Why do teachers get the bad rap for students' inability to be taught?

[Deja Q]

NCLB, certain CEOs whining over teacher unions and thinking they look cool because of it, et cetera, because it's the sole fault of the teachers.

What if teachers can't do a damn thing thanks to stupid, nonsensical laws.

I'm for laws that have a proper purpose, but not stupid ones that are counter-intuitive for the intention.

Where are the parents?

Are the students genuinely diagnosed with a PDD? Or what if are they smart enough to pretend? Enough cartoon shows of late love to suggest it's the latter. Have any real studies been done?

And why do principals do nothing; just let the kids out the door, having learned nothing? That has been going on for DECADES. Or what does a principal do? What is their job and do they deserve it? If a kid keeps going back to the principal's office, there's a problem and it's the principal's job to determine if the kid stays behind, expels, or any other form of just punishment.

If anybody is to blame for our students' lack of education, most of it is the genuine fault of the principal... and the parents. And often enough it can be summed up in one word: Apathy. In a few words: Apathy based on indolence. (And I am not discounting legitimate reasons. But apathy is not legitimate, nor should it be tolerated. Or, rather, why should it be tolerated?)

Flame away if that turns you on, but I'm hoping for genuine conversation instead.

[JoDog]

1. It's based on the idea

that every child has the equal potential to be taught the same material in the same way. Which is absolutely not the case. There are a variety of factors that decide a child's aptitude. You've mentioned one of the big ones--the level of parental involvement. Teachers can teach all they can, but it is the parent who must turn off the TV and insist the child read or do homework.

There's also the simple fact that some children learn differently from others. Some need to simply hear a lesson to comprehend it. Others need to do something in order to learn.

Perhaps most controversal is the fact that some kids are smarter than others. Most people don't like to admit that. Everyone wants to think there children are geniuses who can do anything as long as someone gives them the chance. It's the "Lake Woebegon" syndrome: all the children are above average. But not everyone is. And parents don't want to hear it, or adjust their expectations to something more realistic for their children.

NCLB ties the hands of teachers in many ways. Often, they must stick to a strict lesson plan, and cannot deviate to other topics or tangents that children seem to be interested in. Rather than teaching them to think and explore, children are taught to parrot off facts and words to pass the tests. Which will inhibit them as they continue through school

[AngryAmish]

6. Half the kids have below 100 IQ

For every kid on the honor roll there is a dim kid. It is the way we are made.

Some schools have more smart kids than other schools. Other schools are made up of a lot of dumb kids.

We should not expect a lot out of the kids who just don't have the mental horsepower to do advanced work. They are going to do well learning discipline and a trade. (Not that smart kids don't need discipline. But many kids are not taught the necessary discipline).

I take no back seat to anyone in the teacher bashing department. But to expect a teacher to make a room of kids that are a standard deviation or more short of the norm in IQ to do average work is profoundly unfair.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Life is a bell curve

How often we forget that.

[AngryAmish]

41. Don't tell Nassim Taleb that!

He will yell at you.

[Deja Q]

7. Well said, thank you much for responding.

Especially the third paragraph. IQ is not equal, and there are many types of intelligence too. If we are to be a society, using peoples' strengths seems to be more logical a solution than applying a blanket scenario -- after a certain point.

[bluestateguy]

2. Parenting

Bad parenting is responsible for many, though not all, of our education ills. We can't just pour more money into the schools and expect that everything will be fixed. NCLB is a bad law, but it too is not the culprit for everything. When parents don't value their kids' education; when they don't monitor their kids' progress and demand high standards from them as students, then there is only so much teachers can do.

[Deja Q]

10. Also excellent points, thank you!

But has also been said, not all students perform the same. It's down to basic biological inequities.

And you're right; parental apathy is a problem too. I have not been to a school or have been to peoples' homes, nor would I for any number of reasons, but I would make a crass inference, based on how families react at the grocery store or shopping mall, how their children might end up. Grossly unscientific, that is, and it's too loose an association to be sure...

[Bigmack]

13. "We can't just pour more money...."

'We can't just pour more money into the schools and expect that everything will be fixed.'

Why don't we just try that "Pour Money" approach and see what happens? Just once! We've tried the "slow starvation" method on the schools, and that certainly hasn't worked. Why not pour the same kind of money into the schools that we've pissed away on the military since the end of WWII?

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Beat me to it

We have NEVER funded our schools appropriately. We absolutely do need to pour money into our schools for about 20 years. Then we might see some progress.

[Hangingon]

54. Let us remind everyone of the Kansas City experiment.

How money was dumped into that school district for 20 years. Look at where it is now. Still unaccredited. On the brink of state take over. A disaster. No - just money is most definitely not the solution to the problem.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

61. The KC experiment is telling The solution is much more than just money.

[exboyfil]

58. Would the once at least be the Kansas City experiment?

Also DC spends $16,540/yr per pupil. You times that by 20 and you get over $330,000/yr. A healthy chunk of change even in a high cost of living area.

New York spends $14,206/yr per pupil with the highest spending in NYC.

The U.S. average is $9,557/yr per pupil.

In contrast some of the best performing states spend far less. Iowa for example spends $8,141.

If you campare the Cost of Living from a town in Iowa to Washington, DC you go from $50,000 to $76.759. Notice that the cost per pupil is more than double for Washington DC, and the results in the Iowa community far surpass those in DC.

Money alone is not the problem. The U.S. is number three in the OECD in per pupil spending. The amount the federal government spends on K-12 has been increasing by every measure considered (real dollars, per pupil, percentage of budget, percentage of GDP, and percentage of income).

I am sure you can impact performance by some degree by the amount of money spent. I guess I would ask, how much should we be spending in DC for example on a per pupil basis? Would $25,000 per pupil be enough to achieve the desired results or bring the school averages up to national averages? Should we run another Kansas City experiment and see what happens?

[Bigmack]

77. I mean serious, Pentagon style money...

not your piddly little $14K.

How about paying the kids BIG for performance? How about paying teachers what a lobbyist gets? How about building schools that cost like aircraft carriers?

Kids aren't stupid. They know exactly how much we value education. They look at the cars in the teacher parking lot... They look at the dilapidated schools in many communities... They look at who the (semi-literate) cultural heroes are and what they get paid.

