DU is at a turning point. We will either be able to discuss POLICY or we will become Teenbeat Obama

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

We were able to discuss policies during the Bush administration. We were able to discuss policy during the primaries. We were able to discuss policy during the GE. We should be able to discuss POLICY during the Obama administration as hardcore Democrats.

In my opinion, this wonderful, wonderful site as always functioned best as a news aggregator, research forum, up-to-the-second-reportage of current events, scathing commentary on our opponents, debunking the right wing, and in so many other ways.

we have been at our WORST (in my opinion) when we debate the inconsequential, i.e. personal traits that have nothing to do with governance - I'd list them, but when I started I thought why bother, I think you know the kinds of things I'm referring to.

Obama himself has said "Make me." By that I think he means it's up to us to make him become the best president he can possibly be. Sometimes that might mean making so MUCH of a stink it gives him political cover to do the things WE DEMAND even though it might upset the status quo.

[kentuck]

1. I think that is the best route for us to take...

Make them uncomfortable...very uncomfortable. Sometimes we may have to do it to our own to get them off the dime.

[Roadcyclist]

99. DU should embrace critical thought rather than cheerleading

There are some posters on here who write very thoughtful posts on critical issues. There are many who simply want to cheer Obama's election because there is some social enlightenment that America voted for a multi-racial American. I surely feel that same pride but being President is about policy. Obama is changing policy from his promises left and right. I, for one, will not vote for him again unless I ses a turn in his policy back to the ideals he espoused during the election.

[Butch350]

137. Well, you got 3 plus years to go - I hope the hot-air supply lasts.

[SemperEadem]

197. such a declaration when the man hasn't even been in office

a good 6 months yet.

I'm willing to give them man a few more years before calling for him to be lynched.

[bobburgster]

277. Some cheerleading is okay by me.

I backed Obama from the beginning, through thick and thin. I was ecstatic when he won! I was around for Bobby Kennedy too. Few others since then have ignited my passion and hope for change. I believe thoughtful posts, and discussions, on critical issues are beneficial for Obama whether pro or con. BUT, I have also seen many posts on here already whining because they are not having things go exactly their way. WTF! That is exactly how we end up getting beaten by the republicans time and again....rather then come to consensus we fight among ourselves or become quickly disillusioned because things didn't go exactly as we wanted.

[DesertDiamond]

132. Some of us are cheering him because we love some of the things he's doing...

Personally, that doesn't mean I'm always going to agree with him. But when he does something I really like, I'll cheer.

[bjobotts]

248. Glenn Greenwald's post states all the good things to cheer about and also

the radical Bush-like things he's done as well. It's early yet but he'll only hear form the right if the left doesn't pressure him as well. He'll try to appease those who pressure him the most but we must also back him when he does great things.

We are trying to take our country back from the mess of the last 30yrs which culminated the last 8yrs into a climax.

[scheming daemons]

2. "Discussing policy" should go a little beyond "Obama sucks! We were hoodwinked!" don't you think?

Because that's what DU has basically become...


...just saying.

[Mythsaje]

5. And it hasn't? I beg to differ. n/t

[TwilightZone]

10. It's funny how some cannot see that they are exactly that which they claim to abhor.

Did I say funny? I meant pitiful.

[glitch]

13. Funny how people see only what they choose.

And by funny I mean bizarre.

[bahrbearian]

22. So how are those Rose Colored Spectacles

[blackbart99]

96. Mine are beige colored...........

[Skittles]

207. it's not pitiful

it's fucking pathetic

[MannyGoldstein]

108. Examples, Please? n/t

[bjobotts]

241. Yes examples. Besides mental masturbation what are they refering to?

[bjobotts]

242. If we screamed about it when Bush did it we should scream if Obama does it.

[bjobotts]

244. We're really getting screwed on no single payer HC reform. Obama says

Medicare is a great deficit burden but it wouldn't be if everyone had it...no more S-CHIP necessary too. Everyone is covered by Medicare and it would always be solvent with very little tax burden.
Right now 2.6% of income taxes go toward Medicare and Medicaid but if increased to 5% it would still result in about only 10% of what the majority currently pays for HC and be enough to cover dental and visual as well.

Billions are being spent to prevent a single payer not for profit national HJC ins plan because privatre ins knows ;that it would be so successful it would drive them out of their profiteering business pl;us decrease campaign contributions dramatically (oh no, can't let that happen). The senate and Obama are doing everything they can to prevent a single payer system...they are calling a decrease in profits for private ins over the next 10yrs...Health care reform.

Obama was all for single payer before becoming president so we must keep the pressure up to get it. Remember, Billions are being spent to stop it...paying the MSM and the legislature including the executive office.

Nothing will ever get passed the senate filibuster and until they get rid of that senate rule the minority will obstruct the will of the majority...on everything

[Captain Hilts]

253. That's right. Look at policies without the proper nouns attached to them. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

255. You must be on a different DU than I, if you believe that too be true.

Or maybe you just made that up, too be divisive? :shrug:

[redqueen]

283. No, it's the same DU... and those are *quotes*.

Funny how the side that says some want NO criticism of Obama can never back that up with quotes... they just say "close enough".

Getting pretty fucking sickening too.

[ixion]

3. I'll always vote yes for open debate

it's the only way to get to the truth. :applause:

[Mythsaje]

4. Works for me...

I can be plenty stinky.

[kentuck]

6. Yes...you...can .

:-)

[bahrbearian]

24. Your not Stinky , thats just the Aroma of Tacoma

[Mythsaje]

28. What aroma? It's all but gone now. :) n/t

[bahrbearian]

38. Hey I live East of you , so maybe that is you.

Come on now you never heard of the Aroma of Tacoma. and there still is a little bit.

[Mythsaje]

40. Oh a little, occasionally...

These days the sewage treatment plant, on the other hand...

[bahrbearian]

41. My bad its just the ,dairy next door, I always thought that was Tacoma.

[marmar]

7. Very eloquent Phoebe........I enthusiastically supported Obama and still do, but.....

.... when policy is bollocksed up, it's bollocksed up. And unlike the last 8 years, WE ACTUALLY CAN INFLUENCE a change in direction. Obama's a pragmatist and an intellectual, so I have a feeling he won't doggedly cling to failing policies because of his "gut". And he's got to hear it from us......

[villager]

8. One of the great failures of the Clinton Era was a complacent left

...not visible on the streets, or anywhere else, ceding everything to the corporadoes.

And Clinton proved to be very, very "moveable" by the corporadoes...

[Captain Hilts]

234. BINGO! nt

[bluestateguy]

9. Yes, open debate, by all means. But the door swings both ways too.

Those of us who support the president's compromise on the military tribunals also deserve not to be shouted down, intimidated and saturated with bile.

[tnlefty]

18. Just out of curiousity, why would you support

military tribunals?

[Djinn]

68. I wont shout you down nor "saturate" you with bile

but I will point out that what you call a "compromise" is actually just a resort to a kangaroo court which everyone here rightly disdained when Bush was stumping for them.

If YOU are ever arrested do you think you should have the right to a trial?

If YOU are ever kidnapped from your own country by a foreign government and then flown around the world for secret torture before being handed up to a military tribunal in which you can not view the "evidence" against you and where your statements (and those of others) gleaned after torture can be used against you, do you think that you could view it as an acceptable compromise?

I don't see how it is possible to "intimidate" someone on a forum, if one does not have the strength in ones own opinions to back them up in the face of an argument then that is ones own fault, not a reflection of the nefarious attitudes of those disputing you.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

211. Yeah could you explain your support for the military tribunals?

and did you also support them when Bush was president?

[glitch]

11. Political cover is VITAL.

Without it he will have to stand alone to the worst about our political culture.

Oh, and "Teenbeat Obama" :rofl:

[Rowdyboy]

12. The debate, or lack thereof, goes both ways....for every post praising "fearless leader"

we have another condemning "that sellout". Neither is completely accurate. He's certainly the best president of my lifetime and he's also not nearly as good as I had hoped. Neither was Bill Clinton. Life goes oqn.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

17. My point is, let's move away from the labeling and discuss the substance. nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

77. By moving away from labeling, you mean we get to lose terminology like "Teenbeat Obama"?

I would have taken you seriously, had you not chosen to throw in the gratuitous insult at the end. How is that any different from calling people who support the POTUS "Obamabots" or "apologists"? But hey, you got a few backslaps from those who do nothing but complain, your "Teen Obama" went over quite well with this subset, so I guess you get an "E" for effort. How substantive.
:eyes:

[digidigido]

157. in 100 days, with nothing major passed, and having given trillions to the banks

he is the best president of your lifetime? How old are you?

[yurbud]

14. to fix that here, some people at the top publicly needd to acknowledge a problem: shills

until they do we will be comatose. Real discussion seem like honest differences of opinion, and sometimes cheerleading without cheerfollowing.

More vexing is when you try to discuss instead of cheerleading, they tell you to shut up.

[TwilightZone]

15. And you think that making statements like "Teenbeat Obama" is going to help?

If we continue to use adolescent putdowns to summarily dismiss those who have the nerve to support a Democratic president on a Democratic website, we should not be surprised when they do not take to it kindly.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

23. Well, let's use your post as a case in point.

I used the metaphor "Teenbeat Obama" because Teenbeat is a fan magazine that many are familiar with. Fan magazines usually enthusiastically promote the positive and ignore the negative of any celeb/person they are promoting. Promoting. That's what they do. They promote a person. They accentuate the positive and ignore the negatives.

I'm not "summarily dismissing those who have the nerve to support a Democratic president on a Democratic website". My question might be restated as : Are we Obama Underground or Democratic Underground?

[TwilightZone]

35. You just don't see it, do you?

And that is part of the problem. You simply do not see that you are belittling and dismissing a segment of DU simply by claiming that DU is headed to "Teenbeat" territory. The people who don't agree with you are starry-eyed kids, nothing more.

But, hey, Obama supporters have been promoted from 'Obamabots' and 'worshippers' to teenyboppers, so that's an improvement. I think.

By the way, no one on this website has ever suggested that we should accept everything that Obama does without question. No one.

[salguine]

78. "...no one on this website has ever suggested that we should accept

everything that Obama does without question. No one"!? Are you kidding? I've seen TONS of people on this site who become furious at anyone who takes exception to ANYTHING Obama does!

