How is this not murder? Video shows officer shoot unarmed man in back as partner kneels on him.

[Liberal_in_LA]

How the @#$% is this not murder?

Edited with better tape. This rolls the tape until the actual shooting. The cop stands up and executes a man lying face down. shocking.

http://observers.france24.com/en/content/20090106-shocking-police-blunder-caught-phone-camera-oakland-bart-oscar-grant-shot

Video of California police shooting spurs investigation

Attorney files $25 million claim, calls shooting "unconscionable"

Video shows officer shoot Oscar Grant in back as another officer kneels on him

BART: Video inconclusive, vows to conduct "thorough, unbiased investigation"

Witness tells KTVU: "We was already following directions ... and they shot him"

CNN) -- A New Year's Day shooting in which a subway police officer fired a deadly shot into the back of an unarmed man has the San Francisco Bay Area demanding answers as authorities appeal for patience.


Grant holds up his hands, appearing to plead with police. Burris said Tuesday that Grant was asking police not to use a Taser.

"He said to them, 'Don't Tase me; I have a 4-year-old daughter,' " Burris said.

The interaction on the video is not audible.

Seconds later, police put Grant face-down on the ground. Grant appears to struggle.

One of the officers kneels on Grant as another officer stands up, tugs at his gun, unholsters it and fires a shot into Grant's back.

Burris said the bullet went through Grant's back and then ricocheted off the floor and through his lungs.


http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/06/BART.shooting/index.html

[GodlessBiker]

1. Presumed innocent. Like so many defendants in jail awaiting trial.

[Webster Green]

2. I hate fucking pigs!

Next one that fucks with me will have his pig hands full. :mad:

[deaniac21]

14. Be still my heart! You are so brave!

[Webster Green]

37. Hey Baby!

Wha's up? :smoke:

[Cid_B]

43. *pokes you*

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

[Obamanaut]

80. Just say no, refuse the first kiss, then walk away. nt

[Rebubula]

95. Calm down...

...don't go looking for trouble when there is none.

Sorry...most cops are good, honest and hardworking people with families. There are also quite a few that suck and need to be culled from society. A few bad apples and all that.

That said...this guy needs to be charged with manslaughter at the least.

[trashcanistanista]

3. I saw the cell phone video on the news today.

It definitely was murder. Thank god for cell phones and the courage of the bystanders.

[liberal1973]

4. Both should death penalty

Both dirt bags should get the death penalty.

If a cop was murdered the same way, the pos would get the death penalty.

[Fumesucker]

5. Silly human, murder charges are for civilians

Not cops.

[Starry Messenger]

6. I don't know why this isn't getting more attention.

The second film is graphic and shocking. It's getting out on Youtube, too. There better be a big fucking outcry over this. The guy was slaughtered.

[Liberal_in_LA]

8. CNN has this as the main article...story is getting out

[Starry Messenger]

9. Good. I've been following it locally.

Thank you. Local news shows allowed some BART spokespeople to view the film. Interesting reactions to say the least.

[dpbrown]

7. Those officers should be convicted and then put in the general prison population

What they get there would be justice.

[slackmaster]

10. For discussion, I present the legal definition of murder from the California Penal Code

187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a
fetus, with malice aforethought.
(b) This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act
that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply:
(1) The act complied with the Therapeutic Abortion Act, Article 2
(commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division
106 of the Health and Safety Code.
(2) The act was committed by a holder of a physician's and surgeon'
s certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a
case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be
death of the mother of the fetus or where her death from childbirth,
although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or
more likely than not.
(3) The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the
mother of the fetus.
(c) Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the
prosecution of any person under any other provision of law.

188. Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when
there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away
the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable
provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing
show an abandoned and malignant heart.
When it is shown that the killing resulted from the intentional
doing of an act with express or implied malice as defined above, no
other mental state need be shown to establish the mental state of
malice aforethought. Neither an awareness of the obligation to act
within the general body of laws regulating society nor acting despite
such awareness is included within the definition of malice....

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199

Just to start an exchange, I can't tell from watching any of the videos just what was going on in the mind of the police officer who fired the shot. I can't tell whether or not the shooting was intentional.

It was definitely what we in the firearm community call a "bad shoot" - It was not necessary under the circumstances.