I wasn't talking about the difference between per pupil cost in DC and Bumfuck, Iowa...I was talking about MONEY!

[exboyfil]

79. How much then per pupil?

How much for your payments (for grades or test scores)? Who gets paid? Can my kids get dollars for performance as well?

I guess we both agree we can raid the Defense budget for funds. The current national spend for K-12 (using 2005 figures) was $534B. The DOD budget is about $650B when when emergency discretionary spending and supplemental spending are included. I don't think we should be spending anymore on Defense than the average of the OECD based on GDP percentage. Over time we should be able to lop off $200-$300B. I guess that money can go straight into education.

I think President-Elect's stimulus plan for spending on infrastructure will hopefully address some of the issues related to schools.

I was trying to show that dollars are not the entire answer. I think serious questions need to be asked where the $16,540 per pupil is going in the D.C. school system and why it is not getting results before more money is spent. I think the same arguments apply to other communities as well.

We have got 11 carrier groups. I would like to see us half that by eliminating a great deal of our foreign commitments. If we did that tomorrow, we might find it difficult to keep our economy going when the Middle Eastern oil deliveries stopped.

Iowa might be a small flyover state, but, in general, the kids do pretty well here. We probably don't pay our teachers enough, but we try to support them in a variety of other ways. I know getting a teaching position in our school district is difficult because such positions are highly desired. That fact is an indication that the market price for wages appears to be in line with the expectation of the teachers. Everyone thinks they should make more money. In the last several years their raise percentages have been two times mine.

If the teachers all started driving Caddys, would that change the perception of the students?? Maybe?? Just hope they don't see my car (a 1996 Escort with body damage) or they may lose interest in an engineering career.

[patrice]

3. Parents seem to delegate their responsibilities relatively early:

I'm not against appropriate socialization, but there is such a thing as tooooooooo early! Especially when the parents themselves have no real idea what their own true values are or WHY the "values" that they do have are their values. They leave too much up to day-care and churches which have their OWN agenda$$$$.

When children get to the stage of development in which it is appropriate to challenge and, thus, internalize things like values, aesthetics, and morals, generations of conformity impoverishes their cognitive environment which operates, basically, on ONE principle: Do whatever it takes to make money, because money is the true measure of your worth. Children who resist this as they become adolescents are punished.

[patrice]

4. P.S. Schools are prevented from addressing the questions related to Values, or they are

punished if they impart anything other than the fuzzy feel goods that many "parents" mistake for moral reasoning.

Believe me, I've been there and have seen this up close and personal.

[Deja Q]

12. Thank you for your responses. I will definitely be mindful of yours.

[stray cat]

5. If I am hired to do a job I'm expected to do it successfully

right or wrong thats the definition of competence in a job. It may not be right but thats why they get some of the blame.

[AngryAmish]

8. Doctors are hired to keep people alive

Doctor A is given a pool of patients that don't smoke, drink moderately, are active and fit and don't have genetic predisposition for cancer, diabetes, etc.

Doctor B is given a pool of patients in their 80s.

If the only metric is death rate, Doctor B is doing a terrible job. But is that metric fair?

Likewise, teachers are given different pools of students than others. Comparing them is not fair.

[DemBones DemBones]

25. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Though a better analogy would be that Doctor B is given a pool of patients that do smoke, drink excessively, are inactive and unfit and do have genetic predisposition for cancer, diabetes, etc.

When a patient ignores the advice of his doctor, refuses to take prescribed medication, and dies, nobody blames the doctor.

When a student doesn't pay attention in class, do homework, or study for tests, and fails a class, too many people blame the teacher. The blame should fall on the student and his/her parents. The best teachers in the world can't help a kid who refuses to try.

[AngryAmish]

27. Some kids just are not smart

IQ is Gaussian.

[Johonny]

34. But what is IQ

IQ is not a measure of some innate ability. Intelligence is not a scalable, rankable, single innate ability. It is not however useless. It was designed to find student that were not preforming up to standard abilities. It however wasn't designed to ignore these kids as stupid. It was designed to identify them and get them the special needs they require. Most low scoring children have learning disabilities and are not "stupid". Most people are of average intelligence and can easily pass standard American high school education given the means to do so. Teachers are simply not responsible for the social economic situation of their class room which often dominates any ability they have as a teacher.

[AngryAmish]

40. IQ exists and it does count

Now there are hundreds of IQ tests, some very good, some terrible. What is usually measured is G or general intelligence. (That is leaving aside ther measurement of "other intelligences" and other hooey.) Anyway, the best analagy is g measure intellectual horsepower, the ability to learn and manipulate information. IQ tests are repeatable and verifiable. The science is good (at least as good as it can be in the social sciences). IQ is a single scalable and rankable ability. One does not take an IQ test once and get a 90 and test again and get a 120 (unless it is the exact same questions, since learning occurs). Your score does not vary that much.

I agree that most people with average intelligence should pass high school curriculum. Otherwise the school would be too hard! We want high school graduates.

If low most IQ people have learnng disabilities, no matter how much education they get they will never be able to do college work. Some can. Some are brilliant. But the world is a harsh place. They will never be given extra time to do things at work, for example. They would just get fired. So maybe we should train them to do what they are good at.

[Johonny]

70. You are wrong

IQ tests are repeatable and verifiable. But what they measure is not an innate ability, nor is intelligence invariable. A person can score a 90 and then score 120, if the person has dyslexia or many other learning abilities. Many people with learning disabilities not only do college work but become very effective members of society.

I highly recommend measurement of man by Stephen J. Gould.

[tomg]

62. Just to add to your analogy,

( which I really do agree with) Doctor A's patients all have fabulous health care policies, great work-out equipment, and Doctor A has major government grants for research. Doctor B's patients have little or no affordable health care, don't have time to work out, and Doctor B works out of a storefront.

While I agree completely that so much of it is about parental and student responsibility, I don't think public school education can really meet the needs of many of it students as long as it is funded based largely on property values. I teach college at a selective, private institution with a very solid reputation. My wife teaches at a middle school (five miles from where I teach) in a town that has been going through rough economic times (even before the current rough economic times), have a very strong conservative base, and has consistently defeated the budget ( right now, teachers are working without a contract). Meanwhile, I'm teaching pretty much upper middle class kids who come out of the better school systems ( with better funding).

