Canada and Norway

[The Straight Story]

26. How many people in Canada legally own firearms?

According to the United Nations, Canada ranks third among the developed
western coutries (behind the US and Norway) in civilian ownership of
firearms. A 1992 survey sponsored by the UN reported that 26% of
Canadians, over 7,000,000 people, own firearms. A 1991 Justice
Department telephone survey indicated there were an average of 2.67
firearms in one of every four Canadian Households, with 71% having
access to a rifle, 64% to a shotgun, and 12% to a handgun. They
calculated that there are over six million legally owned firearms in
Canada. Other authorities insist that this estimate is much too low and
that there are at least 20,000,000 rifles and shotguns in Canada; as
many, per capita, as in the United States.



http://stason.org/TULARC/society/guns-canadian/26-How-many-people-in-Canada-legally-own-firearms.html

Norway and Canada. Lots of guns.
Norway and Canada. Not a lot of gun violence.
Norway and Canada. Good mental health services.

Norway:
In Norway there is currently a National Mental Health Programme. The programme was originally for the period 1999 to 2006, and it has been prolonged until 2008. This programme aims at improving accessibility, quality and organization of mental health services and treatment on all levels. A central idea of the Mental Health Programme is to promote deinstitutionalization, with considerable emphasis on community-based psychiatry, where treatment is given closer to the patient’s local community and primary health services. These community clinics represent an all-round psychiatric practice and consist of a network of services, such as multidisciplinary treatment and teamwork, in addition to programmes for accommodation, occupation and social support.

http://www.helsetilsynet.no/templates/ArticleWithLinks____5520.aspx

Canada:
As for other health care services, Canada and the United States have different approaches to financing mental health services care for their residents. Canada has a single payer plan in which all residents have government-sponsored health insurance coverage for most mental health care services. In contrast, in the U.S., limited funding for mental health care services comes from health insurance providers.

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=103622975.html

You don't need to remove the guns. You need to remove the reasons people use them to harm others.
Those countries also have less people living in poverty. Their medical needs are taken care of. And cursory search of stress levels reported by people there is also less ( http://home3.americanexpress.com/corp/pc/2003/roper_stress.asp )

[Spazito]

1. I have been hesitant to post a response to your OP....

because I suspect it could end up in the gungeon if there are responses but I didn't want you to think no-one supports what you say so I decided to post. Michael Moore's documentary "Bowling for Columbine" made the point as well that it is not guns, per se, that is the problem it is more cultural differences causing gun violence.

[The Straight Story]

2. Thank you. It is more about mental health than guns (the OP) and it could

probably cover a lot of other issues as well (crime in general, depression and poverty links, etc).

[Spazito]

3. I agree, it is really not about guns themselves rather the lack of ....

addressing the issues of mental health, poverty, education, etc, that often lead to the resulting gun violence.

[BigBluenoser]

4. There are also issues...

of homogeneity. The US has cultural issues like no place I have ever seen that exist for historical reasons.

Not saying mental health does not play a role, but the vehicles of expression seem to differ greatly (not that Canada doesn't have the occasional kill spree). People from the US as a group should not experience MH issues more often than other industrialized countries in real terms.

Its not a gun thing, it's a tribe & political thing.

[TahitiNut]

5. So, the reason a father kills all his children and then commits suicide is because ...

... of "cultural differences"?? I see. :eyes:

[BigBluenoser]

6. No...

Fathers do the murder-suicide in Canada all the time (and yes, with guns). Mothers do it too, Just less often and with different tools.

Silly me, I thought we were referring to the spree-kills.

[The Straight Story]

7. Mothers here used to drown their kids. But we banned water and they are safe now

:)

[KamaAina]

10. "Its not a gun thing, it's a tribe & political thing."

Canada is perhaps the most diverse nation on Earth. There's the Quebecois, of course; meanwhile, T.O. was just replaced as the world's most multicultural city -- by Vancouver!

