legal advice: how do I prove ageism in not getting a job?

[Lerkfish]

I had been through several steps successfully for a prime job in another location, the phone interview the guy pretty much lead me to believe I had the job. I jumped through all their hoops and they kept encouraging me. The last step before a personal interview face to face was a two hour verbal, math and programming exam that had to be administered by a proctor. I KNOW I aced the test, even though it was hard. I also have the exact skill set needed for the job.

how do I know its ageism?

because they REQUIRED me to send a notarized copy of my actual college transcript along with the proctor's completed tests (I had to give it to the proctor).

I was worried about it because it would show that even though I'm OVERqualified for the position, I"m still 50 yrs old.

This is the gist of the letter I got:

Thank you for taking the time to pursue a position with xxx. While we respect your achievements and appreciate your interest in applying, we've decided after careful consideration to move forward with other candidates.

We are unable to share details regarding our decision; however we'll keep your resume and other information on file in the event that our needs change and an appropriate position becomes available. We wish you success in your career.

Now, why tell me I cannot get details of their decision? That's odd phrasing for a turndown (believe me, I'm getting lots of turndowns, so I know)

for the hell of it, I thanked them and asked "PS: just out of curiousity, are you able to tell me the score on my examination? thanks. "

I know I won't get an answer, but I also know I aced that exam, and the ONLY thing that could have possibly worked against me was my age.

I know that. I cannot prove that.


oh well, I'm completely bummed: this was a four month process with multiple levels, each one I passed with flying colors.


too bad I quit drinking in '91. I could sure use one about now.

[joeybee12]

1. The only way would be to sue...

...that allow you to make them produce records showing they hire older people, have a high percentage of older people on staff, etc...if they produce records that show the contrary to this, you would be able to show a pattern of discrimination.

[Demobrat]

2. If you are serious about pursuing this

you'll need to know who they did hire. If it was someone in your age range of course there's no case. If it was someone much younger with worse test scores maybe ....

[Lerkfish]

7. I think I"m more frustrated than serious about pursuing it: its demoralizing cause I know

nothing to be done about it.

[pnwmom]

3. The cases I've heard about showed a pattern of discrimination.

The same thing with gender discrimination -- where my sister works, they were able to show a consistent pattern of hiring/promotion practices that discriminated against women.

I would think it would be much harder under the individual circumstance you describe. But many lawyers will give you a free consultation to let you know whether they think there is a good basis for litigation, if you want to pursue this.

I know how frustrating it must be -- the best of luck in your job search!

[AspenRose]

4. I am sorry about this

:hug:

I wonder if we are going to see more of this as older folks go back to school (to pursue "recession-proof" degrees).

assets.aarp.org/www.aarp.org_/build/templates/international/adea_paper.pdf

http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/discrimination/agedisc.htm

[ManiacJoe]

5. The letter you received contains standard legal boiler plate. (n/t)

[monmouth]

6. Nothing in your background check could foul things up? That happened

to a friend of mine, went through all that you did and did well. In the meantime while all the tests and interviews were being done a background check was being conducted. She had a DUI back in the 90s and she's convinced that's why she didn't get the job. I wish you luck in your pursuit. It's an employers market right now, they can pick and choose at will. Good luck.

[Lerkfish]

9. nope, clean record, credit score of 787

never convicted of anything other than a minor traffic ticket.

thanks for the well wishes, though.

[slackmaster]

8. I'm 51 and have had similar things happen in job searches

You aren't required to disclose your age but there are all kinds of more or less subtle ways of forcing you to reveal it.

It's probably not worth pursuing. It's very difficult to prove.

[Lerkfish]

10. yeah, well, hugs, then, compadre.

;(

[enlightenment]

16. Ditto.

They don't want older people because they're 'stale' or (if the hirer is older) they don't want older people because they're not as easy to intimidate and bullshit. But they dress it up in everything but the truth.

Might as well stake my spot out on that ice floe . . .

Good luck, Lerkfish. You have my sincere sympathies.

[slackmaster]

25. Not only are we harder to intimidate and bullshit,

We are better at negotiating a decent salary for what we do.

[raccoon]

57. I suspect another reason they don't want older people is because of

health insurance. They figure older people will have more medical expenses, and insurance companies base the premiums they charge the employer on their experience with that employer.


You have my sympathy too, Lerkfish. :hug: I suspect I've been the target of age discrimination before. As have a lot of us, undoubtedly.

[Lerkfish]

100. thanks, I'm beginning to think its the unspoken blacklist that is unprovable but is growing

what convinces me of that even more is that only people in this thread that have been defending (or denying) the bias are people that claim to be current or past hiring managers.
I think this is a tip of the iceberg sort of thing, and that we'll probably never know the full extent of what is going on.

Sort of like people claiming that everyone is an EEO employer, but look around and you don't see a whole hell of a lot of black males employed in decent jobs, even now. You see black women, because they're "twofers' two birds with one stone.

at any rate, I'm not in the same place emotionally I was two days ago, and none of it really matters, if the deck is stacked, I have no choice but to continue to tilt at that windmilll because my 10 yr old son has to eat.

If anyone would buy my body on the street, I would do that, if it came to it, but I"m not that attractive (grin).

I never thought I"d be here: i was among the top ten best at what I did, and I knew I could have called nearly ANY paper and gotten a job, but newspapers are crashing and burning right and left, and there are no jobs at all to be had.

oh well, enough whining, back to job hunting.

thanks for all the kind words, everyone.

[izquierdista]

11. Welcome to the club

There are no jobs in this economy for people who know what they are doing over 50. Talent and experience can't compete in the race to the bottom. Even if this job is given to some 20something, they could lose it to a less expensive foreigner.