[TwilightZone]

217. Example, please.

Please provide a thread, any thread, where someone on DU said that Obama is not to be questioned in any way, shape, or form.

And nothing intended as sarcasm, please. I've seen several people use it as a sarcastic response to threads like the OP.

[Grinchie]

189. If the shoe fits...

[defendandprotect]

223. Come on . . . it's shorthand for explaining what he is seeing -- and I think quite appropo . . .

[bjobotts]

245. I agree. We don't want a "My Obama right or wrong" mentality or we deal with personalities

[bjobotts]

246. rather than policies. You can like Obama and still criticize his actions

[annabanana]

95. shiny strawman

No one is saying "don't support Obama".. Just saying we can disagree with him when we think he's wrong.

[digidigido]

161. It's a very appropriate metaphor. It refers to mindless support. Not all of the things

President Obama does deserve the kind of cheerleading it gets. That is the point the Op is
trying to make. There was mindless support of Bush by repubs. The Op is asking for
reasoned thought, and criticism when it's appropriate

[midnight]

16. A gentle reminder of the importance of being able to

discuss important issues no matter how much we enjoy this current President.

[Muttocracy]

19. I wish things were split into more fora

I know things are interconnected, but then there could be cross-posts. Why isn't there a foreign policy forum? What if people used the Labor forum to discuss EFCA? Etc. GD and GDP (whose split is still unclear) end up full of everything from photo threads of the Pres to war and peace to local politics.

[billyoc]

20. Picture thread, STAT!

[rwheeler31]

21. What you say is true,

We do get tired some times, can we get a break?

[tnlefty]

25. I beg to differ.

Primaires have a tendency to get out of control here, the last two were ugly. The last one was more than ugly. My oldest son described it as an open sewer within a war zone. The level of snark, namecalling, etc. was escalated to a level I hadn't witnessed before, and the mods, etc., allowed it to go on. It carries over to this day.

It's not my house, I'll admit, but I expect better in my house.

I would rethink your use of "Teenbeat Obama" or you won't get the policy discussion that you want to have. :hug: And there are many areas where I disagree with him, too.

[1]

26. how is this a "turning point?" what has changed?

and about this whole "Obama himself has said "Make me."

that is just horsecrap. president obama doesn't need a poll or the "public opinion" to make his decisions.

president obama is the fucking president of the united states.

he has his own mind. he will do what he will do. based on his vision for america. he is the president.



is it your contention that his actions will only come about if we "make him do it?"

horsecrap.


the man has just become the president of the united states. he is now privy to information that you can't possible understand. he now has a responsibility you or i will never in our lifes know.

president obama does not live his life to capture the hearts and minds of this message board. he has greater issues to concern himself with.

think about that before you post next...

[lostnotforgotten]

31. Are You Asserting That DUers Have A Compromised Intellect And We Should Give Obama A Pass?

eom

[1]

32. nope...

i am asserting that the president of the united states has a bit more knowledge AND INFORMATION about things than the average poster here and perhaps we should cut him some slack.

if that president proves unworthy of our trust after, oh i don't know, MAYBE A MONTH OR TWO IN OFFICE!!!

then perhaps we should start jumping in his shit.

just not before.

mmmkkk?



eta: the "AND INFORMATION" part. i'm sure that the information part was a shock to president obama. i'm sure it was...

[Turborama]

51. Re your eta

Do you remember the look on his face when he had his 1st press conference? He seemed like a completely different man, like someone who had just had the weight of the world put on his shoulders...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9VcS-EF7T0



(edited to fix typo)

[1]

59. i cannot imagine why anyone would seek the office...

i will support our president in every way. i will support every decision he makes.

but i would never, ever, want the job.

God bless president obama...

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

61. You will support every decison he makes before he makes it?

Are you serious? OMG.

[1]

65. hummm... no. but what i will do is try to understand why he makes his decisions...

instead of immediately jumping in his shit for his decisions, because i believe he has a greater understanding about those decisions than we do.

dude has information that none of us here has.

if president obama decides upon something that none of us fully understand, then i am going to step back and trust that he knows something i do not know about the situation.

i am going to trust my president. i am going to trust president obama. this guy is privy to information that no one can even guess at here.



if y'all think that you know more than the president of the united states, then that is your prerogative.

i trust president obama.

fuck me...

[LaydeeBug]

125. but the law is the law. Turning a blind eye to it's enforcement is a travesty.

and we should say so.

[Generic Other]

282. I never let up on Bush for 8 years

I will build the monuments to unsung heroes after they have danced their deeds not before.

[Quantess]

82. ...

...:puke:

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

98. It depends, are you cute?

besides, I can't anyway - I'm married now...!

[closeupready]

201. When are you releasing your next single, Britney?

n/t

[defendandprotect]

224. That may be true . . . tho many seem to want it -- presumably for the wrong reasons . . .

however, I'd also comment that your following your future and unconditional support

for Obama's "every decision he makes" with "God bless president obama..." --

is as chilling IMO as those who thought that W was "god sent" --

and even worse, Bush's believing it!!!

You'll recall, I'm sure, W telling us that he spoke with "god" who told him to attack

Afghanistan and then "god" told him to attack Iraq!!!

[rwheeler31]

56. Do you want another Imperil P resident?

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. I guess you voted for a LEADER, I voted for a President

when talking of leaders, sure don't question them.

Presidents are to be called to the carpet by their CITIZENS.

Please kindly learn the difference, and if you choose to follow a leader, fine by me... it is easier too,

[Captain Hilts]

254. As you said, some here are citizens, others are subjects. nt

[Sebastian Doyle]

81. Horsecrap indeed.

The fucking president of the united states is "privy to information", but that doesn't mean it's always a good thing.

Most obvious example: Chimpy's "bad intelligence". Of course that presumes Chimpy had any credibility to begin with, and I don't. But it is an example of how even the President can be seriously misinformed, depending on the sources of information.

More applicable example.... Who the FUCK told him to choose an economic team made up of whores, tools, and shills like Geithner, Summers, and the rest of that crowd.

If that's the kind of info the President is getting, then we do indeed have a huge problem here. And a bigger one still if the cheerleading squad truly believes it's a GOOD thing that information reaching the President only comes through a "filter" of Wall Street, AIPAC, or other interests that are completely contrary to that of the American people.

And "make me do it" was HIS words, by the way. I plan on holding him to that, however I can.

[1]

87. heh... then i guess y'all will never be satisfied. what kind of leader are you looking for???

[Photovoltaic]

97. Please, for the love of God,

CAPITALIZE! It's obvious you treat your common sense about politicians with the same favor as you do the shift key.

[kenfrequed]

286. Feh

It's clear he's texting it in.

[Photovoltaic]

94. Bull fucking shit

We elected him. We'll toss him on his ass next chance we get if he chooses not to represent us. the mess of putrescent filth that you just posted is the way totalitarian states with joke facades of democracy think about their elected officials. Obama represents US, we the people of the United Fucking States of America. (UFSA, you heard it from me first)

There's that old quote from FDR. "I want to do it. You want me to do it. Now make me do it."

[QC]

105. I'm suddenly thinking of North Korea here.

Just trust The Leader!

[Captain Hilts]

252. Some on DU are citizens, others are subjects. nt

[QC]

263. And some are just fans. n/t

[mikehiggins]

Now THAT is just silly

The old "the President knows" argument is bogus, which everyone should know after the last couple of decades.

Is torture really something that happens because "the President knows" stuff we don't?

How much of what "the President knows" has turned out to be wrong since Ronnie Raygun took over?

A whole lot? A real whole lot? You got it.

We have to speak up when O goes wrong, or we have to accept the claim that he was born on Krypton and sent here by his father, Jor-El, to save the planet. Hey, even he gets a chuckle out of that one.

We've entered a world of real politics in which we have to stand up and speak up for what we beleive if we want to be heard. The difference is that, so far, it looks like we will be listened to if we are persistent and loud enough.

That is enough for me to support the guy.

Best President since Truman, IMHO.

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

122. There you go again...

...the use of profanity in posts reminds many of us of an adolescent, someone that would buy Teenbeat magazine.

[donco6]

158. Uh . . . WTF?

You've just described a dictator who is unanswerable to the electorate. That's a big, fat NO THANKS from me.

[LiberalLovinLug]

178. News Flash ...... Obama is a POLITICIAN

He's not a king or a god.

He DOES need voters to "make" him. He does need public opinion with him to move on things like Universal Medicare. He also needs news corps to treat him fairly, and can you imagine the field day the press would have if a President simply did whatever the hell he wanted, laws and congress be damned? (OOOPS bad example) I should edit that sentence to "if a Democratic President". Sad but true. The most criminally minded, anti constitution gang of law breakers can get away with ANYTHING (mass murder, extreme incompetence, politicizing AG office, treasonous outing, etc etc...) because they are right wing, you know, the family values party.

The right can go as extreme to their side as they want, without much press backlash. But face facts, if Obama decided to demand all health insurance companies be disbanded, all troops home NOW, gay marriage support, and stricter gun control laws, not only would Beck, Hannity, Limpballs, Savage and Coulter start foaming at the mouth, but all those on CNN, and even MSNBC. Even Maddow and Olbermann would be ducking from the onslaught.

The only way any left of center policies (ie policies for the average person) get passed is if the public sentiment is strong enough to leap frog that corporate machine of the rightwing ownership of corporations and media. Bill Clinton was re-elected with no help from the MSM thats for darn sure.

Those "greater issues to concern himself with", are OUR issues. He cannot push ahead without thoughtful, and sometimes loud, criticism.

[Captain Hilts]

179. People don't want to hear that. He's so much more than a politician to many here.

They take criticism of his policies very, very personally.

[Grinchie]

190. Yep, like appeasing Healthcare Industry Titans and the Federal Reserve

Along with Bailing out the Banks and continuing the overall fraud of the American Economy.

Yep, that's a pretty full plate.

[flyarm]

199. reply to 1..I thought we were the employer of the President..are we not?

to quote 1:
"that is just horsecrap. president obama doesn't need a poll or the "public opinion" to make his decisions.

president obama is the fucking president of the united states.

he has his own mind. he will do what he will do. based on his vision for america. he is the president."