For me the relevant questions are:

1) Was the shooting intentional, or was it an accident?, and

2) If it was intentional, why did the officer shoot the man?

I don't know the answer to either question, therefore I cannot say whether or not a murder was committed.

An unjustified killing, no doubt.

[anigbrowl]

69. I think you've misunderstood the stature here

The point is not to know what was going through the mind of the officer - indeed, the statute says " no other mental state need be shown to establish the mental state of malice aforethought." I this case, malice aforethought is implied because 'no considerable provocation appears'.

It would be manslaughter if, say, a police officer drew his gun for some legitimate reason, dropped it, and it went off and the random bullet killed someone. But in this case the officer clearly drew his gun when he and other officers already had the guy down on the ground. He might argue that he meant to drw his taser, but police procedure is to wear the taser (if he even had one - BART doesn't have that many) on the opposite side of the body from his strong hand so that the officer is required to reach across his body, precisely to prevent such mix-ups.

I would be sympathetic to the taser mistake argument if this were a shootout where an officer was confronting someone else who presented an imminent danger, eg running towards the officer with a weapon or apparent intent and capability to do physical harm. But that's clearly not the case here.

[slackmaster]

89. He may have drawn the gun for reasons not clear from the video

Mishandled it (i.e. handled it "without due caution"), and fired it accidentally, without malice.

That would be manslaughter, not murder. From the California PC:

192. Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without
malice. It is of three kinds:
(a) Voluntary--upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.
(b) Involuntary--in the commission of an unlawful act, not
amounting to felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which might
produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and
circumspection. This subdivision shall not apply to acts committed in
the driving of a vehicle....

[anigbrowl]

93. I see your point, but he's going to have a hard time arguing that

Considering that Oscar Grant is lying prone on the ground and there's another officer kneeling by his head whole the shooter kneels by or on his back, he's going to have to come up with a really impressive explanation of why he decided to stand up and draw his weapon before he gets near the 'accidental trigger finger' part of his defense. As you can see from the video, there are 3 non-police witnesses within a few feet of the whole incident on the platform.

[slackmaster]

94. Agreed

The cop is in deep yogurt, maybe going to prison, and Oscar Grant should not have died.

[Uzybone]

11. Cold blooded murder

how does an officer mistake a taser for a gun? So we are believe he thought he was grabbing his taser and pulled the trigger without realizing it was a gun?

[Liberal_in_LA]

12. Is that what he's saying?

[slackmaster]

13. One early report said that

I don't know where the information came from or what value it has.

[Starry Messenger]

17. The officer isn't. BART has floated the idea in the press.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/BAK61540MH.DTL

[anigbrowl]

67. He isn't saying anything - no statement filed after a week

The 'taser mistake' is something floated by a 3rd party expert who's an ex-cop, and (obviously) is trying to find the most charitable explanation for the shooting. But nobody is buying it, for fairly obvious reasons.

[slackmaster]

15. Some kinds of tasers are ergonomically similar to handguns

It would be a stupid mistake, but I can see how it could happen in the heat of a moment. To someone who is under-trained, or probably should never have become a cop in the first place.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

18. I find it interesting that the officer covers his mouth briefly after the shooting....

.....as if "what the fuck did I just do." The other cop seems to be reacting the same way.

That's about all I have on the subject. I have no desire to defend cops but it's quite possible this is a horrible AND criminally negligent mistake.

[slackmaster]

19. I find the videos very unsatisfying in terms of explaining what happened

Your hypothesis makes a lot of sense.

[Liberal_in_LA]

23. agree. Clearest video here. Both cops are like "WTF"!? Don't seem to do much to get the guy medica

care. Just turn him over like a rag doll like they can't believe they really shot him. I'm surprised they didn't kick him to check if he's dead.

Listen to the crowd roar in disbelief right after the shot,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idJAr6NUy3E

[Uzybone]

30. This one shows it the clearest

fucking cop stood up, held his weapon at arms length and fired. Sickening.

[slackmaster]

35. Clear as mud

The cop looks surprised after the shot, almost as if he wasn't expecting it.

The crowd of people taunting the cops and pointing cameras at them didn't make the situation any easier to handle. This video shows that aspect of it very clearly.