[cap]

12. in fact, recruiters are being told by hiring managers not to send resumes for people over 50

I was at an alumni event with a top business school and the remarks that were being made about why people over 50 don't get hired were embarassing. I was real close to telling people that if they made these remarks or acted on these impulses in real life that it would be legally actionable.

[izquierdista]

14. And what recourse do we have?

We can always leave a business card with the recruiter that says "Consultant". That way, when the inexperienced new hire can't get the job done, we can charge the company out the ying-yang to fix the mess.

[cap]

15. we have to get off our tails and out from behind our flat screens

and start organizing real fast. Otherwise we will be sent out to pasture like the current elderly in Japan was during its greatest downturn. There is a lot of elderly poverty and suicide in Japan these days. Women between 45-60 are the largest demographic in the country (20%).

[Matariki]

13. Why do you think this bias exists?

I'm 50 too. I haven't yet encountered this but certainly know a lot of people who have. As my company lays more and more people off, I worry that my next job search is going to be harder than last time - because of my age. But I wonder why - is it a societal prejudice to age, or what. What possible reason could a company have for not hiring qualified people in their 50s or 60s?

[Fresh_Start]

18. same type of reasons they had for not hiring women for years

health care costs are higher
more likely to use sick time
perception that they are more likely to leave (at an inconvenient time) for personal reasons

[Greyhound]

21. Because your boss will be 20 years younger than you, know half as much,

and lives in fear that somebody will discover that they don't know what they're doing.

Another common scenario is that the boss is the spawn of the real boss and has successfully laid the blame for his fuck-ups on other (younger) people that simply slink away and look for something else because they don't have the self-confidence to call BS.

[northernlights]

70. ding...ding...ding WE HAVE A WINNER

I'm healthier and fitter than people half my age, including the ones that interview...and my last boss.

But at 55, I think I'm essentially unemployable. I'm currently in school for medical lab tech, which field has essentially 0% unemployment, but am afraid that I *still* won't get hired.

I do believe we need to join forces. Maybe not to sue...but to compete. Pool resources, form our own companies and win on merit.

[Greyhound]

17. It is rampant and is getting worse every day. The lawsuit is your only remedy

and the legal system and laws are so stacked against working people in favor of employers that it is nearly impossible to win, even in cases where the discrimination is blatant.

Our only real option, as far as I've been able to discover, is to go into business for ourselves. There are a lot of us out there and we are the ones that know how things work and how to get things done. Also, as time goes on and more and more of us find ourselves pushed aside, I found that a lot of us will do business with each other to the exclusion of these corporate assholes.

What do you do?

[Lerkfish]

19. Graphic Designer, art director, UI designer

web designer. I've won countless awards (including on a team that won a pulitzer).

doesn't help.

[Greyhound]

22. Cool, if it's alright I'd like to PM you. n/t

[Lerkfish]

23. sure, go right ahead.

:)

[Greyhound]

45. I think I sent it, let me know if you didn't get it. n/t

[Lerkfish]

53. yup, I got it and responded via PM

thanks

[RebelOne]

33. Too bad that my employer is not in need of a graphic designer

or art director. The company was looking for someone with your qualifications a couple of years ago. I work for a very large media corporation and they don't seem to discriminate against people over 50. In fact, I am 70 and working full-time as a copy editor. And we have many employees throughout the company in their 50s and 60s. Maybe it's because the owner is a big-time liberal. I am not going to give out his name because you would know immediately who it is.

[Lerkfish]

36. darn, well, thanks anyhow.

I appreciate the thought.

[MichaelHarris]

20. Cases such as these tend to be tried by the courts under

Rationality review. Rationality review Requires only a rational relationship to legitimate ends. The lowest level of scrutiny applied by courts deciding constitutional issues through judicial review. The two higher levels of scrutiny, strict and intermediate are usually reserved for racism and gender discrimination.

Ergo, rationality basis review is used for age discrimination. So far just babble but here is a case and reasoning to explain when no racial discrimination is evident:

Village of Arlington Heights v. Metropolitan Housing Development Corp., on it's face a discrimination case but the Supreme Court Justices, seeing no racial intent applied four tests to find circumstantial evidence of discriminatory purpose:

1. Historical Background
2. Departure from procedure
3. Substantive departure
4. Legislative administrative history

This case was about a Chicago suburb refusal to grant a request to rezone from single family to multiple family classifications. The village of Arlington heights refused to allow racially integrated low income housing. The court held that MHDC failed to establish Arlington’s racially discriminatory intent.


So what do those tests have to do with age discrimination? For you to prove age discrimination existed you would need to answer those questions. Is there historical background within the company of age discrimination within the company or organization? Did they "depart" from "normal" procedure when they chose not to hire you? Was it a substantive departure? Do they have any documented administrative history against hiring certain age groups?

I'm not a lawyer, I just finished Constitutional Law last semester so I could be totally wrong :)

[Canuckistanian]

24. Yeah, they always try to trip you up with the "college transcript"

I'm 50 years old, too. And I've had two companies ask me for my college transcript.

I always wonder why, since my resume obviously shows that I'm trained in what they want and my references back that up.

So why the transcript?

Fortunately, my school keeps very good records and I've sent my transcript out many times for my security clearances.
And I know the routine very well.

But the companies I've sent my transcript to have NEVER hired me.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

26. I see "college transcript" more and more.

I think it could be disguising age discrimination or there's another more benign explanation - that in this day and age of identity fraud and con people claiming experience, expertise, and credentials they really don't have, a lot of them are relying on making it harder to be a fraud. Some of these con type people count on companies not doing thorough background checks.

I think you can find out a lot about some companies by just looking at their corporate websites. You can tell right away that some have a good mix of employees, management, etc. and others are just as clearly a little too homogeneous.