Fly's reply..

see that constitution begs you a differ..it damn well does matter what our "opinion " is..it sure as shit does..see that constitution says "we the people " are in charge..we may have allowed someone to be of service to us and sleep in our white house..but we do not abdicate our government to anyone!!

And if the president no matter who it is does not heed our public opinion..then he is renegging on his oath of office to defend and protect the constitution ..and it is "we the people " who are the bosses!! got that??

and as for vision..it sould be the American people's vision..not the presidents vision that should be first and formost!!
somehow me thinks you have made Obama a dictator instead of the leader of the free people of the United States of America...a Republic democracy.

[defendandprotect]

225. How long is it going to take for some here to understand what you're saying???

In fact, they seem to be avoiding understand a "people's" government and the

citizen's responsibility.

We elected the Democratic Party -- and the guy running for president as head of the party --

not a King!

[1]

243. hey, don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message...

i love the "we the people" argument. it is folksy and quaint. and not at all true.

we the people elect a president and representatives. and then they are in charge. not we, the people.

they make the decisions. not we, the people.

now... if they fuck up? break laws or whatever? then there is a manner in place to get them out of power and replace them. but then that is pretty much up to them as a body. not we, the people.

don't kid yourself about who is in charge and who makes the decisions.

and don't hate me because i reveal this and shatter your dreams about we, the people...

[Name removed]

267. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flyarm]

268. The messesnger needs a good history book! eom

[JohnnyLib2]

27. A vote for the former.

K & R

[babylonsister]

29. Teenbeat? Please.

You're demeaning people like me, and you, who have been trying to make valid points, educate, etc.

It's a process, I've concluded, and this doesn't help.

[Bluebear]

55. Look at O-man's dreamy abs! And his tuna fish sandwich recipe!~~~

Oh, and if he says he doesn't want to release the photos, I trust him, he is just playing chess!!~~

===

My dearest BS, please don't tell me that you haven't seen that here!

[babylonsister]

64. My dear friend, I've seen a lot on DU, and

I also have my criticisms.

I applaud Obama for changing his mind on the photos. Sorry if you don't. I also applaud a man who has the balls to do so, knowing everyone will revolt.

Jeeze, he's pissing people off. What candidate wouldn't? What person wouldn't? This man is just a man, doing the best he can.

I have criticized, but I know this to be a fact.

And fwiw, here's a story that got no traction. Did you see it? Did I post it in the wrong place? Why isn't this valid?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5668921&mesg_id=5668921

[defendandprotect]

226. Therefore, any time a president "has the balls" to change his mind and,

especially if it brings criticism, the decision is the correct one -- ??????

How many times did you agree with Bush's decisions?

[Captain Hilts]

280. I have defended his changing his mind on this - and his reason for doing so.

I know it had to be a tough call for him.

[salguine]

57. Exactly—It's been more "Tiger Beat" than "Teenbeat". I have pre-teen daughters, so I know.

[merh]

30. Do you really expect honest debate or the discussion of policy

when you include a slam in your query?

or we will become Teenbeat Obama

People can discuss policy, can debate the issues and can find fault with Obama and can still like the man and be excited that he is the president.

Would it be fair for me to accuse you of having ODS simply because you made the Teenbeat reference?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

37. I stand by my use of Teenbeat. It's a metaphor

I make no apology for my use of it and it stands in my Op exactly as I meant it to : An all positive slant to a public figure/celeb.

If you can think of a better comparison/metaphor, be my guest. I couldn't. It says exactly what I meant to convey.

What is ODS? I can guess, but go ahead and be specific.

[merh]

39. ODS is Obama Derangement Syndrome

You know, there are folks that like to slam Obama just because he is Obama.

If you think that DU has been comprised of "an all postive slant to a public figure/celeb", then you haven't been reading the DU I've been reading. And do you honestly think it is fair to compare those who support Obama to "teens" is fair?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

42. I've been here since Kerry lost and have almost 7000 posts and have been a lifelong Democrat

So my record is out there for anyone who wants to investigate.

I was an extremely enthusiastic SUPPORTER of Obama after Edwards (thank God) dropped out and throughout the GE

I voted for Obama because of the positions he stated in the primaries and then in the GE.

Anthing negative I have ever posted about President Obama is about a POLICY or position he has taken, particularly if it is one that has flown in the face of his election stances.

I can't believe that anyone could accuse me of having Obama Derangement Syndrome? !

And that is EXACTLY THE POINT I was making in my OP!

[TwilightZone]

43. mehr didn't accuse you of having ODS.

In fact, mehr quite specifically asked if accusing you of having it would be fair.

Obviously, you don't believe it would be.

I think there was a point being made by that statement, hmm?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

47. Oh whatever. It's exactly this stupid high school debating team "gotcha"

stuff that negates there being any point to discussions at all.

Have fun high- fiving each other.

[TwilightZone]

49. My goodness, just try reading what was actually written for a change.

"Would it be fair for me to accuse you of having ODS simply because you made the Teenbeat reference?"

Where is the accusation? Here's a clue: THERE ISN'T ONE.

First, you claim not to understand how you ARE insulting people, when you clearly are. Then, you claim that someone else is insulting YOU when that was quite certainly not the case.

Oh, and to make it even more hilarious, then you claim that we're all ganging up on you.

I'm no longer surprised that you don't get it. It's obviously intentional. And you wonder why discussion is impossible on DU?

[Bluerthanblue]

70. maybe if you consider that the 'slur' in your title is as off-putting as

the mention of Obama Derangement Syndrome-you might see the point that Merh and others have made on here.

Your OP has merit- the title takes away much of the impact of your words.

Think about that please?

:shrug:

[cali]

100. "oh whatever" is a dishonest, weasly response

your OP is premised on a complete falsehood- that we're in danger of becoming a cheerleading site for Obama. If that's true, how come there are far more posts critical of Obama than supportive of him?

There's nothing more ridiculous than a rant based on a demonstrably false premise. duh.

[Fire1]

196. And there are a great number of those, too.

[merh]

46. I didn't say you suffered from it.

I asked you the question "Would it be fair for me to accuse you of having ODS simply because you made the Teenbeat reference?"

I think it is wrong that you equate those who support Obama to teens and I don't think you want to discuss policy as much as you want to mock those who support Obama. If you wanted to discuss policy you would simply post the topic and carry on the discussion. You would ignore those posts that were not on the topic but that were made to belittle you or others that find fault with Obama.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

50. Yes, yes, I confess. My goal is to mock those who support Obama

And I have no interest at all in policy.

[Bluerthanblue]

74. my youngest is now 16-

and your last few replies sound strangely familiar.

Maybe we're all just tired and overwhelmed.

:shrug:

nite

[Kickin_Donkey]

90. That is so asinine ...

I tend to be a strong critic (from the left) of Obama, and I can see that "Teenbeat Obama" is a slam.

Don't act like you want mature discussion, then get in an insult and deny that it's a slam. It's intellectually dishonest.

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

146. Not a slam, but a wake up call...

... some of us have been here for years and years and just in the past year or so the DU has become a board full of infantile and profanity laced posts. If you want to discuss with the adults, then act and post like one. The age stated on your drivers license is no proof that you are an adult.

[Mythsaje]

164. Hearing people gripe about profanity makes me want to jump up and down

and shout all the "dirty" words I know.

I'm with George Carlin on this subject. They won't blacken your eyeballs or make your ears fall off. They're just words and they have only the power you give them.

[RufusTFirefly]

133. Hey. Let's not forget. It's all about Teenbeat.

Amazing how some people here are latching on to that to focus all their vitriol on you, Phoebe, rather than addressing the actual issue you are bringing up.



Waaah!! Democracy hurts my feewings!

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our second quarter 2009 fund drive.
Donate and you'll be automatically entered into our daily contest.
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[Darth_Kitten]

121. Grovelbot is so dreamy..........

he gives out prizes, too. :evilgrin:

[rpannier]

213. If Gravelbot wasn't giving away prizes people like you would turn on him in an instant

Unlike me...Gravelbots the robot for me.

[Vickers]

34. Sorry, I didn't make it past "Teenbeat Obama"

I'm sure plenty of dumbassedness followed, but I'm not interested enough after that fuckknobbery.

:hi:

[TwilightZone]

36. I continued out of morbid curiosity.

[blogslut]

48. +1

n/t

[EFerrari]

71. Progress, not perfection.

:)

[jefferson_dem]

73. No shit.

I never thought I would see a Democratic president slammed so much here, for such lame reasons (in the grand scheme of things), only to have the slammers whine about how they're not able to do their slammin'. Then I remembered...this is the *DemocraticUnderground*. Go figure.

[Tarheel_Dem]

80. Thank you Vickers! Wish I could recommend your post.

These threads keep cropping up, as if someone is stifling their opinions. I think their premise is they should be able to post slamming op's ad nauseum, but those of us who support the president should just go away. Is their ultimate goal an echo chamber? Apparently, anything and anyone who still supports the president are reduced to pimply faced, googly eyed, adolescent worshippers.

It's so good to know that the adults, like Phoebe L (who make childish insults), are in charge of the direction of the party.

[Number23]

85. "fuckknobbery"

Wow. I absolutely must IMMEDIATELY put myself in a situation where I can use that word. That's the coolest thing I've seen all week.

[Faygo Kid]

172. I have to agree. That was unnecessary.

After 8 years of Bush/Cheney, and the growing evidence that they were even more insane than we feared, I didn't need that.

[SidDithers]

212. Best post in this thread...nt

Sid

[cherish44]

44. There are those who genuinely agree with Obama

And they have every right not to be called condesending names and being told they're just like Bush supporters. I love a good policy discussion, it's the sarcastic put downs I see (on both sides) of disagreeing opinions that have really turned me off GD and PGD lately.

[Mythsaje]

168. Hey--I'm happy to stand in the front and wave the flag.

Anyone who dares call me a "bush supporter" can go look at my Journal. I'm not nice to quisling Dems, but I was a hell of a lot harder on Bushco et al.

It's like this old joke. This couple had this kid and he never spoke. Never uttered a sound. Every day he'd get up and come downstairs and eat breakfast without saying a word. They had him tested for all sorts of things, but everything seemed okay. He just didn't talk. Until one day he came down, took a bite of his oatmeal, and said "This is cold."
His parents were overjoyed. "You can talk! Why didn't you say anything before now?"
"Until now," he replied, "everything was fine."

