Merit pay opponents:

[damonm]

OK, folks:

LOTS has been said on this board against the notion of Merit pay for teachers, and I'm not going to rehash them here.
What I DO want are YOUR ideas. You think merit pay is a bad idea? Fine. What do YOU suggest, and why would it work?

[Clintonista2]

1. How about we pay ALL teachers more?

Better pay usually translates into better work. The amount we pay to teachers compared with other professionals is abysmal.

[Fresh_Start]

18. more pay does not make for better work

if you are a professional you do professional quality work.

[pnwmom]

30. Higher salaries would draw more top students into the profession in the first place.

As it is, many capable people decide that the field doesn't offer enough pay, either initially or down the road.

[Fresh_Start]

74. I'm not even sure of that

because I think that at some level, the majority of people who chose teaching do so because they love teaching (or at least their vision of teaching)

Someone earlier in their thread said if we pay teachers more, they will work harder. If that were true, that would mean to me that we don't have the right people teaching.

Personally, I don't believe it. Teachers are a hardworking bunch. They are professionals, not people who are holding back 50% until the payout is better.

I'm perfectly happy with paying more for better trained teachers and for more teachers in the classroom. But there's no way that I believe that the bottom 20% of teachers should be rewarded as much as the top 20% of teachers.

And the BS arguments that it would pit teacher against teacher carries no weight with me. The majority of employed people are competing against others in the same or related fields. But people are not clubbing or poisoning people they are competing with. We have the emotional maturity to realize that competition is a fact of life (hell, you don't even have to be human since there is competition in other species). And most employment requires cooperation between employees: its not only teachers who are relying on others in their workplace. We all do.

[pnwmom]

76. We're not surprised when people enter other fields because they like the

work AND they want to make money.

Why should we assume that it's different for teachers?

Why should someone who likes math and science, for example, go into teaching when s/he can find another enjoyable job using those skills that will pay 2 or 3 times as much?

[Fresh_Start]

77. if you really like math and science....

you want to do math and science, not teach basic math and science over and over again.

Now you can persuade someone who has already achieved their math and science goals, to go into the classroom and inspire the next generation.

But teaching elementary school or high school isn't a dream job for someone who wants a career in math or science.

[pnwmom]

93. Teaching high school isn't a dream job? All the more reason to increase the pay.

That is, if you want to have a math or science teacher who can actually keep up with the best students -- while being creative at reaching students the students at the lower end.

Anyone who teaches high school math, especially at the pre-calculus or calculus level, won't be a good math teacher unless s/he really enjoys math, too. Because s/he is bound to have some top math students who will challenge their teacher's math skills.

And a teacher like that has many other higher-paying options.

[JackDragna]

96. I love math and science..

..and I've done research, too. I teach secondary science now. I have a colleague who used to do research and veterinary work. Some of us are out there because we've seen what happens when problems with math and science are left to fester until the kids hit the big time.

[Fresh_Start]

132. you are exactly my point

you've already done your research and satisfied some math or science goals.
And then you migrated to teaching.

Which is what I've seen with my peers who were also driven to a math/science career.
After 10-20 years, they look at teaching for a different type of satisfaction.

[Realityhack]

128. I am not sure that is the issue.

Say you do want to teach. And you love science so you got a physics degree. Then you start looking at your options.

You could teach. You would love the work. But an industry firm offers you 2-3 times the pay for something that is just as rewarding in a different way.

[Fresh_Start]

133. teaching (elementary/secondary) is nothing like research

and most people who want to do research are not the personalities that want to teach

[Realityhack]

146. That misses the point.

It isn't about people who want to do research.
My point was that people who would prefer to teach. Who want to teach...
might settle for a job they are not as satisfied with because of the difference in pay.

I know people who were in exactly that situation. They wanted to teach (one taught part time for a community college) but could not afford to do so full time even though they wanted to.

I don't expect to attract people who would prefer research to teaching. Nor would that be good. But low pay can drive people away from something they would otherwise prefer.

[Realityhack]

127. I think that depends largely upon what sub-group of teachers.

For example high schools have a very hard time attracting people with degrees in science, math, and history.
In the case of a high school physics teacher... more pay might well provide the needed incentive for someone to enter the field. I remember part time college professors I had who would have taught full time if they could afford it. A science or math degree has high earning potential outside of teaching. Paying more might entice more people to try teaching.

OTOH higher pay might be much less of an attraction when seeking elementary school teachers.

I do know however that a number of teachers I had and worked with when I was working in the field had money issues because of their choice to teach. And while they loved teaching some had to pick up second jobs, or leave the field to make ends meet.

[Ken Burch]

79. More respect would help

It's time that people stop acting like ALL the teachers out there are screwups. The problem teachers are a tiny minority of the whole, and the rest are doing the best they can under trying conditions.

It takes as much work to become a teacher as it does to become any other professional. Simply treating teachers with the respect given all other professionals(and, of course, much more than the "professionals" in the financial sector)would do wonders to improve the situation.

Smaller class sizes and more resources(new textbooks and enough textbooks for ALL the students, decent funding for the school lunch programs so that kids were actually alert enough to learn)and a few other things like that would help.

A general acceptance of the need for public education would do a lot too.

[Fresh_Start]

82. more respect would help

but that's true for almost all of us
Very few of us feel we are getting appropriate levels of respect.
Very few of us feel we have enough input into our work environments.
It's really not limited to the teaching profession.

I have a great deal of respect for teachers.
I've volunteered at school every year for the last 7 years.

Teachers have a tough time of it, from my perspective mostly because a small percentage of parents are delusional their child.
If parents were doing a better job of being parents, teachers would have an easier time being teachers.

[Hippo_Tron]

135. Respect can't be legislated

[Joe Fields]

36. really? The avg. pay for teachers in the U.S. is $50,000.00

Do teachers get into the profession for the money, or are they called to it?

