Great....my hospital's first baby of the New Year: mom is 8th grader

[rainbow4321]

And dad is *****20 years old****


No, I don't work in that department. I read about it just now on the DMN website.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/010109dnmetparkland.2a7788c6.html

And the first baby at Dallas' Parkland Memorial Hospital arrived at 12:16 a.m. Justin Daniel Ramirez was born to Dallas eighth-grader Fernanda Rios, 15, who couldn't stop smiling as she cradled her new son in her arms Thursday morning.

"I was nervous at first about what my mom would say, but I told her I would try my best and she said OK," Fernanda said.

Fernanda will take six weeks off from school and will be home-schooled while she gets to know Justin. She said her mother and cousin will help raise him, along with the boy's father, 20, who also lives with her mother.

When The News posted an early version of the story about the New Year's Day births, scores of readers reacted with dismay over Fernanda's pregnancy. Some called to say they had reported the incident to police and other agencies.

[Arkana]

1. This is what we call "statutory rape"

and Dad will be going to fucking jail.

[Lithos]

2. Agreed

n/t

[Maestro]

3. 20 year dad and 15 year old girl.

Yep that is statutory rape. I hope they get the father.

[slackmaster]

112. At least the state should force the father to pay for support

That would be a step in the correct direction.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

199. why is a 15 yo still in 8th grade??

[eyesroll]

8. Nah...it's almost never prosecuted unless the parents of the girl say so.

(That's how it tends to work here in Milwaukee, anyway--I spent last semester interning in paternity court, working with underage parents.)

Here, the father seems involved--trying to do the right thing after doing the wrong thing, I guess--and the girl's parents seem to at least be giving tacit approval to the situation (as the father lives with them). A guy in jail (or deported--statutory rape can get a non-citizen deported) can't pay child support or care for the baby, and lack of prosecutorial resources says there's better cases out there for the DA to worry about.

Not saying it's right, but that's how it works here. The agency with which I interned actually referred a couple of cases to the DA (in one case--Mom was 22, Dad was 16) and the DA's office told them flat-out, unless the parents (grandparents) raised a stink or the age difference could be described in generational terms, they wouldn't bother.

[madeline_con]

11. "... the boy's father, 20, who also lives with her mother."

Looks like it's o.k. with Mom. :eyes:

[rainbow4321]

21. You know Zale's feels like they dodged a bullet...

The article says they promised and gave diamond earrings to the mom of the very first born in the DFW area. I imagine their PR people are feeling a little relieved they didn't have their name in the same sentence/paragraph as the (alleged?) statatory rapist.

[RobinA]

105. This Helps

the situation how?

[slackmaster]

111. It would be here too, but that is rarely prosecuted

I sometimes wish it was.

[billyoc]

4. That story says the father is 27 and the mother is 26.

[uppityperson]

9. Down in the story is the 15 yr old. Look about 1/2 way down.

(clip) And the first baby at Dallas' Parkland Memorial Hospital arrived at 12:16 a.m. Justin Daniel Ramirez was born to Dallas eighth-grader Fernanda Rios, 15, who couldn't stop smiling as she cradled her new son in her arms Thursday morning.

"I was nervous at first about what my mom would say, but I told her I would try my best and she said OK," Fernanda said.

Fernanda will take six weeks off from school and will be home-schooled while she gets to know Justin. She said her mother and cousin will help raise him, along with the boy's father, 20, who also lives with her mother. ...

[billyoc]

12. Oh, sorry! Thanks.

The father has to go to prison, that's bullshit.

[uppityperson]

17. No problem, it took me aback at first also. Thought it odd, but found right part. eom

[Occulus]

22. "YOUR daddy went to PRISON for making you"

Nice, self-affirming message to send to a newborn kid.

(Don't even try to tell me this wouldn't be the playground taunt six or seven years from now if word got out to this kid's peer group. Just... no. Don't even try.)

[billyoc]

25. Too damn bad. It's a felony, like bank robbery and murder are felonies.

Should we sweep murders under the rug to avoid the murderers' children being teased?

[Bill McBlueState]

80. oh, good analogy

Because this situation is exactly like a murder.

[billyoc]

82. No, it's exactly a felony. As is bank robbing.

And murder.

[varkam]

220. Stealing something worth over $300.00 is also a felony. Are you saying that a human life is worth...

...$300.00? I mean, they're both felonies.

[billyoc]

230. No, I'm saying that if you steal something worth over $300.00 you should go to jail

with the rest of the felons.

[varkam]

243. Agreed, but I'm sure that you will conceed that the comparison to murder is a bit inept. eom

[billyoc]

248. Well, I won't concede that, judging from the sentencing trends, murder and rape

aren't that different. :shrug:

[varkam]

250. There's a world of difference between something like statutory rape and forcible rape

And even with forcible rape, the USSC disagrees with you. In both Coker and Kennedy, the USSC took up the issue of the death penalty for rape of an adult and for rape of a child under 12 years old. In both instances they found that DP for those crimes violated the Eighth Amendment of the USC.

And that was concerning forcible rape. I guarantee you that they would reach the same result with statutory rape, esp. considering that many cases of statutory rape are "Romeo and Juliet" type offenses, where you have someone just above and someone just below the age of consent. Hell, there have even been cases where two teens are both charged with sexual abuse of a minor for having sex with each other in states that have no such exceptions. IIRC, in the mid-west about a year ago there was a case of two 13-year-old kids being charged with felonies for having sex with one another. I assume that you will lobby for their immediate and lengthy incarceration? After all, it's a felony.

[billyoc]

252. I won't be lobbying anyone for felons' sentences, that's what the courts are for.

[varkam]

253. That was a bit in jest, but I thought that my point was clear.

I'll try to spell it out with this question:

Do you think that, in a situation where two teenages "consent" to have sexual intercourse with one another, that they should both be sent to prison for their actions?

[billyoc]

254. I have no opinion on childrearing in general, so no, I don't.

[varkam]

255. My question had nothing to do with childrearing.

Rather, you seem to say that if something is a felony then it means that the perpetrator of that felony should be sent to prison. So, again, I ask, if two teenagers commit a felony by having sex with one another should they both be sent to prison? I don't see how childrearing has anything to do with that situation. I'm not talking about whether or not the parents of those kids should be sent to prison, but the kids themselves.

Bonus question: Should they both be categorized as sex offenders for the rest of their lives after their release? (If you think that is absurd and will never happen, I'll tell you that it is not absurd and has happened numerous times)

[billyoc]

256. I am qualifying my statement to include only adult felons.

And I just answered your question about the two thirteen year olds.

[billyoc]

249. No, I'm saying that stealing something is grounds for a prison term. Like murder.

Because they're both felonies.

[varkam]

251. As I said above, I agree - but just because two things are felonies doesn't mean that they are...

equivalent. If you want to be even more specific, you have different classes of felonies. Stealing something worth over 300.00 is often a low class felony whereas premeditated murder is a higher class. So even on those grounds, the comparison is faulty. In addition, you cannot be sentenced to death for either stealing or for statutory rape whereas you can for capital murder. Further, there are mallum in se crimes that are categorized as felonies that, while not "evil" in and of themselves, they are punished because they law declares them to be crimes - which is quite different from rape or murder.

[BlooInBloo]

281. And GENOCIDE!!!

[uppityperson]

I don't get your point here.

You are either saying the father should not go to prison for committing a crime, that it would be awful for a child to have a criminal as a father so the crime should be ignored, or...?

Sort of like having the victim of a violent rape get pregnant, then let the perpetrator off since otherwise the child will get teased when in grade school?

Tell me this isn't what you mean, please.

[LisaL]

23. 15 is below the age of consent in TX.

Shouldn't CPS be interested in a 15 year old having a child by an allegedly older man?

[stillcool]

29. Is that for real?

People actually throw kids in jail for having sex?

[LisaL]

30. Hah?

WTF are you talking about?

[stillcool]

33. WTF? I didn't think it was...

that hard to understand..

Is that for real? People actually throw kids in jail for having sex?

[LisaL]

35. In you are asking that in response to my post why exactly?

There is nothing in my post to suggest that people throw kids in jail for having sex.

[stillcool]

38. My apology.

There are quite a few posts that favor the kid be thrown in jail, and I mis-read, jumped the gun on your post.

[LisaL]

39. Yes in fact I was inferring that authorities should be involved.

However I never said it's the child who should be thrown in jail.

[stillcool]

43. Who is the 'child'?

A fifteen year old is a child? Some fifteen year-olds have already lived a lifetime. I don't know how people can judge from nothing.

[LisaL]

45. Yes 15 year old is a child under the law. Hello?

[stillcool]

52. Unbelievable..

throw them all in jail and be done with it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. No. A 20 year old is an adult and he needs to go to jail for having sex with a minor

[stillcool]

56. Thank goodness you all didn't..

grow up with me. You'd have several of my friends in jail. What is it about sex and young kids that gets people in a tizzy? Do you assume the girl was taken advantage of? Do you assume to know the relationship? Or do people just like to throw people in jail?

[seabeyond]

58. what is it about sex and young kids.... hm.

you are really clueless?

[stillcool]

92. Perhaps I should have said..

teenagers with raging hormones? I was abused at the age of 4, and I'm very aware of rape, statutory or not. Perhaps my history provides me with a different perception of what constitutes sex crimes. The use of alcohol and drugs was also prevalent in the environment in which I grew up, so perhaps everyone I knew belonged in jail.