Well, everything's not fine and I'm loathe to pretend it is.

[Missy Vixen]

45. I'm all for this

I hardly think that President Obama sees himself as infallible. Plus, to remain silent on things we would have ripped the opposition for is ridiculous at best, and the worst sort of partisanship.

Do we want change, or do we want a fan club?

[frustrated_lefty]

52. Do you really think

General Discussion is the place to make an impact?

Do you really think some monumental turning point has been passed?

This forum is entertaining, even informative at times. General Discussion, though, is just not the place to make an impact. Consider an issue forum. Sorry to be a party-pooper, but I hate to see productive energy wasted.

[nini]

53. You should look up the meaning of 'irony'

and apply it to your Teenbeat Obama comment.

Get over yourself.

[Bluebear]

54. "get over yourself" ...what brought that on?

What is ironic here?

[nini]

163. I'm not the one who is lecturing regarding the quality of dialog here

then throw out a comment like 'teenbeat' meant to demean some here. My point is the OP blew her whole argument out of the water with that snark.

[cboy4]

58. Too late. It became Teenbrat, I mean Teenbeat Obama

during the primaries.

It sure did.

[Bluebear]

60. I called it "16" at the time.

But that's just my age showing.

[cboy4]

62. That one too

[rwheeler31]

63. I think we are good.

We do not a gree on nothin g.

[LeftyMom]

66. But it's ever so much easier and more fun to have pinup threads and talk about Michelle's dresses or

Sasha and Malia's swingset, or the puppy. Politics isn't always fun. Celebrity gossip is fun.

This is one of the downsides of not having a monarchy. In countries that do people who want to obsess on that sort of crap have an outlet, and those who want to actually discuss issues have the government.

[CakeGrrl]

89. A condescending "children don't want to eat their vegetables" remark

The resentment of people who refuse to be spitting mad at Obama runs deep.

I'll say again, those photo threads are seriously chapping some asses and it's interesting to see the bile come out over stuff like that.

People do not interrupt a thread that was opened to rail about Obama enabling the Bush cabal with "But he's so dreamy!". They just don't. You have to visit a thread that's clearly about the things for which you have so much disdain, and you really don't have to do it if it displeases you.

But whenever someone who wants everyone else to understand and probably subscribe to their anger at/disappointment with/general dislike for Obama jumps on their OP soapbox, they cannot help throwing in the remarks to diminish and try to shame anyone who manages to continue to enjoy watching the president or his family.

I agree with a poster up above: President Obama is privy to information we don't have and that HE didn't have until he became President.

This isn't a Harrison Ford movie. He can't go off making bravado speeches about the bad guys' day being over and frog-marching them off to face the consequences just like that.

Besides every other issue that he isn't resolving quickly enough to suit anyone, there's this. The people who gave the OK to put torture in motion aren't just going to go quietly, and who knows what threats they are capable of making if someone gets too close to holding them accountable?

He has a 4-year term unless some outraged citizens on the left want to mount a grassroots effort to help the terminally hostile Republican opposition figure out a way to kick him out sooner. Personally, I'll see where things stand at his midterm, and if something so compels me, I'll send feedback to Whitehouse.gov.

[LeftyMom]

152. I don't read those threads.

Actually, I don't read GD:P at all because of nonsense like that. But I can think those things are stupid without participating.

As for the "Obama knows things we don't" argument, so did Bush. Nixon had a secret plan to end the Vietnam war. This does not eliminate criticism, nor should it.

[Djinn]

67. well said

if people really think there's a horde of freepers here or evil magic pony wanting lefties are ruining the level of debate then call people on it. NOT just by calling them freepers (or worse cowardly insinuating it without having the balls to come right out and say it) or telling them they're just "haters" (a pathetic childish retort that belongs in the playground) but by refuting their arguments.

[freddie mertz]

134. Magic ponies?

That is simply Naz-tastic!


O8) :puke: :hi: :thumbsup: :fistbump: :yourock: :rofl: :patriot:

[omega minimo]

69. Too many self righteous aholes want to be right, fight a faux "left," ignore history, play games,

rather than engage each other and opportunities that are new and unfamiliar.

It seems too many have had no experience or vision of what it means to get along -- only what it means to go along to get along.

Sad.

Example of the damage that's been done over the past 3 decades. And some are even blind to how bad the damage is, how pervasive the divisions are; how many bad habits have to be unlearned.

If all they know is battling the hatemongers and projecting their confusion as belligerence, as a protection against three decades of crazymaking, they have no clue about how to proceed, how to engage each other and those new opportunities.

And those are the ones who are actually waking up !!!!!!!!!!!!! :wow: :spray:

[ProgressIn2008]

72. Good points. And it's completely irrelevant if Obama wants us to do it - his opinion doesn't matter

We do it because we're citizen and this is what we have to do. What the person holding the office of POTUS wants or doesn't want doesn't matter -- Obama doesn't get to decide our civic action and it's not him saying "make me" (whether or not he means it) that gives us the signal to do it.

We do it because it's what we have to do.

[bluedawg12]

79. In a democracy the leaders follow the will of the people, not the other way around.

[leftstreet]

76. K&R

[Occam Bandage]

84. I should love discussion of policy rooted in fact and tempered by rationality.

If you see any, please let me know.

[Norrin Radd]

91. I hope civility is included in your rationality.

[Jim Sagle]

86. Fuckin' A.

:thumbsup:

[cali]

88. your post is funny. there are far more threads critical of Obama

posted here than in praise of him, and here you are seriously warning that we're in danger of becoming sychophants. I agree that criticism is vital, but to think that we're in danger of not being sufficiently critical is so out of touch with the reality of things, that it's mind boggling.

[riverdeep]

92. If you think we were able to discuss policy during the primaries,

you're crazy. The Hillary v. Obama (PUMA's v. Obamabots in parlance) nastiness was INSANE. Especially in GDP. This is just a minor feeding frenzy (principles v. pragmatism) that will die out, and soon something else will come along.

[Muttocracy]

221. yeah, regardless of where we are now, policy discussion was not the strong suit then. nt

[skepticscott]

93. What I wish people would ask themselves

and continue to ask themselves on a regular basis is, what things have Barack Obama and his administration fought hard for and what things have they fought hard against? Not just what has been talked about in flowery and elevated language, or what has been accomplished with the stroke of a pen, but what things have real political effort and capital been expended on.

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. "Teenbeat Obama"!

:rofl:

That's brilliant. And so true.

[QC]

106. I dunno. Sometimes this place makes Teenbeat look like the New York Review of Books. n/t

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[donco6]

156. No kidding. eom

[baldguy]

102. Dissent is necessary

But people who criticize Obama here too often take Rove's Talking Point Of The Day™ and endlessly bash others over the head with it.

[mdmc]

103. 1. Policy 2. Politics

The thing is - we have the policy down. We can really talk about it w.o drama.

Were this board has trouble, imho, is when politics are discussed - how do we get our policy through the political process.

[tomp]

104. you mean policies like whether or not to impeach bush...

...that pelosi personally veoted. i remember that disscussion, among others, going really well here.

what is it with the revisionism about du? it has always been contentious here. as long as people have disagreements it will be.

your post is full of subjectivisms. "our opponents" ? who are they. right now, obama is my opponent BECAUSE of his policies. but the democratic party believers can't see the harm he's doing.

"we were able to discuss policies" as long as we didn't criticize democratic party leadership. as soon as that happened a fight developed. if you don't see that, you're blind.

the "inconsequential" is in the eye of the beholder. i do NOT care what kind of dog the obama's get. i do care about a lot of things that many du'ers tell me i should not. opinion is opinion. you seem to think that "policy" is some objective entity and if we just get enough facts and figures we will all agree. it's not. policy comes from political philosophy.

obama can say "make me" all he wants. it will always be a stupid thing to say. i don't want a leader who needs to have million people marching at his doorstep to get it right. i want a leader who can rally a million people to his doorstep to fight with him. "make me" is an excuse for bad behavior.

[ColesCountyDem]

107. Freepers and 'wedge issue' posters aside, the problem is that many have become habituated to...

... 'slash-and-burn' posting over the past 8 years. It was so easy to do during the Bush administration, because Bush/Cheney represented the antithesis of virtually everything we liberals, progressives and true moderates believe. Now, we have a moderately left-of-center President and Congress, and when they make a decision or take a policy stance that is at odds with our own personal social, economic or political stance, many here react in exactly the same way they did during the Bush/Cheney cabal's tenure. The problem is not so much that we cannot defend President Obama or our Congressional leadership as it is that we are unnecessarily and unhelpfully ( is that a proper word? ) being put into a position where we MUST defend them.

We must begin to recover from our collective post-traumatic stress and regain our political equilibrium and genuine sense of decency and fair play that sets our party apart from the Republicans. It will be harder for some than it will be for others, but we MUST DO IT! We must also accept that both fair criticism and spirited defense of our fellow Democrats are the hallmarks of rational debate; our party has a far broader base than does the Republican party, so internal disagreement is inevitable. It should be embraced, rather than stifled.

In closing, I would ask ALL posters here to make a conscious effort to be civil, logical and RESPECTFUL in your posts: stick to the facts supporting your argument, whether it be critical, supportive or just genuinely 'not sure/need more information/wait and see' .

I'll go don my flame-retardant underwear now....

;)

[SecularMotion]

109. Or we can stop the wedge politics of

dividing every issue into 2 sides that prevents honest discussion and reaching a consensus.

[mgcgulfcoast]

110. lets have open debate

but lets all be friends afterward.

[JVS]

111. roflmao

[Wetzelbill]

169. that one has to be a DUzy

:)

[pmorlan1]

112. Thanks for an excellent diary

I think it's critical that we are free to discuss policy. Obama is being advised by political people who are interested in short term gain that will make them look good. It's up to us to shout loudly when we think Obama is being hoodwinked by these people. When Obama adopts the very policies that we criticized when Bush was in power should tell everyone that he's on the wrong track. If we ignore bad policies just because Obama is the one embracing them then we are no better that the Bush zealots who cheered Bush on. Liz Cheney was on This Week today using Obama as a defense for Cheney's view because some of the policies Obama has adopted are Cheney policies and sadly some here at DU just don't get it. Obama is legitimizing what Bush & Cheney did and he is handing the Bush/Cheney supporters ammunition to use against those of us who never want to see those policies used again. Obama is doing more to rehabilitate the image of Bush and Cheney than anyone in this country. And because all of Washington is lining up to prevent any kind of accountability on torture the message will be that torture is ok. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see Liz Cheney running for office and she is a full throated supporter of torture. We have to take our heads out of the sand and stop supporting wrong headed policies just because it's Obama who's using them.