[anigbrowl]

68. Oh no, police officer shouldn't be recorded on cameras...

I'm sorry, if having witnesses around makes a cop's job more difficult then what we need is a better grade of cop. Me, i think that this is going to go down in history as the first murder solved by citizen-owned cheap cameras. And yes, i do mean murder rather than manslaughter, even though it's not premeditated.

[slackmaster]

90. I strongly believe they should be recorded on camera whenever they interact with a suspect

Don't get me wrong.

My beef is with the behavior of the crowd. They were rowdy, shouting insults at the police, which certainly does not make their job any easier. You can record videos without getting in peoples' faces.

It's not clear to me what precipitated the whole mess.

[CreekDog]

102. people should be free to shout displeasure at police

nobody should be shot over that, even accidentally.

[RedCappedBandit]

41. MURDER. There is NO question. WTF

[slackmaster]

57. Do you know what the word "murder" means in California?

I posted it in reply #10 if you aren't sure.

[CreekDog]

49. and they handcuff the guy they just shot

take a look again

son of a ------!!!!!!!!!!

[Lilith Velkor]

64. No they didn't; his arm is clearly visible after they turn him over

All visible limbs twitching. :scared:

Those fucking pigs need to do serious time.

[anigbrowl]

70. Yes they did, the Bart police chief said so in a press confeence the other day. This is SOP

There was a video of the whole press conference along with a transcript on the BART website, but they have since taken it down 9surprise). But I watched it twice last night (I live in the bay Area) - he most definitely said they had handcuffd him afterwards and explained that this was the normal procedure. He also said the officers are trained to give first aid but that this does not extend to treating gunshot wounds.

[CreekDog]

98. various reports say they handcuffed him after they shot him

witnesses have said that too.

[Liberal_in_LA]

99. OMG. They didn't care if he died. Just hoped there was no video

[CreekDog]

100. Apparently they are trained not to give a fuck

what their colleagues do.

i'm speaking out of anger here.

[conscious evolution]

73. Be carefull with this link

I just tried to watch the video and halfway thru it my firewall started going crazy with notifications of attempted entry to my computer followed by it crashing.

[CreekDog]

48. and then doesn't the officer handcuff the man?

what the hell?

[slackmaster]

58. No, I don't believe that is what happened

It's not clear exactly what they did after the shot. There is a long moment where they all have a "WTF" look on their faces, and aren't really doing anything.

[anigbrowl]

71. It has since been confirmed by the BART police chief that they did.

Unfortunately, the video & transcript of the press conference has disappeared from the BART website, and I didn't save it. There is confusion in the media with many sites suggesting that Grant was handcuffed at the time of the shooting, which does NOT appear to be the case.

[slackmaster]

88. Thanks

It's pretty hard to tell from the videos.

[CreekDog]

101. and then handcuffs the guy he shot

at least according to some witnesses.

[lonestarnot]

21. What a cockamamee excuse for murder.

[L0oniX]

16. It's only a few bad apples ...hmmm ...yea right

[Mike 03]

20. Yes, I saw it. What a horror.

It was so horrific, I was wondering if maybe the cop thought he was going to phasse the boy, not shoot him and reached for the wrong weapon.

[slackmaster]

22. Another possible explanation I've heard

He had his finger on the trigger, was trying to do something with his left hand, and the right hand fired the gun in a sympathetic action.

That's why one of the firearm safety rules is to keep your booger hook off the bang switch until you are sure it's OK to fire. The four safety rules are the first things that competent instructors teach new shooters.

(I'm not sure that is a plausible explanation, but someone did write that in another forum I read that is frequented by police.)

[Uzybone]

29. Its plausible, but why draw your weapon in a situation like that?

Police should not draw loaded guns everytime they want some one to lay on the ground in cuffs. Its not like there was not adequate back up. There were at least 5 cops there with him.

Maybe calling it murder is too harsh, but it definitely a negligent homicide.

[slackmaster]

33. That would be a violation of another one of the four safety rules

Never point a firearm at something you are not willing to destroy.

Break just one rule, you won't have a serious issue.

Break any two rules simultaneously, and you are set up for a tragic event.

[Liberal_in_LA]

26. shooter's name is Johannes Meherle, age 27, baby born a few days before shooting. hasn't spoken to

investigators yet.

[slackmaster]

27. No matter how this turns out, his life will be ruined by the event

Bummer. Maybe he was sleep deprived (in which case he shouldn't have been carrying a weapon).