[DemBones DemBones]

38. Nobody stays in teaching for the money.

Many leave because they can earn more elsewhere.

Also, school administrators are all people who wanted a bigger salary and less work than a classroom teacher.

[Joe Fields]

90. Okay. So then there should be no argument as to what teachers make, right?

That is, of course, as YOU say that teachers aren't in it for the money.

[DemBones DemBones]

106. See post 45 just below for a good answer. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Compared to other professions that require a college degree,

teacher pay is very low. I see teachers every year quit teaching and go to work in another profession making lots more than they did teaching. If you compare teacher pay to all other jobs it looks pretty good. But compared to other college grads it isn't all that high. We also tend to pay a lot more for benefits and insurance.

[Joe Fields]

49. then they got into the wrong profession in the first place.

if your in it for the money, then teaching is not for you.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

55. All people work for money. They don't do it for charity.

[Fresh_Start]

75. true enough

but people stay in their careers even though there is more money elsewhere because of the satisfaction they feel in what they can or do accomplish.

Hell, I'm 20 years with the same employer. If I job hopped, I'd be making double what I make. But I have a sense of accomplishment and enough job satisfaction, that I didn't chase the next bigger payout. Most of the professionals I work with have made the same choice.

[Realityhack]

129. Money will not make you happy... but...

lack of it can make you miserable.

No people do not go into teaching for the money. Nor is it a good idea if they do. But we should at least pay them enough that teachers who love teaching are not forced to leave the profession (or strongly encouraged to do so) for monetary reasons.

[Joe Fields]

85. So then, why teach.? Why not work at a convenience store?

[Telly Savalas]

59. So then are we supposed to drop teacher salaries to the federal poverty level

so we only attract folks who think teaching is their One True Calling?

[Joe Fields]

87. You have already proven in many other posts that you have no business

being in the teaching profession.

According to you, you are STUCK with kids. Go to work at a 7/11 convenience store.

[proud2BlibKansan]

153. And you have proven you hate teachers

:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. I don't know any teachers who are in it for the money

But I also don't think we should accept low wages for that reason.

[Joe Fields]

89. That "low wages" meme doesn't fly.

Teachers make good money. Better than what I earn.

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. Do you have a college degree?

Are you working in your field?

[Bill McBlueState]

140. You posted upthread that the average teacher makes $50,000

That means starting salaries are what, $30K? Abysmal compared to other professional work.

[proud2BlibKansan]

154. Yes about 30K

But there are many districts in my state that start closer to 20K.

Several years ago the state mandated a minimum starting salary and several districts had no teachers who earned even that much. I can't even imagine being in a job that requires a college degree and earning $20K after many years of experience.

[DemBones DemBones]

165. Ah, jealousy rears its ugly head. It's not easy being green.

Has it ever occurred to you that that $50,000 average salary you bring up is an average of some very high salaries from areas that fund schools well and some very low salaries from areas that don't fund schools well? Some teachers make 50K or more but most make less.

[DemBones DemBones]

105. No, people who really care about teaching

realize after a few years that a teacher's salary is not big enough and that they will have to go sell insurance or something else to support themselves and their family. They don't realize it going in or they wouldn't have jumped through all the hoops they had to jump through to get certified to teach.

It's not all about money, either. It's about it being a very demanding job for which there is little respect. We don't blame doctors when patients don't follow their treatment and get worse but teachers are blamed when students don't study and fail to learn.

A large percentage of teachers leave the profession after five years or less in the classroom.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

62. You are making the argument that teachers are not the brightest and best

and yet are demanding higher salaries. is that where you really want to go?

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. How the hell do you figure that?

They are not paid as well as their college educated peers. How does that mean they aren't the brightest or the best??

[anigbrowl]

78. Well, you're saying that a lot of people who can leave to make more, do so.

Think about it. If it's a bad thing that people leave the profession, it means the average quality must go down as a result. Now you could take the opposite tack and argue that those who don't leave are more committed to teaching, but in that case you should be happy to see people leaving because it proves they were only in it for financial gain rather than love of teaching.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

99. Alternatively, they were not able to make it in the outside world...

so they teach.

Not claiming that, but its just as valid a conclusion from the arguments presented...care needs to be taken...

[anigbrowl]

101. Yeah, I'm just pointing out the logical implications of the statement

I know, I'm a pedant.

[RobinA]

80. Gotta Disagree

There are plenty of college educated peers making less than teachers. Not saying they are overpaid, but seeing as how I make 25% less than the average teacher and I'm actually doing well in my field - paywise, I get a little tired of the teacher/pay argument

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. What fields?

Cause every ranking I have seen puts teachers on the bottom of the pay scale for college grads working in their field.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

100. What does a history major do in their field other than teach?

What about early childhood education, English, Philosophy, sociology, Physical Education...?

You can compare things like Math, Comp Sci, Chemistry, and Physics but not that many others

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. And Accounting, Nursing, Social Work, Speech Therapy, Occupational Therapy,

There's no shortage of college degrees that are not in education and lead to employment in fields other than education.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

148. Not the issue

Many people complain that teachers are underpaid. However, the BEST jobs that people can get in some disciplines is teaching. That means the teachers in those fields are actually well paid for their field.

A HS Comp Sci teacher, assuming they have a degree in that field, are underpaid compared to their peers in industry. However, they knew that when they went into HS teaching, and was a choice they made. There is no reason to peg their salary to programmers at Microsoft.


A person with an Education degree is by definition paid an appropriate wage since there is no comparison outside of education for them.

To compare someone with an MA in education vs a MS in Physics and claim that they should make about the same salary because they are both "professionals" is specious.

[DemBones DemBones]

107. Do you have to grade papers and do lesson plans at home

on weeknights and weekends? Call parents at night in your "free" time?

Good teachers do 12 months of work in 9 months.

