Old guy, back in school update. Sad day

[MichaelHarris]

Washington State University is facing the deepest budget cuts it has ever seen. The Arts Humanities well see the most pain. Today teachers, students, and families met on the mall and marched to the President's office. For those who know me, know I never move without a camera. I'll start with the march. you would think art instructors would make better signs, I saw some made with pizza boxes. On a high note, I'll end with African dance in the Student Center. Art's highs and lows.


Jobs on the line


Making a point in the rain


The University President looks on


Children are not immune

Some reports have said that Washington State faces the largest cuts in the nation.

[Davis_X_Machina]

1. I don't think there'll be...

...a humanities department at a state university in thirty years.

They're not 'cost-effective'.
They're not 'revenue-generating'.
They don't 'stand on their own bottom'.
They're not 'grant magnets'.
They don't spawn 'public-private partnerships'.

A university that is first and foremost an industrial training school does all of those things.

Oh, well -- considering Bologna, and the Sorbonne, and Oxford, and such were all opened in the twelfth and thirteenth century, I suppose seven or eight centuries was about all the run we could expect.

[customerserviceguy]

2. May I ask

where you think the jobs are going to be for those arts graduates? Is it possible that we already have plenty of people with those skills in our society today?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. The jobs aren't the point

Until 25 years ago, companies gladly hired liberal arts graduates. They prospered, because the system produced executives who could see the world beyond their spreadsheets. It was assumed that a college graduate knew history, literature, political science, the arts, and other things that make us CIVILIZED as opposed to mere empty-headed consumers.

Also, there are far more jobs in the arts than there are in professional sports. Ever heard of commercial artists, studio musicians, and regional actors? I know plenty of people who make all or part of their living in the arts. Perhaps universities should dump professional sports instead of the arts, since pro sports entice young people from poor families with dreams of major league success only to chew them up and spit them out, often without a degree, after four years.

[customerserviceguy]

7. Agreed

there should be liberal arts training in schools to round people out, but the water company I work for really doesn't care that I acted in a Shakespeare play back in high school, or that I took a comparative religions class at the university. They're much more interested in the accounting, business law, and computer classes I took, and they're way more interested in the people skills I've acquired along the way that help me to deal with people who have a water bill and have lost jobs.

As for professional sports, I agree, there's a dead end for a lot of would-be pampered professional athletes. But at least sports are a way to a college education for people who could afford it no other way, and they often do pay their way with alumni who buy tickets. Just because there are student-athletes who are focused only on the big bucks rather than the education doesn't mean that it's not worthwhile to make that opportunity available.

[lastliberalintexas]

23. Who says the point of education is to train you for a job?

You are starting with a false premise, which is why you end up with the wrong answer.

[Irreverend IX]

43. Higher education is sold to people as job training.

Most kids who graduate high school and go to college do it because they think it'll get them a better job. There aren't many people who are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and put themselves into decades' worth of debt so that they can become more cultured. Students pay that kind of money in hopes that their job opportunities will be better, so it's unfortunate but understandable that arts are a secondary concern for them. I think the existing education system could mostly be replaced with interactive online learning programs that have the same job training value but aren't so insanely expensive.

[customerserviceguy]

64. OK, fair enough

but maybe a job would be useful to pay back all those student loans you accumulate on the way to getting that education.

Or maybe you think that working families should have their taxes raised in troubled times just to fund the study of African dance by a few million students. There's a quick way to put the Repukes back in power!

[Hardrada]

51. Actually around about 1972 was when I noticed the fact

that liberal arts degrees were not in demand. The degrees to get one hired were biz or engineering. I finally said "fuck this noise" and went into business for myself.

[Davis_X_Machina]

5. You can never have too many educated people.

The guy next to me at my high school Greek teacher's testimonial, graduate of the same Greek program as me, has been a Saab mechanic on the Cape for thirty years. Does his Greek make him a bad mechanic? Should he not be allowed to fix cars?

And the guy next to him was a retired SUNY professor.

The education isn't the job. The job isn't the man.

