". The cultural diversity, more sophisticated, but laid back lifestyle, the number of other people like myself (educated, smart, mostly liberal, science oriented, artistically minded) that I could interact with was just light years beyond Lenexa, KS. Or even Lawrence.

[surrealAmerican]

15. You (and others like you) couldn't have stayed.

There were no jobs for the well educated. If you had stayed you would have wound up severely under-employed, which, long term, can also lead people to become "easy prey" for religious extremists. It's not the supposed "low IQ" (which I doubt is true) of the people who stayed that caused this, it's their hopelessness.

[jazzjunkysue]

22. George Bush, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney: They enshrined right wing hatred.

They and the swine who sell right wing hate on TV and radio.

That's what happened to your home state. It was taken over by monsters. They're willing to sell hate to drive a few more voters to the polls.

It's all about power and control and money.

[stray cat]

8. They are not like Roeder - they haven't killed anyone

The people who are that anti-abortion really believe a life is being taken with each abortion - that a child is being murdered - by and large that is what makes them tick I suspect.

[JHB]

9. Genuine belief is a part of it...

...but that can also act as a cover/justification for other impulses. For example, I know some people who claim to be "pro-life", but what really drives them to a frothing anger is people "getting away with" unauthorized ("illicit", to use their term) sex.


I agree, though, that they shouldn't arbitrarily be grouped with Roeder, any more than a troubled teen should be arbitrarily considered a potential school-shooter. There are finer distinctions than that, and ignoring those actually aids the problem cases, since it makes them easier to paint themselves as martyrs. (what you need to do is break the actually dangerous people away from their support system (in other words, the proper way to neutralize any terroristic zealot).

[Stevenmarc]

10. "they haven't killed anyone" ............ Yet.

[cdsilv]

11. I know many anti-abortion believers....

and many do believe that a child is being murdered. However, the enlightened ones think that they
way to keep unwanted pregnancies from occurring is to hold the fathers as responsible as the mothers.

In all ways. IF a woman decides to carry the baby to term, then the father is responsible for supporting the
kid as well - it is his too, after all. If we men had to face that risk, I doubt that there would be as many
'unplanned' pregnancies due to our resistance to birth control...

My OPINION is that it is a child, not a choice. But it is not my child or my choice, and I do not have the
right to force my OPINION on anyone else's decision process.

Safe, early & rare....FWIW

[Stevenmarc]

21. So what,

that doesn't really address the issue of zealotry in the anti abortion community. While many people who profess to be against abortion wouldn't even go so far as attending a demonstration let alone pick up a gun, there are a core group of zelots who given the perfect storm of hopelessness and a lack of control will have no problem crossing the line as Scott Roeder did.

That's the issue that needs to be addressed.

[Bucky]

13. Well then, two days ago Roeder was not like Roeder for the same reason. He still killed someone.

People don't just wake up and start killing doctors. They have to be conditioned--and a lot of people are in mid process.

[Cleita]

12. If we got universal health care passed and include mental health care in it,

maybe we might diffuse a lot of these human ticking bombs before they murder innocent people.

[surrealAmerican]

16. Even though I too would like to see universal health insurance ...

... that covers mental health care, it won't make a difference for people like this. These are people who don't see themselves as having a mental health problem, and will not be seeking care.

[Cleita]

24. Yes, but others would see it and access would make it easier for family

members and friends to put pressure on. I'm not so naive to think it would save everyone, but I believe it would get people into therapy sooner like in childhood or adolescence if it were available. I was watching a history channel program yesterday about Hitler and Stalin. Both dictators drastically changed the world. However, their problems started in childhood. Imagine if they had been put into therapy or more importantly their abusive fathers put into therapy before they grew into the monsters they became, how differently our world history would be. For one thing identifying those who aren't mentally stable enough to become world leaders would keep people like them or more recently our Bush/Cheney combo from seeking public office I believe because their mental health care providers would discourage them and channel them into different directions.

[AllentownJake]

27. If they get them while their kids possibly

However, the laws are set up in the country, rightfully or wrongfully that it has to be proven that you are a threat to yourself of others before treatment can be forced upon you.

[Cleita]

31. Again you are jumping to the conclusion that I'm talking about police

action. Nothing could be further than what I am suggesting. Identifying possible psychosis could lead to the following various actions. Maybe problems in the family like an abusive parent could be brought to light and corrected. Mental conditions that require medication to stabilize the patient would most likely be identified. Some mental patients need to do therapy all their lives to maintain stability. None of this can happen if no therapist is around to provide a diagnosis and provide treatment and guidance.

[surrealAmerican]

29. I don't like the idea of screening ...

... children to determine who's "mentally stable enough" for leadership. Yes, it might rule out Hitler or Stalin, but it would also rule out Lincoln and many others who had similar issues, but went on to become great leaders.