The miserable thing about "no child left a mind" is that due to the way it is set up, a school with poor test scores winds up losing the funding it needs for special service kids, for after school programs, for a whole host of things that are needed to reverse the very problems that are at least a partial cause of the low test scores.

I don't think that "throwing money at the problem" is the answer, per se. I do think, though, that as far as education ( and police and fire and most services) is concerned, the way funding is provided is part of the problem.

[patrice]

9. True! BUT this principle is not applied to Parents. So teachers DO end up

with children who are in-appropriately placed and, therefore, tooooooo disruptive.

We need to get rid of the whole "grade level" thing.

[Deja Q]

11. And yet we offshore jobs, the results of which could be described as "failure" too.

Doing it successfully is one thing.

Doing it cheaply, quickly, imposing bogus time constraints -- that's definitely another.

[gollygee]

23. Have you ever seen the comparison to dentists?

My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget

Check-ups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and

I've got all my teeth. When I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd

heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great.



"Did you hear about the new state program to measure

effectiveness of dentists with their young patients?" I said. "No," he said. He didn't seem

too thrilled. "How will they do that?" "It's quite simple," I said. "They will

just count the number of cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and

average that to determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as excellent, good, average, below

average, and unsatisfactory. That way parents will know which are the best

dentists. The plan will also encourage the less effective dentists to get

better," I ! ; said. "Poor dentists who don't improve could lose their licenses to

practice."



"That's terrible," he said. "What? That's not a good attitude," I

said. "Don't you think we should try to improve children's dental health in

this state?" "Sure I do," he said, "but that's not a fair way to determine who

is practicing good dentistry." "Why not?", I said. "It makes perfect

sense to me."



"Well, it's so obvious," he said. "Don't you see that dentists

don't all work with the same clientele, and that much depends on things we

can't control? For example, I work in a rural area with a high percentage of

patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper middle-

class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don't bring their children to see

me until there is some kind of problem, and I don't get to do much

preventive work. Also, more educated parents who understand the relationship

between sugar and decay. To top it all off, so many of my clients have well water which

is untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much

difference early use of fluoride can make?"



"It sounds like you're making excuses," I said. "I can't believe

that you, my dentist, would be so defensive. After all, you do a great job,

and you needn't fear a little accountability."



"I am not being defensive!" he said. "My best patients are as

good as anyone's, my work is as good as anyone's, but my average cavity count is

going to be higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where

I am needed most."



"Don't get touchy," I said. "Touchy?" he said. His face had

turned red, and from the way he was clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to damage his

teeth. "Try furious! In a system like this, I will end up being rated

average, below average, or worse. The few educated patients I have who see these

ratings may believe this so-called rating is an actual measure of my ability

and proficiency as a dentist. They may leave me, and I'll be left

with only the most needy patients. And my cavity average score will get even

worse. On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and other

excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?"



"I think you are overreacting," I said. "'Complaining, excuse-

making and stonewalling won't improve dental health'...I am quoting from a

leading member of the DOC," I noted. "What's the DOC?" he asked. "It's

the Dental Oversight Committee," I said, "a group made up of mostly lay

persons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved. "Spare me,"

he said, "I can't believe this. Reasonable people won't buy it," he said hopefully.



The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, "How else would

you measure good dentistry?" "Come watch me work," he said. "Observe my

processes." "That's too complicated, expensive and time- consuming," I

said. "Cavities re the bottom line, and you can't argue with the bottom line.

It's an absolute measure." "That's what I'm afraid my parents and

prospective patients will think. This can't be happening," he said despairingly.

"Now, now," I said, "don't despair. The state will help you

some." "How?" he asked. "If you receive a poor rating, they'll send a dentist who

is rated excellent to help straighten you out," I said brightly. "You

mean," he said, "they'll send a dentist with a wealthy clientele to show me how

to work on severe juvenile dental problems with which I have probably had

much more experience? BIG HELP!"



"There you go again," I said. "You aren't acting professionally

at all." "You don't get it," he said. "Doing this would be like grading schools

and teachers on an average score made on a test of children's progress with no

regard to influences outside the school, the home, the community served and

stuff like that. Why would they do something so unfair to dentists? No one

would ever think of doing that to schools."



I just shook my head sadly, but he had brightened. "I'm going to

write my representatives and senators," he said. "I'll use the school

analogy. Surely they will see the point." He walked off with that look of hope

mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I, a teacher, see in the mirror so

often lately.

[DemBones DemBones]

29. Great post! I have taught in rural Appalachian schools that were

poverty areas and -- big surprise! -- the kids there don't have the early experiences that
kids in more affluent areas do. That limits them but is hardly their fault. Nor is it their teachers' fault that they have difficulties in school.

[WinkyDink]

45. Oh, brother! Like a student is a product? Like they have no free will whether to try to retain

anything?

[LWolf]

14. Because everyone needs and loves a scapegoat.

It makes a great distraction from investigating the root causes of failure.

And because politicians make a lot of political hay off of acting like they know my job better than I do.

There are some great responses to this thread already; JoDog lays it out well.

[snappyturtle]

15. I only taught for 8 years....in the 70's. I think education is regarded

by many as unimportant. Oh, don't get me wrong, enough realize a diploma is needed BUT attained the easiest way. I'm new, 2 years, to my area. Recently I looked at the curriculum of two local high schools and was appalled at the lack of depth in the fields of mathematics, science and foreign language. Even the better of the two is behind what I had available in the 60's! So I went and looked at the present day curriculum for my high school. It was so disappointing. I've also read that some colleges and universities have remedial classes to bring incoming freshmen up to speed!

Schools seem to concentrate on making school life as entertaining as possible. For example,I think sports programs suck the energy out of many students. But, who knows, maybe these sports enthusiasts wouldn't stay in school if prolific sports programs were absent. I don't know the answer. Hopefully, PE Obama has set an example for young people.

