Democratic Underground Surpasses DailyKos For Entire Week

[davefromqueens]

Who speaks for the netroots? Who speaks for Democrats? Who speaks for progressives? The answer is no one person. However, the perception of who has power can translate to mega dollars, appearances in the mainstream media, etc..

I have argued, and will continue to argue, that DailyKos' Markos Moulitsas, a few of his front pagers (Dhinmi, Misslaura, BarbinMd, ScoutFinch, etc..) and his cyberbullying Kostapo are as bad for Democrats as Ann Coulter is for Republicans. (I don't mind republicans destroying themselves.) I will further argue that we should do the Democratic Party a huge favor and disown this hateful man (he of supporting death threats against liberal blogger Kathy Sierra and of screw them infamy) now while he has minimal power so that he can go no further and cause no more harm. His recent bashing of Caroline Kennedy, his recent shameful reference to Democrats as "battered spouses" and numerous other instances of bizarre behavior should be an alarm bell for us real and solid Democrats. (If anyone wants my street creds, voting history, etc... I'll provide it..)

I argue that most progressives and most Democrats dislike Kos because they realize his true nature but often are afraid to say so out of fear. Well extensive googling throughout the web will reaffirm my point but the bigger point can be shown at what is happening at Daily Kos. The site is plummeting and nosediving like the economy under Bush. While sites like DU have stablized the past 6 weeks, Kos keeps going down and down and down.

And now he is below Democratic Underground on a regular basis, something that never happened before until recently.

A check of Alexa rankings shows DU beating Kos for the entire week by nearly 1500 ranking spots.

Now there are plenty of other liberal sites way ahead of Kos, like Huffington Post. But who speaks for the progressive netroots? Well as of now Democratic Underground would rank well ahead of DailyKos in that regard. And I suspect that DK's rankings will continue to plummet, just like MYDD's did for the same reason and that the list of sites will simply keep expanding and expanding.

Why is DU moving up? What are you doing right? Feel free to share.

[cali]

1. what crap. don't think you can get away with this.

Some of us know you perfectly well from your nutsoid posts over at kos and that you're on an insane vegeance trip when it comes to markos.

"Kostapo". You are completely bonkers.

[davefromqueens]

2. and most people

find me quite sane and realize quite well the true nature of the site.

Interesting how you have to call names to defend your guy and I don't.

Who made you a gatekeeper?

[davefromqueens]

10. From the DU Rules

3. Civility: Treat other members with respect. Do not post personal attacks against other members of this discussion forum.


Feel free to disagree but calling me nutsoid, insane, and bonkers is against the rules of this site. I accept your apology in advance.

[cali]

13. fine. I apologize for calling you names. let me restate things:

your well known little vengeance trip toward markos is well known. It's more than a little bizarre.

I don't appreciate YOU coming here and trying to involve DUers in your one sided war of kos.

And the language you use toward kos and kossacks is completely out of bounds.

Just leave your obsession with destroying kos off DU. Or go away.

[davefromqueens]

16. given that only 2 diaries

in 3 months or ever have been about the subject, how are YOU to unilaterally decide what is and what is not appropriate.

I read the rules.

Now you are entitled to disagree with my language about Kos but to say I'm out of bounds is whose call? And it's a legit topic for discussion although I agree it shouldn't be a daily occurrence.

I'm in NYC. Do you know why we've had Republican mayors for 15 years? There is something called a turnoff troll.

Kos is destroying himself with the help of those I mentioned. I'll just keep exposing it.

And why not give exposure to other sites that have surpassed this. Kos was supposedly the Walmart of progressive blogs and now all the Targets are passing him with many more on the way.

Who speaks for the Democratic Party or who is PERCEIVED as speaking for the Democratic Party will go a long way in 2010 and beyond to determining our future. (I say our assuming that you are a Democrat like me who has been registered as one for over 15 years and has never voted Republican for President, Senator, Governor, or Mayor)

[cali]

18. you have a personal and weird vendetta going on

and you're less than honest about it. You're shit stirring. I have every right to inform people. Sorry you don't like being called on it, but that's life.

[davefromqueens]

22. you are entitled to your opinion

The rankings are what the rankings are.

If Walmart had been number 1 for 5 years, then dropped to number 2, and then all of sudden dropped a lot more than that, would that be a story?

My mental health is not the issue, deal with facts and reality.

[davefromqueens]

37. Fun little question

100 randomly chosen Republicans are in a room.