[Crunchy Frog]

63. Sounds like your friends belong in jail. At least if they're adults

having sex with children.

[stillcool]

86. Sure does sound that way..

I graduated from High School at 16, had been working for a year, and dating a 20 year old. We had gone to the same school, had many of the same friends, and had known each other for forever.

[AZ Criminal JD]

157. So do you support having Obama's father thrown in jail?

[LisaL]

183. Hah? His mother was 18 and married.

[AZ Criminal JD]

225. No she was not married

If you do the math you will find she was 17 nearing 18 at the time Obama was conceived. She was three months pregnant when she was married. Nice try.

[Crunchy Frog]

202. Obama's father is dead.

And I have no idea what the laws were in Hawaii in 1960 regarding the age of consent and statutory rape. I do think that the 20 year old knocking up the 15 year old should be arrested though. I wonder what would happen to any 20 year old caught having sex with Malia when she's 15. My guess is that it would not be pleasant for him.

[Name removed]

227. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crunchy Frog]

245. So you can't be a liberal if you oppose statutory rape. OK, I get it.

:eyes:

[yardwork]

64. Yeah, I'm kindig of assuming that the 15 year old was taken advantage of by the 20 year old man.

Yes, that's exactly what I think, as a matter of fact. Twenty years old isn't a "kid" anymore.

[dbmk]

71. That is the assumption, yes

And the same reason that there is an age limit on voting.

The assumption is that the adult has powers over the minor. In a mental sense. Does that always hold up? Perhaps not. But would you like to argue that on a case by case basis when the girls are 10? or 6?

[dbmk]

73. Addition:

I would like to acknowledge that the age limit can always be discussed.

Here in Denmark it is 15 - and 18 if one of the persons holds a position of power in relation to the other person. Football coach, teacher and so on.

The limit has be set somewhere.

[stillcool]

100. 10 or 6?

I know of no 6 or 10 year olds who are sexually active. It's too bad that young women have no access to birth control, or even education about their own bodies. I was 4 when I was first sexually abused, and those experiences are in no way comparable to sexually active teenagers. I don't know why so many people are so eager to throw people in jail, without knowing anything. This girl could have been taken advantage of, but no one can know that.

[dbmk]

259. And how do you establish the difference between "abuse" and "sexually active"?

Remember - if there is no age limit - that would have to be discerned/proved in every case.

[JTFrog]

93. Are you fucking saying your friends are statutory rapists and you're ok with that?

She's 15 and he's 20. Yes we assume she's been taken advantage of. The laws are they for a reason and no amount of your "all my friends do it" is ever going to make it OK.

[stillcool]

107. what I'm fucking saying...

is that I was 16 when I graduated from High School, had been working for a year, and was dating a 20 year old, who was part of my circle of friends, that I had known my entire life. "All of my friends" were older than I, and according to you my boyfriend should be in jail, and have a record because you disapprove of our age difference. I'm sure I would be in jail as well, if you had your way.

[JTFrog]

170. According to the law. Statutory rape laws are there to protect minors. PERIOD.

And YES I definitely think that older friends as a peer group will take advantage of those younger than them. Hence the reason we had to setup laws to protect minors in the first place.

You're right that I would have no problem seeing your boyfriend go to jail for having sex with a minor. Unless you were legally emancipated at 16, in which case the law wouldn't apply.

You couldn't be more wrong or more offensive to everyone on this board when you keep suggesting that "our way" would be to punish the minor involved.

[stillcool]

191. Yes..'protect' minors..

but you would have had my boyfriend go to jail, because you do not approve of my relationship with him, without knowing the slightest bit about myself or him. You would be more than happy to ruin his life, and punish me as well for something you know nothing about. PERIOD.

[JTFrog]

192. Oh I know more about statutory rape than you can possibly imagine. Thankfully your perception of

teens having sex with adults as a "wonderful beautiful thing" is never going to sway me or the law.

As I said, it sounds like in your case you were emancipated by 16. I doubt the law would apply to you.

So don't try to come in here thinking that you got the one up on everyone on this subject because you somehow believe that sex between a minor and an adult is all about "being in love".

[stillcool]

194. It is quite evident..

that you think you know more about 'statutory rape', the relationship between the two people in this article..or anything else for that matter, than I could possibly imagine. I do believe you are right in that the law 'would not apply' to me. Funny how that works too.

[JTFrog]

195. It's quite evident that you draw large conclusions from small portions of debate.

I have made no comment on the two people in the article "or anything else for that matter". I stand by my comment that I know more about statutory rape than you can imagine. I understand all too well the power of older peer groups and their danger to those they wield their power against.

I already stated, and you agreed with me, that the law would probably not apply to a situation such as yours. So you can keep that chip on your shoulder or you can try to understand that sex between minors and adults should not be glamorized.

[stillcool]

209. If you are not commenting..

on the two people in the article, what are you commenting on? All males who are 20 should be charged if they are in a relationship with a 15 year old, regardless of the individuals involved? Except maybe when someone like me is involved?

[JTFrog]

212. I was commenting on how flippantly you threw out there that your friends are statutory rapists and

that you're ok with it. As if it's ok for adults to engage in sex with minors. You even go so far as to assume that all 15 year olds are capable of knowing the difference between peer pressure and being in love.

IT IS NOT OK FOR 20 YEAR OLDS TO FUCK 15 YEAR OLDS. Frankly I'm surprised you're trying so hard to make the opposite argument.

[stillcool]

214. I assume nothing..

in regard with the individuals in this article or any other person's relationship. I like how you say it is NOT OKAY FOR 20 YEAR OLDS TO FUCK 15 YEAR OLDS...except maybe in cases like mine. Frankly I'm surprised that you see no gray area, and are trying so hard to advocate throwing people in jail.

[JTFrog]

216. You were 16 and the law is very gray on that matter. It isn't gray on 15 year olds involvment with

20 year olds. Nor should it be. Especially with a girl who is still in the eighth grade.

This conversation is beginning to sicken me deeply.

[stillcool]

219. I was 15 when we met..

and you're right, this discussion is sickening. The complete black and white attitude, and the desire to imprison people based solely on your perception of what constitutes the age of reason, and an appropriate relationship, with no consideration of the individuals involved is frightening.

[Crunchy Frog]

203. Have you been having sex with kids?

If so, then you definitely belong in jail.

[JTFrog]

217. I'm beginning to wonder that myself. Me thinks that poster doth protest too much. n/t

[marimour]

117. totally see your point.

This 15 year old was most likely NOT taken advantage of. When I was 15 I was perfectly able to fully understand what sex was and no man or boy could make me do something I didn't want to do. A 15 year old, although a minor, is not a child and she most likely knew exactly what she was doing. A girl could even lie about her age and it still could be statutory rape. Thats completely unfair IMO. We need to focus on real rape situations not punishing young guys (aka 21 and under) who sleep with teenage girls who know what they are doing.

[stillcool]

131. It's sad that the first..

reaction to this story is that sex is a crime, and this 20 year old needs to go to jail.

[uppityperson]

141. What is sad is that you fail to see the law says this is a crime.

[stillcool]

148. It's a wonderful thing..

that the law is there when an injustice is done, but to assume that there is something unjust about this relationship is just sad. I guess you would prefer there be no choice but to throw this guy in jail, and perhaps that is the reason why we have more people incarcerated than any other place on earth. All in the name of love I guess.

[uppityperson]

155. I guess you are putting words into my mouth. Should be investigated and watched.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

164. lotta calls to slam the barn doors shut, after the pants have come down.....

I absolutely see your point stillcool.

I see nothing here to indicate anything other than a relationship...a r-ship between two immature kids who exemplify biological urge and a lack of options.

Save the indignant punishments for the boys and men who lie, con and otherwise act as though they're entitled to take advantage of girls (and women).

and put your energy into supporting Planned Parenthood.

[marimour]

223. it sure is.

In high school, me and my girlfriends went to 18+ clubs with fake ID's. Any guy we met in there would assume we were 18+ and with good reason but according to some people they are to blame no matter what. Plus in this case there is a child involved. He needs to be there to take care of his child, not sitting in jail leaving that child without a father.

[uppityperson]

140. You are fine with statuatory rape. Got it. Thanks for making that clear.

Have you any clue why there are those laws? I am glad I didn't grow up with you, yes.

[stillcool]

150. No...I'm fine with..

human sexuality. Do I have a clue as to why there are those laws? I was raped at the age of 4, so yes..I do understand something about the need for laws. You should be very glad you didn't grow up with me.

[uppityperson]

156. Do you have a clue why there are stat rape laws not just for toddlers but teens?

Being raped at 4 is horrendous but there are also reasons for stat rape laws for horny teens. That is what I am asking if you have a clue about. Sexually active teenagers.

[stillcool]

160. I don't have a clue?

Because I do not automatically assume that there is something nefarious going on in a relationship between a 20 year old and a 15 year old..that means I don't have a clue? Because I don't view all those who have reached the age of 15, or all those who have reached the age of 20 the same, that means I don't have a clue?

[uppityperson]

161. No, I am asking if you have a clue, not saying you don't have one.

I asked, you replied with a story about being raped at age 4. I asked if you have a clue about stat rape and teens and now you tell me I am accusing you of not having a clue?