[NNN0LHI]

113. How do we identify the Rethugs, NaderNuts and Ron Paul crazies from Dems on an anonymous web site?

Who mostly come here just to cause trouble?

This is a Democratic website. If the other nuts want a place to to criticize Dems let them start their own website.

Once we begin letting any troublemaker post whatever they they want here is when I leave.

Don

[JohnnyLib2]

115. Looks like the recs speak louder than the replies.

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNN0LHI]

127. Someone could post here that Nader farted without shitting his pants and it would get a 100 recs

What would that prove?

Don

[Moochy]

129. That We Surround You

/makes googly glenn beck eyes at NNN0LHI

[JohnnyLib2]

148. Hard to know. I was thinking about more readers than writers here.

I missed whatever the deleted comment was.

Never dull here.....

[Usrename]

117. Yep, you make a lot of sense.

Perhaps we could start a list of grievances, like we did for Bush/Cheney. Maybe that would help people understand the issues.

[dixiegrrrrl]

118. Yes. Amen to that. Thank you for the reminder of exactly what Obama said.

[AngryAmish]

119. I think Obama is awesome

[Captain Hilts]

272. Most of us here agree with that. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

120. Obama is a public servant. It is our responsibility to tell him how to serve us.

Even though there seems to be a lot of folks here who seem to feel that we're supposed to serve him and the government without objection or question.

[cali]

124. it's our responsibility to express what we believe is in our best interests

it is not his obligation to follow our direction. that would be mob rule. After all, polls show that a slight majority thinks torture is justifiable in certain circumstances. And there is no shortage, nor should there be, of threads criticizing Obama, thus the OP is built on sand.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

126. There is, however, an effort by some here, to mute criticism in the name of "support".

He is not obligated to follow our directions but it is our obligation that we keep him from following only his own direction. That would be dictatorship.

"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." - Thomas Paine

[cali]

128. sure, but so what? that's doomed to failure as is the attempt

shut up supporters. and no, it wouldn't be dictatorship if he only followed his own direction- a grave mistake, certainly, but not dictatorship. Making his own decisions is built right into the constitutional contract we put into place when we elected him.

[defendandprotect]

228. ...a very strong and continuing effort, I would add . . .!!!

[ErinBerin84]

123. DU is a place to discuss policy

But a whole lot of threads that have nothing to do with Obama "fandom" don't discuss policy either, so should they be on the chopping block? There are more critical threads than positive, and as long as the more frothy stuff doesn't seem to be affecting the mood in general (others may disagree), I really don't care. I don't really let stuff that other people write about bother me, I don't think there is a definite DU mood. I am against people trying to control what others discuss, in both respects.

[WilliamPitt]

130. I hate to break this to you...

...but this place is exactly exactly exactly the same as it has always been. The topics are different, the people are different, there are more of us now, but the problems we see on DU today are exactly the same ones that were present when I arrived (and became part of the problem) eight years ago.

The turning point is not on DU, but within yourself (and each of us in turn). Make of the place what you wish for yourself, but don't bother trying to preach the whole into what you believe to be proper behavior. I say this not as a scold, but as a warning. You will fail, you'll piss yourself off, you'll piss other people off, and the place will be exactly what it was before you started.

DU is a great and terrible place all at once. It's on you to make something of it for yourself. Don't try to make it into something else for everyone else. Trust me: it never, ever works.

[AspenRose]

249. .

:thumbsup:

[Individualist]

269. If anyone believes that,

"the same as it has always been", I have a great deal on a bridge in Brooklyn for them.

[stray cat]

131. Who is "WE" and do we all agree with everything "WE" demand?

[Butch350]

135. STFU and start discussing and stop WHINNING!

[BlooInBloo]

142. +1

[spiritual_gunfighter]

136. Great post

I find it ironic that we lambasted the freepers that marched in lockstep with Bush no matter what he did, when it is probable that most of them knew that what Bush was doing was wrong (maybe I am being too kind), but when Obama makes policy decisions that I disagree with and I voice such, I am called a closet freeper, someone who probably didn't support Obama anyway and not a true liberal. Funny that, I thought liberalism and being a Democrat was about principal not about personality. I don't see how at this point anyone can defend Obama on torture prosecutions, I think it's very obvious he has no intent of prosecuting anyone. You can believe this is one giant political chess move on his part, but I dont.

[cali]

138. so what?: people here are such tender little critters.

so what if you're challenged or criticized. This is a DISCUSSION board. And maybe there's a reason why every time you criticize Obama on policy you get criticized, because there are hundreds of posts everyday here criticizing Obama, and most don't get criticized. And sorry, not being ignorant of world history post-Nuremberg, I understand the odds against prosectution. Hope it will happen someday, but nope, didn't expect it in the admin immediately following bushco. Nor was I promised it.

In any case, YOU are making things all about personality with your attacks on people who don't agree with you by saying such crap as they aren't real liberals. More importantly, the OP is simply not hewing to the facts. There is far more criticism for Obama's policies here than there is cheerleading. That's not up for debate. It's a fact.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

140. You must not be talking to me

I said none of what you claim I said.

[Reterr]

139. DU just does not have the gravitas of TalkingPointsMemo or even DailyKos

and it never has had...

This place is kind of interesting to check in on once in a while, but at the end of the day, even during the Bush years, the kind of topics that get most traction here are things like "teen had sex with dead kitten" or something flamebaity regarding smokers, vegetarians etc. etc.

It has become even more tabloidy after the election possibly due to a surge in numbers. I got the most utility out of DU honestly before I actually registered and started posting or reading comments/recognizing user names etc. LBN and E&E (thanks to posters like hatrack and a few others) are DU's most valuable resources. And then there are a few posters here who do put together some legitimate good diaries. But by and large this place is teenbeat and I doubt it will ever change.

And the biggest cheerleaders for the dumbing down of this place are some of the rude curmudgeons who in their own estimation at least are the most mature pragmatists around. The funniest thing about DU's self-styled pragmatists is that barring a certain type of obnoxious tone I am not sure what makes these people the intellectual pragmatists they claim to be. They have been wrong about just about everything as far back as I can remember. It is amusing to remember how these same types were telling everyone a few years ago how there is no recession, no real financial clusterfuck coming down the pipeline etc.

I posted about that a few days ago here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8404087&mesg_id=8406219

I think we are supposed to assume they are intelligent realists because they keep spouting some empty party line.
"You don't get it child-it is way more complicated than you think" etc. etc. Ladling out braindead bullshit by the shovelful. These are some of the stupidest people you would find anywhere and they are as prone to groupthink within their own little group as anyone else, but if you keep repeating over and over again (and in fairness to them, they do spend a fuckload more time here than anyone else) that you are the pragmatic realist you will eventually gain some traction I suppose.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

147. I have always wondered why so few well-known Democratic/liberal blogs link to us

Some of the commentary here ranks with the very best out there.

[Norrin Radd]

256. Kos barred talk of election fraud and manipulation. That destroyed

much of his credibility. Now, as for comments on DailyKos -- they exactly resemble those here on DU.

[Iggo]

141. Sounds like YOU'RE at a turning point.

DU's the same as it ever was.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

155. I don't think DU's the same as it ever was. There's a learning curve with being in the majority

Now, it is OUR White House, OUR House and OUR Senate. There will be little or no cover if we don't handle well the power that the PEOPLE have given the Democrats to represent them.

And the discussions here have changed in that it was actually easier to comment/criticize/discuss as a party in the minority. I am having a personal disconnect due to the fact that some policies that I have always been vociferously against now appear to be being embraced by my Party and my Pres. I am still against the same policies, but now I am counseled that as a "good" Democrat I should accept and even defend them or simply accept as a given that my President is much, much smarter than I am and I should be grateful because McCain would have been so much worse. So yes, I am struggling with that.

I was told by a poster that I greatly respect that my posts about healthcare were constantly "negative". There's a lot to be negative about right now as regards healthcare, if it's something you care very deeply about as I do. I cannot find a way to be "positive" or upbeat in my posting on that matter. Is my opinion about the way that things are going ( no single payer seat at the table, Schumer gutting the public option, a 1.5 decrease in the increase being called a watershed, etc) constructive or destructive criticism? I have been called insane, negative, frothing, rabid, Debbie Downer, etc. I can honestly say that I don't believe that a single thing I have ever posted qualified itself for that type of response.

I am taking a lot of heat for my Teenbeat characterization. I STILL think that the cumulative effect of overly enthusiastic Democratic boosterism without regard to facts/policies/ reversal of campaign positions is bad for this site and bad for Democrats in general. I was talking about the overall personality of this place and not individuals, although I'm sure many won't accept that. And yes, I get that it's Democratic Underground and possibly there will come a point when I voluntarily exclude myself from any further posting.

[Mythsaje]

170. Frustrating, isn't it?

It's almost like the police buying a burglary ring a nice fleet of shiny new trucks to make robbing our houses even easier.

[QC]

182. How do you know it's the "same as it ever was"?

You've not even been here two years.

[Iggo]

238. Oh I've not?

Hey1 You're right!

You win.

[Politicalboi]

143. Obama is just so darn

Cuuuuuuuute! LOL!

[Maat]

144. In addition to what you have discussed,

the most valuable thing for me is when people post their unique personal experiences with, say, healthcare, or the pertinent issue being discussed. Collectively, that sheds a whole lot of light on the subject.

[twitomy]

145. Remember the phrase popular during the Shrub years?:

"Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism"

[SlingBlade]

149. I don't think there has been that much of a problem

discussing POLICY !

It's when the "Discussion" gets personal and aggressive that has been the problem.

Policy, Stated truthfully, is free game, Regardless of who that may be

:kick:

[dionysus]

150. okay, newsflash: there are more threads on DU critical of the president then there are lavishing

praise.

so i don't think you have a valid argument.