You speak for 10 minutes, Ann Coulter speaks for 10 minutes.

20 of those people walk out and become Democrats. Why?

[Naturyl]

82. I love DU, but quite frankly...

DU speaking for Democrats in the public eye is not going to be any more beneficial than Kos.

We are a decidedly leftist website in a decidedly centrist nation.

[davefromqueens]

84. Disagree

Because the format here is bottom up. Kos is top down.

Very big difference.

[Left coast liberal]

92. Why do you care so much? Get a life. Nt

[davefromqueens]

97. YOur comment

is a reflection on you, not me.

[LanternWaste]

49. Is legal to imply that someone is merely acting

Is legal to imply that someone is merely *acting* nutsoid and insane rather than actually *being* nutsoid and insane?

[babylonsister]

3. You're a supposed liberal and you're trying to get another

website banished? There's something wrong with this pic...

I'm not crazy about kos because of the way the site is formatted, but otherwise, I think you need to calm down and think about your silly rant.

[davefromqueens]

5. marketplace of ideas

The site has every right to exist. It's bad for Democrats so I think we should all disown it. In fact most of the users are if you've read the threads there the past 2 weeks.

I can provide you a list, and I will in a future article, of hundreds of solid Democrats who have left the site. You can start with Barack Obama and read his criticisms of the site in December of 2006 in the Washington Post. (use your google.) I'm glad to agree with Obama.

Heck I'm hoping the GOP nominates SArah Palin in 2012. You know why? Obama wins 45 states and 60 percent of the vote if they do.

[cali]

kos is certainly not bad for dems

it's a successful site in a myriad of ways and it hosts some very good articles and discussions.

Furthermore, lots and lots of dem politicans post there, and that's a good thing.

You have an agenda. You loath kos. It's that simple and posters here deserve to know about it.

[davefromqueens]

12. is bashing caroline kennedy constantly?

Good for dems?

And what happened to the reality based community. Using me as a strawman won't work.

Why don't you come clean and tell this audience your screenname at Daily Kos? Scribe it out for us.

Oh, other than Gov. Paterson, name one elected Democratic official who has posted there in the past 5 weeks?

[cali]

20. that's simply false.

kos does not bash Kennedy constantly- not even close.

[davefromqueens]

23. lol

Okay, maybe it's every other day.

The bashing of Caroline Kennedy by him is obsessive.

how does it help Democrats? She is going to be the next Senator, she has a great relationship with Obama, she's going to get reelected, and she's going to do a great job.

Explain the attacks? Who do I want speaking for Dems - Hmmm Kos or CK? Very easy decision

[cali]

28. no, not even every other day.

Again, take your vendetta shit somewhere else. stop trying to dishonestly manipulate DUers. It sucks.

Oh, and do tell us all about how you and Governor Paterson talk daily, and that's how you know he's going to appoint Kennedy.

[davefromqueens]

31. How about letting DUers

Decide for themselves.

I don't manipulate. For you to insult them by thinking they are fools is, well insulting.

[LanternWaste]

51. I certainly have.

"How about letting DUers Decide for themselves..."

I certainly have. My verdict is in-- you appear to acting in a most disingenuous manner.

[davefromqueens]

59. you are entitled

to your opinion.

[LanternWaste]

74. May I also have permission to call the sky blue?

really? I'm entitled to my opinion? How very magnanimous of you. How very, very generous of you.


May I also have permission to call the sky blue?

[davefromqueens]

76. or purple

but you don't need my permission. If you think the sky is brown, you can just say so.

But since you value the right of people's opinions, I'm sure you'll appreciate the right of others to disagree with you.

[LanternWaste]

77. Sure I do.

"I'm sure you'll appreciate the right of others to disagree with you..."
Sure I do.

However... I don't value someone telling me something as obvious as we all "have the right to our opinions" (whatever the hell that little bumper sticker means). As a matter of fact, I see it (at best) as a waste of time to state something so absurdly obvious that it is already a de facto implication without any necessary qualifiers stating as such.

Kicking for your agenda, hmmm?

[davefromqueens]

85. Educate me

What is my agenda because I haven't gotten the memo yet. Tell me what I don't know.

[LanternWaste]

50. It's not a marketplace of ideas...

It's not a marketplace of ideas (a consistent term I hear from my RW friends-- odd that)... it's merely a popularity contest of ideas.

And what may or may not be popular is not necessarily either the best or the most effective.

[davefromqueens]

63. good last comment

"And what may or may not be popular is not necessarily either the best or the most effective."