Can you tell the difference between a question and an accusation?

Let me try again.
Have you a clue as to why there are stat rape laws regarding sexually active teenagers?

[stillcool]

173. Have I a clue? Obviously..

you think not. I certainly understand why there are laws to prevent young women from being sexually abused because of their naivete. I understand how vulnerable teenagers are, and how easily they can be taken advantage of. Do you have a clue, as to why some at the age of 15 are in no way 'children'? Do you have a clue as to why a 20 year old might be more compatible with a 15 year old? Is it all about the sex to you? Or is it all about the numerical age?

[uppityperson]

177. It is about power and taking advantage of someone.

Again, I ask, not accuse. You are almost getting that, it seems.

Yes, I have a clue as to "why some at the age of 15 are in no way 'children'". I also have a clue as to why most 15 yr olds are not mature enough to take responsibility for their actions, and why there are laws protecting them.

"Do you have a clue as to why a 20 year old might be more compatible with a 15 year old?" More compatible than what?

"Is it all about the sex to you? Or is it all about the numerical age?" It is about power, taking advantage of someone, and responsibility.

[stillcool]

188. More compatible than someone..

their exact age, or however many years older is deemed as acceptable. I'm so happy that you perceive that 'I'm almost getting it'. I so wish I too could be high up on that perch, assuming facts not in evidence and declaring a person guilty and deserving of jail time.

[uppityperson]

237. What you are almost getting is what I write, now what you accuse me of.

"Again, I ask, not accuse. You are almost getting that, it seems."

You are almost getting the fact that I am asking questions, not accusing you of whatever you are defensive about.

You are almost getting the fact that I also said "It (stat rape law) is about power, taking advantage of someone, and responsibility", not that I am "assuming facts not in evidence and declaring a person guilty and deserving of jail time".

So, I am tired of watching you jump to conclusions and then attack me on those conclusions. Bye.

[shimmergal]

197. What it is, is

teen/young adult sex is now the scapegoat for our culture's leftover uneasiness about any non-marital sex.

To those howling "It's a felony!" -- well, those laws were made by people.(Assuming that legislators are people) They can be changed by people too, and this sort of situation is exactly the type that cries out for change.

It's funny how everyone's in agreement that abstinence-only defies human nature and biology, but this very similar situation draws cries to "Put the guy in jail." In these cases, I think the police are wiser than a lot of DU posters.

Also, before anyone makes the comparison, this case has NOTHING to do with pedophilia.

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. It is in the baby's best interest to have parents.

The world is full of compromises and suboptimal situations.

20 year olds should not have sex with 15 year olds. Babies should have parents. Which is the overriding concern?

[LisaL]

90. Oh gee. I don't know.

Using your logic, having a child sounds like "get out of jail free" card.

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. What if Dad is a pedophile?

At the very least, this needs to be investigated.

[Hippo_Tron]

240. I don't think a 20 year old sleeping with a 15 year old constitutes pedophilia

But it does make one wonder if this was a situation where a significantly older person was taking advantage of a significantly younger person. Then again, girls mature faster emotionally than guys so it's possible that he did not take advantage of her.

I do agree that it should be investigated but I don't think that statutory rape should always be black and white because of age. 15 year old girls do have sex consensual sex.

[Kali]

124. amazing how black and white the world is for some

guess it makes judgment of others easier

[BlancheSplanchnik]

166. exactly! n/t

[marimour]

258. yep.

Maybe b/c I'm younger and grew up in neighborhoods where this is the norm rather than the exception I can see their side to this situation. Plenty of teenage mothers I know don't have the support of the father, so I'm glad that he is around and didn't run off. Plus, wouldn't stat rape be a felony? So if his record is clean, then once he got out it would be a felon and sex offender and wouldn't be able to get a decent job to take care of that child. Sounds like the grandmother made a good decision to me.

[np33]

262. Just because it was the

norm does not make it right. I see this on a daily basis at my job 13, 14, 15 year olds pregnant this is something we should be trying to prevent because ask yourself this how many of these unplanned teen pregnancies produced financially stable homes? How many of these teen mothers finished high school, how many of the fathers stayed around for the duration of the child's life?

[Crunchy Frog]

62. One kid, one adult. People are talking about throwing the adult in jail.

[Hippo_Tron]

239. As someone who thinks the statutory rape laws are sometimes ridiculous...

A 20 year old and a 15 year old is really really pushing it. If it were an 18 year old high school senior and a 15 year old high school freshman then that's a different story. But if a 20 year old is chasing after 15 year old girls, then that's cause for concern. As I said above, though, I think that statutory rape should have to be proven not just arbitrarily based on age.

[WolverineDG]

120. Is she wearing a prairie dress & funny hair?

If not, nope, CPS won't give a damn about this case.

dg

[uppityperson]

142. They should investigate. They should. eom

[dysfunctional press]

134. when is her birthday? she might have been 14 at conception.

nt

[redqueen]

267. And some here would still defend it as A-OK. (nt)

[uppityperson]

147. Yes. I am with you on this one.

I agree. As I have worked hard for women's rights, also I have worked hard for young women's rights.

[High Plains]

222. It looks like this young woman exercised her rights.

And she did it without your help!

[uppityperson]

238. She exercised her "right" to...sex with an older man, without my help?

Well, I don't see that she had a "right" to sex with someone in a statutory rape situation, but agree she did it without my help. Thanks for noticing, but I am confused as to why you would think I might help her do that.

[seabeyond]

5. i dont believe she is 15. or she isnt an 8th grader. son is 13, 14 in april.

even if she started a year late would put her at 14. so what... 13 preg and boyfriend living with mom too

but but but... it is all good. cause our kids should be free to sexually explore at the youngest of ages. yada yada yada.

[eyesroll]

10. Sometimes kids get held back.

:shrug:

I had 19- and 20-year-old 11th graders when I taught high school.

[Ichingcarpenter]

20. I did too.... in fact a 20 year old was forced through

at where I taught.

[Ms. Toad]

244. The first year I taught,

I had one student older than I was. Students were allowed to finish the year if they started when they were 21. Since I started school when I was 4 and went straight through I was not yet 22 when I started teaching, and had one student who turned 22 that year before I did.

Most of them gave up before they got that old, but a few kept on going until they aged out.

[seabeyond]

24. that would mean she started a year late, AND was held back a year.

still not buying it.

she probably hasnt hit 15.... just close so they call her 15. in all sons class, not a single 15 yr old.

[Contrary1]

26. Could be that she immigrated from Mexico...

Mant times they are behind when they get here, at least that is what my son who teaches 5th grade told me.

"Texas leads the U.S. in teen birth rates..." Go figure.

I wish the family well. It won't be easy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. I have a 14 year old 7th grader this year

And my own kid turned 19 before he graduated from high school. He started kindergarten a year late. So yes, a 15 year old can indeed be in 8th grade.

But why it matters what grade this new mom is in is beyond me. :shrug:

[Kali]

125. it seemed to help sensationalize the age differeces of the new parents

[Maine-ah]

76. I turned 15 while in 8th grade

I was held back in 3rd grade. My birthday falls in April.

[gratuitous]

6. Is anyone offering $300,000 for a picture?

Well, there I go again. Also.

[Ilsa]

75. Sometimes hospitals give freebies to the babies

and parents when they are the NY baby. But since most cities and counties are strapped, I suspect Parkland (county) Hospital gave her only the usual diaper / formula package.

[gratuitous]

78. Well, I heard about another baby . . .

Was it in Alaska? Whatever. Anyway, similar situation. Young mother, unmarried, hadn't completed even her basic education. And someone was offering her $300,000 for photos of her new baby. Weird name for the kid, too. Drip? Trip? Maybe I should Google it, I'm kind of fuzzy on the details.

But wouldn't it be great if this unwed teen-age mother had someone knocking down her door to give her $300,000 for the privilege of taking a picture of her baby? Also?

[LisaL]

You only get $$$$ for a photo of your baby if the

public is eager to see what your kid looks like. Which usually happens if you are a celebrity.

[Kali]

7. lets make it sound worse by calling her an 8th grader

I was supposed to be a first semester junior in HS when I was 15 and while a 15 year old is a bit young to date a 20 year old (and certainly to be having a baby this day and age) it isn't the same situation as a normal aged 8th grader - what? 11 or 12?

[tammywammy]

14. 8th graders are 13/14

[uppityperson]

15. 13-14 is average, but it is common for some to start a yr later, esp with maturity issues.

If someone is not socially mature enough to start first grade at 5, they are sometimes held back a yr. Or perhaps she was held back a yr later.

[Kali]

19. I was 12 and 13 in 8th grade

but yeah I am a December kid and started early at 4.

[stillcool]

28. Me too...I was 16 when I graduated..

High School..and when I was 15 I dated a 19 year old. Thank goodness he wasn't tossed in jail.

[Critters2]

16. 11 or 12 would be a 5th or 6th grader. A 15 year old should be a freshman or sophomore. nt

[muntrv]

18. Normal aged 8th grader is 13-14.

[Ichingcarpenter]

13. Texas' state policies that require an abstinence-only approach to sex education in schools.

Texas leads the U.S. in teen birth rates, according to an October report from Child Trends, a nationwide research and advocacy organization. Based on 2005 data, the most recent available, Texas and New Mexico were tied with the highest birth rate among girls ages 15 to 19. Some experts have faulted Texas' state policies that require an abstinence-only approach to sex education in schools.