[Lerkfish]

27. on their website, every employee photo is 30 or younger

so, what you gonna do?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

30. Interesting. Well, that is certainly a clue as to their corporate culture.

If this is a company that you still want to work for, why not send them a letter that says you still recognize that they are one of the leaders in their field and even if they have filled the position you applied for that you would be interested in working for them on a consultant or independent contractor basis. Companies often fill postions with people they know like and are already familiar with.

Or sue. I think it would be a hard case to prove in any event. Try to see who appears on their website in the position you applied for and see if their experience seems commensurate with yours. You could even google that person.

Was salary an issue? Do you feel they may have hired someone with less experience that would settle for less salary than you requested?

[Lerkfish]

31. my salary request was LOWER than their range.

They told me the salary was not a problem.

[Canuckistanian]

32. But for an engineering job, you just can't fake a diploma and experience

If you're a fraud, your colleagues will KNOW you haven't had the training. Therefore, you don't get the references.

[dflprincess]

90. They don't need the transcript though

a background check will verify what college you graduated from and what the degree is in (or the check the company I work for ran on me worked that way).

Talk to a laywer it might be that reguiring a transcript would give you grounds.

There is or was an age discrimination suit against 3M where the judge ruled that the fact the company uses the "rank and yank" system for reviews is enough cause for the suit to go forward. If that's enough, I would think requiring a transcript would be.

[leftofthedial]

28. good luck.

Ageism is rampant.

[Lerkfish]

29. on their website, every employee picture is of someone younger than 30

there are 25 photos....the average age appears to be 27.

if anyone wants to look at a link of the employee page, PM me and I'll send it to you.,

[pitohui]

34. doesn't matter if you can, they only need prove they considered you, need not hire you

the last time i looked into it, i just thru up my hands -- past a certain age, in certain jobs, the chance of getting a new job is miniscule to the vanishing point

as the law is written, they need only show that they "considered" hiring an older person or female person or whatever type of person they never hire in their corporate culture (or they only have to have one token, which they probably already have on staff and who is related to/sleeping w. a VIP) but, tsk tsk, for whatever reason, the younger person was per usual somehow more qualified for the job -- if nothing else, they'll plead poverty and claim the younger person was willing to work for less

after 50 you can pretty much forget about a career type job w. benefits, no one wants you on their health insurance plan -- you're stuck w. shitty BS like sales (commission) etc

i have no idea what to do about it, there seems to be no remedy other than hope and pray that one day there will be universal non-employment linked health care benefits

realistically this won't happen in time for us

just don't get sick and find some job where you can at least pay bills is the most likely outcome?

if you have a spouse and you're on that person's health insurance plan, it might be something that could be brought up in job interviews but it's actually illegal for them to ask about marital status so...sigh...

what can you do but wish the world was other than what it is?

IF YOU ALREADY WORKED THERE AND GOT LAID OFF BECAUSE OF AGE, YOU MIGHT HAVE A CASE --

i hope this info is outdated, and i advise you to talk w. an atty not the internets but i don't think you will be able to sue

they actually have a win/win situation by costing you a lot of money to jump thru hoops, pay for old transcripts and all that BS -- "we tried" they can claim as they wave the stack of BS paperwork


this stuff is not your fault, but some stuff that ain't your fault can't be fixed, the sun rising in the east ain't my fault but i can't change it -- if an industry is male dominated or youth dominated or whatever dominated, at some point you have to realize the odds that you're gonna be the one to break the barriers are not real huge (my example would be the oil industry, and if you look hard at the females higher up in that industry, wow, how many of them are somebody's daughter, etc. -- it is just not realistic that you as an unafiliated person are going to beat the system)


your industry is youth oriented, as you can't ever get any younger, the realistic move is probably to move into something else like teaching if you can, the lawsuit is only a remedy where you already HAD the job and a good history on that job

[Lerkfish]

35. ok, a little research proves at least one person thinks they're discriminatory

a former employee (allegedly) posted the following:

-------

I'm a former xxx employee ...observations about the organization. I am a non-techie professional with 15 years tech sector

I sued the company for discrimination and misrepresentation. At that time, he had successfully prosecuted more than 23 cases against xxx, all settled out of court (as was my case)


1. xxx likes 'em young and stupid (okay, naive) - Most new hires, average age 26, come straight out of college or have held only one job post-graduation. They don't know what the real working world expects from employees in terms of salary, performance, hours worked, etc. (More related info follows.)

2. xxx doesn't hire locally (Wisconsin)- They have to preserve their local reputation by making sure the truth about their abusive practices doesn't get out. If you're a UW grad, look elsewhere.

3. xxx doesn't hire locally (US) - Think indentured servitude doesn't exist any more? More than 60 percent of all xxx new hires are in this country on H1B (employment) visas obtained by xxx courtesy of their staff attorneys. Most are from China and India. They are required to sign a contract stating that they, the employee, will work for xxx for five years and remain in good standing or face repaying the legal fees xxx incurred paying for the H1B. In my observations, those fees total between $25,000 and $75,000 depending on the billing structure ($300 an hour is common), nature of the work performed, and the applicant's situation or standing. Do you think any immigrant from Tamil Nadu is going to jeopardize his or her employment before their obligation has been satisfied? Not when it takes 50 rupees to equal a dollar.

3. xxx practices legal discrimination - Being a privately held company, they escape scrutiny from those who provide oversight to prevent abuses. When I complained to the HR director about the singular treatment I received from my supervisor, she suggested I could take my case to founder/president Judy Faulkner. She then advised me that my employment was likely to end if I did so because Judy and my supervisor were close friends. Under federal and Wisconsin employment law, this is known as retaliation, and is strictly prohibited.