[customerserviceguy]

8. In good times, I can see the point

But right now, it seems that we are in times that make for harder choices. Shall we raise taxes on people who are already struggling to stay in their homes so that we can produce people who speak dead languages, or incomprehensible artworks?

[ColbertWatcher]

11. It's not an either-or proposition.

And it's not honest to pretend that it is.

[customerserviceguy]

12. A lot of households are facing either-or propositions these days

and a lot of state and local governments are, too. Only the Federal Government can write blank checks for whatever it wants. And that's only as long as people overseas are willing to cover those overdrafts.

[ColbertWatcher]

15. Fair enough, but the education example in the OP is not an either-or proposition. n/t

[girl gone mad]

16. Larry Summers, is that you?

Look at Apple. They make some of the best products around today. Engineering isn't what makes them great, good design is. That requires artistic skill. Innovations like Twitter and Facebook require creativity and social skills, the tech is secondary.

People are struggling to stay in their homes because our colleges produced far too many MBAs and the system became too heavily weighted towards finance. These supposed geniuses innovated themselves right out of business using complex Ponzi schemes and bad lending practices because they had no common sense on the whole. Unfortunately, they took the rest of us down with them.

[customerserviceguy]

20. If Apple, Twitter and Facebook

are the best examples you can come up with from the top of your head, then my argument looks even more solid than I thought. The vast majority of computer users do NOT use Apples, and those silly iPods are just overhyped versions of things I can get for a tenth of the price. They're pretty much like running shoes that some athlete gets paid to shill for over a hundred bucks, that really don't last any longer than the cheap ones I get on the bargain table over at Big 5.

Twitter and Facebook are just fads, neither one has a business model that has made a dollar of profit. As soon as they start charging for what they do (what is that, really?) people will find the next free sites that do the same thing.

I don't think we need more MBA's either, or lawyers for that matter. It might be nice to have more nurses and other health professionals, that's one job category you can always find work in, in any city that I've ever checked the want ads in the paper.

[EmilyAnne]

27. Wow! I think you completely missed girl gone bad's points.

Of course, since you seem to be an anti-Mac crusader, it makes sense that you would immediately jump to a particular conclusion, triggered by the word "Apple".
She was talking about sweeping innovations.
Apple, Twitter, Facebook, regardless of their silliness or usefulness to you, are vital parts of the Information Age.

[customerserviceguy]

62. Nope, not an "anti-Mac" crusader

but that does sound like something that a person who worships at the temple of Jobs would say. I just observed that the vast majority of computer users don't use Macs, they use PC's. If you have statistical evidence to refute that, I'm certainly willing to consider it.

And as for the iPod, what makes their electronic gadget worth any more than the generic MP3 players out there for a tiny fraction of the cost? It's the same thing that makes a pair of 'designer' jeans cost more than J. C. Penneys "Plain Pockets" from years ago. If all the cool kids have something, then it's worth more. That's just the essense of conspicuous consumption, and I don't buy into it.

Apple is just a bit player, they're not 'vital'. And we'll see just how 'vital' the social networking sites are the day they start charging for services. My guess is that most people will either figure out how to get along before they existed, or will just switch to the new free alternatives that will still exist. I use AVG's free antivirus, mainly because it doesn't involve the bloatware that McAfee and Norton have, but as soon as they start charging for it for personal use, I'll be more than happy to switch to the next up-and-coming software company that's willing to give it away for nothing.

Oh, I suppose the cool kids will still Twitter and Facebook and MySpace and all the rest, if those places are able to brand themselves as being famous just because they're famous. That was Paris Hilton's strategy, wasn't it?

[customerserviceguy]

63. No, not an "anti-Mac crusader"

but that does sound like something that a person who worships at the temple of Jobs would say. I just observed that the vast majority of computer users don't use Macs, they use PC's. If you have statistical evidence to refute that, I'm certainly willing to consider it.

And as for the iPod, what makes their electronic gadget worth any more than the generic MP3 players out there for a tiny fraction of the cost? It's the same thing that makes a pair of 'designer' jeans cost more than J. C. Penneys "Plain Pockets" from years ago. If all the cool kids have something, then it's worth more. That's just the essense of conspicuous consumption, and I don't buy into it.