That's where the problem is.

[stillcool]

27. Why the compulsion to throw

people in jail? Jeez....

[emilyg]

31. Why not just wish them well.

[stillcool]

34. that's what happened back when..

I went to school.

[LisaL]

36. Oh I don't know. 15 is below the age of consent.

The alleged father is reportedly 20, the girl is 15.

[stillcool]

40. Is that really so heinous?

I dated a 19 year old when I was 15. I can't believe that anyone would want to throw him in jail. He was a nice guy. We were actually in high school together, as I graduated when I was 16.

[LisaL]

42. Werther it's heinous or not is not the question.

[stillcool]

48. Well what is it then?

If she had sex with a 17 year old would that have been okay?

[LisaL]

51. I don't think 17 year old could be arrested for statutory rape.

But the guy is reported to be 20.

[stillcool]

54. I give up. Throw him in jail.

and let it follow him for the rest of his life. It's so abnormal for teenagers to have sex, and twenty is sooooo old.

[LisaL]

57. Well it's not up to me, is it?

[emilyg]

53. We can't change her age or send the baby back - so let's hope all works out for them.

[uppityperson]

143. Issue is whether or not it is against the law. If you don't like the law, change it.

[stillcool]

152. The law is there for a reason..

and it is not to throw everyone in jail that is having a consensual relationship with a 15 year old.

[LisaL]

182. So what reason would it be? Do tell.

[stillcool]

189. Okay...I'll tell...

young women are very impressionable and can easily be taken advantage of. They can be used and abused and discarded like trash, and never know what hit them. And it is criminal.

[LisaL]

198. Oh gee. What does that have to do with the statutory rape law?

[stillcool]

207. You tell me...

Age of consent is the age at which an individual can legally consent to intercourse without qualification. There are qualified circumstances in which sexual relations with a person under the age of consent are not a crime (or constitutes a less serious crime). The most common such qualifications are that both parties to the act are minors, or that the person to be charged is legally married to the minor or close in age to the minor.

In many jurisdictions, age of consent is interpreted to mean mental or functional age.As a result, victims can be of any chronological age if their mental age makes them unable to consent to a sexual act. Other jurisdictions, such as Connecticut, eliminate the legal concept of "mental age" and treat sex with a mentally incapacitated person as a specific crime.

Laws vary in their definitions of statutory rape. It is generally intended to punish heinous cases of an adult taking sexual advantage of a minor. Thus, many jurisdictions prohibit allowing a juvenile to be tried as an adult under this law (most jurisdictions have separate provisions for child molestation or forcible rape which can be applied to juveniles and for which a minor can be tried as an adult). Some jurisdictions also specify a minimum difference in age in order for the offense to be applicable. Under such terms, if the adult is, for instance, less than three years older than the minor, no crime has been committed or the penalty is far less severe.
Rationale of statutory rape laws
Statutory rape laws are based on the concept that a young person may desire sex but may lack the experience possessed by legal adults to make a mature decision as to whether or not to have sexual contact with a particular person. Thus, the law assumes, even if he or she willingly engages in sexual intercourse with a legal adult, his or her sex partner may well have used tactics of manipulation or deceit against which the younger person has not yet developed sufficient discernment or defense.

Critics argue that a young teenager might possess enough social sense to make informed and mature decisions about sex, while some adults might never develop the ability to make mature choices about sex, as even many mentally healthy individuals remain naive and easily manipulated throughout their lives.

-The original purpose of statutory rape laws was to protect young, unwed females from males who might take their virginity, impregnate them, and not take responsibility by marrying them. In the past, the solution to such problems was often a forced marriage or "shotgun wedding" called for by the parents of the girl in question. The original rationale was to preserve the marriageability of the girl and to prevent unwanted teen pregnancy.

[LisaL]

208. Laws vary from state to state.

What does it have to do with anything?

[stillcool]

211. Nothing..let's review..

I said..The law is there for a reason...and it is not to throw everyone in jail that is having a consensual relationship with a 15 year old.

You said..So what reason would it be? Do tell.

I said...young women are very impressionable and can easily be taken advantage of. They can be used and abused and discarded like trash, and never know what hit them. And it is criminal.

You said..Oh gee. What does that have to do with the statutory rape law?

I provided you with information regarding the statutory rape law, because you apparently were of the opinion that my description was insufficient.. I have no idea how this pertains in the difference of law from state to state.

[LisaL]

215. I don't think you have an understanding of what the law actually is.

The law doesn't say that if an adult and the minor are together "in a relationship" then it's all well and good.
It also doesn't say that the relationship only becomes a crime if an adult dumps the minor.
The law deals with ages of consent, not the kind of relationship it is.

[stillcool]

218. Jeez..I just read it..

But that's okay..I'm done with it. Throw them all in jail..or better yet..fry them. It really is no wonder that we have by far the most people incarcerated than any place on earth.

[np33]

260. I started a new drinking game

everytime you state that you graduated when you were 16 I take a drink.

[Ilsa]

77. Minors are below the age of consent because

certain areas of the brain involved in decision-making are not fully developed. That is why a contract with a minor is unenforceable.

Minors are not being prosecuted for having sex. But adults should be prosecuted for having sex with minors.

how young is too young for you and your friends anyway? If this girl reached menarche at age 12, would it also be okay for an adult to seduce her?

[stillcool]

158. How young is too young?

or how old is too old? 13 year-olds can have sex..which I guess is fine with some because they are the same age. My sexual abuse started at the age of 4, and the abuser was 16..so perhaps that was okay because we were both 'minors'. Yet, when I was 15, working and paying for 'room and board' and had a consensual relationship with a 19 year old, he should have been tossed in jail. I don't know what kind of lofty position people have that they can judge the lives of others with no knowledge of circumstance whatsoever. Must be wonderful to feel so self-righteous.

[Ilsa]

233. no one is trying to feel self-righteous. Someone

should have protected you when you were four and again when you were fifteen or sixteen. I'm not judging you. But need to stop making babies they are not yet ready for. They are more likely to end up in worse poverty. Could you try to see beyond your own past to understand that others may not come out of this as well as you?

That new mom has another four and a half years of education before she gets a high school diploma.

This isn't about punishment, but someone in authority needs to make sure this 20 year doesn't leave the new mom and baby to go make babies with another girl who doesn't have the maturity or the means to take care of herself or baby. Perhaps the threat of legal involvement will help him decide that he shouldn't cut and run.

And not every girl's parents are going to welcome two new mouths to feed in the household, plus the stress of having a baby in the home. He got lucky that they didn't seek charges.

[RobinA]

110. The New Liberalism nm

*

[frogbison]

32. So. Ohio local news

3 teenagers charged with raping 7 year old

http://www.portsmouth-dailytimes.com/articles/2009/01/01/news/1news_3charged.txt

AND! Local teen charged with raping 3 children:

http://www.portsmouth-dailytimes.com/articles/2009/01/01/news/2news_teen.txt

Just terribly sad for all.

[Sultana]

41. I can't bear to read that

:(


:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[seabeyond]

61. self deleted

[Sultana]

37. WTF?

A 15 yr has no business having a baby and the baby daddy needs to be arrested.

[Quantess]

44. Question: is this acceptable in Hispanic culture?

[LisaL]

47. Well you see there are no different laws for different races or

ethnicities. So what difference does it make?

[SoCalDem]

49. depends on the family, I suppose..

Devout Catholics would not permit an abortion, so what choice did she have after the fact?

The baby will probably be raised by the girl's Mom..or Grandma..

[np33]

265. And you forgot Premartal sex

so nice try but this was not a girl forced into giving birth.

[SoCalDem]

280. Unless the angel did it, premarital sex was pretty much a done deal

for her.

nice try, you too :)

kids don't "wait"... even godly, christian children :)

[XemaSab]

55. I'm not going to give a yes or no

but I knew a guy who was the principal of a charter high school in Madera, California, and he said most of the kids at his school already were parents.

One girl got knocked up at 14, and he brought the mom in for a conference. The mom said she was happy that the girl had waited to have kids, 'cause the mom had had the girl when the mom was 12!

I would guess that among some segments of the Hispanic population (as well as among some segments of the White and Black populations) this is not uncommon.

[a la izquierda]

70. The age difference wouldn't be cause for concern

in Mexico, where guys are generally a few years older (my friend's dad was 28 and she was 17 when they married).

But let me put pre-marital sex among Mexican Catholics this way: it is hard to even find TAMPONS in Mexico in some places, because unless you're married, nothing should be going on "down there" for women. It's taboo, and a bit taboo even for married women.

[Quantess]

193. about tampons...

My friend told me that when she asked for tampons in a store in Spain, the store owner suggested that he didn't approve of her pleasuring herself with tampons.

[a la izquierda]

206. Yeah, it's bizarre.

I bring them down from the states when I go for extended periods of time (no pun...). I don't like the disapproving looks from the clerks.

Incidentally, men buying condoms get the same looks. Weird.

[SoCalDem]

46. I'm sure Justin will be happy she "tried her best"..n/t

[Sanctified]

59. I was a sophmore in High School at 15 and knew a couple of girls who got pregnant. n/t

[Joe the Liberal]

60. It would suck to have a kid at that age...........

I mean you have your whole life ahead of you and plenty of time to have a kid why do it so young?