Parents have been involved. They have tied the teachers' hands. Now, these same parents wonder why the teachers are seemingly teaching poorly!? Heaven forbid if "Johnny" needs to be held back a year because it will hurt Johnny's self-esteem. :sarcasm:

I have a step grandchild in high school. He's just finishing his sophomore year. He's a rising star...a sports star. He is an excellent athlete but really, I do not know when he can study because he's always at practice or playing a game. He plays both at the scholastic level and in community leagues for a variety of sports. I've quit going to any of his games. I can no longer support a sports only education. MY 'attitude' is causing a big riff in the family but so be it. Am I wrong?

I think apathy is as good a word as any to describe the present education malaise.

[patrice]

19. Sports!!!! Taxes should be reduced proportionally to what is spent on Sports and then Sports

should be like the European model: available by private subscription.

Year-around school would also help.

[snappyturtle]

52. I totally agree: Yes and yes! nt

[Catshrink]

24. At our school, sports and other activities are out of control.

The educators at our school scored a victory over the edutainers by getting a ban on field trips and other out of class events for the last two weeks of a semester so kids could focus on review and final exams.

Our handbook says kids need to have their work done when they return to class and to be ready for any assessments. I hold them to it. (The only exceptions I make are for the kids on long trips when they don't get home until 2am or during a state playoff/championship. Those are inconsistent with my no mercy policy, but hey, sometimes I'm a softy.) If I didn't do this I'd go out of my mind trying to keep things straight.

Most of my student athletes are diligent and keep up but there are a few. A couple are always on the edge of eligibility. One year a star pitcher was ineligible in my class because he got a 15% on a test. The pressure on me!!!!! But 15% tells me the kid didn't bother and expects to get a pass for being a good pitcher. Luckily, the administration told the parents and coach to back off of me and put the pressure where it belonged -- on the pitcher. Sorry but there's more to life than baseball. (OMG that's something I never thought I'd say!)

[immoderate]

30. He's on track to become a principal.

When I was teaching I found that many principals had their degrees is Physical Education. They went to college to play sports. When they got out and didn't make the pros, they went into teaching. After taking administration courses, they wound up as school administrators. Some of them were better than others, but a leader who's also an academic, adds something to the job.

--IMM

[exboyfil]

64. My daughter's 7th grade English teacher is a coach-

He is a very good coach just not a very good English teacher. I am shocked that the books that I consider standard fare for a 7th grade are not being taught (Twain, Verne, Kipling, Stevens, Defoe, London, Dumas). I would like at least one book from the 19th century to be taught.

Instead of English being one of my daughter's most rigorous academic subjects like it should be, it is one of her least demanding. I am fortunate that she is a very good reader and writer because I am starting to consider her 7th grade a lost year.

When I went to school we had Honors designations for many academic subjects including English. The only Honors my daughter has is in Mathematics with a special extra Honors class.

I feel like a fool because I told her to read Jack London and Mark Twain in preparation of 7th grade. She liked London, but hated Tom Sawyer.

[immoderate]

73. I've seen this a lot.

I went to large schools where the PE teachers only taught PE. But I have found that many of the principals and assistant principals came up as gym teachers.

Ironically, my favorite English teacher, and a popular one with the seniors at Brooklyn Tech where I went to high school, was a football coach. He had been a lineman at Notre Dame. It was amazing that this huge guy loved reading poetry to us engineering students. :)

Suggestion: Have you daughter read Twain's "Letters to the Earth" and "Eve's Diary." (If she's mature enough.) :evilgrin:

--IMM

[Libertyfirst]

75. Second that recommendation!

[meow2u3]

16. Sometimes, it's the kids themselves to blame

It's very easy to blame the teachers for not being able to reach some kids in order to teach them; it's equally easy to blame parents frustrated with having the sisyphean task of raising and governing the conduct of their difficult kids. These are the unmanageable children with behavior disorders and discipline problems. The parents try to manage their kids' behavior, which is not only disrupting the class, but also the peace in the home, but either the parents give up in frustration or the kids had already broken loose from their control, sometimes at a young age.

[Catshrink]

17. You said it -- parents!

Kids whose parents have high expectations and who know there are consequences for poor grades or bad behavior usually are among the best students. OTOH, parents who don't value education themselves communicate that to their kids and the kids are among the poorest students. Parents who haven't learned that their child can make mistakes, can be a pain in the ass, does indeed lie, and can be disrespectful to teacher and classmates are among those with the worst behavior.

One thing that irks me is parents pulling their kids out of school for a week for a family vacation. What message does that send about the value of education? Who has to spend time after school catching the kid up? I understand funerals and other important family stuff -- but to go on a cruise? Please. In high school? Or parents who know their kid ditched a day yet call them in sick so the kid can make up assignments. How does that teach honesty and value?

Every year I talk with my kids about my expectations of them academically and behaviorally. I need to talk to parents about my expectations of them. Of course, those I need to reach don't show up for parents' night. I'd send a letter home but I doubt they'd read it.

95% of my students' parents are supportive. The parents of the other 5% are those with the difficult kids that unfortunately take up most of my time. Their comments?

"We wrote a behavior contract to give you a tool for when he acts out. Use it." (No consequences at home for repeated class disruptions but the parents do buy the kid an new BlackBerry.)

"I'm sorry you're having a bad day. Don't take it out on my son."

"Will you remind 'Fred' to write in his planner that he's supposed to stay after school with you tomorrow? Will you remind 'Fred' to turn in his homework?"

"Can he still turn in the assignment (from 2 months ago)?" or "Can he retake the test?"

I try to focus on the kids who want to learn. When I started I was idealistic and thought "all children can learn" and that it was up to me to find out how to reach each and every one. Right. There are only so many hours in my day so I've decided to use them where I can have the most impact. No more beating my head against the wall and chasing after a kid who doesn't give a rat's ass about learning and whose only goal is hanging out with his friends. These 16-17 year olds want me to treat them as adults so I am. That means accepting consequences for not doing their work, cutting class, etc.

Man, Toad, you hit a nerve. Sorry for the rant.

[no_hypocrisy]

18. Because the promise of public schools is a myth.

I can relate from personal experience both as a student and as a teacher that "the system" is not designed to teach each and every single student, just the majority to minor competence. The others who learn more are a windfall and the others who don't learn much at all are disposable.