[Liberal_in_LA]

28. at least he's alive, no one shut a bullet thru HIS back.

[CreekDog]

50. Mr. Grant certainly had his life ruined by this event

i have never felt safer because a BART cop was around. this ain't helpin to change that.

i have been on trains too many times where the cops didn't know what the fuck was going on (hell, they never ride the damn trains anyway, half the time they are in patrol cars, transit cops spending tons of times in patrol cars!)

i have watched cops stop trains looking for homeless people who were laying across two seats, trains full of commuters. yes, they would stop and hold up trains for several minutes delaying passengers and all the trains behind. messed up!

i have sat on trains where day after day the same unruly kids harassed passengers for over a week. this was as predictable as the sunrise, even the timing was the same, hell, it happened on my evening commute and always started after Downtown Oakland until the kids got off in Orinda or Lafayette.

the cops were called every single day for this, they stopped trains, we waited. took them over a week to stop this crap.

BART is a good system in many ways, but their management is god-awful. strikes, low morale, centralized authority that disempowers anybody on the front lines from making any decision to actually fix something on the spot.

sometimes i hate BART.

[anigbrowl]

74. Please get the details right. Baby born on 1/2/09.

[Catherine Vincent]

24. That fucking pig better do hard time for this!

:mad:

[Political Tiger]

25. Could be manslaughter

or involuntary manslaughter, as legally defined by law. As I understand he (the cop) may have been reaching for a stun gun instead of a regular gun. At least that's what they are saying.

[anigbrowl]

76. Well, gee, that would be convenient

'Sorry, I meant to take out my ID but instead I pulled a gun and accidentally shot the officer - oops!' No, that doesn't sound too plausible either. You don't draw a gun by accident - the police here use special holsters that require you to pull it out in a certain way (not least to prevent a criminal trying to draw a cop's gun during a struggle). I have a friend who's a senior police trainer in the Oakland PD, and he doesn't find the accidental stun gun argument convincing either.

BART cops wear the tazer on the opposite side of the best from their gun to avoid such mistakes, and in any case the officer wasn't under fire or in imminent physical danger.

[TheKentuckian]

31. and some people want to disarm the populace

fuck that.


The reactions indicate lack of intent but that requires a pretty spectacular explanation of what happened and why because there aren't many great reasons to shoot someone laying face down on the ground in the back.

There would be no end to the outcry if some one accidentally shot a cop, well I say better them than us. Their mission is supposedly to protect and serve but when they fail or even do the polar opposite there are no consequences.
Personally, I believe that cops are either worthless or even may do more harm than good. I'll take my chances without them. Good aim and being alert will save you a good cop will catch the guy that put you down. I'll take my own odds.

[RedCappedBandit]

32. Oh, but most cops do an honest day's work!!

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[slackmaster]

34. I couldn't do a job where a mistake could result in someone's death

Bus driver, cop, heavy equipment operator, surgeon, air traffic controller...

Forget it, not for me.

[RedCappedBandit]

40. Quite some 'mistake' this guy made

[slackmaster]

56. Yes, I'd have a hard time living with myself after doing something like that

Wouldn't you?

[Liberal_in_LA]

91. saw a step by step analysis of the shooting, the shooter & other cop stare at each other for a

moment... like "WTF did you just do", and the shooter puts his hands to his head quickly. It's so weird how the cop stood up, pulled the gun, and shot the guy.

[CRF450]

47. Are you trying to lable the majority of police officers as bad men?

Cause thats really not the case. Yes their are big time F ups, but this in no way means most police officers are big bullies.

[aikoaiko]

36. It sure doesn't look like lethal force was required.

Mistaking his firearm for a taser or having on his trigger on the trigger is clearly negligent.

[Recursion]

38. Tasers are not supposed to be used for compliance, anyways NT

[aikoaiko]

39. Do you mean to say that is Oakland Police policy?

:shrug:

[Recursion]

44. To my knowledge no PD in the country "allows" it

It's a policy as universal and as universally ignored as race-blind traffic stops.

[aikoaiko]

62. I'm under the impression that tasers are in the continuum of the use of force to gain 'control'

Here's one site that describes the use of force continuum. Tasers are in the fourth lever of 6.