[AyanEva]

65. I work in adult education

...and I'd say a good 40% of the students I work with are pretty much the girl in this story. A 15 year old 8th grader really isn't that unusual, depending on what population you're working with. I used to be surprised by it but after three months on the job I barely blink an eye. :( Here parents have until the age of 6 to enroll their children but it was 8 until just this year. Combine that late of a start with being held back a grade or two and you easily get to 15 and in the 8th grade. In one case, I have a gentleman who only ever got to 9th grade before turning 18 and being forced out. Never did pass 9th grade before having to leave school. An 18 year old 9th grader.

[Berry Cool]

66. It's kind of disturbing that the girl makes it sound as if she had her mother's OK to get pregnant

in the first place. Almost as if they had a conversation beforehand:

"Mom, can I have a baby by my 20-year-old boyfriend?"

"Honey, I don't know. Isn't 15 a bit young to be having a baby?"

"Aw, Mom, why not? I promise, I will try my absolute best to raise it. I mean, I will need help from you and my cousin, but I will try my absolute best. Pretty please, with sugar on top? Please, pleeeeeeease Mommy darling????"

"...*sigh* Oh, all right. Go ahead. But don't expect me or your cousin to change the diapers all the time."

When the conversation most likely took place AFTER she was already pregnant, and had to do with whether or not her mother was going to successfully talk her into either an abortion or giving up the baby for adoption (more likely, the latter). In short, not a "Can I have one" but "Can I keep it" discussion.

[marimour]

257. it probably didn't go like that.

It probably occurred after, like you said. I went to two baby showers this year of 15 yr olds and the showers were happy and sad at the same time. One girl hid the pregnancy until 6 months when it was too late for an abortion so they really HAD to make the best of it. At that point it makes no sense to keep getting down on her, you just have to try to be happy about the baby and give her support to be the best mother she can. At the shower her family had all us women go around the room and give her our advice on being a good mother. We were all in tears by the time we got done.

[malaise]

68. She won't be smiling in six months

when she realizes the baby isn't a doll but a live human being who needs food, love and care.

[rainbow4321]

72. Mom and cousin will be raising the baby

and the girl will most likely return to a routine of going to school and extracurricular activities. The baby will take the role of a little sibling to her.
I only say that because I used to work in this hospital's NICU a while back and it was not unusual at all for that to happen.

One grandma came in and we asked when "mom" would be in...we were told she had volleyball practice after school and she would try to get a ride to the hospital to see the baby after that.

Average age of the typical "grandma" in our NICU was mid 30's...the "mom"s, maybe 15 at the oldest. Doing the math you can see why grandma was not too alarmed at her 13, 14, 15 yr old having a baby. And I can tell you, it was not specific to one racial group...it could be an AA, white, or Hispanic family. The largest percentage of our general patient population is Hispanic, so that would account for when we would see a larger Hispanic population in these scenarios.

[malaise]

229. Very good point

We have a similar situation here in Jamaica.

[Marrah_G]

69. the father is 20 and lives with her........

And a 15 year old is in 8th grade......

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this girl has pretty crappy parents.

She probably never had a chance.

[Maine-ah]

79. I was 15 in 8th grade

it had nothing to do with my parents. I had learning difficulties.

[lumberjack_jeff]

83. In my experience, 15 year old 8th graders frequently have developmental disabilities.

Her grade level may be more reflective of her ability to make grownup choices than her age.

I know families must react to situations as they occur, but this is still sad.

[Withywindle]

279. Or her grade level could be reflective of a lot of other things.

Maybe her family moved a lot. Maybe they're immigrants or even refugees. Maybe she was very sick or injured as a child and missed a lot of school one year. Maybe there's a language barrier. We don't know. It's not very progressive to assume she must be immature or developmentally disabled from this one bare fact.

I've known a lot of kids from immigrant families who were a LOT more mature than their native-born peers, at least in terms of being realistic about things like work and poverty and money, even if they might have academic issues.

[Marrah_G]

85. Did you also have a 20 year old sleeping in your bed every night?

Because it is the combination of the two that points to some very bad parenting.

[Maine-ah]

89. no. He was 19.

and people here need to stop passing judgement on others that you know nothing about. All the info you have is from this one article. It's a sad situation, but it looks like they're trying to make the best of it.

[Marrah_G]

A 19 year old sharing a bedroom and a home with a 15 year old....

... Is something I will always feel is wrong. ESPECIALLY if the child has learning disabilities and need to be focused completely on getting an education.

Yes I am a parent of teenagers. No they aren't perfect. Yes one has developmental/learning disabilities.

I think your folks made some big errors in judgement.

[Maine-ah]

99. you know nothing about my family.

the 2 differences between me and this girl, is that 1. I didn't get pregnant and 2. he didn't live with us. I also come from a 2 parent household, who stayed together until my father died.

He was a very good young man, and I was never pressured into anything, ever. Someone my family had known for years.

I am a well adjusted adult, with a loving husband and daughter of my own. I don't think I need to say more on the subject.

:hi: good luck with your teenagers.

[Marrah_G]

101. Have a happy new year !

I agree, we don't need to say anymore. Some topics people will always disagree on.

Is it as mind-numbing cold up there as it down here in southern Mass today?

[Maine-ah]

102. I give up checking the temp in the winter

I look at it this way...it's either

1. cold
2. fucking cold
3. GD fucking cold


today calls for # 3. x(

[Marrah_G]

103. Agreed

You need to add in one more "wicked fucking cold"

[Ilsa]

81. I wonder how well they will all get along

when they are tired, hell, exhausted, and start arguing about minutiae. I wonder if the horny 20 year old will hang around if he is able to go offf and find another 15 year old.

[bdamomma]

74. babies having babies

sad

[Bluenorthwest]

87. Does 'one man and one child' count for

all the christianists and other morality police? Is this what we seek, as long as middle aged gays can not marry?

[Gwendolyn]

88. The dad is 5 years older than the mom.

if everyone is happy with the arrangement, and grandma gives her okay to the relationship, it's no one's business, and no one will be arrested for having sex with a minor. That only happens when the parents are displeased.

[LisaL]

91. Tell it to FLDS.

[Gwendolyn]

94. I think the diff there is that the FDLS girls are coerced and abused.

In this scenario, as in sooooo many others, the girls are having sexual relations of their own free will. If the parents give consent to a marriage or the relationship, it's accepted. That's always been the case.

[LisaL]

95. Oh gee. If the girls themselves don't say so, whatever makes you think

they were coerced and abused?

[Gwendolyn]

96. Oh come on now...

girls all over the country 14 and over, are having sex because they damn well want to. Maybe you grew up in a sheltered environment, but let me assure you, kids have sex because they like it. And that includes girls.

[LisaL]

98. So unless she belongs to FLDS, a 14 year old might like having

sex? Is that what you are trying to say?

[Gwendolyn]

106. Here's what I'm trying to say:

1. Many 14-year-olds are horny and curious. Some have the propensity to fall in such deep romantic "love" they'd rather throw themselves into a river than be without the object of their passion. These three ingredients often cause teenagers to have sex with others, without protection.

2. Once a girl has gotten herself pregnant, and even if she hasn't, all it requires is parental acceptance, and a marriage between a 15-year-old and 20-year-old may proceed. This is nothing new.

3. The difference between the above and the practices of the FLDS, is that it's illegal to marry more than one woman at a time, and we tend to frown on forced marriage and forced sex. When a girl doesn't have the right of choice to whom she'll give her maidenhood, we consider that wrong. We also don't approve of incest, another problem with that org. Nor do we look kindly on keeping young women imprisoned against their will, which apparently is sometimes the case on those compounds.

[LisaL]

115. You know, if the state of TX cares so much about under aged

pregnancies as they appeared to have done with FLDS, then they should do so in the rest of the state as well, not just on FLDS compounds. Do you know that in case of FLDS, CPS declared that it was abuse or neglect on the part of the parents not only if their under aged girl got pregnant, but if other parents allowed their children to even came in contact with such a thing? So what good for the goose should be good for the gander. I fail to see how you can say that if parents are o'key with it, then it's all well and good.
Should the law not apply to everyone the same?

[Gwendolyn]

126. "'pervasive pattern' of sexual abuse through forced marriages between underage girls and older men."

That was the judge's take on it. This "pervasive pattern," plus the additional revolting customs I listed, are a far cry from some random 20-year-old dude and his 15-year-old girlfriend getting knocked up and then living together with the grandma in an attempt to be a family. Hopefully they'll still be together when she's 20 and he's 25.

[LisaL]

135. Oh gee. I guess you missed this from the article.

"Texas leads the U.S. in teen birth rates, according to an October report from Child Trends, a nationwide research and advocacy organization."

Earth to you- most of these pregnant teenage TX girls don't live on FLDS compound.

[Gwendolyn]

149. What the hell are you talking about?

You're saying every 15 year old girl who has sex is being abused or has been forced? And what, that Texas leads the race in rape of minors? Absolutely ridiculous.

I didn't bring up FLDS nor do I see what they have to do with anything. They make their own laws and for some reason people accept it.

Earth to you - In the real world teenagers get pregnant because they like having sex and didn't use contraception. Simple as that really.