OTOH, I can report with some satisfaction that the classes in "special education" as far as reading and math go are superior to those of "mainstream" insofar that the students are taught on their own particular level. In other words, they are taught according to their ability to comprehend, absorb, and retain the concepts. And the end result is that they know as much as their mainstream compatriots to some degree. They love to learn and have a better acceptance of making mistakes and correcting them. I've argued that these classes should be the model for regular public school teaching.

[MadHound]

20. Sometimes it is the teacher's fault

Sadly, there are a number of people out there teaching who shouldn't be. Right now I'm going back to college to get my teaching degree, and I look at a few of my fellow pre-service teachers, shake my head and think to myself that there's no way these people should be in the classroom.

What the problem is is that teaching simply isn't a valued occupation, thus the people go into teaching are either extremely dedicated, which is a great thing, or not dedicated at, just marking time and teaching because they don't have the capability to do anything else.

The solution to this problem is to start paying teachers like you would pay any other highly valued professional. Rather than starting them off at $25 - 30,000 dollars, start these people off with what you pay business majors, $50,000 plus. This sort of wage would go a long way to attracting the best and brightest to the profession. It would also go a long way towards establishing teaching as a valued field in our society, and by extension education itself.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. And I think some of those you think are not fit to teach may surprise you

They may have a knack for relating to kids, for being able to motivate them in a way you cannot. I have seen this over and over in 30 years.

In some schools the teachers who wrote the best lesson plans and put up the most wonderful bulletin boards and created beautiful learning environments were the worst classroom managers in the building.

A new teacher I am mentoring is terrific in front of her class. She knows how to motivate kids in ways I never thought about. Yet her lesson plans are horrible and she just doesn't seem to get the paper work stuff.

So I don't think it is fair to judge anyone's teaching skills based on what you see in them as a fellow student. I have had a successful career and have glowing evaluations yet my GPA in college was so low I am embarrassed to tell you what it was.

So I hope you will be pleasantly surprised once you get into a school and watch teachers teach.

[MadHound]

49. I'm hoping I'll be pleasantly surprised too

I also realize that what goes into making a good teacher isn't always based in academics. In fact my judgment of these people is primarily based on non-academic issues. It is based more on their character, their interpersonal skills, how they handle children, etc. And frankly, for a few of classmates, the outlook is really, really bad.

[patrice]

63. There is a significant minority of teachers who went into teaching for the wrong reasons.

Unfortunately, you can't always see who they are, because they tend not to get noticed, on purpose.

Their motivations vary as widely as society itself does.

[treestar]

21. Parents can never quite believe their offspring is not brilliant

So it's got to be someone else's fault if they don't do well. and it certainly isn't the parents because they gave their kids their own brilliant genes.

Some people are just stupid - and it is no surprise their kids are. The same people who believe the doctor's job is to cure them and the lawyer's to get them whatever they want. They are usuallly the same ones who believe that because they have a job, everyone else can get one. That if we don't fight them over there, we'll have to fight them over here.

[erebusman]

22. Its the entire system

I've spent a long time wondering about this myself.

You see I tested 13th grade reading comprehension level since 5th grade. I never made any improvement in school past that point. Arguably being that advanced at that grade level my reading level probably had very little to do with the 'education' I received.

I also never advanced beyond generic math into algebra until I was in the Navy. They kept moving me from General math into Algebra, I would get a D or F the first semester and then they would put me into general math so I could pass the year and not get held back.

Each new year I would ask to go in pre-algebra to my counselor quoting the exact information above, yet they would say my 'tests' said I should be in Algebra therefore I was going in Algebra. This repeated for 4 years (7th 8,9,and 10th grades). In 11th grade the process continued but instead of going back to general math they put me in pre-Algebra and I got a B. It was the last math class I took until the military.

What I'm referring to is personal experience showing I could have been a very advanced literary and reading student but the system had nothing to offer me. I was also not given the tools to get over a speed bump in math because the system and its tests said I should be "here" and no one in control had a brain enough to do the right thing for me several years in a row.

This leads me to the conclusion that our education system sucks. (Yes no gasps please, we already knew it.)

Its my personal belief we need to utterly destroy the current system and get into a learning skill personal advancement system. Very small class sizes (10 students).

The root of it is if you can not add and subtract you stay in that class with a small group of similar students who are focusing on that skill set until you CAN. Once you are competent in those skills you 'graduate' from that class to the next higher class focusing on a similarly small skill set and advance only when you have mastered those skills.

What works well about that system is you never have to be in a class that's moved beyond you and can't stop to help you get the skills you need.

Additionally what works extremely well about it is that your age is not a limit to your progression. If your 6 and can make it into Trigonometry all you have to do is show that you've mastered the skills and you keep graduating into successively more advanced material.

What works poorly with this idea is our whole current system. Thinking you have to be of "age x" to be in "grade y". Thinking that all students should be able to match the criteria of a curriculum. Our current system only serves one goal well and that is making sure the 'average' student progresses at an average and that if you excel you won't get much encouragement and if you lag behind ; instead of a couple weeks attention on a stiff spot you'll get held back for an entire year as if you were an idiot instead of a human being who learns different subject matters at a different pace than the average of your current class.

Yes we'd need more teachers, we'd need smaller classes. We would need to be radical and focus on education. We pretend to care about these things but when we talk about truly shaking up education all we really ever come up with is just more money for the current salaries of teachers. I'm perfectly okay with teachers getting more - but what I really want to see is a revolution in education.

Peace friends

[seabeyond]

26. i am putting the responsibility on parenting too.... n/t

[Greyhound]

28. Because of the asinine factory school model we adopted, or had thrust upon us,

in the mid-late 19th century. Combine this with the absolute control (by a family in Texas) over the textbooks and curricula in the public systems and you get what we've got.

Our public education, and I stress public, system has never been about learning, it's purpose is to create obedience and conformity. It has been so for so long we have come to believe that that is normal and the way things must be. Lack of performance is, as pointed out elsewhere in this thread, ignored because it is really not a problem, we need ignorant illiterate cogs too, but failure to conform is the ultimate offense and has always been dealt with harshly and is now being punished by placement into the criminal system and a lifetime stigma.

The scions of the parasite class have an entirely different educational experience, they are not taught to simply regurgitate "facts", but are taught from the very beginning to think and to prepare to lead.

There was an excellent book written on this about 10 years ago by a teacher that worked in both systems, unfortunately I got it from a library and the title escapes me. Maybe somebody else is aware of it.