[pnwmom]

94. And how many years of experience is average?

And what is the average entry salary? And how does that compare to other students with college degrees (or, in the case of my state, required Masters degrees)?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

134. Your argument is based on the concept that all college degrees are of equal value. They are not

A masters in philosophy or history is not the equal of one in physics or comp sci

[Bill McBlueState]

142. not equal by what metric?

I'm surprised to hear that the value of a degree depends on the field of study in some straightforward way.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

143. Economics

There are lots of liberal arts majors out there and few well paying jobs. Hiring one, even with advanced degrees should be less expensive than hiring someone with more scarce technical degrees.

[MadHound]

112. Gee, apparently you weren't in class when your teacher taught you the fallacy of averages

How averages can be skewed by a few outliers, etc. Or maybe you were, and this is why you're using this tactic here, in an attempt to bolster your hatred for the education for the teaching profession.

For instance, where I live, starting pay for teachers is $25,000. Darn those rich teachers, who making more than garbage men. Oh, wait, they're not. In fact they're making much less in terms of starting pay than not just garbage men, but virtually any other four year degree program, not to mention most technical college grads. After having to attend more classes then virtually any other degree program.

Nor do you mention the fact that those receiving the big bucks in the teaching field live in areas with high costs of living, so that fifty or sixty thousand really spends more like twenty or thirty thousand in other places. Also, why don't you do a year by year median study of salaries of comparable professions. Oh, that's right, you would find that teaching is by far the least well paid of any comparable profession.

Sorry, but this average tripe that you keep trumpeting about is nothing more than a smokescreen that you're putting up. And like I said earlier, this is probably something that you learned from a teacher. Way to repay the gratitude.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

136. And you must have not been there where basic economics was being taught

There is a very strong supply and demand aspect to teaching salaries. The NEA and state unions are holding to a model that losing ground every day. Not all disciplines are created equal. Pay should vary on specialty as well as education levels. Seniority should have a minor component at best.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

43. Teacher pay should be market based. More pay for more demanding degrees and skills

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

61. School districts will resort to not hiring these people with

more "demanding" degrees, if they can pay someone with a less "demanding" degree less money to do the same thing.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

63. That works until the less skilled people hired can not do the same job

My eldest daughter had a AP Comp Sci teacher who was teaching Java without teaching "classes" and other basics of object oriented programing. Prior year, no one in his classes got higher than a 2 on the exam. I pressed for his quals...turned out he was "cross trained" with the defense being teaching experience was more important than subject knowledge. Had he taken just a few community college level courses, he would have done adequately.

[msongs]

2. equitable distribution of resources & students by ability, required hours of parent involvement &

a guarantee that students are spending their fair share of time studying instead of doing other things. Since many students take and fail tests in languages they can neither read, speak, nor write, an adjustment for that. In other words, a re-creation of the system to eliminate all the variances that are beyond the control of any given teacher. And how bout some parent, administration, and student supported discipline while we're at it? And I don't mean punishment, I mean discipline, as in disciples, and not in the religious sense.

Those would be some good starts.

Msongs

[damonm]

4. OK,

That's wonderfully vague. How would we do this, specifically?

[Malikshah]

125. As for solutions and then complain about the lack of specifics even though they're given

Disingenuous much?

The poster is providing a number of issues that Merit Pay supporters tend to ignore.

[damonm]

158. OK...

Miss the point much?

The question I asked concerned the VERY vague discussion of discipline. As to the rest, I'm looking for more detail than the poster was giving.

[Oregone]

3. How about a bit of an opposite approach

Besides paying all teachers more, offer financial incentives for teachers to move to disadvantaged schools (schools that test low).

[damonm]

6. That could work, but

How then does one sort out good from bad among teachers? There are certainly both.

[Oregone]

8. Thats up to the administration and application process

But by offering higher pay, there would be more applicants per job, and a better selection of teachers to choose from.

Of course, both "good" and "bad" teachers would be attracted to it, but that is what interviews are for.

[DireStrike]

21. Yes, interviews, exactly.

Since Merit Pay supporters always say that the administrators can adequately judge their teachers, surely they can tell a good applicant from a bad one as well. Excellent point.

[cloudbase]

5. Good luck.

I tried that a couple of days ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5233235&mesg_id=5233235

Only one response. Obviously not enough responses to draw a firm conclusion, but what little there is is leading in the direction of concluding that people would rather complain than offer solutions.

[damonm]

9. At least we'll know who to take seriously, then... NT

[ColbertWatcher]

7. First off. This is no way to start a discussion.

"Merit" pay doesn't work. No one can prove it has or will work.

No one has to argue against it, because there is no data proving "merit" pay's "efficacy."

That said, in order to solve the problems with public education in the United States, we must do a few things first:

#1: get private corporations out of the discussions. Public schools are not businesses; privatizing public institutions DOES NOT WORK. Never has; never will.

#2: get all forms of superstition out of schools. Immediately. No questions asked.

#3: Teachers are professionals and should be treated as such. Maintain current credentialing and licensing procedures, give more weight to the solutions from the professionals in the classrooms. Reduce the number of administrators, use that money in the classrooms.

[damonm]

12. Try rereading the OP, for one.

I'm going on the assumption that Merit pay is a non-starter.
As to those who have spoken against it here - and there are many - I want to see THEIR ideas. K-12 is a mess - how do we fix it?

[ColbertWatcher]

35. I re-read the OP, especially the subject title.

I am now absolutely convinced "merit" pay will not work and starting a thread the way you did is still not a good way to start a serious discussion.

[damonm]

41. Well,

It seems at least 14 people disagree with you as to "No way to start a serious discussion", not counting me.

And just because it's a bad idea (which is where I tend to agree with you), doesn't mean there are no proponents for it, as your first response to me would indicate. There are proponents of merit pay and there are opponents. I've heard the pro-merit pay arguments, and don't like them much. So I want those who are against it to offer ideas that would work better.

[Malikshah]

126. I do not believe the OP wanted a serious discussion. Just another opportunity

to vainly attempt to shoot down those who realize that Merit Pay is not the panacea.