I concur.

[wildflower]

116. I have been googling and can't seem to find that article, but I found this quote:

"One good test as to whether folks are doing interesting work is, Can they surprise me. And increasingly, when I read Daily Kos, it doesn’t surprise me. It’s all just exactly what I would expect.”

The quote is from http://nymag.com/news/politics/21681/index4.html ; Obama is speaking to Jennifer Senior from New York Magazine.

I can't find anything else, but I'm interested to know what the article you're referencing said.

[malaise]

67. Very well said

What a stupid rant. Kos is a Democratic forum

[davefromqueens]

70. Disagree. Kos is not a Democratic forum

Big C or little c.

It's a site that enables Republicans and helps Republicans and destroys Democrats.

It may pretend to be a Democratic site, it may call itself that, but in practice it is not. It's a site that helpes Republicans and hurts Democrats.

You have a different opinion than me, I respect your right to differ.

[annabanana]

100. Living in the world where MOST media consumption is from corporate

monopolies, I hardly feel the need to cull ANY progressive voices from the stage. It is when we are in concert that corporate media is shamed into grudgingly giving coverage on subjects that drive us all.

I do not think we are in competition.

[DS1]

4. That would have to be a spectacular turn-around

and I'm not buying it

[davefromqueens]

6. Go To Alexa

As one of my favorite radio talk show hosts in America, Randi Rhodes says -

don't believe me, go research it yourself.

[DS1]

11. I'd rather not have to research your claims

Post the link

[davefromqueens]

14. link

http://www.alexa.com/

I hope it showed up. If not, fill in dailykos.com and democraticunderground.com and click compare sites on the graph below.

[DS1]

17. The results don't support your claims

Figures.

[davefromqueens]

26. well you didn't check

or didn't read.

Nice tactic.

Seen it before.

Ask for proof, get proof, then say proof doesn't say what it says it says.

DU's weekly avg was 8100, Kos was 9500

Moreover look at the graph and trends. Never before mid November had this site been ahead of Kos. Now it's ahead frequently.

Don't let facts get in your way.

[DS1]

53. I did check, I did read, you're still full of shit

[davefromqueens]

60. no you didn't

[Freddie Stubbs]

39. Alexa only tracks the web activity of those who have installed the Alexa spyware on their computers

[davefromqueens]

43. which leads me to conclude

that I've overstated his rankings

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. Overstated compared to whom?

:shrug:

[Hawkeye-X]

44. That is all I needed to know about you

Freepers only use alexa as a rating source because they are stupid enough to install malwares. I give alexa a big thumbs down

[NashVegas]

7. DU Got Just As Trashed During Primary Season

And it's amusing to watch the few remaining seasonal trolls have shit fits now that we're talking more about policies than personalities.

[On the Road]

8. DailyKos s Dropping

because it's driven primarily by political news (which has dropped) and DU is driven primarily by discussion (which is still going strong).

[shireen]

9. if you find Kos objectionable, stop going there!

I have no idea who you are, and have no idea why you dislike Moulitsas so much. But that's your business, not ours.

"Who speaks for the netroots"
"Who speaks for Democrats?"
"Who speaks for progressives?"

You're right, the answer is "no one person." That includes YOU.

[davefromqueens]

21. I'm the guy who

I never claimed to and I'll affirmatively claim I don't.

As for me

I'm the guy who goes face to face with Randall Terry just so you can see video of him making death threats while he's yelling at me.

I'm the guy who goes face to face with Sean Hannity, Phil boyce and Mark Levin while others sit on their keyboards and has to explain to cops why these bozos are trying to falsely arrest me and then 10 mins later have the cops apologizing to me.

I'm the guy who puts myself in McCain Town halls so that questions can get asked and nuances exposed that the media won't tell you.

I'm the guy who walks near the front of anti-Iraq war protests who has distributed many of the signs.

I'm the guy who gives signs to others which appear as backdrops.

I'm the guy who gets surrounded by 10 Promise Keepers who say that they would kill me if no women are around.

I'm also the guy who has walked the beat for dems, licked the envelopes you

I'm also the guy who has exposed several stories such as the scams of Hannity concerts and the pumping in of fake cheers.

Come join the frontlines sometime.

[cali]

25. I've gone face to face with Terry myself.

so what? I did it when he set up shop in VT over civil unions. I've marched against the war. I've been involved actively for years.

Don't make assumptions, dearie.