[Cleita]

30. Whose talking about screening? That would be freeperish. I'm talking about identifying those with

potential psychopathies. They could be kept on therapy for most of their lives. Maybe medication could stabilize them. The therapists could guide them in career choices like they do life choices. What if the Columbine shooters had been identified as at risk, kept in therapy and given medication and other means of coping, we may have averted that tragedy and those two young men could have gone on to lead productive lives instead of committing suicide? We do the same for physical differences. No body will tell you that you can't become a gymnast, but if you don't have the right physical attributes you will be encouraged to try something else that you might be more successful at.

[surrealAmerican]

32. I strongly suspect that if we tested ALL children ...

... we would find that a majority have "potential psychopathies". Keeping most of our population on medication and in therapy for "most of their lives" doesn't sound like a very good option either.

[Cleita]

33. I doubt if most of the population would have to be kept on medication or

therapy. It would be a small percentage I would believe. However, you seem to be afraid of mental health evaluation and treatment like many people who aren't familiar with how it works. I know people, who can afford psychotherapy, who are able to get treatment that they need to function in daily life, people who suffer from psychoses like bi-polarism.

[Catshrink]

14. What is the difference between these murderers and a suicide bomber?

Besides the obvious that that suicide bomber dies when they commit their deed? The suicide bomber kills to achieve reward in the afterlife -- and maybe a bribe paid to his or her family. The 76 virgins thing. Scott Roeder? I think there's something to the theory posted in this thread about now he's somebody, he's accomplished something. He's been duped into thinking his reward is in heaven.

The question is what is the difference between the Christo-fascist preachers/leaders who incite these people and those who recruit suicide bombers? The former are covert and suggest while the former actually strap on the bomb. But both recruit by their language and hatred they spew, tying their "religious" message to a higher purpose that appeals to people who have no purpose in life to begin with.

Did Randall Terry tell Roeder to kill Dr. Tiller? Probably not in so many words. But by spewing the hatred, he led someone with a weak mind to believe he would achieve glory and do God's will by killing.

Don't you just love how the OT Christians pick and chose the parts of the Bible they'll follow?

[unblock]

17. they are at war. different rules apply, and our genteel logic is useless.

i agree that there is no solution meeting these people head on. backed up by radio waves and pulpit speeches making them feel that their illegal, immoral terrorist rage is legitimate, moral and holy, mere rational beings espousing logic simply have no authority or standing.

the only solution is going after the hate radio and the hate churches. boycott their sponsors, restore the fairness doctrine, support and buy up liberal media, and denounce hate speech for what it is. and impeach republicans who refuse to condemn their criminal acts.

democratic congresscritters can actually to quite a bit on that last point. congresscritters give each other power and legitimacy all the time through their wheeling and dealing. we should identify those members of congress who cross the line as toxic and refuse to do business with them. either explicitly kicking them out of congress or simply refuse to cut deals with them. eventually they will feel useless, or at least their constituency will recognize them as useless.

[CanonRay]

18. If the FBI can infiltreate and shut down these wacko Muslim groups,

even the ones with no chance of pulling anything off, how come they can't infiltrate these Christian groups? Have they been told hands off?

[Philosoraptor]

23. Christians don't want to lean on other Christians

All Christians claim to worship Christ, and like with Koresh and Jim Jones, these groups are allowed to fester because they are Christians, Muslim groups will be scrutinized with more malice, in my opinion.

On the surface, even the kooks appear to be good church going Christian people, so they are allowed to exist under our liberal freedoms of religion.

[lunatica]

19. Idiocracy has a dark side too

I think it's a combination of mediocre intelligence, general life failure and rage that's misdirected, sometimes with the generous help of Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. I saw a documentary a while back about survivalist groups. The leaders may be more intelligent, but the followers are really dumb and easily manipulated. They do recruit very young men and women.

[Philosoraptor]

25. There are many white supremacists, klansmen, & zealot Christian groups in the KC area

I have met them. Crazy people love to seek out others like themselves and form little support groups where they feel they can be as crazy as they wanna be. My brother has his little in home church group meetings with losers like himself in the 'congregation'.

[AllentownJake]

28. That movie had a way too positive spin on a dumb mob

[Dappleganger]

26. When I was in high school

I used to babysit for David Crane who was involved with Operation Rescue. He was later kicked out and formed another group with ties to the Army of God. He's been named in a number of lawsuits as well.

When I knew him he was newly married and worked in construction w/his father, didn't seem radical at the time. Not long after I went off to college I heard that the church had asked him to leave for having extremist views (he'd already spent some time in jail for behavior related to demonstrations). From what I heard today he is still involved in anti-abortion protests w/the disgusting pictures, confrontations, etc.

He's one of those whackos who also went inside churches and sent nasty letters to those who believe in birth control (in his mind its another form of abortion).

:puke:

[Mythsaje]

34. I prefer them above ground to underground

but if being able to keep an eye on them doesn't prevent them from sending tendrils out to destroy lives, there's not much point in it.

[Philosoraptor]

36. ...................