[mzteris]

33. probably something by

John Holt or John Taylor Gatto.

[NashVegas]

51. Gatto

He's got a website up where you can buy his books.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. Teacher compensation and management has followed that same industrial/factory model as well

and it is not a good thing

[Greyhound]

46. No it isn't, it's attrocious and is a major factor in our demise.

Whenever I meet a person IRL that is capable of thought, it is like discovering a hunk of gold laying in the street and almost as rare.

[olegramps]

35. It is totally social- economic.

I have seen the results of the test scores published yearly in our newspaper. Those from the high social-economic areas of the city score high while the poverty ridden areas score low. The primary ingredient for the kids success is parent involvement. Even the marginally intelligent child can master basic material if their is enough encouragement by the parents in cooperation with the teachers. We have seen where schools that cater to economically disadvantaged kids can succeed when the parents are convinced that they have they most important part in assuring the successful education of their kids. Sadly, far too many of these kids come from one parent homes where they have very little encouragement to excel.

Being an old fart, I can remember when parents backed up the teacher. The last thing that I wanted to be faced with was for a teacher to have to complain to my father about my behavior. I have a couple of teacher friends that say it is rare that if they discipline an unruly kid that the parents don't take the kids side and end up blaming the teacher. Most teachers go into the profession with great hopes and soon leave out of frustration. Sorry, but I put 99% of the blame at the doorstep of the parents. It is clear and simple where parents are involved and insist on their kids progressing and are a part of the system, their kids excel, where they don't their kids fail.

[hfojvt]

53. there was a story told

in the Little House on the Prairie books, IIRC, about an incident of student discipline, and the father was all "I am a big important businessman and you cannot treat my son that way." and the teacher answered "you became a successful businessman because you learned discipline." and he saw her point.

Anyway, I think the parent vs. teacher battle is not new. My dad was perhaps on the side of the teachers because his mother was a teacher.

[exboyfil]

68. You have hit the nail on the head -

My sister-in-law taught in a lower socio-economic area, and the contrast in the attitudes (or even the character of the parents) were dramatically different than her prior experience. The parents simply refused to believe what she said, and the father actually stole from the school.

I knew what would happen to me if I was ever a discipline problem at school, and my children are also aware of the consequences if they are a discipline problem.

No kid can learn in an environment in which other kid's behaviors are out of control. A teacher cannot be effective if the kids are not in control.

[Davis_X_Machina]

37. Baseball gives us the answer: You can't fire the team...

...there's 25 of them. So you fire the manager.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Older teachers have told me that a cultural change occurred somewhere along the line

In the olden days (1950s-1960s), if a kid misbehaved in class, the teacher would call the parents. In most cases, the kid behaved well after that, presumably after a lecture from Mom and Dad about not making trouble for the teacher and not shaming the family.

Nowadays, it often happens that a kid who is reprimanded in class runs home whining about being persecuted by the teacher for no reason. The parents call the principal or even the school board, and the teacher is made to appear the bad guy. (Don't get me wrong. Some teachers are unworthy of the name, but I even had college students whose parents called me angrily to ask why their little angel flunked my class. "Uh, because he skipped class for two months without a dean's excuse?")

Yes, there are a lot of brats on the loose these days, some because of too little parental attention, some because of too much.

I used to say of certain students, "I couldn't motivate them to jump if I set their shoes on fire."

[tomreedtoon]

39. It's because most teachers are child abusers.

And this is not judgment of my childhood. It comes from a decade of dating a teacher and seeing how she and her colleagues operate.

Most of them hate their students. I don't mean dislike, or seeing them as obstacles. I mean deep-seated loathing like a Klansman for a successful black man. They prepare tests with the barely-suppressed joy that the low grades their students will receive will be justified vengeance against them.

Many of them have no love of knowledge. I know of one who bought many books (claiming them as business expenses) but put them on shelves and never read them. In fact, she spent her evenings on her ass in a recliner, watching TV and drinking beer - from the beer tap and cooler installed in her living room.

They are not required to "teach from the text," but most do, because it's easier and meets the minimum requirements of the job. They do not see teaching as a creative act, but ditch-digging. There's no benefit or glory in teaching the little bastards to read, so why put yourself out to do it?

Complain about this post if you wish. I saw this happen in people's lives. You can't argue with reality. I'm being more charitable than the chorus of back-patting I see in this thread, blaming students for being stupid.

[WinkyDink]

50. I take issue with your title, but AS a retired teacher, I HAVE seen too many teachers uninterested

in learning their ACADEMIC subject (mine was English//British Lit). But dangle those ridiculous "education" courses---excuse me---"seminars for in-service credit"---and Katie, bar the door!

I once tried to compose a parody of "The 12 Days of Christmas" after one too many "9 Intelligence Types", "7 Habits of Highly Effective People", "4 Brain Quadrants", etc!

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Wow

Just. Wow.

[patrice]

67. Please give us a count of the sample upon which you base "most". Thanks.

:hi:

[tomreedtoon]

80. About ten or twelve teachers in Polk County, Florida.

I'm sorry I didn't compose a larger statistical sample for you - which you probably learned in one of those useless "education" courses they insist teachers must have. But I could only take enough bile, anger and alcoholic behavior from the teachers I met.

[patrice]

82. Your response to me demonstrates that your method of data collection may be warped. nt

[patrice]

83. dupe delete

[citizen snips]

69. agreed

especially special ed. in my area.

[gollygee]

71. Huh?

So you have a decade of dating a teacher, and perhaps a bad breakup, to base that on?

I have two parents, both of whom taught 35+ years, plus loads of aunts and uncles who did the same. And many, many friends who are teachers. I live among a circle of teachers. And most of them love children, and truly care about education. There are certainly a few bad apples among the lot, but most people who go into that profession do so because they love to work with kids and care about what they do.

[GaYellowDawg]

74. "Most"?

And this is not judgment of my childhood. It comes from a decade of dating a teacher and seeing how she and her colleagues operate.

So, basically, your take comes from dating one shitty teacher and a few of the colleagues who could bear to be around her. Nice sample size, there.