[davefromqueens]

32. face to face

go to max blumenthal's article from Virginia Beach

See Terry yelling and screaming.

I'm the person shooting the video and asking the questions.

Waving at Randall from 1000 feet away doesn't count.

[acmavm]

41. PROVE IT

[rvablue]

55. You are also the guy who only

posts nasty things about DKos on DU but never contributes anything else.

[davefromqueens]

58. Other than 2 diaries

which tell factual stuff and very light for that matter for 99% of the heavy truths about Kos are posted elsewhere with more to come, I haven't posted a single comment about Kos here.

Most of my comments relate to other issues.

Don't let facts get in your way.

[rvablue]

71. Really? Not a single one? Obviously you don't allow facts to get in YOUR way

b/c the last time we interacted on DU, it was on an OP from you, once again describing Kos, as the "Kostapo."

When you wrote, "I haven't posted a single comment about Kos here," does it mean you simply forgot that you have? Because you have. And I DO "let facts get in my way," I LOVE facts and use them to prove my points. And it is a FACT that you have posted smear about DKos here before.

FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT.

[davefromqueens]

72. wow you are being dishonest and it's out in the open

You quote half a sentence and leave out the other part.

And you make it so obvious.

Other than in two diaries/threads, when have I posted here about Kos?

[rvablue]

73. But you said you have never posted about them before. And you have. n/t

[davefromqueens]

75. not what I said

If you are going to quote me, quote my entire sentence so the proper contect is there.

Your inability to do so and take part of a sentence and pass it off as an entire thought is a reflection on your integrity and honesty, not mine.

[muriel_volestrangler]

126. There isn't such a thing as a 'diary' here

Your obsession with Daily Kos is showing in your vocabulary. If you dislike it so much, then try to get out of its way of thinking. Then you may not feel so threatened by it. It's another Democratic website. It's not a threat to Democrats, or to Democratic Underground. It's quite easy to ignore it.

[shireen]

112. you're entitled to your opinions

what i found objectionable was how you were telling us what we should do:
I will further argue that we should do the Democratic Party a huge favor and disown this hateful man ...

If you want to make a case for your point, please do it with care.
1) present the reasons for your objections with specifics. I've not read your previous posts, so i have no idea who you are and why you intensely dislike Kos. All i saw was a provocative rant.
2) don't tell us what we should do. By all means state what YOU would do, but don't tell us to follow your lead.

You've presented a list of all your accomplishment -- good for you -- but i still have no idea who you are and specifically why you dislike Kos.

[blogslut]

15. Alexa rankings leave a lot to be desired

As for Kos, I am sure the site will be fine with or without you.

[DavidDvorkin]

19. Alexa ratings reflect how many people access a site using the Alexa toolbar

They aren't general Web ratings.

[MADem]

24. I think the "netroots," in general, are jumping the shark. They won't go away, but they

aren't as satisfying as real people in real relationships. They'll continue to be used as a tool to motivate and incite and organize, but it's impossible to maintain a level of ZEAL that equates to what happened this last election cycle.

KOS fucked up--and other sites did, too--by getting all didactic and pure and insisting that people "toe the line" with regard to the candidate of choice.

Lockstep, unthinking loyalty is always a turn-off. The "no dissent" rules are unattractive.

It's impossible to enforce civility, though. If it were possible, there could probably be more interesting, dissenting conversations on the issues. Regrettably, when you have two opposing views on the anonymous internet, it always seems to devolve into "You asshole!" "No, you're a (fill in political insult--choose from capitalist tool to potsmoking hippie and then some)!"

And it doesn't even have to be Left v. Right. Even within political groups, there are "degrees." I get accused of being a right wing troll all the time, even though I'm a strong social liberal and an economic moderate. The reason for that, I guess, is because I believe in a firm national defense, too.

Anyway, I don't think DU is moving up so much as people are getting off their computers and spending less time on political sites overall. I took a long break from this place because it was getting too hideous during the election. I notice that a lot of the rude, nasty big-mouthed (let me be clear on what they were) ASSHOLES who ran around bullying and insulting people are magically....GONE. Gee, isn't that ... special? I don't think all of them were tombstoned, either. I think plenty of them are just dormant.....

[davefromqueens]

30. An intelligent and cogent remark

although I disagree with small parts of it.

Where Kos screwed up was with the equivalent of loyalty oaths. Worse than that, it's when he applied two different set of rules where it became clear to his users that indeed Kos Kops existed and that rules don't apply to them.