Sometimes 20 year olds who are immature have sex with, and fall in love with girls five years younger than they are. Are they criminals. No, not all of them are. Some are just stupid, or horny, or in love. JESUS! Now every stupid male is an evil, criminal, pedophile rapist. :eyes: What kills me is the stupid kid is actually living with and helping to take care of his family, and you're STILL shitting all over him. Go read the post of the person on this thread who lived this exact situation, oh judgementia!

[LisaL]

174. Actually, I was responding to your post in which you seemed to

have claimed that a 15 year old with a baby is an isolated incident. Which hardly seems so, as TX is leading the nation in under aged pregnancies.

[WolverineDG]

127. Prove that statement with something one of them have said

NONE of the alleged underaged FLDS mothers asked for help to leave the YFZ. NONE of them made a complaint to law enforcement, other than to state they were abused by CPS.

dg

[Gwendolyn]

130. The similarities between the two examples are staggering.

Gotcha! It's so obvious!

[WolverineDG]

133. Staggering in what way?

This young woman isn't claiming to be abused. None of the FLDS teens say they were abused. The only difference is religious bigotry.

dg

[Gwendolyn]

138. And what exactly ended up happening to the FLDS teens? Or anyone else on that compound?

I think the concern of the court was "pervasive pattern" of abuse and rightfully so. It was investigated, as I'm sure questions were raised regarding this girl's relationship as well. You're assuming there weren't, and that no one got involved to ensure the best outcome for all parties.

As it stands there are men who go to prison EVERY SINGLE DAY for statutory rape. Why shouldn;'t anyone question the FLDS people as well? You've got it backwards and that's why your analogy is silly to me. Do FLDS men go to prison every day for statutory rape? NO! They barely EVER have to stand scrutiny for any of their practices.

[LisaL]

139. You mean you haven't heard? CPS took all of them away from

their parents to investigate.
Later they had to give them back, but that's another story. So, tell me. Should CPS come for this 15 year old as well?

[Gwendolyn]

154. Exactly, they had to give them back.

"Ordinary" non FLDS affiliated people get investigated every day. Children are taken away, and young men go to prison because they fell in love with an underage girl. Their lives are then f"cked forever since their names go on the national sex offender registry. What makes you think they won't hassle this girl or the boyfriend? Try to take the child away? The FLDS should pray thanks to God they don't get bothered a quarter as much as anyone else.

Far as it stands, the law in Texas requires parental consent for anyone between the ages of 14-17 who wants to marry. It isn't illegal though for a 14-year-old to marry. If the mother gives her consent and the parents are willing to give a home to their kid, what business is it of anyone's to mix in?

[LisaL]

171. As it stands now, the age of marriage with parental consent in TX

is 16.
Under the age of 16, a court order would be needed for marriage.
This girl is reported to be 15, so she is too young to marry even with parental consent, without a court order.
As for FLDS not being bothered as much as anyone else, is that a joke? The age of consent in TX was raised after FLDS moved there.
Hello?

[Gwendolyn]

184. No it isn't a joke.

Considering the polygamy, fraud and countless other insane practices they endorse, they seem to be doing just fine. How do statutory rape conviction stats compare between FLDS members and the rest of society? ;)

I find it rather odd that someone would be arguing so hard for the imprisonment of a young man who obviously loves his family and is sticking around to take care of them. You obviously don't give a crap about the family unit. Is it residual anger over the FLDS raid that makes you want every secular male to be punished, even when doing so would serve nothing and nobody, and would in fact harm the child and mother in terrible ways, and I don't mean financial?

[LisaL]

186. Well their leader Mr. Jeffs has been convicted of

being an accomplice to rape for his role in the arranged marriage of under-aged girl. By the way the alleged rapist himself has not been put on trial (at least as of yet). Can you name another case like that? And there are others from FLDS that have been charged with statutory rape.

[Gwendolyn]

190. Honestly this starting to be comical.

You're using Warren Jeffs as your example of a martyr while you condemn a couple of kids?

Let's see, Warren Jeffs, who basically farms girls like livestock, engages in and endorses polygamy and forced marriage, compared to some poor kid who got one girl pregnant and is sticking around to raise the child?

Care to expand on the list? Polygamy and underage marriage has been going on for ages. Where are all the convictions? What are the stats?

It's pretty clear what perceptions color your virulent opposition to allowing these kids to live in peace as a family.

[LisaL]

196. I have no clue as why you would think I am using Mr. Jeffs

as a "martyr." I am simply pointing out to you a case of prosecution after you implied FLDS members are been treated better than general public. I sincerely doubt your claims have any merit. In fact to me it seems that authorities are more concerned with under-aged sex if it takes place among FLDS than in a general public. In fact the age of consent was raised in TX after FLDS moved there.

[Gwendolyn]

200. Well I'm not overly interested in doing the research, especially since I didn't bring them up.

However, I'm gonna go ahead and make my own assumptions. These seem to be facts.

- Underage marriage is a huge minority event in the secular world.

- Underage marriage is the norm in the FLDS world.

Therefore I'm going to make the assumption, since FLDS is alive and well, and the menfolk they haven't run out of the cult are flourishing, that very few of its members are prosecuted for any of the crimes they commit, including statutory rape, and of course polygamy. Jeffs flouted the law many times over for years and helped others to do same. Men out in the secular world are prosecuted for statutory rape all the time. You don't have to believe my claims. Google is your friend.

This is a very nice side-track, but meaningless. The point is, it's absolutely stupid to separate a father from his family, especially his child, for a supposed crime, that obviously isn't.

[LisaL]

201. Don't want to talk about FLDS, fine.

But the girl is reported to be 15. That is below the age of consent and below the age of marriage with parental consent. For someone under the age of 16 to be married a court order is needed. The father is reported to be 20. Which is an adult. And yet here you are claiming this obviously isn't a crime.
How so?

[Gwendolyn]

205. I'm of the opinion as many others on this thread, that this is a grey area.

rather than black and white.

The statutory rape law is a good thing in that it protects children who might be manipulated or abused by those who are older and in a position to do so. But it also doesn't take into account many factors and its reach has ruined the lives of innocents, both the male and the girl involved. This is unfair and heart wrenching imho.

This girl is 15 but she may very well be as emotionally/mentally mature as the 19-20 year old she fell in love with. It's quite obvious that this is a love match, or the dude would be long gone. Perhaps the mother is extremely fond of the boy and approves of the match whole heartedly. Maybe they were engaged to be married anyway, but had an oopsie moment that resulted in a pregnancy. Is there some intelligence in having CPS swoop in, imprison the boy for 7 years so his kid grows up without a father and the girl without her beloved, and take a salary away from the family? Then put his name on a registry so he'll have a tough time getting work again and be harassed wherever he lives, as a sex offender? Utterly stupid to me.

Especially when girls are date-raped, molested by family members/family friends, and enmeshed into polygamy cults from which they can never escape... and no one can seem to do much about these sorry stats. This would be the REAL place to look for crime imo.

Court order is required, you're right, but if there is a good reason and parents consent, the courts will agree to it.

[Mari333]

97. yes, she wont think its so cool in a few months

my 30 yr old son called me yesterday and he has a 15 month old who was in the background rampaging deliciously thru the house. My son sounded like he was going to collapse. hahahaha. I laughed and laughed. Its the hardest work there is, and here is my strong 6 plus foot son who is national guard strong, on the verge of tears because he spent the whole day with the baby. hahahaha, its work like no other work. Bet a dollar that this little kids mom will end up doing all the baby work. and yes , I think the 20 yr old MAN in the story needs to go to jail, but if he doesnt, then make him pay every cent of his paycheck to provide for the baby..the 15 yr old kid in the story will be old before her time.

[AngryAmish]

104. I blame the parents for not having bought an Apple.

[Chisox08]

108. Now why isn't that child molesting father in jail again?

I hope he at least steps up and takes a raise that child

[OwnedByFerrets]

109. Did she name it Tripp?

[pinstikfartherin]

114. Wow, so my dad should have gone to jail?

That's fucking shitty.

My dad was 19 and my mom was 15 when she got pregnant with me. Had me when she was 16. They made mistakes, but my dad did not deserve to go to jail. He and my mom took great care of me since the day I was born. From what I've been told he went straight into "dad mode" when I was born and never looked back. He's always worked his ass off to take care of myself and my sister. He helped my mom go to nursing school before they divorced. He got custody of my sister and I; he's struggled but we have always had everything we needed. My mom has worked her ass off too. Finished high school, worked for 6 years at different jobs before going to nursing school. Now she is a regional director for a hospice.

Yes, they should have been more responsible, but I wouldn't be here now. But my dad is a great hard working man and did not deserve to go to fucking jail. Some men take advantage of younger girls, but don't you damn well lump my dad in with them. You need to know about the situation before you judge.

[LisaL]

116. Depends on the law at the time.

What your father did might have been perfectly legal, depending on when and where it was.

[renate]

137. I hope this baby's parents are as responsible as yours

They sound like wonderful people. I'm happy for you and impressed by them.

[Kali]

118. relationship between a 15 and 20 year old falls into a grey area for me.

Probably not going to work but I wouldn't call the guy a pedophile without a lot more info. Lots of judgment here based on very little info. Hopefully there will be some looking into the situation by competent social service types just to make sure.

I hope the father takes proper responsibility for his child, regardless of his relationship to the mother.