4. xxx practices illegal discrimination - Despite the hiring of foreign nationals, xxx doesn't hire minorities and discriminates according to age. When I left, only one out of 1200 employees could be considered African-American, and she was bi-racial. She was a receptionist at that. There were no Hispanic Americans on staff. As of then, no one hired after the age of 40 had lasted more than 2 years, unless they were recruited by Judy. There were no employees with visible physical impairments. If you were foolish enough to advise your supervisor that you had been diagnosed with clinical depression (caused by work there, in all likelihood) be prepared for incremental probation leading to termination.

5. xxx pays below market - Salaries are 5 to 15 percent below what the regional market pays for similar roles and titles. When calculated on an hourly basis, my pay was equal to or less than the wage earned by cashiers in my local grocery. (See item 6.)

6. xxx is an electronic sweatshop - Once you've worked a 60-hour week, you'll always be expected to work 80. If you work on Saturday, be prepared to give up Sundays as well. If you don't do either, don't expect to last more than six months.

7. xxx uses dishonest tactics in the marketplace - Corporate espionage, as confessed by the perpetrator to me directly, landed the billion-dollar Kaiser deal. Cerner Corp, xxx's "evil empire" competitor, axed the top third of their senior marketing staff for falling victim to it. All this from a company that touts its ethics.

[pitohui]

38. he didn't settle out of court and i can tell you how i know

any settlement bars you from discussing your settlement

this person is bitter and i'm sure bitter w. good reason but they didn't get any settlement and i don't see how it would help you to go down this path of bitterness

as always, of course, stop talking about any potential lawsuit on the internet and talk to an attorney who specializes in this area of the law

i would be surprised if you got different information from what i've said

AND EVERY ATTY WILL TELL YOU -- IF YOU'RE PLANNING A LAWSUIT STFU

[Lerkfish]

40. LOL! well, thanks for the advice.

[undeterred]

37. Its illegal to ask your age, but not to ask when you graduated H.S.

so they always know your age.

[Gwendolyn]

39. It's going to take eons... or at least five years, to get ageism out of the picture.

The problem is that back in the days of yore, (about fifteen years ago) when things were economically stable, there were a lot of the elderly still working who just didn't get it. Many had been working at their companies since forever and had grown to be quite cynical, lacking in energy, and missing deadlines because who would fire them anyhoo after so many years. (I'm in the same biz as you.) This perception, based partly in reality, but also exaggerated, has colored the policies of many industries. It's partly that and also, older people do have to work for people much younger, and that creates embarrassment on the part of the younger.

Not that this helps you. Just explaining why it is so.

[cap]

55. there is no statisitical study that will back the conclusions that you are stating

There is scientific study stating that as you get older you become wiser and there is a "wisdom dividend".

Please remember that you too will become old... that, according to your theory, you,too, will have no future. That in 20 years, you will be "cynical, lack energy, and miss deadlines". What is your plan for dealing with your future deficits? When you think it through, you will realize that these statements will not apply to you personally! I am sure of it.

Oh yeah, and BTW, how do you feel about supporting your parents financially after they are old?


20% of the population are women between 45 and 60.... add in the men and you are discriminating against a huge chunk of society.

[Lerkfish]

41. ok, I guess never mind. researching multiple sources

makes it sound like a corporate climate I'm better off without.

not even counting the ageism

[Gwendolyn]

44. About a year to the day...

when I was laid off I read something here that changed the way I thought about everything. It paid off. Maybe corpie culture isn't the way to go or the way to think about making a living. I'm making a decent salary now as a freelancer/contract person. It was bad at first considering my limited accounting skills, but in the end, it's worked out. Have hope. And btw... the most soul-numbing thing in the world is going from one job interview to the next.

[Berry Cool]

48. But if you freelance or do work on contract you have to wear all the hats.

You have to market yourself, do your own books, dun everyone you bill to get paid, etc. Oh, and in the good old US of A you also have to pay for your own health insurance.

It's not a solution for everyone.

[pitohui]

49. and you can't buy health insurance coverage that will actually cover you

in my state health insurance for a woman of 50 is not to be had for a price you can pay, in other states, sure, they take your money, but since you are one person and have nobody behind you to back you up, when you do get seriously ill/injured they find a way to crawfish and you will not get any kind of serious reimbursement

didn't you see sicko?

self employment is a terrible road for anyone over 50 until we get a different/universal health care system

a better road is to marry someone who can get spousal health insurance (one of the reasons why gay marriage is so "hot" now when at one time the freedom NOT to be married was very important to gay and even non-money grubbing straight singles -- because at the end of the day, marriage is a financial/economic transaction) or if this is not an option, you pretty much have to take some job, any job

self employment is the road to bankruptcy if you're ever seriously ill/injured

i would never tell anyone i cared about to become self employed, it's a path i regret taking every single day, altho in my case i had no choice (like the OP i was a victim of discrimination)

if you have no choice, you have no choice, but it is certainly not a great life to get NO paid health insurance, NO paid vacations, fuck you don't even get christmas off paid if you're self employed -- you work ever fucking day or you go backward and lose money -- it fucking SUCKS

[Habibi]

42. Are you networking?

Are there any networking orgs. in your area? If so, check them out. We have at least two here and I see lots of people my age (51) and older at their events. Some of them are working but want to keep their contacts active ('cause you never know). It's a slow process, but I *think* a good way to get known by people who can do you some good.

I really have to get back into it, myself. It's hard; I'm shy. :)

[Lerkfish]

43. thanks for the suggestion!

[KansDem]

46. Good luck!

I'm 56 and will be looking to change jobs soon.

Keep us posted on your experience! :hi:

[Missy Vixen]

47. My husband's 44

We are already seeing it. We do not have perfect credit, but I'm thinking the thing that's tripped him up in multiple interviews now is age. He just heard last week he didn't get a contract job with a certain employer in the Seattle area -- the paperwork for a contract job took a day and a half to satisfactorily complete, he rewrote his resume, he had two phone interviews and a face to face, and suddenly, it was "we're passing".