For example, the actions of Dana Houle simply drive Democrats away from that site. Unfortunately there are people like that everywhere, who think that they can squelch dissent, even with people aligned with them on almost every issue. They are more interested in cults than issues. and Kos has a cult following. And cultists posts on multiple sites.

With the internet, it enables certain people, usually those who would get the stuffing beat out of them in real life if they acted this way in public, to act like bullies and go after people just for the thrill of it without revealing their identity.

Now a legit discussion of whether Kos is good or bad for Democrats can be had and while there are people who would disagree with me, that doesn't make them a de facto troll. However, disagree with some of them, and automatically they are a troll.

I put a long list of things I've done on the frontlines for Dems in this thread. My views on almost every major issue align with most Democrats. But that can't be good enough for some people.

[MADem]

54. I'll be honest. I only read that site.

I never contributed to it or even registered. I found it....cumbersome. Hard to navigate. And I didn't think "Orange Revolution" when I saw that horrid color, I thought "bad Fanta Naranja. Where's the aseo?"

I'm not familiar with Dana Houle or that person's views or attitude. I did go over and read his "bio"to try to grab a hint, but it was just one of those idiotic "cutesy" ones that you might see in People Magazine or Vanity Fair if they were having a bad day, editorially speaking.

I did find some swell and sometimes unique points made there, many, in fact, and there was a lot of interesting commentary if one had the energy to sift through it all. There weren't, at least initially (later was a different story), a paucity of views, but I did notice that the ratings for posts (up and down) were influenced by one's "fame" on the site. New people with a good idea got the old EFF U from, apparently, the regulars. Then, as the site became more "focused like a laser beam" (to swipe a saying from GWB) on a specific candidate, even before the convention, it started getting ugly and it appeared to me that the purges began. It was around that time that I just turned off my computer for awhile. Too much agita!

Whether the site is good or bad, ultimately, is, like so many things, subjective. To the GOP, it's SAAATAN! To the Kos Kult Kids, it's Paradise. To people who look at everything with a jaundiced eye, it's "Eh." To people who think that the Kos guy is a bit puffed up, it's an opportunity for target practice.

You'll never please everyone, I've learned that in my later years. No matter how careful you try to be, or how many caveats you include in your discussions, there will always be sad little dweeb/bullies who get their psychic joy from being Internet Tough Guys, and who will disagree with you while also being VERY disagreeable. The way I look at it though, that's THEIR problem, not mine. If you had the time or the inclination, you'd feel sorry for those types--what an empty life they must lead! It's not enough to debate and disagree, they just HAVE to be boorish as well.

[davefromqueens]

62. Yep

The larger issue raised, way beyond my diary, is whether or not Kos is good or bad for Democrats.

A normal person can argue both sides civilly and call it a day. I believe Kos is a poison for Democrats and I"m glad Obama denounced and rejected him back in 2006. It's probably one of the reasons why he got the Democratic nomination and won the general. However, people can argue differently and merely disagreeing with me doesn't make them Freepers or trolls.

Instead you have certain Kos cultists who have shown up here not to defend but to smear anyone who criticizes Herr Markos. And they can't do it factually. You give them the link to Alexa and exact directions and they deny it.

I've been on the frontlines fighting for Democrats. These internet bullies hide behind keyboards.

[MADem]

81. My impression of that fellow is that he's good for HIMSELF.

He's a master of self-promotion, I will give him that. For awhile, the little shit was everywhere. He managed to make himself "Mister Blog" who explained the Mysteries of the Keyboard to the tools at the MSM for awhile. They'd throw his face up there and have him spout like an oracle, explaining the "internets" to all of us stupid people watching our tee vees, slack jawed and confused because we weren't "hip kids" who could easily process these things (it was all very insulting, to my mind, actually).

Then, the MSM finally got wise, and threw up crappy little sites of their own, as extensions of their Big Tube In The Livingroom outreach. I'm glad they did--I tire of "cable news"--and particularly the big mouthed, effing STUPID "pundits" who proudly spout misrepresentations and flat-out lies, and the news presenters/questioners are too frigging stupid to call them on it or correct them. It's much better for the blood pressure, and way easier, to get your news from the web; in-n-out! No pontificating from assholes who are weak at the subject matter, and who have just come from their OWN computers trying to get "factoids" to throw into their conversations to make it appear that they know what the heck they're talking about!

I don't know about his site being bad, or even poison, for Democrats, I suppose you could say that ANY partisan site that "takes it too far" (there's a couple of GOP sites that are gems, too) has potential to put that "stink" on the party for whom they advocate.