[WI_DEM]

144. yeah it's hard to find other young adults, 18 or above, to go to bed with when you're 20...

so may as well go after an available, and maybe even willing, 15 year old.

[Kali]

151. guess you missed the point -

lack of info. I can see the easy answer that many here have chosen to be the explanation, but I can just about as easily see several other possibilities.

Life can be much more interesting if we look in the grey areas. On the other hand it can be easier if we stick to the obvious (or the black and white).

[lightningandsnow]

185. Yeah. I've been in a similar(ish) situation

I dated a 21-year-old when I was 16, almost 17. I'm fairly mature for my age, and while there were some differences between us which ended the relationship, it wasn't exploitive.

I hate it when people yell "OMG PEDOPHILE" without knowing anything about the people involved.

That being said, the fact that she's in grade 8 could indicate that she is fairly immature for her age, and plus, I had safer sex and didn't get pregnant. So I guess there are different circumstances, but I hate it when people make blanket judgements.

[WolverineDG]

119. Someone call CPS

there's an entire town that needs to have its children removed. A teenager had a baby!

dg

[LisaL]

121. From the article, sounds like authorities have already been notified.

By the readers.
I don't know if that includes CPS or not, but the article says police has been informed.

[uppityperson]

146. Being in the news, seems CPS would be notified. If police were, CPS was

also most likely. I am with you on this one.

[uppityperson]

145. Only if the town acted in collusion. And hopefully CPS has now been notified

what with it being in the news and all. And, having worked in healthcare, I think providers are required by law to report things like this to CPS.

As for the "entire town", only if they acted together.

[MilesColtrane]

122. As a twenty year old I was smart enough not to mess with anyone under 17.

Every male I knew at that age knew what the word "jailbait" meant.

Prosecute him.

[Crunchy Frog]

246. According to the conventional wisdom on this thread...

that means that were some sort of repressed, anti-sexual freak. No 20 year old could or should be expected to keep his hands off of underage girls. :shrug:

[Celeborn Skywalker]

123. OMG!!

This is just shocking!! A 15 year old girl having a baby? ARE YOU SERIOUS??!!

:sarcasm:

[conspirator]

128. Fact: 15 year old girls do have a sex life, and they usually prefer older boys (in their 20's yes)

I see no crime. Western society is to obsessed in censoring sex.
They should have used a condom, that's all.

[LisaL]

136. Well you might see no crime, but it might be against the law,

depending on the ages of those involved. 15 is below the age of consent under current TX law. Hello?

[Hippo_Tron]

241. There also used to be laws saying that black people had to go to the back of the bus

Would your response have been "well it's the law" when they broke it?

[Hippo_Tron]

242. I think it should depend on the situation

The idea of statutory rape exists because of the possibility that an older person could seduce a minor into consenting sex and then even though it would not technically be rape it still is taking sexual advantage of someone.

15 year olds sometimes do have sex and sometimes the guy in his 20's did absolutely nothing to take advantage of them. But sometimes that is not the case.

[pipi_k]

129. As the teenaged mom of a son born

nearly 39 years ago, three months after I graduated from High School, I find this type of thing extremely sad.

Babies having babies.

Oh, they think they're all grown up. I did too. But I was just a child myself.


I'm just glad that my son and his sister (born two years after him) waited until they were over 30 to have children. At least there's a good chance that they'll be better parents to their kids than I was to them, because I was too young to know...

:(

[Kali]

132. sounds like you did alright if they turned out capable of learning from your mistake

Life happens, you have to do what you can.

[AZ Criminal JD]

153. Wasn't PE Obama born of a unwed teenage mother?

How many of you are shaking your heads in disapproval about that?

[LisaL]

165. From what I understand, his mother was married

when Obama was born.

[Brewman_Jax]

178. Not the whole story

but she was a 19-year-old college student and married.

[AZ Criminal JD]

224. Try again

She was 18 when Obama was born and she was three months pregnant when she married Obama's father. Nice try.

[LisaL]

231. Gee so you admit Obama wasn't born to unwed mother?

Geez.

[Brewman_Jax]

234. You fail

she was an adult. Comparing a high-schooler to Obama's mother is false and inaccurate.

[redqueen]

272. It's kind of shocking the lengths some on this thread are going to

in order to defend the 'right' of girls of 15 (if not 14) to be sexually active.

:crazy:

[NeedleCast]

159. Why does the boy's father still live anywhere outside a jail?

How is this not statutory rape?

[slackmaster]

162. It was surely statutory rape, but what would be the point of prosecuting him at this stage?

Wouldn't it be best if the guy holds a job and pays for the support of his child?

[LisaL]

163. And what is the point of having a law if it's not enforced?

[NeedleCast]

172. There are lots of laws that go unenforced

Have you ever walked across a street at a place other than the intersection? You've commited a crime. Were you fined for it?

I'm generally in agreement with you here Lizzy, but at the same time, if this is not a case of sexual assault or predatory behavior by the 20 year old it's probably best for the baby to have a father who can provide vice a father who is in jail.

[slackmaster]

176. I think the issue comes down to weighing the benefits and drawbacks of enforcement

If the father actually takes care of his child, isn't that better for everyone than having the taxpayers foot the bill for child care AND for keeping him in jail? As a taxpayer I would not like that outcome.

Real life is much more complicated than the law allows for. Teenage girls' parents are often complicit in that kind of relationship, or at least have no effective means of controlling their daughters.

What would you do if your 15-year-old was dating a 20-year-old? She says she is in love with him. If you try to interfere, you risk having her run away or alienating your relationship with her forever. Kids become more independent and harder to exert any real control over as they mature. That is natural and necessary for them to become independent adults.

The problem with the laws on sexual consent, statutory rape, etc. is that they do not allow for the natural variation in the rate at which teenagers mature.

20 years down the road this young woman may regret that she had a child at such an early age. But that is her problem, not yours or mine.

[uppityperson]

179. So should CPS be watching this family? Not send the father to jail, but make sure they have the

support they need to be able to raise this child in a decent manner? Having worked as a public health nurse visiting young mothers, should they be part of a system that helps them?

[slackmaster]

180. CPS should intervene only if the family needs help

i.e. they ask for it, or someone reports abuse or neglect.

There isn't much information in the article about the specific situation. The young mom may have a supportive family.

[Kali]

204. are you serious?

Lots of stupid laws out there, and lots of situational cases where ok laws may not apply. It kind of sounds like this is one, though we aren't privy to enough real info, in my opinion.

Mandatory sentences are another area that applies to this discussion. Would you agree that every conviction deserves the exact same sentence? Someone looting a tv during a riot vs somebody broke and homeless stealing food - think they are the same thing?

Is it the same - a guy raping a young woman against her will and one succumbing to a pushy, horny girl? What if he is willing to stay, marry and care for any kids? Or what if they are actually in love?

By the way I know plenty of 15 year olds that are way more mature than plenty of 20 year olds. The law in this case should be a guideline, not a mandatory conviction based on chronological ages of the people involved.

[Gwendolyn]

228. How wise you are!!!

Good points, every single one.


:hi:

[NeedleCast]

169. Yes, you're probably right

Still, it seems like a get out of jail for free card. Like saying "well, since you mugged that guy to feed yourself, it's okay."

I guess from my perspective, I have to wonder what a 20 year old dude is doing with a (presumably 14 when she got pregnant) girl in the first place. He should know better. I mean really, when you look at in the light of this being a person who is 20 years old having sex with a middle-schooler, its pretty high up there on the things that skeeve me out list. Sounds like dude is going to stick around and help support the child, which is a good thing, but I have to wonder how they came into contact initially.

[hunter]

167. If the dad goes to jail, her next kid will have a different dad.

And so on, and so on, and so on...

Grandma probably knows best.

In a lot of families like this dad is actually a stabilizing influence, especially if grandma is a strong figure in the household who can hold everything together.

Not in any way ideal, but you work with what you got.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

168. watch for the new family to make the morning talk show rounds...

:eyes:

[LisaL]

175. As they are apparently being reported to the authorities by the

members of the concerned public, they might live to regret all the publicity.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

181. which I disagree with--too UNnuanced.

but I've already stated my opinion above.

[Politicalboi]

187. I don't find this to be rape

The baby is here now and needs people to raise him. He's 20 at least he can get a job and support the kid. How can he do that in jail? Now I am not for 20 year olds getting 15 year olds pregnant. I think they should have to go to a class on being a parents. It should be mandatory instead of jail in cases like this. But this should only apply to relationships. Each case would be different. And birth control should be talked about.

[McCamy Taylor]

210. It is rape in Texas unless they are married.

[LisaL]

213. In TX one can marry at 16 with parental consent.

Court order would be needed for someone under 16.

[Faygo Kid]

221. Lovely. Happy New Year.

Count me in on the "dismay" part, and best wishes to all to have this turn out better than it started.

[zorahopkins]

226. Her Body, Her Choice

This young uuoman has every right to use her body any uuay she sees fit.

It's her body, so it's HER choice.

Note: In protest of the continuing occupation of OUR Uuhite House by the illegal and totally corrupt Bush/Cheney regime of thugs and cronies, I REFUSE to use the letter betuueen "V" and "X". Instead, I use a "double u", as in "Uuhite House".

[LisaL]

232. What an absurd thing to say.

She is not an adult.
She can't drink legally. She can't vote.
There are a lot of things legally she can't do that an adult can.