I'm starting to believe his best option is to become a consultant as well.

[Matariki]

74. It's illegal to use credit reporting for job applications in Washington State.

Unless it's a job in an industry that has a demonstrable relevancy to needing an applicant's credit score - like a financial industry job.

[Missy Vixen]

77. It may be illegal, but we know at least one job he was passed over for

because of our credit report.

He's in IT...

[Matariki]

79. In Washington?

Report it to the Attorney General. Seriously. Companies aren't even allowed request applicant's credit reports, unless they have a compelling reason to do so. Only certain industries can legally make that claim.

The law was enacted in 2007 - http://www.jacksonlewis.com/legalupdates/article.cfm?aid=1244

[Missy Vixen]

95. Matariki, we'll be doing that

Thank you so much for the advice; I had no idea it was illegal in Washington to base employment on a credit report...

:hi:

[WillowTree]

50. Don't be too disheartened.

Two years ago I applied for a position that I really wanted in the worst way. This was a well-established company, not too huge (about 600 employees at the time) with a great corporate culture and outstanding benes. When I went for the second interview, I was very encouraged by the facts that 1) the hiring manager was a woman about my age with a history almost identical to my own and 2) she came right out an told me that I had scored head-and-shoulders higher on the tests (directly related to the position) that they had had me take. I was almost giddy on the way home.

I waited about three weeks and when I still hadn't heard anything, I called HR to inquire and was told that the position had not yet been filled and that if I hadn't received a rejection letter, I was still in the running. So I waited awhile longer.

When I still hadn't heard anything a few weeks later, I called again. The girl in HR sounded surprised because, she said, that the job had by then been filled and they had sent letters to all other candidates. She asked me to hold on a minute so that she could check my file to see what happened and then came back to the phone and said that the apparent reason that I hadn't received a letter was that the manager had failed to return my file to HR. She apologized profusely and wished me good luck.

It's the only time I can say that I ever just sat down and cried over such a situation and believe me, I'd applied for a lot of jobs.

Six full months later, out of nowhere, that manager called me. She explained that someone else had come in for the job for which I'd interviewed who was al all-out ace in that particular discipline but she'd held on to my file because she knew that she would be hiring for something else she thought I would be better suited for a bit later. She offered me that position, same pay grade, slightly more up my alley. I started two weeks later.

I was 57 years old. It can happen.

[aikoaiko]

51. Maybe someone did better than you.

:shrug:

Not disclosing the reasons for a hiring decision is standard these days given the litigious nature of some folk.

I'm sorry you didn't get the job though. Being out of work is really difficult. Good luck on the next one.

[old mark]

52. Lf: Many years ago, I was trying to get into a Federal sponsored

job training program and was told outright by the head of the program that I was "too old" to be re-trained (I was in my 40's). I called him back a few days later and he denied ever having said that, and of course I could never prove he did say it. They will NEVER admit to discrimination, but I am sure you are correct. HR people have a lot of code words they employ so that others in their field understand exactly what they are trying to convey. You might want to consult a specialist lawyer in employment /discrimination, but I will tell you now they are very busy and hard to get to see.
FWIW, I finally just forgot about it and went back to college.
Good luck.

mark

[pipoman]

54. I have 2 80 year olds working for me right now,,the most productive/reliable employees I have..

[Lerkfish]

56. well, when they wouldn't tell me my score, this is what I wrote back to them

Hi xxx:

Well, that's a shame, cause I know I missed at least one question, but I thought I did pretty well on the rest of it. Even though I didn't get the job, I really wanted to know how well I did.

Although, I'm really glad I got your note when i did, because I was just starting on a project mockup of how to bring xxx up to the cutting edge of xxxxx. I really had a multi-million dollar idea, one that would have eclipsed your competition. I was going to bring the flash animation mockup with me to the personal interview.

But, after your email yesterday, I was a bit stunned, and I did some research online, which seems to indicate an alleged anti-age bias in your hiring practices, according to some. And indeed, on your website, judging from the photos of your employees, I'm guessing an average age of 27 years old. One wonders how old your oldest non-management employee is?

Asking for a college transcript is a not so transparent way of finding out my age without directly asking me and opening yourself up to a lawsuit, I suppose.

See, that's the problem when you sacrifice experience for malleability. You lose out on something that could really benefit your company.

Sincerely,
(lerkfish)

[deaniac21]

58. I won't hire over qualified canidates. It's a red flag that

something is wrong.

[AllieB]

60. How so? In this economy, many managerial/director positions are slashed.

Middle management is usually the first eliminated. Or does over-qualified mean that they had the initiative to go out and get additional degrees or certifications?

[Lerkfish]

62. what could be wrong? have you looked at the economy lately?

if you're someone who hires people, you're part of the friggin problem, you know? if you make meaningless snap judgements like that.

I mean, WTF? you only hire UNDERqualified people?

screw you.

[deaniac21]

63. I hire qualified people. Over qualified will be one of two things.

1. They are looking for a lower level job becase they weren't good at what they were doing and they tend to be awful employees.

2. They are actually very good at what they do and will leave you the second something better becomes available.

These aren't snap judgements and I would suggest your attitude may be causing you problems. Very quick to go ballistic.

[Lerkfish]

64. just a little frustrated. I have an impeccable record and glowing references.

I worked for over twenty years in newspapers, and you know what's happening to newspapers, right?
my paper was downsized and I am trying to get into other lines of work.

and I stand by you making snap judgements. you proved it with your post. In neither case do you look at their actual abilities, only your preconceptions based on stereotypes.
You should probably not be allowed to hire anyone.


how many people over 45 do you hire? be honest.