Actually, I'd say that most voters, the majority of them, if asked what DAILY KOS was, would have NO idea. If shown the site, they probably wouldn't care about it, either--it's just too difficult to navigate, and it reads like an echo chamber nowadays.

[bottomtheweaver]

27. I don't imagine Kos admitting he worked for the CIA helped matters.

Why he decided to spill the beans I haven't figured out, but he did:

In a one-hour interview on June 2, 2006 interview at the Commonwealth Club, Moulitsas, also known as "Kos," admitted that he was a CIA employee and would have "no problem working for them" in the present:

"As an organization their heart is in the right place. I've never had any problem with the CIA." -- Markos Moulitsas Zúniga, June 2, 2006.

link: http://www.myleftwing.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=17528

Audio link to Kos's 6-02-06 interview at the Commonwealth Club:

Markos Moulitsas Zúniga <6-02-06>: http://www.commonwealthclub.org/archive/06/06-06zuniga-audio.html

Strange but true, or maybe not so strange.

[cali]

29. oh, please. do you really think that some poster is

on wiki is evidence of anything? Pathetic.

[davefromqueens]

33. again reveal your identity at DailyKos

come on, tell them what nic(s) you post with at DailyKos.

now the person brings up the CIA angle. Now here's the kicker. It's the one line I've never gone after Kos on. I find it too attenuated. However, I'm not going to attack the commenter with name calling like you did. For even though I disagree, it's possible the commenter turns out right in the end.

[bottomtheweaver]

34. Listen to the 6-02-06 interview. I just posted the links.

And no, I've never posted at KOS and don't intend to.

[davefromqueens]

35. It's a valid post to raise

because of the timeline and contradictory months said.

However, I can't come to that conclusion.

[bottomtheweaver]

38. I've never had much luck navigating that site,

so I'm not terribly familiar with it, but I've heard KOS interviewed on Pacifica and he's always had crappy things to say about Kerry, and now I see from DU he's crapping on Caroline K, so it's not hard for me to leap to conclusions. Maybe I'm just suspicious but who wouldn't be at this point.

[davefromqueens]

42. he craps on lots of Democrats

Kucinich for one. Kerry got it back in 2004. Obama got it in 2007. He actually equated Obama with right wingers.

He said back in June of 2008 that he's going to work to get rid of Democrats from Congress for the 2010 election. Yep, says this 29 months in advance.

Some might call this behavior the behavior of a troll or a republican operative.

But if you give him $14,000 he'll write up a story for you on the front page.

[bottomtheweaver]

47. That doesn't surprise me.

I know he was in the military because he says so on his front page. The stuff people bring here from KOS is interesting sometimes but the last time I followed a link to back to his site was to a post about the Connell crash, and at least half the responses were heavy-duty "debunkers," and that type of thought herding really sticks in my craw.

[davefromqueens]

64. certain topics are taboo

One of the myths is that the site is a community moderated site. It's not. Now I defend their right to ban anybody for any reason at all but their rules (FAQS) say otherwise. I've seen thousands of people banned from the site who are Democrats who broke NO rules. They were banned for thoughtcrime. I/P, election, and impeachment were the 3 big areas. There are others.

Kos is the worst of two worlds for Democrats. On one hand he enables the DLC crowd and on the other hand he gives progressives a bad name because he is portrayed as the Left. Was Jim Webb wrong for leaving? Obama? Congresswoman Slaughter? John Cusack? Greg Palast? David Swanson? And thousands of others? Are we all wrong?

[bottomtheweaver]

36. No, which is why I just posted a link to the actual interview.

Listen to Kos's 6-02-06 interview. Then ask yourself how he paid for the damn thing if he was as broke as he also admits to have been.

Heck the CIA advertises on Spanish-language commerical radio, so it's not like people don't actually work for them.

[pacalo]

93. Oh, good grief. You attack this poster like he said something personal against you.

He stated an opinion, & you gave him your usual negative, degrading reply. No need to muddle this thread any further. If anything, I admire his self-restraint in his replies.

[robertpaulsen]

88. Jesus Christ! How the fuck can he vacillate like this & have anyone take him seriously?

Actually, vacillation is a kind accusation. I think he's just a really bad bullshitter.

From your myleftwing.com link:

This is a very liberal institution. And in a lot of ways, it really does attract people who want to make a better, you know, want to make the world a better place . . . Of course, they've got their Dirty Ops and this and that, right but as an institution itself the CIA is really interested in stable world. That's what they're interested in. And stable worlds aren't created by destabilizing regimes and creating wars.