Apple is just a bit player, they're not 'vital'. And we'll see just how 'vital' the social networking sites are the day they start charging for services. My guess is that most people will either figure out how to get along before they existed, or will just switch to the new free alternatives that will still exist. I use AVG's free antivirus, mainly because it doesn't involve the bloatware that McAfee and Norton have, but as soon as they start charging for it for personal use, I'll be more than happy to switch to the next up-and-coming software company that's willing to give it away for nothing.

Oh, I suppose the cool kids will still Twitter and Facebook and MySpace and all the rest, if those places are able to brand themselves as being famous just because they're famous. That was Paris Hilton's strategy, wasn't it?

[EmilyAnne]

26. Excellent points! My husband went to a state school on scholarship to major in violin performance.

He was an incredible player and took advantage of every guest conductor/ composer.
He played in a very challenging university ensemble whose concerts were always able to fill an auditorium.
Of course, nothing like the glorious football team with their $93 million dollar stadium renovations.
The football players had walnut lockers, personal tutors who literally walked the players to each class and sat next to them taking their notes.
They had saunas and massage therapists.
My husband practiced in a mildewed basement space that had cigarette burned carpet from the years before campus smoking bans.
But, nevertheless, he excelled.

Now, he is an information architect/ technology designer.
He received another round of funding (today, actually, which is a huge surprise) to continue developing a series of interchangeable energy modulators.
As a technological moron, I am unable to explain it in any detail.
One of the cool things it can do is turn off certain energy hogging appliances at night or when they are not used.
In a home, it would be like going around and unplugging everything, which is great.
When used by a university, a company, an automotive factory, etc. it can save a tremendous amount of money and energy.

My point is that while my husband got a fine arts degree, he didn't pursue a job in that field.
There is a relationship between music and math that he attests to that put him on this career path
There are similar relationships between the humanities and other careers that require critical thinking.

There are a lot of degreed computer scientists and MBAs who have never cultivated any sort of creative thinking, so their problem solving skills are pretty much set in stone.
I think that is why so many of the ivy league MBAs were not able to respond to the emerging realities of the economy that suggested that maybe, just maybe, something was WRONG.
They aren't necessarily stupid and maybe not completely consumed with greed. They just have a very inflexible way of approaching problems.
Of course, as you brilliantly stated, the ones who did innovate did so in very reckless, selfish ways.
Maybe they could have used a bit of exposure to the HUMANities. You know, to maybe provoke them into giving a shit about their fellow Humans.

I think liberal arts/ fine arts education can foster a vital sort of creative thinking that can be used in countless fields.

And there's nothing wrong with a career in the arts, either.
The guy in your icon, as troubled as parts of his legacy are, was not just a pioneer in music.
He introduced a lot of sheltered, suburban teenagers to such concepts as gay rights, animal rights and women's rights.
He also influenced a huge part of a generation to stop giving a shit about superficial things like expensive cars and clothes, to stop judging people based on appearances.
A pretty big middle finger to the Reagan/Bush years, if you ask me.
And he didn't have a degree in communications or political science.

[ColbertWatcher]

28. I hope he still plays!

There's nothing more tragic than an artist involuntarily "retiring."

[EmilyAnne]

35. That's sweet! He does still play, very beautifully. But, its for me, his friends, himself.

His decision to change fields was deliberate, fortunately.
He decided that spending his life trying to hold on to a choice seat in an orchestra would not be very fulfilling.
It is for a lot of orchestra players, of course.
He always had other interests that would take a back seat to practice.
He taught himself HTML, CSS and other wed design.
He made a portfolio, got a few jobs, kept learning, won some awards, kept learning, ended up getting a job offer out of the blue at one of the most innovative small technology design firms in the world.
Now, he has branched off to start an offshoot company which means he is technically a CEO. We laugh our asses over that title all the time because, well, he's a pretty broke CEO to rides his bike to work from our tiny rented apartment.

I know he doesn't regret his decision, but he can get really nostalgic when we make it to the symphony.
He sometimes wonders what it would take to get that good again, if it is even possible at this point.
So, you're right. It would be very tragic if this was an involuntary decision.
A good friend, a cellist, crushed her hand in a car accident years ago and that has been devastating because she never even considered a career outside of music.