[deaniac21]

66. I have seen this situation over and over again. I really try to

hire the best qualified that I beleive will stay. We invest a ton of training. Most of the time we are looking for entry level "right out of school" but when experience is needed I will hire over 50....I'm 58. Here in Arkansas we aren't experiencing very high unemployment. Especially in the professional ranks. I feel for you and I know that at any minute I could be in the same situation as you. Good Luck.

[Lerkfish]

67. "Most of the time we are looking for entry level "right out of school" "

exactly. Otherwise, thanks for your post.

[Occam Bandage]

80. That's not an unwise decision, and not for age-related reasons.

Overqualified employees are likely to jump ship as soon as they get a better offer. It's true that the economy has created many people who are overqualified for the positions they seek, yes--and those people are likely to leave those positions the minute they get an offer for a job similar to their old one.

[AdHocSolver]

96. Most of what I would have replied was posted by others, but your post deserves a response.

I interpret your assessment of over overqualified a different way.

When there is high unemployment and jobs are scarce, a highly qualified individual who has a family to support will try to find a job wherever they can.

When there is high unemployment, even if the person is very good, that doesn't mean that they will find another job that quickly. If most other potential bosses have your attitude, they probably wouldn't find another job anyway.

My thinking is that if a person is hired who is competent, but jobs are scarce, they would not give up that job so readily -- unless they had reason to believe their current job might be eliminated or the current boss was a total douche bag and unpleasant to work for.

[WillowTree]

84. Not only that, but any hiring manager knows...

....that if the over-qualified person gets hired, chances are better than not that s/he will continue to look for another position at his/her previous level and will likely be out the door as soon as something better comes down the pike and they'll have to start all over again.

That's just what happened in my last job. I was really surprised that I even got an interview considering the fact that it was a really low-level, chump change job, offering way over-priced benefits that were lousy at any price, and not great working conditions. The only "saving grace" parts for me were that 1) the office was literally 5 minutes' drive from home and 2) the whole "it's easier to get a job if you've already got a job" thing.

She knew when she hired me that I was probably going to be a short-timer, but she had a problem situation in her office and she knew that with my background, I'd probably stand a better chance of being able to straighten-out her mess better than just about anyone else she was going to find for what she was paying. And I did straighten it out.

Three-and-a-half months later I got the call about the other job I talked about and I was outta there. We were both lucky. I got something I could live with (barely) to tide me over until the right job came along and she got someone to solve her problem at a bargain rate. But, largely, they don't want to hire someone who they have good reason to think might take a hike and leave them right back where they started and I can't say that I blame them.

[Lerkfish]

99. That may have been true in a healthy economy, but that's not where we are now

I can honestly say, that being 50, if I can secure a halfway decent job, I will not let go of it, because there are not a lot of options out there.

I

[Greyhound]

101. You openly admit that you are part of the problem and tragically don't even see it. n/t

[boomerbust]

59. It's tough all over Lerk

I'm 55 and disabled and applied for a seasonal dish washing job at the local resort and was interviewed when I turned in the app. The young lady was trying her best not to laugh in my face while she made this statement, "We have a lot of college kids applying too". What she was really saying was don't call us we will call you, you old fool. And I guess I understand their thinking.

[Lerkfish]

61. yeah, I guess its ice floes for anyone over 40. And since companies are laying

off older employees, and no one is hiring older employees, we're supposed to find something to live on for 15 years until retirement.

but the problem is, I have a family to feed, its isn't just me. My son is 10.

what is this country going to do with all these homeless old people?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

65. Well First Off, You'd Have To Have Even The Slightest Reason To Assume Ageism.

At this time, you've shown none. All you've shown is that you are legitimately upset due to not getting a position you feel you were qualified for, and are now possibly overreacting by wanting to cry discrimination.

Do you know who the job went to? How old they were? How many other applicants ALSO had the qualifications and aced the exam?

I understand you're upset. But going from disappointment over not getting the job to accusations of ageism with intent to sue, is a tad overreactive.

[Lerkfish]

68. read the entire thread, there is reason to assume, although not enough to prove

but thanks for your supportive...er I mean judgmental...post.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

69. Oh, You Mean Your Supposed Letter From Some Supposed Other Employee?

Yeah... Like, that kinda don't cut it pally.

You didn't get the job. I'm sorry to hear that. Stop over-reacting, pick yourself up, know you can do it, and start looking elsewhere. That's all I can tell ya.

[Lerkfish]

71. no. not that post

but thanks for the advice.

[Lerkfish]

72. Thanks everyone for posting.

I needed to vent and was able to, so thanks.

no, I"m not going to sue them, yes, I"m going to move on.

yes, I think they probably are age biased, but no, I don't think there is any substantial way to prove it.

life goes on.

i have a 10 year old son and wife to feed, and haven't had a permanent job since december. So, I keep going.


sorry if, in my frustration, I offended anyone.

[southernyankeebelle]