And yet, picture Michael Moore standing alone by the side of that freeway, yelling "Free guns for Canadians!"

edit: spelling

[BigBluenoser]

12. Yeah but...

the expressions of tribalism is very different. Also diversity in Canada is - in my opinion - very constrained geographically. There is also a far less active level of hostility between the various groups that make up Canada (the relationship between the gov and the various Native tribes - literally tribes in this case - is probably the hottest). The legacy of slavery and the shared border with Mexico fuels an entire different interpretation of events than exists in Canada.

[mudesi]

23. Homogeneity? Where? In Canada?

Please, PLEASE don't tell me you think Canada is homogeneous.

Please.

[BigBluenoser]

27. In vast swaths of communities... yes it is.

I have lived in 4 provinces, I have spent months in several others and I have been to all of them. I lived in Toronto, I lived in vancouver and I have lived in smaller cities and other rural areas as well. Canada has little pods of diversity (in the major cities - of which there are few). That does not make it a diverse country. Hell, even the big-3 Canadian metropolitan areas are so internally segregated you would think it was by government policy.

I have some experience with Canada - having been born there and spending until 2007 there.

[Spazito]

31. Census shows Canada truly multicultural

The newest figures from Statistics Canada show that Canada is one of the most multicultural countries in the world. Since the 1990s Canada has had its highest proportion of immigrants since 1931, just before the Great Depression hit.
About two million new immigrants moved to Canada in the past decade. The vast majority of them choosing to live in Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto.

- 18.4 per cent of Canada's population (5.4 million) were born outside Canada;

- 9.4 per cent of immigrants who came to Canada in the 1990s can't speak or understand French or English;

- 73 per cent of immigrants who came to Canada in the 1990s live in Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal, with only only six per cent choosing to live in areas outside of major urban centres;

- Of 1.8 million immigrants who arrived between 1991-2001, 58 per cent were from Asia, 20 per cent from Europe, 11 per cent from the Caribbean, Central and South America, eight per cent from Africa and three per cent from the United States;

- Chinese was the largest visible minority group (3.5 per cent), then South Asian (3.0 per cent), black (2.2 per cent), Filipino (1.0) and Arab-West Asian (1.0);

- Canadians reported more than 200 different ethnic origins in the 2001 census.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2003/01/21/census030121.html

[BigBluenoser]

33. You kind of demonstrated my point with your third bullet..

[Spazito]

34. Not at all...

Because immigrants tend to gravitate toward the larger centers does NOT negate the bottom line fact that Canada is a truly multicultural country. It is the totality of numbers that deliniates the changing face of Canada not whether the spread around the country is even.

[BigBluenoser]

35. Statistics rely on human interpretation...

and mine does not agree with yours.

Cheers.

[imdjh]

43. Is multi-ethnic and multi-cultural the same thing?

Just dabbling in babbling. I have no idea what this has to do with handguns.

[imdjh]

39. I live in Florida, I have never seen a nonwhite (by my judgement) person with Canadian plates nt

[Spazito]

41. That means nothing, imo

Canadians travel many places and a minority, small minority may choose to go to Florida. There is no way one can even connect multiculturalism to your observations, imo.

[imdjh]

42. Just an observation

Surely you didn't think that you were the only one to know the racial composition or issues of Canada.

[Spazito]

53. An observation posted in the sub thread subject of the multicultural composition...

of Canada, just a coincidence then? Given you made no mention of your knowledge re the composition or issues of Canada, I didn't know if you were cognizant of the facts or not.

[dustbunnie]

48. A lot of the Canadian tourists to Florida are French Canadian.

That's why you have that perception.

[dustbunnie]

47. Outside of the major urban centers, it pretty much is.

Sorry. :)

[Canuckistanian]

8. 12% of Canadians have access to a handgun??

I seriously doubt that statistic. Handguns are illegal EVERYWHERE in Canada and no one outside of law enforcement would have access to one. The only time I've ever seen one, it's in the holster of a policeman or bank security guard.

If I EVER saw anyone with a handgun, I'd report it immediately. And so would most Canadians.

[BigBluenoser]

9. This is not true...

While you need to jump through hoops to do it, it is not impossible. And there are many handgun ranges in Canada. It does seem high to me as well but it could just be the definition of -has access to- (work, in the home - spouse etc)

[The Straight Story]

13. Here are some stats

http://everything2.com/title/Comparative%2520statistics%2520for%2520gun%2520ownership%252C%2520homicide%2520and%2520suicide%2520rates

Gun ownership in Canada per 100,000 people is 24,000 people. US is 85k. Homicide rate is 2.2 in Canada and 9.3 in US.