[ColbertWatcher]

46. I'm glad to hear he chose to do so. n/t

[1]

32. "There are a lot of degreed computer scientists and MBAs who have never cultivated any sort of..."

yes. true. and there are plenty of violin players in the subways...

what does your anecdotal story say about education? some will succeed no matter what? some will fail no matter what?

was there something else i missed in it?

[EmilyAnne]

41. The integration of disciplines?

Its a personal anecdote, of course, but as my husband travels to more and more technology design conferences, he is always coming back with another story of someone with a surprising and seemingly incongruous educational background.

Many professors I know have talked about certain star students who made surprising career choices.

Another anecdote: I have a friend with a PhD in Communications who did her dissertation on Mods, arguing that this was the first true youth movement and was a response to the gloom of WWII that blanketed parts of Europe well into the 60s.
She is now working on a government funded research project about successfully integrating ex-gang members into a society in which gangs are still a very visible part.

All of this reminds me of the age old debate about "pure science" vs. "applied science."
Basically, the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake vs. the pursuit of knowledge to solve practical problems.

As far as some succeeding and some failing no matter what...
I think maybe you are focusing on a particular definition of "success" a bit more than I was in my post.
Is my husband a success?
Who knows?
We have a roof over our heads and food in the fridge. So far so good.
But its not over yet.
If he was called before some sort of academic court to defend the value of his scholarship, could he do it?
He's not a professional violinist, so maybe not.
Maybe, on such terms, he is a "failure"?

As far as the violinists in the subways, have you ever asked them their stories?
You may be surprised.
A lot of them probably didn't have much formal training.
Other may be like my husband who would make quite a bundle while he was a student.
He could get some practice in, share some pretty music and get enough tips to buy a few beers.
Not bad.
He actually paid his way through Germany like this, minus the plane ticket.

[1]

42. don't take me wrong. i love your stories.

i think your stories should be trumpeted through out the land!

your stories should be the stories people hear about!

i love your stories...

[EmilyAnne]

56. Why, thank you, kind sir. I am quite flattered. Would you believe that I have a double majored

Would you believe that I double majored in Molecular Archaeology and Comparative Third Wave Chinese Literature!

Little ole storytellin' me!
It just goes to show ya'!

I'll PM you with my top secret identity because I am a highly respected and successful story teller/ academic.
I know you will want to read all of my work.

[1]

57. i think you are taking my posts wrong. i wasn't insulting you in any way. don't be that way...

[Hardrada]

52. We had a whole string quartet get on our S-Bahn train in Berlin

and they played Haydn for a few euros. And this was last summer in wealthy and cultured Berlin!!

[Irreverend IX]

47. Some of the most creative people and best designers I've known...

Including some in the IT industry, never had any formal education past high school. Education doesn't give you the creativity to come up with something like Facebook or Twitter, and the technology is a very important part of those services; there are a lot of hard choices to be made when you're putting together the inner workings of a web application.

[cobalt1999]

60. A Liberal Arts degree does mean one is creative, nor does an Engineering degree mean one isn't

There are plenty bright and creative types in ALL fields of study.

You are just stereotyping people and it's one that is proven wrong daily.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. World of difference between being educated and being schooled

The techie types tend to be heavily on the schooled side. The good part is that most of them can get good jobs, even today. The down side is that they are lousy to hang out with and talk about things outside of the techie world. This is not news. My dad used to make that complaint many years ago about his MD peers.

The liberal arts types can talk about most topics and whine about there not being jobs for well educated people like themselves that do not involve taking orders for pizza or french fries. That is a good description of my mothers a a couple of my siblings.

There is a balance in there somewhere. Not sure how we move toward it.

[Mithreal]

45. Great point. nt

[Mithreal]

39. Is education for the individual or to serve the employer master?

To me, being a Democrat is about empowering people to meet their personal goals and live their PERSONAL potential.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. The bean counters have taken over higher education

They've swallowed the Reagan-era nonsense about how universities should be run like businesses and that departments must be able to prove their worth with numbers.