:shrug:

[LynneSin]

151. I don't mind debating the issues when there is reasoning involved

but this mentality of "Obama hasn't done what he promised to do" bullcrap is just that. The guy has been in office for 100 days (give or take). I don't expect him to live up to all his campaign promises in those 100 days. Heck I'd be happy if he got most of them done within the first term.

Obama was given a country that was no on a positive path so his #1 focus MUST BE THE ECONOMY. So yeah, some of our pet causes may be overlooked until we get this economy heading the right direction.

Patience- is that too much to ask from anyone?

[JerseygirlCT]

153. I agree, Lynne

I'm still willing to trust that he's got a whole bunch of those other issues in sight and in mind. But he was handed the hugest pile of steaming crap imaginable. It's going to take a while just to steer us around and past that first.

[LynneSin]

165. we as liberals will fight for those causes we feel important but...

the general public might not be as in sync with some of those. If Obama strays from the Economy, something that is key #1 in everyone's mind then he will start losing support and it'll be harder for him to get some of these other things done.

[maryf]

154. K&R Where are some folks?

Some of those who discussed dissent courteously without ad hominem attacks seem not to have posted of late on search, but they are still listed? Two Americas is one...Orwellian_Ghost has been missing for weeks...they were two who really questioned Obama, but always were reasonable, IMO, maybe not others here. I actually pm'd some folks who always answer me, and no answer? Thanks for posting this, and yes, Make him!! speak out about issues, like single payer health care, torture, etc. and make him respond!! We all together are much more powerful than any interest group...

[dotymed]

159. I recently joined D.U.

If this is, or becomes,"TEEN BEAT OBAMA", I am outta
here. I voted for Obama and worked to get him elected, after
Kucinich left the race. I am not happy with many of his
decisions. In fact,They seem Republican-Lite to me. I feel we
must demand and protest for, a much more Progressive agenda.
An agenda much closer to the one promised by the uncompromised
Obama, early in his career. If this turns into a cheerleading
site, I am not interested. He's better than Bush but not by a
whole lot...

[jazzjunkysue]

160. If this is only an Obama support group, why come here?

I think he can take some intelligent, informed criticism.

[anonymous171]

162. That my friend, is called a Straw Man. nt

[Wetzelbill]

166. I prefer Maxim Obama nt

[Muttocracy]

222. dang! I think I already nominated a DUzy for this week

:hi:

[Wetzelbill]

237. It's alright

I'm too edgy for the DUzy's nowadays. All great artists go a little wacky at some point. All I need is my own Yoko and I am there.

[varelse]

167. I see no evidence that DU is in danger of becoming "teenbeat Obama"

I see (and recommend, and kick) dozens of threads which are both very carefully written and highly critical of the new administration's policy decisions and actions - from a progressive viewpoint. DU has been, and remains a lively and diverse discussion forum where emphasis is still placed on debate rather than on "cheerleading".

The focus of DU, however, does need to evolve toward advocating a common set of goals rather than on defeating a common enemy. The Democratic party is no longer the underdog - the collective opponents of the DU membership (the GOP) no longer dominate all branches of the government. You (progressive Democrats) have won the first in a series of battles and it would be wise to choose the new battlefronts very carefully.(IMHO)

[Caliman73]

171. There will always be people who chafe at disagreement with their views

I was on a thread regarding the Speaker of the House where my POV that we needed to focus first on the perpetrators of the crime was taken as unmitigated support for the Speaker's inaction on the issue. The way we continue to focus on Policy is to discuss the policy without resorting to attacks on the personal traits of the politician. It is different to say, "I disagree with President Obama's decision not to release the new photos..." than saying, "President Obama is a Republican's sock puppet." Now granted both statements will be met with equal ire by some posters because they are such fervent supporters of the President that they perceive disagreement as a personal attack, or because they have such stong opinions that they have rigid thinking about the value of dissent and debate.

The way to keep the balance is to continue posting your opinions about policy. Let the moderators do their jobs to keep the discussion civil and focused on the issues.

[TBF]

173. K&R n/t

[mule_train]

174. "Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels "

Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Sebastian Doyle]

230. And since you brought Ike into this......

he's actually a great example. There are many who say that President Obama is beholden to Wall Street, or has been taken over by the DLC, or AIPAC or whomever. And truly, some of his actions and appointments do make that appear to be the case.

But Dwight David Eisenhower was literally made President by none other than the goddamned Hitler funding, Great Depression causing, CIA launching Bush Crime Family.

You don't get much worse friends than that. Yet Ike rejected much of their agenda, and in fact refused to endorse Nixon - who WAS a complete toady of the Bush Crime Family - and in fact warned the American people of their true goals in his last speech.

I remember when Obama said, during the campaign, that he found things about Reagan worthy of admiration. I don't know about that, but maybe he'll turn back a few pages in Repuke presidents and find a better model.

Ike was right about those pieces of shit. It's too bad he wasn't taken more seriously. :evilfrown:

[ooglymoogly]

175. FDR told activists in his own party, "I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it." nt

[20score]

176. K&R. Everyone should be leery when asked to give up their mind or their voice.

[Mermaid7]

229. Yes

But when I expressed an previous opinion about my concerns, I got the hachets.(plural)

And not from you, I might say.

And thank you for that.
For sticking up for me.

[20score]

240. You're welcome.

Now I wish I could remember when that was;)

[OHDEM]

177. You hit the nail on the head!

Too much arguing over being too loyal or not loyal enough...etc.

Let's face it - If we all agreed all the time, we'd be right-wingers!

[Faygo Kid]

180. I look forward to 10:39 tonight, when this insult disappears.

I have rarely if ever seen anything as insulting on DU as accusing supporters of being "Teambeat Obama," when that's of course not the case; many of us have criticized him here while supporting him overall.

Apparently the Mods are on holiday. And to have this as a greatest thread is absurd. That's how it is here, however.

[kid a]

193. i kick this subthread

[TwilightZone]

214. And, yet, it's not considered flamebait and/or a broad-brush smear.

Curious, eh?

[emulatorloo]

181. Too many critics are buying into the Republican Noise Machine & Poorly written AP stories

and then flying off the handle at stuff that is being spun to the right or is just plain inaccurate.

I was surprised to see the Wall Street Journal Editorial Page and Ari Fleischer cited quite seriously as credible sources in the last couple days.

Additionally, policy discussion is great if everybody keeps a level head. A lot of people seem to be getting over-excited on both sides of the debate.

At anyrate I know you have been around long enough to know that DU goes in cycles. This too will pass.

[Reterr]

184. Yup only the Republicans have anything to complain about

I follow environmental issues quite closely and I am very familiar with Ignacio Moreno's record. I don't need anyone right or left to tell me that this is a good decision:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/15/ignacia-moreno-superfund/
Obama Nominates Superfund Polluter Lawyer To Run DOJ Environment Division

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/05/15/15greenwire-doj-nominees-industry-experience-a-worry-for-s-12208.html


I guess talkingpointsmemo, atrios etc. are also critical of Geithner etc. because they are Republicans...

[emulatorloo]

185. That is not what I said. So please don't put words in my mouth

No offense but those kind of tactics are not conducive to policy discussion.

[Robb]

183. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[emulatorloo]

186. LOL n/t

[Uncle Joe]

187. I agree, kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Phoebe Loosinhouse.:thumbsup:

[Grinchie]

188. I get the impression is that we are unwitting pawns in an information gathering exercise

It is clear that their is an invisible hand that enforces the Continuity of Government. When one realizes that those same forces allowed the Stolen Election of 2000, the destruction of 9/11 and then used it to further political agendas intent on removing yet more of our Constitution rights under the guys of National Security. We see the same continuity of Government at work with a new PR man -- Obama, yet the majority of government is nothing more than a rehashed Clinton administration, which by now, was clearly responsible for a great weakening of our Industrial and Productive capactiy through cozy relationships with the forces at work for Globalization.

Id did not take very long after Clinton was out of office before the DotCom bust occurred, and the jobs were quickly outsourced to India. That was the first sucker punch to weaken the country, followed by 9/11, that Pearl Harbor moment when everyone fearfully concedes to granting overwhelming power to the beneficient Fuhrer. Never mind the Torture, the massive Civilian deaths in Iraq, or the lies that got us there in the first place.

I am of the belief that the Bush Coup actually expected to prevail, but somehow, forces prevented the War in Iran which was so gleefully anticipated by the right, but was thwarted by the brave individuals that released the NIE stating the Iran clearly was not a threat. The pressure on Iran is incredible. Everywhere on the map the US has it surrounded with military bases, yet we are poking at it further. It is clear that this pressure has to be released at some point, either through accidental initiation of War, or by a desperate act of self defense.

Now we are seeing the same continuity of bogus, unconstructive and wasteful policies by the Obama Administration, which reveals that there are 2 parties in name only. Instead of Democrat and Republican, it is more like the Genovesie's and the Gambino's. They both represent the same underlying structure of criminal intent, only they have worked well to invoke the immunity granted to Corporations to shield them from any accountability.

The Government uses many tools to shape Opinion, steer technology, and train a generation of operators unwittingly. For example, the Computer Age, Arcade Games and or RPG's are nothing more that early training tools for individuals to fly predator drones and kill people from a nice cubicle in Florida or California. Nobody ever askes where all this bandwidth comes from for these missions to occur in real time. We are limited by the speed of light after all, so how is the round trip latency of 250 milliseconds compensated for?

At this point, the Continuity of Government people see that their models are breaking down. The character analysis techniques deveoped by Darpa and SRI are breaking down, and people are starting to succumb to the inherant wrongness in todays America. The citizens may have been fooled by the Century of the Self, but the price has been too great. The flood of cheap, useless goods that have a lifespan of a few months is getting old. The new products and fashions that appear every year, made to look like new features or unique are neither.

When a 37,000 year old hammer is unearthed, by god, it still functions as a hammer. It doesn't need Nike rubberized designs all over it, yet thats what we see. Glamorized technology that in many case yields an unbalance, physically demanding and injurious tool. It boggles the mind that people put up with this, because they don't realize that all of this is for show. It's a Hollywood set, dressed to appear like we live in a productive society, but underneath, it's just a bunch of foam rubber facsimilies.