[Canuckistanian]

36. I don't doubt that figure, but I was talking about handguns

I'm 50 years old and I've lived in a big city and the country and I've NEVER heard of a citizen who owns a handgun.

It requires a special permit - you basically have to prove that you NEED one for protection. And it's only a handful of permits per year.

[TahitiNut]

11. Also of significance, NEITHER Canada NOR Norway have the death penalty.

It seems interesting to me that the governments of Canada and Norway DON'T demonstrate 'justice' by killing someone.

When a nation portrays the highest form of 'justice' by committing homicide, it seems it's to be expected that the citizens of such a country would act in a similar fashion. Or vice-versa.

[The Straight Story]

14. Good point - killing is the American way. From wars to it's own citizens.

But hey, blaming guns makes people feel better.

[mudesi]

15. And They're ALL REGISTERED AND LICENSED

As required by FEDERAL (NOT provincial) law.

[The Straight Story]

16. Yeah cause a killer won't kill a bunch of folks if their gun is registered

They wouldn't want to break any laws.... :rofl:

[mudesi]

17. Gimme A Fuckin Break

Laws work to prevent people from easily obtaining guns as well.

All the typical bullshit from the gun nuts on DU.

[The Straight Story]

19. So what causes a person to kill someone else?

Is it that they own a gun and suddenly they go off because of that and kill others?

The problem is deeper and more complex, but hey the easy way is to ban things or track them because fixing the real issues is hard work.

Quite a few died in canada last year from being shot. Not as many as here. And it wasn't because their guns had to be registered.

[mudesi]

22. Did Anyone Say The Word "Ban"?

See, there you guys go again. It's like you've all been conditioned to bark at the sound of a bell like Pavlov's dog. Jesus H. Christ on a cracker. *I* certainly didn't say anything about banning guns, so where the fuck did you get that from?

2) "Quite a few died in canada last year from being shot. Not as many as here."

Absolute, total bullshit. A complete lie. I don't know why you think typing it makes it true.


A Federal (that's the key word: Federal) licensing and registration program would prevent guns from falling into the wrong hands. That helps to curb the number of firearm killings. It works in places like Canada, because while no, the gun doesn't cause someone to commit murder, having fewer guns around and making it harder for them to obtain in general makes it just that much harder for a mentally disturbed person to get their hands on one and go on a killing spree in the first place.

But you guys just can't fucking admit that you're wrong. Every single fucking time this happens the same old bullshit comes out of the woodwork.

[The Straight Story]

26. Well at least we agree guns aren't the problem. I will concede to you that I was wrong

on the use of the term ban (but hey, when they banned smoking in everyplace but bars they said they were done, and now look where we are - I just don't trust people).

Gun nuts like me (and no, I don't own one) want to keep them out of the hands of whack jobs too. That is why things like background checks don't ruffle my feathers. it was supposed to stop all this.

Now it is registering and licensing. So can we say background checks failed?

[imdjh]

45. shall not be infringed

"But you guys just can't fucking admit that you're wrong. Every single fucking time this happens the same old bullshit comes out of the woodwork."

Concealed carry is already infringed, and in my opinion illegally. It costs about $200 and takes three months to get a concealed carry license, when the Constitution clearly states "shall not be infringed". But law abiding citizens tolerate this infringement to be in compliance and possibly because they believe that it weeds some folks out.

[Caliman73]

37. well I know that owning severl firearms has caused me to .....

Oh no wait, I haven't ever gone on a killing spree. I talk about my problems, have sought therapy, and have other outlets to deal with life's stress. We need to address WHY people kill, not WHAT they kill with. People keep ignoring the WHY and jumping to the WHAT because as you say it is easier and makes people feel good despite not actually doing anything about the CAUSE.