Most of them hate their students. I don't mean dislike, or seeing them as obstacles. I mean deep-seated loathing like a Klansman for a successful black man. They prepare tests with the barely-suppressed joy that the low grades their students will receive will be justified vengeance against them.

That's pretty peculiar. You see, as an education PhD student, I've worked with a lot of science teachers from a lot of different schools, and haven't seen a single one who matched that description. I've seen teachers who got exasperated with bad students or bad classes, but not a single one had "deep-seated loathing." Not a single one of them was stupid enough to think that low grades would be revenge for students who didn't care.

Many of them have no love of knowledge. I know of one who bought many books (claiming them as business expenses) but put them on shelves and never read them. In fact, she spent her evenings on her ass in a recliner, watching TV and drinking beer - from the beer tap and cooler installed in her living room.

And now, you're reduced to a sample size of one. I, on the other hand, have encountered too many teachers to count at conferences like NSTA (National Science Teachers Association), NABT (National Association of Biology Teachers), state conferences, and so forth, who can't wait to learn new approaches, new resources, and share those experiences/approaches/resources with other teachers. In working with the regional Science Bowl, I've seen teachers who find and celebrate the students who share their love for new knowledge.

They are not required to "teach from the text," but most do, because it's easier and meets the minimum requirements of the job. They do not see teaching as a creative act, but ditch-digging. There's no benefit or glory in teaching the little bastards to read, so why put yourself out to do it?

The teachers with whom I've worked put a lot of energy and time into presentations and examples that don't involve the textbook. None of them are in it for "glory" - but they are in it for that moment when they see the light bulb go on in a student's head.

Complain about this post if you wish.

Rebuttal would make more sense - so that's what I've chosen.

I saw this happen in people's lives. You can't argue with reality.

I can't argue with reality, true, but I sure can argue with an erroneous generalization based on anecdotal evidence of a biased sample and misleading vividness. For my part, sure, I'll admit that there are teachers who do nothing more than mark time - they're the same type as office workers who don't do anything but play Solitaire all day. I know I've seen a lot of the more motivated teachers, but I'm not naive enough to assume that they're all like the ones I've met. I can also tell you, though, that I have seen science departments in somewhere around 40 schools. They've been rural, suburban, and inner-city schools. I've seen honors classes. I've seen classes where literally half the students in the class had a probation officer. I haven't seen a single teacher like the ones you've described, and I haven't met a single department head who would tolerate a teacher like the ones you've described. It sounds to me like you dated a crappy teacher who was in a very poorly-run school. Unfortunately, that happens - but it's not the norm, and it doesn't represent "reality."

I'm being more charitable than the chorus of back-patting I see in this thread, blaming students for being stupid.

No, you're really not. You're being about as uncharitable as it gets when you start throwing around words like "most" and "reality."

As for students: Personally, I think that there are some kids who are innately brighter than others, and some that are less bright. However, I think that the very early experiences of children - prenatal care, the type of stimulation that children get as infants and toddlers - have much more of an effect than the innate intelligence. We're all born with an incredible number of neural connections, but at certain developmental stages, those that aren't being used die off. This means two things: innateness is generally less relevant than environment, and children can be molded to be particularly smart or dumb. Yes, new neural connections can be formed, but those are entirely dependent on the surviving ones. If students are stupid, some blame rests with parents. That said, the real pity is that there are many parents who would give their children proper stimulation if they knew how, and if they weren't working 3 part-time jobs to meet the bills. Until our society values all children enough to ensure that they're at a certain level on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we will always have kids who are doomed to be left behind by circumstance.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. Part of it is a backlash against the industrial model of teacher compensation

Teachers are paid based on seniority in the district, degrees and additional training. It assumes that all teachers are equally capable and the seniority matters in their performance. Its an assembly line concept that is being increasing regarded with suspicion in a day when teachers are PERCEIVED making more money have markedly better benefits, and plusher retirement programs than many. As the economy worsens, teachers should expect the negatives to increase, not decrease as they try to hold on to hard won benefits and wages.

When everyone else is taking major hits in their contracts, the teachers are going to find it hard to get support even from other union members for increased salaries or even holding the line on benefits and co-pays for insurance coverage. The retirement fight is still a few years off, but like the autoworkers, its coming.

Not sure what the way forward is going to be. Some sort of performance evaluation tied to salary is unavoidable, the only issue is how and when. The NEA really needs to get out front on that to stop plethora of local versions that are not in their members best interest.

[cynatnite]

43. Unfortunately, there are some bad teachers...

My oldest daughter got more than her share. One said that cabbage patch dolls were possessed. Another taped her to a chair with duct tape.

My sister had one when she was younger who told her that if she didn't do her homework she'd go to hell.

Sometimes it's the fault of the parents, sometimes it's the teacher and sometimes it's the student. Sometimes it's all three. My son has had problems and through a lot of hard work and working closely with his teacher, he is starting to do better. That's the ideal scenario.

Too bad it's not that way everywhere.

on edit: My son's school is top notch. They care about the students and go out of their way to help them.

[Sgent]

47. Law of large numbers?

The statistical law that says two groups of 150 kids should about average out with disabilities, honors students, etc. Therefore if one is performing, and the other is not, and the only difference is the teacher in question, then that leads to the obvious answer.

To be honest, I think that can only work for teachers within the same school. Otherwise, the differences in parental support, funding, poverty, etc. would be so dramatically different as to make a comparison meaningless.

[patrice]

59. Corelation is not causation. Until ALL factors are controlled except teaching, all you've got is cor

elation.

[insleeforprez]

88. You're assuming independence.

As in, the two samples of students are independently likely to succeed. That is clearly FALSE because one of the groups is probably from a more or less economically advantaged neighborhood than the other (among other factors that refute independence).

[Hanse]

48. I think you've got a lot to learn about school principals.

Your post is almost as misguided as the really disturbed post about teachers a couple of posts above this one.

[patrice]

55. Parents should stop taking economic advantage of their children and justifying it with

"It's good for them to learn financial responsibility."

Parents should either PAY for what their offspring want or tell their kids they don't need that $80.00 manicure for the prom, or they CAN drive the $3K car that dad CAN pay cash for. Instead of letting all of that go on, so "the Joneses" can see "how well we are doing", while the kids are soooo over-extended that they don't have the energy or motivation to think.