Our Goverment is identical to this analogy. It has the appearance of a democracy, but it really isn't, and that's why I support this OP. People have to look at the reality of our world and demand real change. Big Money can buy anyone, or remove them at will. If we dissent, refuse to play the game, huge chunks of their power will be destroyed. As far as continuing demands on the Government, I see no opportunity to effect change anymore. If this administration hasn't heard us by now, then it is doubtful that there will be change without real contraction by the citizens from the current trends in Government.

When I mentioned tools the Government uses to shape and control the Masses, I have to mention that in the past, they relied on more primitive means to gather data, such as survey's, taxe returns, census, etc.

Now we know that they mine almost everything transmitted over the internet, and telephone. It is trivial to store all the information transmitted daily. However, there method is not working like they would have hoped, because it's still mountains of data that needs to be analyzed.

Which is why I believe that the lates batch of Flip Flops by Obama are nothing more than an attempt to determine a causal reaction to the Status Quo, or if the Population is truly ready to stop playing the game. This information is valuable to those that wish to retain control.

I'm of the belief that the Torture Photo reversal is that last straw for many, and I know it is for me. It is time to secure my own future, and let the Government wither under it's own cumbersome belief system.

I'm not going to play their game anymore, and neither are a lot of other people that have the insight to see the corruption in Government.

[cali]

194. no. you're infusing institutional memory and behavior

with a consciousness that it does not possess, and falling into the correlation is causation trap. it is not. And sorry, I've seen the exact same rant with its lack of critical thinking, too many times to take it seriously. Of course there's corruption in gov't. Of course there's way too much money in politics. Of course there are people trying to control what happens, but wrapping it up into a neat little package is just too easy.

[Grinchie]

202. Thats the problem. It's such a complex web of interelated goals

That most people cannot wrap their minds around the possibility that we are indeed slaves to a surreal form of freedom.

If one were to revaels the insanity of Abstinance Only, which stifles the most basic function of human existance, that is sexuality, and tie it in to the mass plague of neurotic behavior in society, then people just short circuit instead of listening, and would rather pursue the dogma of Society because it is more convenient.

What good is History if nobody acts on it?

What good is education or science, when revealing a new theory causes vicious attacks and denial from people with vested interests in the status Quo?

What good is the Consumer Price Index when all of the numbers are adjusted downwards in order to protect the perception of economic stability?

What good is Fractional Reserve Monetary System when there are no reserves, other than a claim on future labor, which ios dependant on perpetual growth in a finite universe?

What good is it to have laws, then have the Government claim that they are too secret to show you.

What good is it to have laws, when they are written is such a way as to be nearly incomprehensible to 90% of the American public? For example http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/aprqtr/26cfr1.861-8T.htm

What good are laws, when their are two different systems in place Criminal Law (For us) and Regulatory Law (For Corporations)?

What good are laws if they only apply to some people and not others?

I am not convinced that there is no conscious behavior, considering the continuity of the times we live in. Huge money flows are at stake, and the system in in self defense mode. Control of the masses is at stake, because without the cooperation of the masses, they got nothing. No marketing in the world will convince the victims of a fraud to trust the fraudster so easily again. The the perpetrators of Fraud are so far removed from the reality of the citizens, they will continue to shoot themselves in the foot. I think they are only now coming to realize how far beyond the limit they have travelled.

[kid a]

191. i would rather you list them, than post a thread worthy of teenbeat (trivial observations)

[Faygo Kid]

192. Gawddammit, "Teenbeat Obama" is not acceptable.

This late 50s supporter of our president (not George W. Bush, you may wish to note), has criticized him frequently, but I will be DAMNED if I will accept this kind of juvenile critique without comment.

All of you approving of this thread may wish to rethink. I have no problem with dissent here at DU (I welcome it), but this name calling is GARBAGE. And unworthy of this site. I am mystified that so many here support this kind of FReeper behavior.

Indeed, let's critique policies. But "Teenbeat Obama" ??? Bring it.

[LWolf]

195. On policy discussions:

It was easier when we were a minority party because everybody could agree that Bush and Republican policy was bad; the discussion was centered on what Democrat had the best ideas for change.

It was still partisan, although not quite so blatantly, militantly, so, in the early years.

There was an assumption that a Democratic majority would automatically support positive, leftward change.

That assumption should have died a swift death after the '06 election, watching what was allowed to be "on the table," and what was not, but it somehow survived.

Now we have the partisans, who, to all appearances, are happy to switch sides on policy as long as it's a "D" who's doing it, really frustrated with those of us who don't consider an election a "win," but look to win on actual issues. The issues aren't the point, the party is, and those of us who hold the party accountable for issues are the "enemy."

We also have those who just like to have a leader that they like, and willingly follow his lead without question. It's a relief to some, and they will defend that leader to the end, regardless of what he says or does. They also don't want to hear any criticism.

Then there are the centrist dems, who are actually thrilled to have a centrist president with a center-right agenda on board. They legitimately support Obama's policies because they agree with them; they haven't had to rationalize any switch in their own positions. They should be the best bunch to debate policy with, except that they seem to perceive their role as one to shut down, in what ever manner necessary, any dissent; we've become the opposition in a campaign over policy, and they aren't going to find common ground. They want centrist policy to WIN. Just as I want leftist policy to move forward, lol.

I think the conflict is exacerbated by an inconvenient truth: Obama has made too many appointments, and too many major policy decisions, that favor corporations, that continue Bush policies, that are a clear contrast with traditional Democratic positions, especially with the democratic wing of the party.

That makes it a hell of a lot harder to balance discussion of the good vs the unacceptable. It makes those who dissent with his policies appear to be negative most of the time.

I know, because I've been repeatedly accused of NEVER saying ANYTHING good about Obama.

It's true I was adamantly opposed to his nomination, and did not go quietly. Why? Because I listened, I paid attention, and I didn't want the policies he campaigned on to become reality. It should come as no surprise that I still oppose those policies.

I'm not suddenly a traitor; I'm still a non-partisan, issues-oriented democrat. I still oppose this administration's agenda on most key issues.

I'm happy to give him credit when I think he does something right; it just doesn't happen often enough. In reality, unless I become a subscriber to "teenbeat obama," there are too many who will never have an open discussion of policy with me.

[NJmaverick]

198. Hyperbole like teenbeat shows a lack of interest in intelligent policy discussion

[Reterr]

200. That is true

It isn't serious, high-minded debate like calling Krugman a Freeper because he disagrees with some of Obama's economic policies.

[NJmaverick]

260. Since Krugman has been proven wrong

those that felt Krugman's motives, turned out to be right. Either that or the man had everyone, including the Nobel people fooled, as to his knowlegdge and intelligence.

[TwilightZone]

216. Exactly.

The OP isn't interested in discussion. The OP is interested in a bunch of bandwagon jumping, preferably with the OP as the driver of said wagon.

[earcandle]

203. Who stop us from being able to continue the legacy of

authentic discussion of historical events that affect our
lives?

I don't see or understand the "turning point"
concern.

No one has asked me to stop making comments, but I have
noticed that some of my comments and the horse they rode in on
seem to dissappear from public view.  You have to go look for
them.

Is that what you mean? 
(I haven't read the thread) 

[CadenBlaker]

204. Well...

I certainly do love our president, BUT, I DO NOT agree with everything he has done or some policies he has kept. So, I'm all for reasonable discussion of topics, not just fawning over our president because he's on "our side". We aren't crazy right wingers who fall in line like sheep, we're crazy liberals who are like herding cats when it comes to anything. :)

[tavalon]

205. Nothing has changed, that I can see

There are many of us willing to discuss and even to take President Obama out to the woodshed for the stupid things he's done (which are blessedly few but unfortunately egregious) and there are a few of us who worship the ground he walks on no matter what. Now, we didn't have Bush worshipers, I'll grant you, but otherwise we've always had this tension. Same as it ever was.

The thing I was worried about is that we might have died of neglect after Obama came in. That hasn't happened.

[Skittles]

206. THANK YOU

well said :thumbsup:

[maryf]

208. Howard Zinn on Obama

this article pretty much says alot regarding this same discussion:

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22639.htm

and again, where are some people like yard work, two americas...

[defendandprotect]

231. Obama is a politician - there should be no unthinking/unquestioning acceptance of what Obama does--!

Obama was and is a politician.

So we must not be swept away into an unthinking and unquestioning acceptance of what Obama does.

* * * * * *



Zinn pointed to the "huge agitation in this country" pre-New Deal . . ..

And just wanted to comment that what they feared was the population moving

to Socialism.

Right now, we have no leverage over the Democratic Party and they all know that!

We need to get FAIR ELECTIONS NOW ACT - HR1826 PASSED -- legislation in the works ....

public financing of campaigns -- and wrest control back from capitalists/corporations.

Following that IRV voting --



And how many of us are even talking about Obama's bombing of Pakistan -- !!

It's the mindset that says America has some God-given right to invade other countries for their own benefit.

We have military bases in more than a hundred countries. We have fourteen military bases on Okinawa alone. Who wants us there? The governments. They get benefits. But the people don't really want us there. There have been huge demonstrations in Italy against the establishment of a U.S. military base. There have been big demonstrations in South Korea and on Okinawa.

One of the first acts of the Obama Administration was to send Predator missiles to bomb Pakistan. People died. The claim is, "Oh, we're very precise with our weapons. We have the latest equipment. We can target anywhere and hit just what we want."


Yes . . . we do need a "total turnaround" -- not more of the same . . .

The vision should be of a nation that becomes liked all over the world. I won't even say loved-it'll take a while to build up to that. A nation that is not feared, not disliked, not hated, as too often we are, but a nation that is looked upon as peaceful, because we've withdrawn our military bases from all these countries. We don't need to spend the hundreds of billions of dollars on the military budget. Take all the money allocated to military bases and the military budget, and-this is part of the emancipation-you can use that money to give everybody free health care, to guarantee jobs to everybody who doesn't have a job, guaranteed payment of rent to everybody who can't pay their rent, build child care centers.

Let's use the money to help other people around the world, not to send bombers over there. When disasters take place, they need helicopters to transport people out of the floods and out of devastated areas. They need helicopters to save people's lives, and the helicopters are over in the Middle East, bombing and strafing people.