[damonm]

159. Then you believe wrongly.

But that's your option.

[Malikshah]

162. I would suggest proving it first. Thus far, it has been vague

statements in most cases, often negative to any solutions offered.

Negative naybobbery is not always the best way.

[Fire1]

13. +1

[DemBones DemBones]

15. Second that.

[ColbertWatcher]

33. Thank you! n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

32. THANK YOU! n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. Merit Pay is coming...educators need to get ahead on it

and work towards viable solutions. It going to be a reality soon in many areas.

While I am yet to see the a merit system I really like, the current industrial model is clearly going away

[Greyhound]

10. There are so many solutions, I've seen many offered here on DU,

which leads me to believe this is just a vanity post.

I've seen dozens of very successful experimental/pilot programs from all over the country that have achieved remarkable results for decades, yet none are ever discussed or implemented, proving that there is no real interest in improving the system, but merely in using it's continued failure as an excuse to get more money for those that benefit from the disaster.

[damonm]

11. Think again.

I haven't seen them - I'd like to.

[Greyhound]

88. OK, click on the search icon at the top of the page, then click on advanced

search. Enter keywords "education" or "merit" and select Big Forums, and start scanning.

Another great source is John Gatto, just ignore the end where he invariably goes off on his Christianity rants.

There is a wonderful primer on various systems and the history of the American system that was put together by Cerridwen, but I'll have to dig that one up for you. I'm busy packing for my move and don't have the time right now.

[damonm]

157. Thank you for the suggestions...

I'll look thru some of those. I need to get better informed on this issue than I am.
And good luck with your move - those can be rough.

[Greyhound]

103. Here's one of mine

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5235557&mesg_id=5236728

Not thorough, but a start.

[damonm]

156. That's got some merit - administration eats up a

large share of the budget here in CA - much to my frustation, as most of them seem wastes of space.

[FiveGoodMen]

14. I went to school in the '60s and '70s

Many teachers were good, many were bad.

There wasn't near as much homework.

We learned quite a bit just the same.

I suggest we just do that rather than 'fix' our way into a kind of child-prison-military-camp nightmare.

[DemBones DemBones]

16. I could write at least fifty pages on this

but I don't think you really want to hear from experienced teachers who know what's wrong with the system.

[damonm]

28. Then post a journal entry...

'cause if you think I don't want to hear from teachers on this, think again!
Have at it, and tell me why it would work! That's why I posted the question - I WANT ideas.
Geez, ya ask an honest question...:wow:

[noamnety]

17. Scarce resources need to be distributed based on student needs

not given out as bribes to teachers.

If you really want something that leaves no child left behind:

eliminate local city millages and have all schools in the state funded according to need, and drop this inequitable bs of having schools in rich neighborhoods have more resources than those in poorer neighborhoods.

Make all schools schools of choice, so that children whose parents can only afford to live in poverty-stricken neighborhoods aren't legally prevented from going to schools that already have the basics (nonleaking roofs, heat, electricity, textbooks).

Give all students at least a portion of the day where they are grouped by ability, so gifted children aren't shortchanged while teachers focus their efforts on trying to get lower test achievers to the point where they can pass high-stakes testing for AYP.

Offer bilingual education for kids who need it, so they aren't stuck losing a year or two of education in all the content areas while they struggle to learn functional English.

Go to year round schooling - the same overall amount of time off is fine, but stagger it throughout the year better. Our kids aren't needed to help with the harvests any more, it's ridiculous that our educational calendars still revolves around that requirement, when the result is that they lose a huge amount of info during the summer.

Drop the teaching to the test crap (drop high stakes testing, in other words) and go to authentic projects and authentic testing. I don't need a kid who can answer multiple choice questions about rulers on a worksheet. I need a kid who can measure a business card or a picture frame in the real world.

Take all that testing money, can the tests, and redirect it toward funding a real world project for each school during a short summer semester that would be a practicum where they can demonstrate the skills they learned in the real world. That way we're spending the resources we have on something that creates meaning from their knowledge and is student based, rather than flushing our resources down the toilet. In other words figure out what our priority is - teaching students how to apply knowledge in the real world, or proving on paper to a third party that the kids have knowledge? Spend our resources on the learning process itself.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. $100,000 per year for teachers, starting salary.

Across all districts, along with equal funding for all supplies and facilities.

Elimination of NCLB.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. For a liberal arts BA? Are you farking nuts?

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

56. That is a bit too much..

BTW, my husband is a high school computer science teacher and he has a BS degree in Computer Engineering. Not all teacher's have liberal arts degrees.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. The majority of teachers have liberal arts or other non technical degrees

and those are not worth nearly as much in the marketplace as technical degrees. I see no compelling reason for person with a PhD in Philosophy or Sociology to get paid more than someone with a BS in Computer Engineering.

CS and CE major teaching HS is rare. More might be available if we dropped the industrial model and went to market skills for salaries

[noamnety]

124. Might be worth looking at why those degrees are worth less.

Makes a statement about what we value in our society - caring for people = less money than caring for business.

The irony here is that we want teachers who are well-rounded, who are good at math, history, literature, all sorts of things. But then we they get degrees which represent a well-rounded education instead of a highly specialized one, we tell them that's why they are worth less.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

138. Its free choice and market forces at work

Lots of people with liberal arts degrees and few jobs. Fewer people with scientific and technical degrees and more jobs. Strong gender aspect to this as well.

[DireStrike]

20. Schools should not be funded locally, for one.

Private schools should be few and far between, for two.

Allow the rich to opt out of the public school system and you will wind up with tiered education that fails the majority.

This is the same mistake that has been made for the past 30 years regarding everything else - treating the government as if it cannot do anything, saying that equitable treatment of everyone is unfair because some people have more money and therefore deserve better treatment. People who send their kids to private schools should be jeered 95% of the time. If you want religious education, send the kids after school or on sunday.