Riiight. And those Dirty Ops and this and that, those are just aberrations, not policy? :wtf:

I really haven't read much about Kos prior to reading this. Back in 2004, there were rumblings here of a Stalinist purge of anything related to the 9/11 Truth movement, which did not make me particularly fond of Kos as I had an interest in 9/11 Truth at that time. Back then, the 9/11 Truth movement seemed more interested in pursuing leads connected with the history of false flag operations as opposed to now where the focus of investigation seems obsessed with Morgan Reynolds disinformation. I kind of brushed those charges aside with indifference, but now I think I understand where Markos Moulitsas was coming from. Pretty sneaky, sis.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

46. BarbinMd was an excellent source during the campaign

- that's the only response I have to this.

We use a myriad of sources in our advocacy or research which may or may not always agree with our thinking or motives. Daily Kos is kool by me.

[davefromqueens]

65. There is some good on the site

In fact most of the users are good.

Barbinmd I know a lot more about, things I won't reveal here.

[shadowknows69]

48. We just ROCK!!!

[Joanne98]

52. There's nothing wrong with Kos. He has a right to his opinion.

That a great website. We need it. The more the better. IMHO If DU is beating Kos in the ratings, it's because of the format. DU is faster paced, easier to navigate and more exciting. I wish more forums would copy DU's structure.

[EFerrari]

61. After using DU, Kos is an annoying mess. n/t

[supernova]

68. I've never had the patience

to figure out the format of DK.

:crazy:

I think both DU and DK have been invaluable to progressive politics and web activism the past several years.

[davefromqueens]

66. I defend his right to an opinion

He's entitled to it just like all of us.

[Fireweed247]

56. Kos is an ass and the site is too controlled

DU has a much better format so it is much easier to have a live discussion besides most of the people here are just so cool we keep coming back for more. I love DUers :hug: :loveya:

Do you have a link for checking the ratings?

[davefromqueens]

69. go to alexa.com

It didn't allow an indivudalized link.

At the top type in dailykos.com

Then you get a graph in the center of the page. You can see their huge decline.

You can even compare it to DU which has remained steady the past 6 weeks.


We as solid Democrats should simply disown this one individual. In a couple of weeks at my site I will highlight the hundreds of solid Democrats who have left the site or criticized him, along with some outrageous quotes from Kos' keyboard or mouth. We do not need someone like this in our party and I question that given that this man proudly boasts of having been a "Reagan Republican" and he worked for Henry Hyde.

[Fireweed247]

105. I think he is still working for the CIA

I think he was put up as a phony Democrat to mislead unthinking followers. He attacks people seeking the truth about 9/11, refuses to see the obvious election fraud etc. He voted for Bush!!! His commentary isn't all that great so how did his site get so popular, linked/posted everywhere, he has even been on talk shows...we all know the Corporate News does not really support alternative news...

[Odin2005]

107. Voted for Bush? BS

He purged you twoofer nuts several years back and you nuts are whining about it? Grow up.

[Fireweed247]

109. eh?

I have never posted on Kos, just read it. I hate the format.

[Naturyl]

57. I was never attracted to DailyKos.

Something about the layout and posting structure puts me off. I know little to nothing of the people at Kos, and I don't need to because DU is perfectly sufficient for me.

[Hissyspit]

90. DU is more fun.

[Swamp Rat]

101. rAmen!

[girl gone mad]

78. How did this garbage end up on the greatest page?

What a joke.

[davefromqueens]

83. because the silent majority of progressives and Democrats

believe that Kos is bad for progressives and Democrats and that he hurts us all. In short Markos Moulitsas is a republican enabler. He did work for henry hyde and called himself a reagan republican.

That's how it ended up there because most people agree with the thoughts. The loudmouth Kos Kops can be loud but they are the minority within the netroots, among Democrats, and amonger liberals and progressives.

[girl gone mad]

91. 9 votes is hardly a majority.

Good luck with your little revolution.

[LoZoccolo]

79. Rick Warren. n/t

[no limit]

80. First off Alexa doesn't mean shit. 2ndof all what the hell do you mean by real and solid Democrats?

What the fuck is this, a spectator sport and you are just supposed to tow in line?

The netroots is not the democrats problem. People like you are, the kind of people that will happily accept the DLC just because the DLC plays for your team. You are no better than a brainwashed right winger, learn to think for yourself.