What's required is a total turn­around. We want a country that uses its resources, its wealth, and its power to help people, not to hurt them. That's what we need. This is a vision we have to keep alive. We shouldn't be easily satisfied and say, "Oh well, give him a break. Obama deserves respect."



Not only is Obama a politician. Worse, he's surrounded by politicians. And some of them he picked himself. He picked Hillary Clinton, he picked Lawrence Summers, he picked people who show no sign of breaking from the past.

We are citizens. We must not put ourselves in the position of looking at the world from their eyes and say, "Well, we have to compromise, we have to do this for political reasons." No, we have to speak our minds.

[maryf]

281. Use your mind or lose your mind!

thanks, its our duty as human beings to speak out, great post!

(and where is Two Americas?)

[femrap]

209. During the primaries?????

All I remember is misogyny. I quit coming to DU during the Primaries.

As for now, I am not surprised by Obama's actions...I knew he wouldn't live up to many of the promises.

Actually, I've lost track....Single Payer Health Insurance is off the table. The Employee Free Choice Act is off the table. There was something else....torture and Gitmo. Anyone else add to this list?

[Jennicut]

264. Single payer was never a promise. Biden and Obama both support Employee Free Choice.

http://www.seiu.org/2009/05/vp-bidens-renewed-support-for-employee-free-choice-if-a-union-is-what-you-want-then-a-union-is-what.php

I love how some here repeat things over and over like they are somehow true.

[femrap]

285. Single isn't getting a seat at the table...

and it deserves one. And where is Employee Free Choice??? Why isn't the House and Senate voting on it?

At least let those who are forced into early retirement (people in their 50's) get Medicare. See how that goes...then add others.

Corporations rule this country.

[Dawgs]

210. I'll discuss policy with others; not you.

Your idiotic comment gets you no where with me.

[book_worm]

215. Good Grief, it's tiring hearing you people gripe every day--DU allows you to criticize Obama

and you have been doing it daily since the day after the election. What's your beef?

[butterfly77]

218. The only problem I see is that...

most who complain want everything done in the first six months of his presidency...He is untangling the web that the former admin has set for him and I thought some here could see that too as he works on all of these problems. Not from what I have been hearing some of it is repubs on board,Hillary supporters who haven't gotten over it yet,others who think they know everything and don't give a damn and don't want to be rational about anything they want what they want and they want it now,some do have a point in some areas..

[mirrera]

219. k&r

[leeroysphitz]

220. Too late!

[Terran]

227. So who is preventing you from discussing policy?

Methinks your melodramtaic OP is a complete non-starter. No doubt I'll be labeled a cheerleader in some people's minds for doubting you.

[defendandprotect]

232. Agree -- K&R . . .

While I keep hoping that we will see the "change" promised . . .

Somewhere it is also going to dawn on DU'ers that the "people's" government delivered to

us had everything to do with small "d" democracy and nothing to do with a two-party system.

We have to have FAIR ELECTIONS NOW ACT -- HR 1826 --

and get corporations out of seat of government --

Following that IRV voting!!!

[Better Believe It]

233. Exactly! K & R

[Captain Hilts]

235. Here's a GREAT example ...

President Obama spent four years in Congress! Wow!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8415111&mesg_id=8415111

[Bonobo]

247. This post is a good example of pent-up resentment from Primaries.

Don't make the mistake of thinking people don't notice.

[Captain Hilts]

250. Thanks! Great example of someone who is a poor winner. Nothing those who supported others is good

enough.

Despite all the POSITIVE comments I've made about the President and Michelle and support of his policies - YOU can't get over the primaries.

I don't think torture should be a political football. Some things are not negotiable.

Are you okay with all the WRONG people being blamed for torture? Low-ranking enlisted, national guard, and Nancy Pelosi?

[Bonobo]

261. You deserved it.

For the gratuitous poo-smearing in the above post. Totally rude and unnecessary. Teen beat indeed. The OP you drew attention to was thoughtful and you took 3 seconds to smear it with your poo. So you deserved it. Take your lumps like a good little girl.

[Toasterlad]

236. As a Harsh Obama Critic, I'd Have to Disagree.

I've posted some pretty strong diatribes against the man, and so far none of my stuff has been deleted...which is what I'd say the REAL measure of tolerance is around here. Granted, I've commented almost exclusively on GLBT issues, where Obama is indefensibly weak, so there are fewer "OBAMA IS ALWAYS RIGHT AND BESIDES HE'S GOD!" posters on those threads. But as long as the mods are letting both sides talk, I'd say there's still ground for sane discussion. There will always be those Dembots who'll support anyone with a "D" by their name no matter what (and who, in my mind, are just as dangerous as the fanatical Freepers), just as there will always be those who'll criticize Obama no matter what, because he wasn't their candidate (and despite my views on the man's committment to GLBT concerns, I don't consider myself in this camp). But I think the majority are capable of discussing policies in a reasonable manner.

[Jennicut]

265. I really like Obama but agree he sucks on GLBT issues. Discussion is good and

allowed here on DU. Throwing around stuff like "Teenbeat" just clouds everything and makes a discussion look like an agenda.

[JVS]

239. Ok here's my take on the situation.

There is serious discussion of issues but many people just aren't a part of it.

Some people aren't a part of it because they they don't want to discuss policy seriously. They are more concerned with performing the behavior that causes you to think of "Teenbeat". Then there are people who seem to still be nursing primary hostility toward Obama and those who have supported him. Skinner made a post after the primaries saying that people shouldn't be surprised if people doubt their motives in criticism if they have never shown any indication of strong support and lack bona fides with others at DU. This group that lacks bona fides is also shut out of serious discussion because their much anticipated and criticism gets ignored at best by a wide range of DUers who no longer take them seriously, or at worst savagely flamed by people with whom they've been fighting for over a year.

[Captain Hilts]

251. I, too, support the president on most things, but check out

my post #235 and the 'you just can't get over the primaries' response it generated in #247.

But I am very upset over the link's poster feeling okay with the idea that torture, and its prosecution, should be a political ploy for the president. I don't think this issue should be a political football. As someone who grew up in the military community, I am horrified that all the wrong people are being blamed for this policy. We need an investigation to understand the process that made it possible.

But, to too many, if President Obama wants to 'move forward', so do they and that's all they need to know. I need to know more.

[Name removed]

257. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

259. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

258. So we have to push him to do the right things?

[Captain Hilts]

271. As someone here said, liberals sat on their hands in the '90s.

They didn't show up to vote and they didn't press the president or Congress for more progressive legislation.

Conservative Democrats torpedoed legalization of gays in the military.

[zorahopkins]

262. NO COMFORT to Our Enemies!

For me, I have NO desire to give ANY comfort to any of our enemies.

My enemies are the people who want to take us back to the terrible evil 8-year-long nightmare of tyranny we (and the rest of the world) endured under the illegal and totally corrupt Bush/Cheney regime.

And -- believe it or not! -- there are many, many people who would want to take us back to those years of endless war and suppression of rights.

So I will NOT give any comfort to those enemies -- NONE!

Badmouthing President Obama is one way to give comfort (and ammunition) to those enemies.

We cannot -- CANNOT -- afford to do that!

[Iggo]

266. Dissent gives comfort to our enemies.

Hmmm...

Now where have I heard that before?

:rofl:

[zorahopkins]

270. Laugh All You Want To.....

Laugh all you want to.

I, for one, will NOT do anything that will help bring back the nightmare (or ANY form of it!) that we had to endure for the eight, long, dreary years of tyranny.

I want to see Barack Obama re-elected in 2012. The alternatives (Sarah Palin? Bobby Jindahl? Newt Gingrich?) are just to terrible even to contemplate.

I want to see the Democrats keep control of the Senate. Can you imagine having to say "Majority Leader Mitch McConnell?)

I want to see the Democrats keep control of the House. I don't even want to think about "Speaker Boehner" (GASP!)

I want my RIGHTS to be preserved. I want Barack Obama to be able to appoint the next four or five Justices to the Supreme Court, and I do NOT want the Senate to be able to filibuster against them.

So go ahead and laugh when I say NO COMFORT to OUR enemies.

But it isn't funny.

Just think of the alternatives.

[Iggo]

275. I'll say it slowly:

You...sound...exactly...like...a...right...wing...nut...job...when...you...say...things...like...that.

Not saying you are one. Just saying, at a glance, there's no difference.

[zorahopkins]

276. I Am NOT A Right Wing Nut Job!

I most certainly am NOT a right wing nut job!!

And there is absolutely NO reason to speak slowly to me.

I am an intelligent woman who does not really need to be talked down to.

I also happen to understand that there is a BIG difference between talking like a right wing nut job and DOING ALL I CAN to keep the right wing nuts jobs from EVER gaining power again.

President Barack Obama represents not only change from the last nightmarish eight year. He also represents HOPE for the future.

I will do NOTHING to prevent him from leading us to a new era of peace, prosperity, gender equality, justice, and love.

[Iggo]

279. Not saying you are.

Just saying you sound exactly like one.

Not all opposition is the enemy.

If you want to hang out with people who believe that all opposition is the enemy, the Right has a place all warmed up for you.

THAT'S what I'm saying.

[Captain Hilts]

273. I couldn't believe they used that line either. Ain't irony ironic? nt

[SIMPLYB1980]

274. "Teenbeat Obama" Yeah that's going to make me take you serious.

I see policy discussed every day. Followed by people insulting those who support Obama, followed by people defending Obama. I'll take the defenders over the insulter's any day of the week.

[Name removed]

278. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

284. I'm happy to discuss policy.

But posting some news item and adding hyperbole and dramatic handwringing is not "discussing policy".

And neither is following that piece with lots of snark such as "more of that change we can believe in".

Sickening. Really.

[county worker]

287. Here's what I don't understand. Why do feel the need to post something like this?

You can say what the hell you want about Obama. No body is stopping you. What I don't get is why you have to make such a big show of it.

Do it and let those who disagree post what they want and let those agree post what they want. I'm a little sick and tired of all the whining about not being about to attack Obama. That's just not way it is. I really think you need some kind of attention that you feel your not getting.

Nobody tells you what to post and what not to post except the DU rules and I didn't read a rule saying you can't criticize Obama.