I propose federal funding for schools and social ostracization of those that refuse to partake in the public school system. Obamas included.

[Fresh_Start]

22. Agree, schools should not be funded locally

having an educated populace is a national concern, not a local concern

[ProgressiveProfessor]

144. Been done in CA, not much impact on the disparities

Money alone is not the solution

[damonm]

160. VERY true -

CA is proof that the "throw money at it" method doesn't work too well - especially when precious little of that money actually makes it to the schools.

[fed_up_mother]

24. Man, this is such a freedom loving site!

Every time I read a post like yours I feel a little bit freer.

:(

[DireStrike]

34. That's awesome.

Why do I hate freedom? Because I say that people who decide to pull out of society should be socially penalized?

Freedom is being allowed to do things. It is not being allowed to do things without consequences.

My proposal would affect freedom only if I suggested that those who opted out of the public school system be locked up or otherwise LEGALLY punished.

[fed_up_mother]

37. Your idea of freedom is seriously warped in my opinion

And, yes, I do realize that some others here will agree with you.

If you want to live a different life - that's ok as long as you aren't "rich" and living a different life in a private school? I mean...if you want to get stoned every night that should be your right, but if you want to send your kids to private school, you should be ostracized? Which other behaviors might you want to punish?

I'm just asking for verification. How much lockstep do you require of your comrades? What behaviors are socially acceptable and should be rewarded, and what behaviors should be "ostracized?

Geesh One thing I am certain - folks on the left and right can be equally scary.

[DireStrike]

39. I don't see how anyone could disagree.

There are some things that we are all in together. "Opting out" of them is great for the person opting out, but damaging to those who do not, or more likely CAN not.

[fed_up_mother]

40. I'm not a communist so I don't agree.

My view of the world is more like socialist Europe where we have better safety nets for the poor, healthcare, education, etc. but still great personal freedom to do what you would like.

I don't abide by the belief that if everything isn't equal, life isn't just. I believe life is just if we lift folks up to an appropriate level so that they can then work and aspire to do even better. I refuse to live my life through the lens of class envy and hatred.

(And, yeah, that title was to get a rise out of you. haha.)

Peace.

[DireStrike]

42. No offense, but your belief sounds more libertarian

Punctuated of course by the other institutions that make up the safety net.

How can public schools be the properly-funded, strong institutions they are if the wealthy are allowed to opt out? I guess if you have a functioning government, where the interests of the populace at large were represented, it could work. That is not what we have, but you know that.

It doesn't matter anyway. Public schools in this country will never be properly funded. People WILL be upset with those that allow things to get that way though; including those who divest themselves from the system and thus wash their hands of any concern with it.

Have you ever criticized a congressman for voting for war while not having a child in the military? A man for his views on abortion? I suspect not, I hope not. This is the same issue.

[fed_up_mother]

46. Libertarian? Single payer healthcare? Preschool? Better funded public schools?

Better social safety nets? Better working conditions? Better wages?

No, I'm not a libertarian, but I'm a strong believer in personal freedom, and not just the sex, drugs, and rock n' roll kinda' personal freedom. :)

I even believe in capitalism - the well regulated kind that answers to governments and unions.

Peace.

[Hippo_Tron]

141. They do it in Western Europe

Uber wealthy still opt out and send their kids to elite boarding schools but the vast majority still send their kids to public schools and their public schools are very good.

[wickerwoman]

50. DS isn't proposing restricting your freedoms

There would still be private schools, you would just be considered a jerk for sending your kid to one.

Supporting public schools isn't about class envy and hatred. It's about recognizing that you are responsible for all of the children in this society (not just your own) because those kids in public school (who, I assume, you are currently not supporting by sending your kids to private schools) are going to have a harder time becoming the doctors, engineers, politicians, artists, etc. who will lift up your quality of life because they don't have a chance to interact, compete and collaborate with your children.

And what message does it send to your kids to say "mommy and daddy have money so you don't have to spend time with all *those* people in public school?" How do you know your kids wouldn't learn a lot more valuable lessons from spending some time with people from a different background?

And if you use school vouchers, I'm sorry, but you're a real asshole for sucking money out of public education and making sure your kids get a better education at the expense of other people's kids.

[fed_up_mother]

52. My kids attend public school. I've had kids in public schools for two decades, in fact.

We have also homeschooled and utilized a private school for two years.

It's called freedom. If all kids have good schools to attend, it should be none of your damn business what another parent chooses to do. They may have very valid reasons for making an alternate choice. If someone wants to send their kid to a montessori school, or a waldorf school, or a christian school, or a school for left handed yukalaylee players, they should feel free to do so without "progressives" making them feel guilty.

One thing I do know: members of the far left and far right have much in common when it comes to wanting people to conform to what they believe life should be like, and they aren't happy until they're making others miserable and feeling guilty for living their own lives.

[DireStrike]

58. So you want freedom from guilt?

Good luck with that.

[wickerwoman]

108. It's my damn business

when parents want to suck money out of the common fund so they can send their kids to a school that will lie to them about evolution and birth control because I then have to live in a society where people think pharmacists should have more control over my reproductive system than I do and we shouldn't cure Parkinsons because blastocysts have feelings too.

Is it none of my business when parents pull their kids out of public school and send them to madrassas that teach them to hate Jews? Really? Society has no say in whether parents "homeschool" their kids by having them work on a farm 16 hours a day?

We should be able to work around most legitimate reasons for pulling kids out of public schools (like distance from home/work, special needs kids, etc.) by offering a choice of public schools and better services. I have no problem with magnate schools for the arts, Montessori schools, even religious schools as long as they are held accountable to the public.

The problem with charter schools is that they are not held accountable in the same way public schools are. Basically, they're an attempt to bust the teachers' unions by privatizing education. It's a scam run by one of the Bush brothers (Marvin? I think). Many studies have found that students in charter schools do not to significantly better than kids in public schools. They just cost more because they're run for profit. Does the mind not rebel at the phrase "for-profit education" in exactly the same way as "for-profit health care"?