It looks like the police were well into the third level (Hard Empty Hand techniques) and if the person was continuing to struggle (I can't really tell), its possible that the officer was going to the next level with a taser (or so he thought).

The officer made a huge mistake (whether it be that he mistook his gun for a taser, accidentally pulled the trigger, or purposefully killed the person) and he deserves the consequences of his actions.

http://www.policetest.info/FORCE_CONTINUUM_POLICE_USE_OF_FORCE.htm

Level One

Officer Presence. The mere presence of a police officer in uniform or in a marked police unit is often enough to stop a crime in progress or prevent most situations from escalating. Without saying a word, the mere presence of a police officer can deter crime by the simple use of body language and gestures. At this level gestures should be non-threatening and professional. This "zero" level of force is always the best way to resolve any situation if possible.

Level Two

Verbal Commands. Used in combination with a visible presence, the use of the voice can usually achieve the desired results. Whether you instruct a person to, "Stop.", "Don't Move.", "Be quiet.", "Listen to me.", "Let me see your ID.", or, "You're under arrest."-- voice commands in conjunction with your mere presence will almost always resolve the situation. The content of the message is as important as your demeanor. It’s always best to start out calm but firm and non-threatening. Your choice of words and intensity can be increased as necessary, or used in short commands in more serious situations. The right combination of words in combination with officer presence can de-escalate a tense situation and prevent the need for a physical altercation. Training and experience improves the ability of a police officer to communicate effectively with everyone he/she comes in contact with.

Level Three

Empty Hand Control. Certain situations will arise where words alone will not reduce the aggression. This is the time police officers will need to get involved physically. This is a level of control employed by police officers minus the aid of equipment or weapons. There are two subcategories called, “soft empty hand techniques” and “hard empty hand techniques.” Soft Empty Hand Techniques: At this level minimal force would involve the use of bare hands to guide, hold, and restrain -- applying pressure points, and take down techniques that have a minimal chance of injury. Hard Empty Hand Techniques: At this level the use of force includes kicks, punches or other striking techniques such as the brachial stun or other strikes to key motor points that have a moderate chance of injury.

Level Four

Pepper Spray, Baton, Taser. When the suspect is violent or threatening, more extreme, but non-deadly measures must be used to bring the suspect under control, or affect an arrest. Before moving to this level of force, it is assumed that less physical measures have been tried and deemed inappropriate. Pepper spray results in considerable tearing of the eyes, as well as temporary paralysis of the larynx, which causes subjects to lose their breath. Contact with the face causes a strong burning sensation. Pepper spray, once thought an effective street tool for police officers has lost popularity over the years because of its ineffectiveness, especially on intoxicated persons. The typical baton is a round stick of various lengths, and is made of hardwood, aluminum or plastic composite materials. A blow with a baton can immobilize a combative person, allowing officers to affect an arrest. Common impact weapon used by police today include the PR-24 and collapsible baton. Of all the options available at this level the Taser, in my opinion, is the most effective. The Taser discharges a high voltage spark (50,000 volts) at very low amperage. The Taser fires two small darts, connected to wires, which drops a suspect at non-contact distance. These devices are easily carried. They are lightweight and affordable. Extensive training is not required, and they may be more effective on persons under the influence of PCP and other drugs who do not respond to chemical irritants. They can be especially useful for controlling non-criminal violent behavior, such as persons who are mentally impaired, or under the influence of mind-altering substances.

[CreekDog]

51. don't confuse BART police with Oakland police

different agencies.

[anigbrowl]

77. Oakland police =/= BART police, FYI.

[Liberal_in_LA]

45. Doesn't even look like taser was needed. They had him under their control even if he did struggle

And if the two couldn't handle it there were other cops milling about that could have helped.

[Liberal_in_LA]

54. Police expert views videos and says it looks like an execution.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/MNOV154P0R.DTL

Another expert, Roy Bedard, who has trained police officers around the world, advanced a different theory after his first viewing of the video: that the shooting was a pure accident, a trigger pulled because of a loss of balance or a loud noise.

But in an indication of how the videos might move the investigation, Bedard reached a different conclusion after viewing the shooting from a different angle.

"Looking at it, I hate to say this, it looks like an execution to me," he said. "It really looks bad for the officer. ... We have to get inside his head and figure out what he was thinking when he fired the shot."