[imdjh]

44. The fundamental disagreement transcends guns

There are two kinds of people:

• Those who believe that poverty causes crime

• Those who believe that criminality causes crime

[uppityperson]

18. link to my poll about mental health care. I agree that there are other issues also

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5396402&mesg_id=5396402

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. There's a definite mean and dumb streak in this country

Among other things, it says

1. If you're poor and miserable, it's the fault of the liberals/immigrants/feminists/blacks/anybody but you or the economic elites

2. "Don't get mad; get even."

3. "If you're going to die, take a lot of your enemies with you."

4. The only acceptable negative emotion for men is rage.

[The Straight Story]

21. I like the way you think - marry me

:)

[dustbunnie]

38. Well, I'm right behind you -

although it would be in a spiritual sense for me. :)

Much of it IS cultural.

- Most people who require mental health care don't get it in Canada either. Especially if they live in some godforsaken, isolated area, or are indigent. It's a myth that the homeless and very poor, the mentally ill, always get the care they need in Canada. Much of that is because they just don't seek it out.

- Many of the immigrants to Canada are Asian or from the Middle East these days. Not really the kind of people who come from the "gun-totin' f*ck you up" kind of cultures. Much of Canada is homogeneous however... as soon as you leave the large urban centers.

- People do own guns in Canada, but there are rules as to how you may own them. Locked up, ammo separate, etc. That old adage "guns don't kill people, people do" works in Canada as well. Except they've finished it with the line "yes, which is why dumbass people shouldn't own guns."

- That being said, people are murdered of course, there are serial killers, wife killers, husband killers etc. There seems to be much less media coverage of the average murder, and inclimate weather/wide open space may have something to do with the stats as well.

[SammyWinstonJack]

25. All true.

[tjwash]

28. Oh man...did you happen to catch Geraldo the other night?

What a tool. Geraldo wanted to dazzle everyone with his particular brand of "investigative journalism."

Excuse me....
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I'm sorry, where was I?

Oh yeah...anyhoo, he was listing all the shootings in the last 6 months and making the 1 connection that links them all. Outraged and disgusted he was. Just mad as hell over all the selfish bastards out there who were all upset they had lost their jobs, health insurance, and all visible means to support their families and loved ones.

That definite mean and dumb streak in this country is actually fed and promoted by pea-brained shitheads like Geraldo and Bill-O, but any lunkhead that takes that shit as anything other than fluffed out filler between commercial breaks is in serious need of having their noggins looked at.

[ConcernedCanuk]

24. I'm 58, lived in Canada for 57 of those years, only knew ONE person who owned handguns.

.

He was a collector, with a very special permit, and a severe background check to even BE a collector.

Still

he could NOT carry, and had to be stored in a specific manner.

Regular citizens rarely own handguns, and those of us with rifles like myself, do not think of them as a defense thing,

they are for hunting and target shooting.

The only other people I've seen with handguns are our police, who still must store them at home in a very secure manner, trigger locks, unloaded, and ammunition stored(locked) in a different location.

I've lived in Toronto , our largest city, and in communities as small as 100.

I don't believe the 12% claim one wee bit.

[The Straight Story]

29. well you are missing the main problem here

The people you knew obeyed the law.

People here don't :)

[ConcernedCanuk]

30. UMMMM - what makes you think I didn't, and don't know people up here who break the law?

.
.
.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SurfingScientist]

40. Here is what we have just discussed elsewhere...

... mental health programs are important to prevent homicide in the first place, but we also need a nationwide program that does not allow people with certain mental conditions to buy firearms. Here are 2 posts with some information about Tennessee that I found really interesting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3817540&mesg_id=3817683
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3817540&mesg_id=3817834

[sarcasmo]

46. I think anyone of the Scandinavian countries would be a great place to live.

[imdjh]

51. When I see ice and snow on TV it makes me want to turn the AC off. n/t

[Bonn1997]

49. "there were an average of 2.67 firearms in one of every four Canadian Households"

WTF does that mean? Is that like 0.67 firearms per household? (2.67/4)

[dustbunnie]

50. I think it means that one in four households -

owns two to three weapons. Most of those are hunting rifles, but also shotguns and handguns.

[Bonn1997]

52. Yeah, that makes sense. It could have been worded better though.