[noamnety]

44. I'd be more likely to buy into this

if all public schools were schools of choice.

I had one year when my daughter was in a private school. The reason is probably not a situation you've considered in your scenarios.
I was a single mom with an hour commute to a temporary job. It ended up being permanent after I was there a full year and at that point I moved closer to work, but I couldn't risk signing a year long lease only to have the job disappear in a few weeks. With my schedule plus the commute, I had to leave my house at 5:30. I couldn't physically be in two places at once - helping my kid get on the bus in our home neighborhood, and commuting to work. And I couldn't always get home, depending on weather and traffic, before the school's daycare closed.

I ended up putting her in a cheap private school in the same city where I worked, and she did the commute with me every day.

I understand where you are coming from, but there are circumstances when public schools can't meet our needs - not because we are the elite, but because we aren't.

[DireStrike]

51. Yeah, I realized there were a lot of situations I was missing.

I thought I covered that by saying 95%. 5% is a pretty large number. Might not be large enough though. I am not sure how many go to private schools because they see them as "better" than public schools. I assume the majority want the religious aspect (NOT a good excuse), or just plain don't want their kids in one of those *DREADFUL* public schools. I hope I didn't offend, and I thank you for taking it as you did.

I'm not sure what you mean by "schools of choice". It sounds very good though. You should be able to choose to send your kids to any public school. I imagine this would be a lot easier if they were all federally funded.

[noamnety]

53. schools of choice

around here, that means just as you said - you can opt to send your kid to any public school regardless of your address, though it's on you to provide transportation if it's outside the area the buses cover. Some schools are starting to do that in my area, some are doing it - but only if you live within their district. I live in one of the most segregated areas of the country, and the people in the black neighborhoods legally can't go to the better financed public schools in the surrounding white areas. I could talk at length about that, but it's probably not necessary - we can all understand why that's institutional racism.

That's another reason why I wouldn't fault someone necessarily for going to a private school. I've been at schools where there was no electricity on some floors, the ceiling was caving in in one area of the building, they are operating in an emergency mode just to keep kids safe. 5 miles away, there might be a great public school - but the law prevents them from going to it. For those kids, going to a private school is the only legal way they can get an equitable education to what the white kids are getting. I think that might encompass more than 5% of the kids, at least in my area. We need to address making schools equitable before we start dismantling the alternatives to substandard schools.

Part of making them equitable is doing something that the people in power won't agree to. It's not enough to just ensure that from this day forward all schools are funded at equal levels. To really address the legacy issues, we need to reverse funding, so that schools like the one I visited can fix their roof and structural problems that arose from years of neglect and get comparable lab equipment, and then on top of that, the additional money they get should be equal to what other richer districts are getting.

[DireStrike]

113. Right... any program needs to address legacy issues in failing(unfunded) schools.

I certainly would not fault parents who kept their children out of schools like THAT, by any means necessary. Federal funding and standards. Roofs that don't have holes in them, for god's sake, is an obvious starting point.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

150. We have more or less level funding per student in CA, it really has not changed things much

[woo me with science]

23. Test teachers before testing students.

Any teacher who can't pass a basic test of grammar/writing, math, history, and science is OUT.

Don't tell me that other things are also important in teaching. Of course they are. However, a teacher who does not know the basics him- or herself is not capable of teaching them to students.

You can seek out the other stuff in the pool of candidates that remains.

[Posteritatis]

25. That would kinda be the whole "university education" thing most places require (nt)

[noamnety]

26. A basic skills test is already part of teacher certification.

It doesn't cover history and science, but it does cover grammar/reading, math, and persuasive essay writing/critical thinking.

That's in addition to the subject area tests.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

57. They already do this with teacher certification exams.

The teachers have to pay to take these exams too.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

64. The ones I have seen (and taken) were pretty weak

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

65. How much testing should someone have to endure

and pay for a $30,000 a year job?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

71. The focus is that the test are easy and yet some teachers had huge problems passing them

[noamnety]

117. I do agree with that.

I've taken the reading test, writing test, math test, and two subject area tests. 4 of those I maxed out the score, and the other (the math) I got one or two problems wrong.

That didn't shock me in general, because I am a great test taker, I kick butt on SAT style tests. But the thing that made me sit back and say "wait, this is odd" is that one of the subject areas I didn't feel I was fully qualified for.

I teach some multimedia studies classes, and I have everything short of a thesis for a masters in communication-multimedia studies. I'm comfortable teaching the class, because I stay within that realm. But the Communication Arts subject test also covered radio and print journalism which I have no training in. I answered the test with common sense and got the max score, but I know in my heart I shouldn't be teaching those. And that's fine for me, because I'm NOT teaching that area. It should be cause for concern that I can get hired to teach print journalism, though, and be considered highly qualified.

Also, we have one English teacher who I think is a great teacher ... but her spelling makes the rest of us cringe in staff meetings. I'm not talking about typos - I mean she'll be taking notes on a flip chart for our team, and has to stop and ask how to spell very basic words that have at times left the rest of us exchanging glances.

I'm confused about that. I'd rather see her stick to teaching social studies (she's qualified for and teaches both). She knows she can't spell, she tells that to her students up front. She can teach literature and meaning just fine, her teaching methods are strong and she has a lot of passion about the content. But I think it might be doing the kids a disservice to have an English class where the teacher isn't capable of correcting their spelling even when the mistakes are glaring. It makes me wonder about the content area test for English teachers - and about the basic skills test for reading and writing. Having maxed those tests, I don't have any sense of where the threshold is for failing them, but I suspect it's too low.

[kwassa]

70. It is called Praxis, from ETS. Same people that brought you the SAT.

http://www.ets.org/portal/site/ets/menuitem.fab2360b1645a1de9b3a0779f1751509/?vgnextoid=48c05ee3d74f4010VgnVCM10000022f95190RCRD&WT.ac=Praxis+Brochure+and+Front+Door

both Praxis 1 and Praxis 2 were required before I was hired.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. They do that already

Competency tests for teachers have been around for at least 30 years.