[slackmaster]

59. "We have to get inside his head and figure out what he was thinking when he fired the shot."

To complete Mr. Bedard's quoted statement, just to be fair.

Obviously the shooting was wrong. The man should not have been killed. Murder requires a particular state of mind, i.e. malice aforethought, and the act has to be intentional. Remove one or both, and you have a negligent homicide or manslaughter. For any of the above, that cop's career is toast. He may end up with a felony conviction.

[anigbrowl]

78. Drawing the gun is an intentional act

The law does not require proof of mental state (please see my reply to your post #10). Otherwise anyone could get off a murder charge by saying they didn't actually intend to pull the trigger, it just sort of happened.

[slackmaster]

87. Yes, and drawing a gun is not the same thing as firing it, nor does it always lead to that

...The law does not require proof of mental state (please see my reply to your post #10)....

A reflexive hand movement, or some other kind of purely unINTENTIONAL discharge, would not meet the standard for murder.

He may have had a legitimate reason to draw the gun. The videos don't show everything. It's pretty clear to me he didn't have a legitimate reason to fire it.

[tabasco]

97. You don't understand implied intent.

Reckless disregard for human life can be implied intent.

[Guaranteed]

42. It could have been an accident. nt

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

46. A few days ago, lots of people at DU rallied to the defense of the police

There was some story about a WWII buff and war re-enactor who dressed in a Nazi uniform and was holding a WWII rifle. The police shot him dead. We only heard one side of the story in that incident. The police claimed that #1 he did point the weapon directly at them and #2 they gave him a warning before opening fire. Few posters in that thread questioned whether that is actually what took place and most posters automatically swallowed the police version of the events without any doubt whatsoever. That disappointed me about those DUers. I'm not saying that isn't how it played out, but we don't know the other side if there was one, as the guy is dead.

It's clear that the police do make mistakes. They do shoot individuals unjustifiably on occasion and sometimes they even shoot them intentionally and without just cause. In the case of the guy in the WWII uniform, there was no video tape or cell phone footage of the incident. Who knows what the official police version of the events would have been in this present case if there had been no visuals available?

We need to respect the police for the job they do, but we can't worship them and think that they never lie or make mistakes. If we automatically believe everything the police says then there's no need to put criminal defendants on trial with the right to confront their accusers and we might just as well string 'em up right away.

[Uzybone]

52. This needs to be the biggest news of the day tomorrow

Not Burris, Blago, Gupta or any of that shit.

We have an officer more or less execute a man in public. I'm not one of the cop haters, but this cannot be defended. Unless the cop thought his gun fired blanks (ha) there is no reason for him to stand over a subdued man, extend his arm and fire a bullet into his back.

[Liberal_in_LA]

53. cop receiving death threats, video goes viral, 1000 views an hour, BART upset with video spread

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/BAVT154HIG.DTL&tsp=1

01-06) 22:06 PST San Francisco -- Johannes Mehserle, the BART police officer who fatally shot a man on the Fruitvale Station platform in Oakland early New Year's Day, is being kept under wraps and moved from place to place after receiving a number of death threats, BART spokesman Linton Johnson confirmed Tuesday night.

Mehserle, 27, a two-year veteran of the BART police force, shot and killed 22-year-old Oscar Grant of Hayward as Grant lay face-down on the station platform following a fight between two groups on a train.

While the nature of the threats hasn't been revealed, Johnson said at least one of the threats was made to Mehserle's family. As a result, he has been moved twice.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/MNOV154P0R.DTL

BART shooting captured on video
Matthew B. Stannard,Demian Bulwa, Chronicle Staff Writers

Wednesday, January 7, 2009


(01-06) 21:23 PST -- The New Year's Day shooting death of Oscar Grant on an Oakland BART platform has been electronically re-enacted hundreds of thousands of times as videos of the incident are broadcast on television and spread over the Internet.

The videos now could play a critical role in the investigation into the shooting of Grant, 22, by BART police Officer Johannes Mehserle, 27.

Three videos made public so far show Grant's final moments from multiple angles in a way that could help investigators, attorneys and use-of-force experts determine whether the shooting was accidental, intentional or inexplicable.