[gollygee]

72. What does this have to do with education?

And how is it relevant to most kids - ie those whose parents don't buy them cars and $80 manicures?

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. I agree. The price of tea in China is exorbitant. n/t

[justabob]

60. very complex problem

There are so many things that are impacting education it is hard to know what the single most important thing is. Poorly funded schools, poorly funded parents, parental neglect, anti-intellectualism, overwhelmed teachers..... Certainly parental involvement is a major factor, but it is more than that. How many parents are working multiple jobs? How many single parents are there? How many kids are going to schools where 95% of the student body don't speak english as their first language, or at all? The district in my home town recently uncovered an 84 million dollar mistake in their budget..... how is that even possible?! The administration can't even "do the math" and how does that impact the attitude of teachers, staff, parents, students and the future employers of these kids?

I don't have a good answer for your very good questions.... I don't even know where to start. My experience so far has been excruciating to say the least. My son now lives with his aunts because in the job I had prevented me from being able to do all the things good parents do....Why didn't I find another job and put my son's education first? Well because that job, though required 50+ hours a week and at hours not conducive to school schedules, paid well enough to pay the bills. I do not have many options because of my own education and experience. I am very fortunate that we have family that can and did step up to make sure that my son got the attention he needs, not everyone has that. It takes a village.

[patrice]

66. It DOES take a village and our villages are busted-up by all sorts of things.

churches/ideologies, strip-malls, highways, social classes, you name it . . .

[notadmblnd]

65. Why did my son fail algebra last year but is acing it this year?

His teacher last year was very popular with the students, yet my son failed. This year, his algebra teacher isn't the popular one with the students. Different kids have different learning styles just as teachers have different teaching styles. I don't know the answer, all I know is the difference this year is like night and day.

[seabeyond]

78. isnt that the truth. math teacher last year son didnt like and refused to learn....

her style didnt mish with him at all. her explainations were not a way he could hear and he wasnt comfortable asking her for explanation. it was an pre AP course

i insisted he at least try pre AP this year and though still his harder subject, he doesnt get it he is comfortable going to her after school. they work together.

BUT

i told my son, he will not always mesh. HE has to figure out a way to continue to learn cause it doesnt hurt the teacher, does hurt him. and the real world, there will be bosses and employees he doesnt like. just have to suck it up

[tinymontgomery]

84. To me this is an important

statement "the real world, there will be bosses and employees he doesn't like". School shouldn't be just about learning subjects but also how the real world is going to treat you. Fail a test and it is like failing a marketing presentation, your fired. School should be a place to learn and if you fail, you learn from it and try again, the consequences are not as harsh. The real world may not give you that second chance.
I was getting ready to take 20 kids on a trip to Cape Canaveral FL for 3 days. We were leaving right after school, a senior that is going on the trip decides to my class that day and was just going to show up for the trip. I called the mom and said he is off the trip, she called the principal who then called me and tried to talk me into taking him. I said no and I would cancel if forced to. This kid was going into the navy and I tried to get the principal to understand that the penalty I'm giving is nothing like the navy would give and this provides the student a chance to redeem himself with out a major problem but that there are penalties for breaking the rules. It never affected his grade etc just lost the opportunity to travel with the group. He made no mistakes and did very well the rest of the year.

[seabeyond]

85. exactly

which is the ultimate in parenting i see lacking so much today. often the boys do something, from the youngest of ages, i would say, that job there, your ass would be fired. or.... a boss doesn't want to hear the whine or the excuse. so many many advantages in raising child, every day stuff that will prepare the kids for when they step into adulthood. and it isn't hard. we all were there, we know the missteps. kids do their own bank account. we bring our lessons to the real world. repercussions matter. their choices matter, both good and bad, they get to own it.

at the school, i know the adm, the teachers and i always support them even when they are not particularly in the right. kids never get excuses for not excelling. and my oldest has a learning hurtle, even that is no excuse. may be knowledge in why he does or not does things, but he has to recognize in self and find tools....

all of life is full of lessons.

i like your stand.

i always feel good, thankful when an adult actually makes a stand today. so often that is lacking for our children and ultimately it really does hurt them

i never was punished. could always talk my way out. i got older and had to learn to punish myself, lol

[TheKentuckian]

76. There are many factors-environment, parenting, lak of materials, general approach of education

and yes there are some ineffective teachers too. I'm fairly protective of teachers but I also think it is nuts that some will pretend this is the one field in the world where there aren't significant weak links.

I think we're running a poor model in general. The 30 students being taught to the middle is a scam that goes over the heads and too quickly for some and bores others to the point of inattention and certainly fails to challenge them in a way that promotes growth. School has just become child storage so that both parents can contribute to the tax base and buy crap.
In general terms, blaming the teachers is a way to distract from the real problems and an excuse to keep cutting resources and of course to stiff teachers on pay. They figure a few bucks an hour is good enough for a babysitter. Abolish private and home schools and we'll see things change pretty quick for the better. Better yet, take another step and end district based financing and all the sudden we'll start climbing the ladder.

[anonymous171]

81. Their job is to teach students. Just like a UPS guy's job is to deliver packages.

[tinymontgomery]

86. Could the UPS

guy deliver packages if the address weren't on the boxes, or if the company didn't give him enough gas for the truck. Would he be responsible if the person sending the box didn't put everything in it then shipped it and complained items were missing because they forgot to put them in? Would the UPS guy be responsible if the person shipping didn't pay the proper amount so it didn't get shipped? I think not.

[Midlodemocrat]

87. As an ex-teacher and current parent, it's because the vast

majority of teachers are incompetent. They are incompetent in dealing with their subject matter and the way they deal with children.

A great many of them subscribe to the mantra that teaching is either the easiest job you'll ever do, or the hardest. And take the former.

In what other profession can you take your 'bad mood' out on your co-workers? Or subordinates? Or clients? None.

After the VA Tech shootings, all three of my kids came home telling me what a bad mood so and so was in.

What. Utter. Bullshit.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the positive educational experiences my kids have had in this system. One teacher stands out. One.

That is simply fucking pathetic.

Maybe my standards are too high, but I always taught my classes to the best of my ability and left my personal problems in my car.

[DemBones DemBones]

90. How many years did you teach?

Did you teach in more than one school?