73. ITS NOT YOUR IMAGINATION. IF YOU FEEL THAT IS WHAT

IT WAS BY GOLLY IT PROBABLY WAS. THERE ISN'T ANYTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. I REMEMBERED ONCE YEARS AGO I WAS QUALIFIED FOR THIS JOB. I KNOW THEY WANTED TO HIRE ME BECAUSE I HAD THE EXPERIENCE YET HE WAS AFRAID TO BECAUSE HE HAD A HISPANIC PERSON THAT HE HAD A PROBLEM WITH AND HE GOT RID OF HIM. NOW I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS WITH THE GUY. IT WAS A CIVIL SERVICE JOB AND THE OTHER PERSON BESIDE MYSELF HAD BEEN AN ENLISTED SOLDIER YET I STILL HAD MORE EXPERIENCE THAN SHE HAD. NOW THIS GIRL GOT THE JOB AND I GOT A JOB WITH ANOTHER OFFICE DOWN THE HALL. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT NOT GETTING THE JOB. IT THOUGHT BECAUSE SHE WAS BUILT NICELY AND WAS YOUNGER THAN ME THAT WAS WHY SHE GOT IT. WELL MONTHS LATER SHE WAS THE ONE THAT TOLD ME WHY SHE GOT THE JOB. MY BOSS TOLD ME THEY WANTED TO HIRE ME NOT HER. WELL I LET IT GO. I DIDN'T WANT ANY TROUBLE. IT TURNED OUT THAT THIS GIRL WAS A WACK JOB. I HAD THE HABIT OF STAMP OUR ENVLOPES FIRST CLASS AT LEAST 4 TIMES. 2 ON THE FRONT AND 2 ON THE BACK. WE WORKED OUT OF DIFFERENT OFFICES AND DONT YOU KNOW SHE TRIED TO REPORT ME TO THE POST OFFICE. HER BOSS AND MY BOSS THOUGHT SHE WAS A NUTJOB. SHE WAS. I KEPT ON DOING IT JUST TO GET HER MAD. I KNOW I DIDN'T GET JOBS BECAUSE OF MY WEIGHT, AGE. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I FOUND THAT THE PERSON THAT HIRED ME GOT A GOOD HARD WORKING PERSON. I ALWAYS FELT I HAD TO PROOF MYSELF. I HAVE GOTTEN MANY AWARDS FROM WORK. I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL BUT DON'T GIVE INTO THAT MIND SET. YOU WILL GET A JOB. JUST BE PATIENT. I HAVE HAD MANY DISAPPOINTMENTS BUT GOD DOES OPEN DOORS WHEN HE IS READY.

[anigbrowl]

91. So, wall of text, we meet again...I thought I had killed you in Istanbul.

[slackmaster]

75. UPDATE not intended as a thread-jack, but I just got a job offer

I just got a job offer from a company that interviewed me the week before last and last week.

The two techies who initially screened me were about 48-ish and 55-ish. The COO appears to be in his mid-40s.

$10 K per year pay increase, and 1/3 the distance from home compared to my current gig (where I have gotten a total of 4% pay increase over five years while other, mostly younger people have gotten good raises and promotions).

I'm going to take it!

[Lerkfish]

76. congrats!

:)

[WillowTree]

85. Good for you!

I know just how that feels and I couldn't be more pleased for you.

[Occam Bandage]

78. I would think that if they had no interest in hiring a 50-year-old,

they wouldn't have kept inviting you back for more interviews and more examinations. It's quite possible they did believe you were overqualified; it's also possible (and, I think, most likely) that they filled the position with someone they preferred to you for job-related reasons; it's also possible that you didn't perform as well as you believed you did.

I don't see any evidence of ageism at all, reall.

[Greyhound]

81. How old are you? n/t

[Occam Bandage]

82. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? nt

[Greyhound]

83. That's what I thought.

Get back to us in 15 - 20 years.

[Occam Bandage]

86. Get back to us when you get a coherent argument.

"I'm old" is not an argument for anything.

[Greyhound]

87. You attempt to speak about something you have no knowledge of.

I could spend days relating case after case after case of this same scenario, all of them too similar to be coincidence, and you would deny them all simply because it is outside of your tiny experience. My father told me, when I was too young to understand it in full, "If someone calls you an asshole, they're probably just having a bad day and you got in the way. When two people call you an asshole, you're probably just having a bad day and it's time for a break. When three people call you an asshole, look in the mirror and try to see what they're talking about".

There is a reason that the young are so often though to be foolish and also why the old are so often thought to be rigid. We each have to look within ourselves to see what is there.

Who was it that said, "Youth is wasted on the young"?

[Occam Bandage]

88. While philosophizing about the nature of man in all his ages is pleasant,

it doesn't really change the facts of the case as presented. There isn't a case for ageism in a guy who applies for a job (that he admits he's overqualified for) and doesn't get it. And it doesn't change the contradiction between the letter's claim that the business does not consider hiring those past their thirties and the OP's claim that he went in for multiple interviews and tests before they rejected him.

I worked for three years in an HR department. Not long, but long enough to be on the other side of plenty of angry letters and phone calls implying or claiming discrimination. Some people just can't accept that we didn't consider them the best-suited person for the job, and needed to blow off some steam.

[Greyhound]

92. So how old are you? You dance and spin and still have not addressed the central issue.

This is happening and has happened millions upon millions of times.

Employers like young, unsure, cheap employees regardless of talent or knowledge. You can stomp and scream and insist you are right forever but it will not change the facts.

And the fact that you worked in HR counts as the first two times.

[pitohui]

93. you have no clue what you're talking about

if you actually did work in HR, you would know damn good and well that to comply with the law aga. age discrimination you only have to pretend that you gave seriously consideration to guy over 40 -- hence the multiple interviews when they had no intention of hiring him in their corporate culture

the company doesn't have to hire the guy to protect themselves, they just have to make a big expensive pretense (esp. expensive for him since he has to waste time money on all these interviews and paperwork) to make the BS argument you make

"we must be free of ageism, we spent SOOO much time yakking to him"

this scam has been around since the 80s, who doesn't know the law on this point by now?

you are not fooling anyone but yourself

it is actually a particular cruelty of usa law that a company can protect itself from losing a lawsuit by wasting so much of the candidate's time when there is never any chance the dude is gonna get hired


i agree the guy's angry letter was immature and counter productive but fuck it all, you are taking bread out of his mouth, what is he supposed to do, stand down shut the fuck up and kill himself? even if he's willing to do that and beg on the streets, there's a child involved

he's in a tough spot and pretending he isn't in a tough spot is just bullshit, my friend, and if you were really in HR, you know it

[WillowTree]

94. And you're so sure that "they had no intention of hiring him".......how?

More assumptions that can't possibly be proved.