The scientific and vocational departments can point to grants received or graduates placed in high-paying jobs.

The arts and humanities take huge hits because they rarely get grants, so departments are abolished (Art? Who needs that?), and retiring professors are replaced by three adjuncts, none of whom gets even 1/3 of a full-time beginning professor's pay, and certainly no benefits.

If I were Higher Education Czarina, I would completely reorganize the colleges and universities, leaving business courses in the community colleges and putting everyone who wanted a four-year degree through a two-year humanities program in world civilizations.

American business prospered in an era when almost no one majored in business administration. Our economic downfall has occurred about 25 years after corporations began hiring only business and finance majors.

[DemBones DemBones]

10. Excellent points. When I was in high school, you

went to college to learn, to business school if you just wanted business skills. There were no business courses in colleges. And, like many before me, I picked up business skills quickly on the job when I needed them.

[1]

22. but a college is a business, right? people work there. they expect paychecks. that's a business...

right?

there are those that teach. they deserve a paycheck, right?

there are those that clean up the place. they deserve a paycheck, right?

there are those that administer the day to day operations. they deserve a paycheck, right?

there are those that cook and serve the food. they deserve a paycheck, right?

this sounds like a business to me. how is this not a business?


even if all the "business" related curriculum were banished to community colleges... how would you, Higher Education Czarina, keep you pure little university in operation?

not running it like an actual business and all...

i eagerly await for your response.

[Raineyb]

61. Higher education is part of the commons, or at least it should be

As such it ought not be treated as a mere business proposition with its profitability determining what is and is not taught.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this mindset?

Regards

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. I have a huge problem with the "college as business" model

It's an example of the pig-headed, inhuman MBA mindset that has poisoned every area of American life.

A college's "product" is people, and people are not widgets with one function. Under the business model, you can graduate someone who does amazing (and not always legal and ethical) things with a spreadsheet but is a failure as a human being, because he treats his employees like dirt, offers inferior products for the highest possible price, and knows and appreciates nothing outside his pathetic little world except what's in the mass media.

[progressoid]

6. Wow - I had no idea. I worked there part time in the 80's

Found a couple links about it.

http://www.dailyevergreen.com/story/28322

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2009/03/30/4095891.htm

[cobalt1999]

9. In a competitive world, Universities should be the last place to cut funding.

However, IF IF IF a University HAS TO make a choice to cut something, better a humanities program than a science or engineering program.

[dysfunctional press]

13. "you would think art instructors would make better signs..."

bingo.

they aren't helping their cause any with the pedestrian quality of their signs...

The medium IS the message -Marshall McLuhan

[Hannah Bell]

14. yeah, if only the signs were more professional, the programs would be saved.

it's all about the signs.

[dysfunctional press]

18. apparently they seem to think so...

otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to bring them at all. :shrug:

[1]

17. i know where they could get some inspiration. i saw it on a matchbook cover...

[ColbertWatcher]

21. Maybe the English majors made the signs?

BTW, the medium is the message, which is why they were made on pizza boxes.

If the signs were made to look professionally crafted, the message would have been that they have enough money purchase the best materials, the money to pay for ink, paint and the time to dedicate to designing a PR campaign.

Signs made from pizza boxes says "I didn't have time between finding out I'm going to lose my job and going to a protest about it."

Just like everyone else in the country.

At least they're all spelled correctly.

[MichaelHarris]

24. I agree

When I saw the "crudeness" I came to the same conclusion.

[EmilyAnne]

30. Thank you! What an intelligent response. I'm almost stunned.

Let me guess.
You're not an MBA, are you?

[ColbertWatcher]

33. Shh! n/t

[dysfunctional press]

34. to me signs on pizza boxes says something totally different....

toward the end of the sign-making party, they decided that they still needed more signs, and all the pizza had been eaten(except for most of the half-veggie half-anchovy...whose idea was that?) so someone decided to use the pizza boxes to make more signs.

i still would expect much better from any self-respecting art department.

[ColbertWatcher]

48. Anything better would have cost more. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

54. but they do have better ones, too...

so they obviously had plenty of materials- some of them even have their sticks painted white where they're attached to the signs.

the pizza boxes seem like half-hearted after thoughts at best.