The videos - taken by onlookers - have been downloaded more than 450,000 times from KTVU-TV's Web site, said William Murray, the site's managing editor. That's tantamount to two months' worth of downloads in a few days, he said. An annotated version of one video uploaded to YouTube on Sunday was averaging more than 1,000 views an hour.

"It's taken on a life of its own," said Murray. "It's one of those phenomenons of the Internet world."

BART spokesman Linton Johnson said the agency was troubled by the way the video footage had become a media sensation.

[slackmaster]

60. Angry mobs have never been very good at administering justice

That's why we have courts.

[Raineyb]

79. I'll save my sympathy for someone who truly deserves it

like the family of the man that son of a bitch executed.

Regards

[anigbrowl]

82. BART are so troubled they took down their own video of the press conference w/ BART police chief

I'm not very sympathetic to BART right now. The one problem for justice, though, is that it's going to be hard to find 12 people for a jury who haven't seen the footage.

[Uzybone]

55. 5 days later, the officer has yet to even give a statement

This is very troubling. Are they trying to sweep this under the rug?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/BAK61540MH.DTL


"Five days have passed since a BART police officer shot and killed an unarmed rider on a station platform, but the officer has not given a statement to investigators about what happened and the transit agency has apparently not forced him to do so.

The delay comes as witnesses emerge with their accounts of what happened, some with video footage of the incident recorded on cellular phones. The hold-up is one reason why BART officials - even in the face of public outcry - have said little publicly about the shooting, including whether they believe it was justified."

[slackmaster]

61. Maybe we should get Nancy Grace on the case to get it moving

:sarcasm:

Seriously, with a $25 million wrongful death claim already filed, I can't blame the people running the investigation for taking their time. This is not something on which anyone should rush to judgement.

I see a lot of anti-cop attitude on this board. I felt that way for a time in my life, but since it's been well over 20 years since I had a negative interaction of any kind with a police officer, I've become a lot more forgiving and willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I interact with a few of them socially now.

There are bad cops out there, but there isn't any convincing evidence that this tragedy involved one. Most of them are really good people.

[Raineyb]

65. Really?

What part of cop shot a guy while he was prone on the ground in the back reads "good cop" to you?

Regards

[slackmaster]

85. The "I can't read the mind of a person who is a subject in a cell phone video" part

Maybe when the first generation of Tricorders come out, such a thing will be possible.

[Raineyb]

105. Good cops don't shoot prone men in the back

You don't have to be a mind reader to understand that.

Regards

[slackmaster]

110. There are two kinds of cops that are not good

Evil, and just incompetent.

[Uzybone]

83. If thats what it takes...

I'm not anti cop, but this was a flat out murder or at the very least negligent homicide. Bad cops are bad because they do bad things. This is the worst thing Ive ever see a cop do to a citizen. Shooting him in the back in cold blood.

I thought the cop who shot the idiot prancing about in a Nazi uniform and rifle did the right thing, but this is a whole different scenario.

[slackmaster]

86. Saying "...murder or at the very least negligent homicide..." covers a lot of territory

And I agree that the incident falls somewhere along that continuum (involuntary manslaughter per PC 192(b) at the very least).

Let me make this abundantly clear:

I'm not now nor have I ever made a difinitive statement that the shooting does not constitute a murder. It may turn out that way. I don't have enough information to tell, and I don't believe anyone on this forum does either.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

63. If It Was Intentional, It's Murder. If It Was Accidental, It's Manslaughter.

Either way there should be prison time and it's heartbreaking to read what occurred. I feel for Grant's family/daughter.

[tabasco]

111. And if it was reckless, it can be either.

Thanks for the input, Perry Mason.

[anigbrowl]

66. sfgate.com (sf chronicle) has had extensive coverage, with better video

Unfortunately the video isn't as large, but they have had video showing the shooting (from a better angle) for several days. Someone sent copies to the local TV stations. There are more details at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/07/MNOV154P0R.DTL if you want to check it out (the video on the page is tiny, look for the 'view larger size' link on the left).

It's a dreadful case, and I don't buy the weak argument that maybe the deputy was tired and meant to draw his taser but accidentlaly pulled his gun' being advanced by some. With so much forensic (ie video) evidence and so many witnesses, both right next to the officers and victim and from the train, I'm pretty sure this cop is going to jail for a long time...and the other cops who didn't stop or put him into custody on the spot could also be in trouble.