[Faygo Kid]

235. Agreed.

Statutory rape is never a good thing.

[Crunchy Frog]

247. How the hell did you manage to get nearly 700 posts?

[Brewman_Jax]

236. These do not always turn out well

My grandmother was 16 when married my 22-year-old grandfather in the 1930's. He had to make an "honest woman" of her. From what I've heard, her parents weren't happy with her choice. She would have 2 children who would become my mother and my uncle. She died at age 24 from kidney failure due to chemical exposure; she worked in a paint factory. He was an alcoholic and abandoned them and they were raised by their grandparents, my great-grandparents. As far as I know, my mother and uncle never had much contact if any with their father. I never met him.

[np33]

261. Okay people listen up

This country has the highest rate of teenage mothers among developed nations. Unplanned pregnancies in many cases lead to a higher drop-out rate, higher rate of poverty, health risks etc. So before we offer our well-wishes and deride those who I want the 20 year old prosecuted let's take into account all the negative affects of teen pregnancy. Bottom line most teenagers can barely take care of themselves (on their own) let alone a new born. This country is in better need of sex education and of course there will always be unplanned teen pregnancies but it absolutely unacceptable that this has become such a common place in American society. I think it is very irresponsible for some people on this thread to use political talking points that children are curious about their sexuality (though this sounds just like a NAMBLA pamphalet) and that we shouldn't criminalize sexual behavior as a justification why a 15 year old becoming pregnant by a 20 year old who most likley is not in school himself and probably isn't able to support mother/child.

[Gwendolyn]

264. Using your logic, we should be putting the girls having babies in prison. Problem solved.

P.S. Your comment about NAMBLA is hilarious.

[np33]

266. So the teen pregnancy epidemic

in this country isn't a problem to you? Unplanned teen pregnancy is not a positive thing in a society. While your defending 20 years olds having unprotected sex with 15 years old; I would to like turn your attention the reprecussions of these unplanned pregnancies. Most likely this girl will not finish high school, the father is probably unlikely to provide for his family, so now this baby will most likely grow up in poverty and a broken home. But that's right who cares about that because how dare people criminalize child sexuality. This country is seriously warped about sexuality and about the family structure.

[Gwendolyn]

269. Two different issues.

Statutory rape laws were instituted to keep children from being abused or exploited. Not to stem the teenage pregnancy explosion. The majority of these pregnancies are the result of same age sex anyway.

Since you're basically advocating prison terms as a remedy for teen pregnancy, why not just go to the source and imprison the girls as well. That should solve the problem for good.

I find that a warped view but to each his own.

[np33]

270. What are you talking about

I am no way suggesting that prison terms would prevent teen pregnancies rather I am just commenting the big problem of this scenario which is unplanned teen pregnancies.

I think it's distrubing that you are more concern with preserving the right of children and adults to have sex with each other; then the issues of the child that's being brought into ill-prepared home.

[Gwendolyn]

273. You most certainly are advocating prison sentences to alleviate the teen pregnancy problem.

Go back and read your own posts.

This thread is about a 15-year-old who had a child by someone four years older than she. It's about the morality of it. You're the one who's interjected the whole teen pregnancy problem into the discussion. That's a separate problem, and you're making big ass assumptions about my child welfare concerns based on what I think about statutory rape prison sentences for people who are in a loving relationship.

It's fairly obvious that the father is committed to his child and there's a supportive grandmother. Your issue if I'm reading correctly, has more to do with poor people having children, or your disapproval of cultures that condone teen pregnancies, like this girl's. Again, what does that have to do with statutory rape laws?

[babythunder]

274. Are you really that

dense that you do not see the correlation between the epidemic of unplanned pregnancies and this 15 year old having a child? What the hell are you talking about because in reality these type of discussions are non-starters. Why because where do you draw the line: a 13 year old, 12, year old, 10 year old? At what age do we say it's too young for a child to be having sex? Is it okay for 13 year old to have sex with a 26 year old, or a 12 year old with a 25 year old? It will be very difficult to clearly draw the lines.

I don't give a shit about what other cultures do but a country with access to innumerable educational resources it is an absolute failure the number of unplanned teen pregnancies that take place in this country every year.

[Gwendolyn]

276. This is hopeless.

Statutory rape laws have NOTHING to do with pregnancy. They have to do with sex.

Unleashing all of your anger against the few dudes who have sex with underage girls will accomplish...NOTHING!
Imprisoning 20-year-olds doesn't stop 14-year-old boys from having sex with 14-year-old girls, and having babies.

Statutory rape laws don't have a damn thing to do with 16-year-olds getting knocked up by their same-age boyfriends. Get it? You're attacking the opinions of people on this thread who are discussing STATUTORY RAPE LAWS not UNWANTED PREGNANCY.

Denseness is a matter of opinion it seems, cause that's the vibe I'm getting.

[np33]

277. Wait let me get this staight

15=20 now? What the hell are you ranting against here statutory rape laws? Look you need to follow this a little more clearly but I will explain it to a better so you can better understand. A 15 year old was impregnanted by a 20 year old. Now that these facts have been established some people are debating the legality of this 20 year old going to jail okay. My point is the issue about statutory rape important however I believe the bigger issue that should be getting discussed the millions of other girls who have unplanned pregnancies and the negative effects on society and more importantly the children born into these homes. Now for whatever reason you do not believe that this 15 year old mother has any relevance to that issue. The biggest problem with your statements is that you are very ignorant of these situation as exemplified by your posts. Here some information for you:


"Sexual relationships between young teens and older individuals are associated with risky sexual behaviors that could lead to unintended pregnancy and childbearing, as well as to sexually transmitted infections. Among sexually experienced teens, having sex with someone who is older has been associated with reduced and inconsistent use of contraception,1,2,3 including reduced use of condoms,4 and a greater risk of a teen pregnancy.5 In fact, more than one in four children born to mothers between the ages of 15 and 17 were fathered by someone five or more years older.6 Additionally, engaging in sexual intercourse at an early age is associated with a number of negative consequences, including having a greater number of sexual partners, reduced contraceptive use, and a greater likelihood of having a teenage birth.7"

Like I said do yourself a favor and do some research so you can actually know what the hell you are talking about.

[np33]

278. I'm curious

where exactly you draw the line for example the other day I dealt with a girl who 14 years old and pregnant by a 26 year old. Where is your line also if you had a son or daughter would you condone them having unprotected sex with a 20 year old?

[Gwendolyn]

283. I like the Canadian model, personally.

It's basically 2 years grace for 12-14-year-olds, and 5 for 15-year-olds. That way, the entire teen years (and the inherent stupidity expected of teens) are covered. Their laws also stipulate that if the older person is in a position to coerce or utilize authority then all bets are off.

No I certainly wouldn't condone any child having intimate relations with a 26-year-old. But again, under the Canadian model, the 26-year-old would be punished. I absolutely wouldn't condone my child having unprotected sex with anyone, least of all someone much older. But that would be something for me to sort out with my family... to ensure that they are armed with the proper education along with good values and solid self esteem.

I'll answer your other post tomorrow, but will end this one off with my amazement that people think prison sentences are the be all and end all answers to so many social ills, when really all that mentality achieves is fill up our jails without solving anything.

[RidinMyDonkey]

263. I was with a 21 year old man when I was 16...

We've been long broken up and we didn't have any children (Thankfully my school had SexEd) but to this day I still feel like I was more mature in many ways, including sexually, than he was. My parents also felt that I was mature enough to have a relationship with this man. Nothing horrible happened. I never felt as if I had been taken advantage of, in fact, it was easy to forget that he was older than me at all.

Of course, not everyone is the same, but you shouldn't judge if you don't know the circumstances. For all we know this girl has more sexual experience than all of us on the forum combined, and the father could have been a sweaty nerd who never got laid a day in his life before.

That said, at least the guy stuck around to help with the baby. When I was in school and girls got pregnant most of their boyfriends broke up with them and left them with no help or support. Some of them would say heinous things about the girls being whores and what have you. At least he's there and he seems to love her enough to give a helping hand, which is more than you can say for too damn many fathers.

[redqueen]

268. Out of curiosity... how old are you now? (nt)

[np33]

271. That's a big leap of faith

if you believe that this guy is going to stick around for the duration of the raising of this child.

[w8liftinglady]

275. As someone who is deeply involved in the hispanic community,This isn't that uncommon

Many Mexican relationships are formulated when the parents are very young>I get the impression that the baby's mother hasn't been in America very long,as she had to speak through a translator,and the customs in Mexico are different-the age of consent is between 12 and 14,according to what resources I could find.

[LisaL]

282. Whatever the laws are in Mexico, when you are in US, you have

to follow US laws.

[rainbow4321]

284. I wanna say that I read she moved here 5 years ago..

It wasn't in this article but another one somewhere online. They said that she and her family moved here 5 years ago.
Given the situation and the media attention, I imagine the hospital's brass was all over that room while the media was there....hospital's own translators, administrators, etc.. Wouldn't want to be the nurse having to do all the documentation on mom/baby/dad.

[w8liftinglady]

285. It's been my experience

that someone who had been in the US school system since they were 10 wouldn't need a translator.I have 2 friends who are elementary ESL teachers,and they say that kids learn languages pretty quickly.

[LisaL]

286. Where did you get the info that she speaks through the translator?

Link.