[woo me with science]

104. Then either somebody is cheating,

or the tests are pathetically easy, because I have seen some astounding incompetence in our local school system. I want to be clear; I have seen some excellent teachers, too. However, I am talking about teachers who cannot write a paragraph without glaring errors in spelling and sentence structure and teachers who cannot converse at even a basic level about world or American history.

I wish that our school system could hire teachers straight out of graduate school in their fields, rather than signing on people with education degrees but an embarrassing lack of knowledge in the subjects they are supposed to be qualified to teach. The graduate education courses through the (top rated) graduate program in education near here are the most useless, embarrassing pablum I have ever seen at the graduate level. Meanwhile, I watch an independent school up the road build a stellar faculty by hiring people who have actually studied and worked in their fields of choice.

We need to revamp the system so that elementary teachers are held accountable for knowing the basics and so that we are hiring secondary teachers with degrees in their subject areas rather than a bunch of garbage courses in "pedagogy."

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. You can't teach without a knowledge of pedagogy

If I had to pick one or the other, I would take pedagogy over content knowledge every time.

When I was in high school, I had a science teacher who had written the textbook. She was brilliant. But she couldn't teach. Her content knowledge was worth zilch while she was unable to make her students pay attention, do our homework or pass her tests.

A teacher with a good handle of pedagogy can teach anything. All that content and the 'basics' you talk about are in the textbooks. They are excellent and very valuable resources.

Now I really believe good teachers have BOTH content knowledge and a grasp of pedagogy. But I have seen those who don't know the content as well as people like you think they should put their students on the edge of their seats and excite them about learning while I remember the brilliant scientist who couldn't keep my 9th grade class under control long enough to teach us anything.

Teaching is really more about psychology than knowledge of content.

[woo me with science]

115. You can't teach something if you don't know it,

and I have seen these education courses. Maybe you were lucky enough to have good ones, but the ones I saw were nothing short of ridiculous - hours and hours of discussion over ludicrous topics such as whether it is traumatizing to a student to use a red versus a purple pen when grading papers. The students at this highly-ranked program were decidedly mediocre in intelligence and grasp of their chosen subject matter. Something is wrong in "pedagogy."

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. But oh yes you can

That is my point. Knowing HOW to teach is far more important than knowing WHAT to teach.

[woo me with science]

119. No, you can't.

And the fact that you believe you can is nothing short of scary.

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. The fact that I am a teacher and do indeed know what I am talking about is rather relevant

And before you ask, my kids make AYP every year. In a crappy school district where very few schools are 'succeeding'.

[woo me with science]

123. It's not relevant to your ludicrous statement

that you can teach effectively what you don't know.

I could give you examples all day of the crap that passed for "pedagogy education" in this highly ranked program. That should scare anyone who wants to know how teachers are trained in the US these days.

Does my example about the pens surprise you? How about spending a FULL HOUR of class time practicing clapping games for breaking the ice in a classroom? How about lengthy, excruciating discussions about the merits of wide-ruled versus college-ruled paper for middle school students, or the use of pens versus pencils for dictation in the fifth grade?

Does any of this strike you as a colossal waste of time?

If you honestly believe that this crap qualifies as graduate education, then you are a part of the problem.

[proud2BlibKansan]

131. Those aren't pedagogy issues

When I was in graduate school we had to prepare a lesson for a content area we were not familiar with. That was using class time effectively to practice what we had learned.

And ice breakers are important in building a classroom learning community. I have spent literally hours in training for these kinds of activities.

[woo me with science]

137. Putting a lesson plan together for "a content area we were not familiar with"

does not make you capable of teaching an area in which you are incompetent. I don't care if you are capable of skimming a physics textbook and guessing what a good lesson plan might look like. You don't KNOW if your lesson plan was crap, because likely the professor who led you through that exercise didn't know, either. If you cannot pass a basic physics test, you should not be pretending to teach physics to my daughter. If you cannot write a paragraph competently, you have no business being an English teacher. I don't care how well you can break the ice with clapping games, or how much "pedagogy" you think you have been taught. If you are incompetent in your subject area, you need to get out of my classroom.

There is no excuse for any teacher to have the audacity to claim that she can teach a subject about which she is ignorant, just because she has taken the crap courses in education that I took.

[proud2BlibKansan]

163. My education courses were not crap

I have a masters degree from the BEST graduate school in the country in my field. My professors were not only outstanding but also award winning in their field. You bet I can teach content I am not an expert at. THAT IS THE POINT.

I can't help it if you don't understand this because you took some piddly course work in education at a school that wasn't top drawer.

And don't worry. No clapping games for you. Your nasty ass attitude would land you in time out long before the clapping games begin.

[woo me with science]

164. Wow. Just wow. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

145. I have seen several epic fails from that approach

Anybody who has taken the general ed courses for their BA/BS *may* be able to fake it for english or history. Doesn't work for math, science, chemistry, physics, comp sci, etc

[noamnety]

130. clarification on wording, please.

"I have seen these education courses."

What do you mean by "seen"? You've used that a few times, it's odd language. I'd never say "I saw an art history course."

[woo me with science]

139. I took five core classes in an MA program in education

(rated in the top 10 in the Gourman Report) in order to qualify myself for a job. One class was very good and was content-heavy in research about effective teaching techniques. Four out of the five were absolute nonsense, politics, and pablum.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

147. Your experience matches mine.

[Hannah Bell]

27. reconstruct the real economy, reduce working hours so both parents can spend time with their kids,

increase working people's pay. i.e., reverse the concentration of wealth.

better home life, better jobs = kids learning better & believing in the merit of education.

[etherealtruth]

29. Though not necessarily an opponent of merit pay

I understand concerns linking merit pay to test results and the like are problematic. On the other hand I am a degreed professional and my remuneration is based on merit, as is the pay of most professionals.