[stuntcat]

84. the interview with the girl..

Everybody watch this.
I watched it yesterday. When she got on the BART to get away from it she wasn't sure what she'd just seen. She tried to believe the guy was just tazed, not KILLED, then later found out what she'd actually filmed. I'm glad she was able to leave with the video so everyone could see.

[Liberal_in_LA]

92. Bart seemed to put all its hopes on there being no video. They even claimed

there were no Bart cameras until they were called on it. If there was no video this cop would have gotten away with a cold blooded killing.

[Starry Messenger]

72. The "taser theory" is very questionable.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_11389946?nclick_check=1

"BART police began training to use Tasers about three months ago, BART spokesman Linton Johnson said.

The department does not have enough of the stun guns to equip every officer with one, Gee said. When officers do carry Tasers, he added, they are kept on a separate part of their belts from their service pistols.

"They keep those Tasers on the opposite side of their gun hand, or in the middle, pointed the opposite direction so you have to turn your hand to get it," Burris said. "No movement (on the videos) suggests (the officer) was reaching for anything other than the location where the gun was."

Burris said he has not requested any information from BART police but plans to submit a request in the next day or two."

[Raineyb]

75. And if it were a taser it certainly wouldn't be any better.

Tasering a man while he's down on the ground is abuse to say the very, very, very least.

Regards

[Starry Messenger]

81. Absolutely agree.

Good point. I just wanted to highlight that the "Oh, he was reaching for his taser and missed" scenario is extremely implausible to me.

[Raineyb]

106. It sounds utterly implausible to me too

A complete crock of shit would be the phrase I'd use.

There is absolutely no excuse for what happened; although as per usual there are those who make excuses for the police no matter what they do. Apparently being caught on tape shooting a man in the back while he lay on the ground is not enough wrong-doing to refrain from making excuses.

There aren't enough words to express my disgust.

Regards

[Starry Messenger]

107. No, there is no excuse.

I'm totally sickened by it. I live 5 blocks away from that station and heard the sirens that night. This is fucking tragic. Sorry if I sounded impersonal.

[Raineyb]

109. No need for an apology it wasn't a slam at you.l

It was more a general comment on some other responses that I've read. I apologize if it sounded as though I were directing it at you. I did not mean it that way at all.

Regards

[CreekDog]

108. reviews of the video shows the officer reach and remove his taser earlier

in other words, he had reached for and used his taser not long before. reaching for his gun required a different movement.

other experts are saying it was not appropriate to even have his gun out much less his finger on the trigger.

saying state criminal charges should not surprise anybody.

except who is going to pursue this? the Alameda DA is keeping quiet.

[otherlander]

96. Why?

Why can't electricity just be for lighting homes?
Why can't sex just be for making love?

WHY DO THEY HAVE TO BE WEAPONS?
:cry:

[Pithlet]

115. I agree. My biggest problem with tasers

is I think they change the way police deal with the public. I think it makes them tend to react more violently towards us in their dealings with us. They're trained to believe they're non-lethal and don't leave wounds like a baton beating would, so they use force more often than is warranted. I watched that video, and I actually think the taser explanation is plausible. It's inexcusable either way. I think manslaughter charges should be brought up at the very least.

[backscatter712]

103. This scumbag son-of-a-bitch should be executed.

Yeah. Date with the fucking needle for him.

He is utter fucking trash.

Hell, he isn't even a human being. Human beings have empathy and a conscience. This asshole is like Bush - no empathy, no conscience - he shot that guy in the head without batting an eye.

"People" like him need to be culled from our planet.

[CreekDog]

104. This isn't the Oakland PD's fault

I'm angry with the parking lot patrol, i mean BART police. :eyes:

[L0oniX]

112. and they wonder why people run from the cops ....pffft

[spanone]

113. i saw the video on teevee...there's no doubt he pulled out his gun, aimed and fired

you can plainly see it....they speculated that he thought he had his taser gun....i can't imagine that these weapons 'feel' the same??? and they are definitely in different holsters....

[Danger Mouse]

114. This struck me speechless. If it was a mistake, it was one hell of a mistake.

In any case, a man is dead and a daughter is without her father.
This was manslaughter at the least, I don't know about murder. If it was murder, what was the motive?