[ColbertWatcher]

58. Meh. n/t

[EmilyAnne]

29. Then again....

the thick marker on found cardboard reminds me of the iconic unemployed guy on the side of the road with the crappy "will work for food."
So, if the medium is the message...

[dysfunctional press]

31. since the signs were done on pizza boxes- they obviously have food...

and the sign says 'save our jobs'- so they already have work.

but black marker makes them reminiscent of the "will work for food guy" ???

[EmilyAnne]

53. Come on. Reused? Cardboard? Hello? Do you know what the word "reminiscent" means?

There seems to be a lot of hostility towards university educated people on this thread.

[dysfunctional press]

55. reminiscent...? like in "reminds me of"...?

my only problem is with art teachers with shoddy signage.

i mean- don't they have any self-respect?

[1]

19. just raise tuition to cover the shortfall. problem solved...

[Mithreal]

25. Education is supposed to be the highest priority in our state.

Would be nice some day if we acted like it.

I am for a small progressive state income tax to fund education only while the economy works itself out over the next decade or so. WA state politicians don't have the courage though and education funding will remain inadequate until enough of us demand otherwise.

I stand in solidarity. And I will continue to push for adequate education funding every other time I call and visit my state senator and legislators.

[1]

36. "Education is supposed to be the highest priority in our state." WTF?

can your provide a link or a quote or a reference of any kind to back that statement up?

in my experience, education is something tolerated and barely financed by any state i have ever lived in.

if your state is different, i want to move there. i want to pay my tax dollars to that state. i'd love to meet this state...


what state is this?

[Mithreal]

37. WA State Constitution

ARTICLE IX
EDUCATION

SECTION 1 PREAMBLE. It is the paramount duty of the state to make ample provision for the education of all children residing within its borders, without distinction or preference on account of race, color, caste, or sex.

http://www.leg.wa.gov/LawsAndAgencyRules/constitution.htm

That's ok, we don't really mean it.

[1]

40. ok. cool. but "ample provision" does not equal "highest priority in our state"...

you get that, right?

you know. words and their meanings and all...

[Mithreal]

44. Alright, paramount duty not highest priority, I concede, you are right.

Doesn't stop my legislators from saying it is the state's highest priority though.

[1]

49. nor does it stop you, my friend, from proving to your state legislature that it is not ...

your highest priority.

fight the good fight.

carry on with what you believe in.

don't stop!

[eridani]

50. We also have no income tax, and a very regressive sales tax

Politicians too gutless to do what needs to be done.

[northernlights]

59. their "core curriculum" is science, not business

I think most state universities started out as aggie schools. If you look at WSU's program offerings, over half of undergrad degrees offered are in science and by the time you get to PhD it's largely biological research.

I know my university is going through the same thing. Massive, last minute budget cuts -- the state ordered them to return a large chunk of *this year's* budget. So they are forced to go back to their core.

They simply don't have the enrollment to support degrees in the arts.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. Yes, Oregon State is the same way, but there is stupidity even in dealing with the sciences

such as defining a department's "worth" strictly by the number of grants it brings in and cutting back on the math department because it doesn't receive many grants.

Every scientist and engineer needs math, sometimes a lot of it, and Oregon State was cutting back on the math department?

Besides, when it comes to deciding which departments to cut, I'm sure that business will be spared.

[Spike89]

67. True worth is a smorgasbord

That is exactly what made an American-style college education the model of the world. It has never been about narrowing focus or training specifically for one job. The problem with the "practical" vocational approach is that it produces people only capable of doing exactly what they've been trained for. They aren't nearly as likely to innovate or adapt to new technologies. The reality is that the world isn't (and never has) been divided into neat academic fields. It is horribly interconnected and incredibly multidisciplinary. Perhaps, we don't need more art majors in the economy, but we certainly need art training and understanding in every graduate in every subject.

I don't want the doctor that knows every procedure in the universe, but can't relate to my humanity. I want the one that understands that although science is important, it may not be the sole point in determining the treatment that will improve my quality of life.