I think our current concept of a school year is outdated (hearkening back to when we were an agrarian society). I think our educational system would be improved by a school year that extends through out the entire year. Teachers would not have to spend a month or two trying to regain lost ground because of "summer vacation."

I would also change the way schools are funded, I would provide the same resources to inner city children as the children receive in affluent suburbs.

I would provide grants/higher rates of pay to teachers teaching in districts/areas where the kids are struggling.

This is where I would start.

[ulysses]

31. work to value education (of many kinds) as a society.

Work to help those on the lower ends of the economic scale help their kids come to school ready to learn. Yes, I'm calling for a new war on poverty in essence.

Pay teachers more. Again, I'm fine with merit pay if it's done fairly. The challenge is to do it fairly.

Guess that'll do for a start.

[ulysses]

54. where'd you go?

You've gotten ideas here.

[damonm]

161. Had to deal with RL, unfortunately...

But, reading through these, there ARE some truly good ideas.

[Indy Lurker]

67. what's wrong with properly using the tenure system.

Carefully monitor new hires, and terminate any that are not top shelf prior to getting tenure. You need to have decent pay to attract good people to this process.

This does cause you to constantly train new hires, but it's the only way I've found to get the best people.

The people who get past this vetting process actually appreciate it when you are selective in picking good people for them to work with.

Having said that, I manage a couple 30 year employees who are near useless, but I can't bear to terminate them.

This process will take 20 years to be fully implemented.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

72. Tenure has no place in K-12. Look at what tenure was instituted for

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. Tenure meant the crazy parent who hated me couldn't fire me when he became school board prez

He actually stated at a school board meeting that if we weren't tenured he would see to it that every teacher his kid had ever had would be fired.

So yes, k-12 teachers need tenure too.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

97. Thats a union/contract issue, not tenure

Its an abuse of the term...but I intend to be prig about that kind of thing

[woo me with science]

69. Hire secondary teachers with degrees in their subject areas

rather than a bunch of junk courses in "pedagogy."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

73. Heresy...we could end up with teachers who do not adhere to the orthodoxy

[woo me with science]

109. That is another problem, yes.

Courses in education tend to be political rather than content-heavy, and they do not draw the best and brightest students. It is embarrassing.

[RedCappedBandit]

86. Stop teaching tests. nt

[Maru Kitteh]

91. Require at least 5 years of higher education to teach K-6, six years for 7-12

And pay in accordance with that level of education.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

98. It has to be more than years of education...high demand skills should be the prime factor

Technical degrees are worth more than some others

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. Many universities have 5 year teacher ed programs

And I don't understand why high school teachers need more education than elementary teachers. I am an elementary teacher and much of what we do is far more difficult than a high school teacher's job.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

149. Specialized subject knowledge would be the key

You don't need calculus etc to teach in elementary schools

[proud2BlibKansan]

152. Elementary teachers take many more courses in child development

and psychology. We also need lots of content area coursework that high school teachers don't need.

So I think it all evens out in the end.

[JackDragna]

95. As a teacher, here's what I want.

Better facilities. More schools. Smaller classes. Better public outreach by the administration. More support from the administration when the teacher has to discipline students. More pay would be nice, but I'll take any one of the things I just listed over better pay.

[DemBones DemBones]

110. I agree. I'd add that paraprofessionals

would be very helpful to teachers. When I taught college, I had a secretary and there was someone who did all the copying for all the faculty. This was the case at two colleges. I also had student lab assistants and I only taught 16 hours a week, didn't have to do lunch duty, hall duty, or bus duty.

When I taught high school, I had to do all my own typing and copying, which took away time that could have been better used setting up for labs, planning lessons, phoning parents, grading papers, etc. Not only that, but the copy machine broke down regularly, which didn't happen at the colleges where only one person used the machine. And of course I had no one to assist me with labs, and never enough money to buy materials to conduct the state-mandated one class period per week of hands-on lab activities. I used to threaten to take my chocolate Lab to school and let the kids put their hands on him. :evilgrin:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

116. And some respect from the public, I'm sure

As well as parents who care more about their children learning than about making the varsity team.

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. Me too

Please help the kids first. I can pass on a raise if that means the kids don't get what they should have.

[RiverStone]

151. And as a 20 year educator I'll add...

Trash NCLB!

We teach the whole kid and the emphasis (and stress) placed on all in the system with arbitrary standardized testing has taken the joy out of teaching for many.

BTW, I agree with all your wants. :hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

114. Pay all teachers more in order to attract the best candidates

In Japan, public school teaching is the highest-paying job that a four-year graduate can get. A friend of mine did graduate research on math education in Japan and found that, unlike her high school days, when the math teacher was ill-prepared and easily stumped and maybe teaching math only because coaches have to teach some classes, the math teachers in Japan really knew their stuff, were enthusiastic about the subject, and conveyed that to the students.

The problems with merit pay are twofold:

1. How do you define merit? By test scores? But maybe the teacher is teaching music or phys. ed. or something else that can't be quanitified? By student evaluations? Students have been known to "gang up" on a teacher they don't like and write bad evaluations in the hope of getting that teacher into trouble. Peer review? What about a teacher who is a good teacher but has somehow won the enmity of one or more teachers in the school?

2. Are their teachers who are slacking off who would suddenly improve if they were paid more?

[Two Americas]

155. what is the problem?

How can we solve a problem if we don't know what the problem is?

The right wingers have been waging all put war to destroy public education. What else do we need to know? They love to say "there is a problem" - with terrorists, with Iraq, with Social Security, with "illegal aliens," with "voter fraud" - and then on that basis set about wrecking everything until we DO have some REAL problems.

How stupid are we that we keep falling for their tricks?

The only problem with public education is the relentless attacks on it from the right wing - under various idiotic ruses like merit pay, vouchers and what not.



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