[WillowTree]

89. Do you have any idea...

....how many people outright lie about their experience and/or education on job applications? Are prospective employers now not supposed to be able to require college transcripts? Should they not be able to verify your references, either? Maybe interviewers should be required to wear a blindfold when they talk to applicants so they can't see how old or young or fat or thin or fair- or dark-skinned you look, too. If they'd interviewed you multiple times and reviewed your work history, chances are they had a fairly good idea how old you were well before they saw your transcripts. Assuming that they wanted your transcripts to figure out how old you are and that's the reason they didn't hire you is just lame.

And, in most cases, employers won't tell people why they didn't get the job because it has a great potential to open a messy can o' worms. Let's say that they did answer your question and told you your score and it was 98%. I'm getting the impression that you're the sort who would then want to know the score of the person they did wind up hiring. And if she or he had scored 96%......then what? Would you demand to know how old the person they hired was? And expect them to have to explain what the hired person's other qualifications were?

Could it have been age discrimination? Of course it could have been. But the fact is, you don't know that they didn't hire someone who had similar qualifications to yours who they just liked better. They're perfectly within their rights to do that. And you don't know if the person that they wound up hiring was 53. You don't know that. I mean, are you sure that no one could possibly have been more qualified than you? Even with all the people looking for work in this job market?

Look, you can get it in your head that the only reason you didn't get the job was because you're 50 years old and you can dwell on that. And you can make the same assumption the next time you don't get hired. But pretty soon it's going to start showing in your attitude when you interview in subtle little ways that you won't even be aware of but recruiters and HR people will zoom in on like a laser beam and you'll stop even getting second interviews. Or you can keep a positive outlook and remind yourself that there's someone out there who's looking for exactly the person you are and you just have to find them, just like I did when I was 57. The choice is yours.

[Lerkfish]

98. When I include references that are glowing, with numbers they can call, a website

that displays and links to actual work, and over 100 ineternational, national and regional professional awards that can be easily checked online, including a Pulitzer, I don't think there should be any problem establishing that I am who i say I am.
Since I"m 50, my college transcripts are completely unnecessary to confirm the veracity of my resume, most of which is detailing my professional accomplishments which are easily verified with almost no effort.

so, I think your point, while perhaps valid in other circumstances, is not valid in my case.


and to your other point that they could have hired someone older than me, if you go to their website, there are 25 photos of employees that i would guess AVERAGE to 27 years old, with the oldest looking maybe 30. Several look like right out of high schoool or college, NONE look my age.

Now, you could say that might not be representative of their entire workforce, but it IS representative of the image they wish to project, at any rate.

However, your other advice at the end is extremely valid, and is what I'm going to be doing: moving on, shaking it off, and continuing to try to gain employment. Because the alternative is to be homeless by the end of the year. Since I have a family, I will do all I can to avoid that. I have been effectively unemployed since December. I had some severance, some savings, but we can't live on that forever. We are having an open house this sunday in an attempt to liquidate our assets and move into a cheap apartment to stretch out the money as long as possible while I continue to look for work.

It's really no one's fault if I don't get a job, but if I don't, someone like me who has never been out of a job in over 30 years, is going to have to make some difficult and painful choices. I realize I am not the only one in my predicament, but my priority is my own family, and unfortunately, due to neck and back surgery, manual labor, even if I could get it at my age, would be difficult.

I was also turned down for unemployment, since states are being extra finicky with their own low coffers, and well...

just well.

I will do my best. I do not want to think about what happens to my family if I cannot find a job.

[AdHocSolver]

97. Managers will keep several good candidates dangling in case their first choice says no.

You may have gotten a job offer if the first candidate they offered the job to said "No". It isn't nice, but that is often done.

Companies play these games with people to avoid the time and expense of another job search. It isn't nice, but they do it because they can get away with it.

I recommend that you not get snippy with them. If they liked you, and you don't antagonize them, they may encourage you to apply for another position.

Several years ago, I worked for a company as a programmer on a contract basis that hired a lot of engineers. They had this guy's resume and the manager decided that no one could be as good as this guy's resume suggested. I had worked with the engineer before and I told this manager that he was that good.

The manager finally called him in for an interview for a position, but hired another, younger engineer for the project. I was disappointed and asked why "my" guy wasn't hired. The manager said that the other applicant had spent a year working on an identical project, so they picked him.

A few months later, the guy I had recommended (he was about fifty at the time) was hired.

That said, I had an experience similar to what you described. I had interviewed for several positions with this company over a seven year period with never an actual job offer. The last time I interviewed, I took a computer administered programming test, and had a technical interview. I found out that I passed the interview and got 96 percent on the test.

I realized that they were just using me to test their recruiting system when I got a call asking me to retake the test. Why? Because no one had ever actually completed the test before or got such a high score, so they thought I had somehow cheated, and they wanted to find out how I did it.

They didn't spell it out like that, but that was the gist of what I was told. I told them that was crazy, and I wasn't interested.

I am sure that my age was a factor. However, it is so hard to prove (they have all kinds of excuses), and I never seriously contemplated a law suit. It costs a ton of money and their lawyers will put you through hell.

There is another consideration, besides age. Years ago as a young person, I applied for a job in which I took a test. I got 100 percent. The manager was very impressed. I thought, in my naivete, I have this job sewed up. Wrong. After complimenting me on my score, the manager informed me that no one had ever before gotten 100 percent on the test. Even the manager had not gotten 100 percent on this test. End of interview.

Have you looked into working on a contract basis? There are a lot of agencies around. Many don't provide benefits. However, employers will use them to try out a potential employee to see if that person would be a good fit. Since contracts are usually for a limited time, employers will more likely "take a chance" on a person that they would hesitate to give "permanent" employment to.