[davefromqueens]

86. are you serious?

Since I'm a strong critic of the DLC, I find that funny.

Actually I was able to do in one question what Kos couldn't do in 1 hour and that was make Harold Ford look like a fool and expose Harold Ford for being a right winger.

[the other one]

87. I had forgotten about KOS

Stopped checking that site months ago.

This site is running the risk of following that site too.

[Bjorn Against]

89. There are many great diaries on Daily Kos...

I can not stand Kos himself however, he may be right sometimes but he is also extremely arrogant and is not a good spokesperson for the site in any way. I wouldn't go so far as to compare him to Ann Coulter, but he certainly does not have the same ability to make an argument that some of the other diarists on the site have.

[davefromqueens]

96. There are a lot of really good Democrats there

People like bondad, Jerome A Paris, dengre, lava, icebergslim, should all have been front pagers.

JedL does a good job using video, LithiumCola is solid, Meteorblades is an old timer, usually on the mark, Darksyde does great with Science.

And most of the users are decent people with lots of good ideas. The problem is Kos and we as Democrats better recognize it sooner rather than too late. He wrote back in June of this year that he's planning on trying to take out a whole bunch of Democrats in 2010 in primaries. I hope people see a problem with that. He wants to defeat Democrats who have yet to cast a vote in the upcoming Congress not knowing how they will adjust with a Democratic President. Thus, in order to do that, he HAS to undermine Democrats and he's been doing it for weeks, especially with the Caroline Kennedy bashing. He's a REpublican enabler, the worst thing connected to our side.

[Bjorn Against]

103. I have no problem with him supporting primary challenges.

Politicians need to be held accountable, and primary challenges are one very good way of holding them accountable. It is never fun to be stuck with a representative that doesn't represent you, and it is even more difficult when they come from the same party and you don't want to lose that seat for your party but at the same time want new leadership. I supported Ned Lamont's primary challenge to Lieberman, and I am sure I will support other primary challenges in the future.

I still don't like Kos though, he just comes across as too arrogant for my tastes and I don't really trust the guy especially with his apparent CIA connections.

[davefromqueens]

110. I actively volunteered for Lamont

and I was from NY so that might give you an idea of how serious I am about politics.

There is nothing wrong with primaries per se.

There is something wrong when a reason you support them are so that these challengers will pay you money to write articles on a website.

[Recursion]

94. Alexa is less than meaningless

Take Alexa with a grain of salt.

[davefromqueens]

98. fair enough, better statistis is JOTTER

JOtter is Kos' official statistician at dailyKos. I like the guy.

Jotter writes diaries keeping track of the stats of the site.

If you look at his numbers, you will see a massive drop in commenters, diarists, active users, etc... and this does not take into account multiple users or sockpuppets.

Jotter posts a diary everyday.

[Hissyspit]

104. So what does Jotter say about DU?

[davefromqueens]

124. JOTTERS STATISTICS FOR ALL

Okay a few people in here say Alexa is meaningless, etc.. I'll accept the premise for arguments sake.

I've compiled some statistics from Jotter, who keeps tracks of the stats at Daily Kos. I've put together diarists at the site and active users which they define as someone who writes a diary, comments, or recs a comment. The 2007 numbers are quarterly. The 2006 and 2005 numbers are yearly. I wish he had put together yearly numbers for 2007 similar to 06 and 05 OR quarterly numbers for 08, 06, or 05. If he has them I missed it. I am going to analyze these numbers in a different article elsewhere so I'll just leave them as is without my comments or interpretations.

Week Of Diarists Active Users
12/20/08 963 9,143
12/13/08 1232 10,537
12/6/08 1081 10,236
11/29/08 1085 10,743
11/22/08 1110 11,207
11/15/08 1599 13,609
11/8/08 1770 14,911
11/1/08 3790 18,411
10/25/08 2991 16,565
10/18/08 3024 16,356
10/11/08 2905 16,007
10/4/08 2961 15924
9/27/08 2989 15917
9/20/08 3047 14917
9/13/08 2863 --
9/6/08 3271 15255
8/30/08 3245 15046
8/22/08 2587 12844
8/16/08 1840 11279
8/9/08 1472 10436
8/2/08 1710 10752
7/26/08 1612 10434
7/19/08 1407 --
7/12/08 1487 09963
7/5/08 1473 10197
6/28/08 1469 10416
6/21/08 1547 10683
6/14/08 1623 11087
6/7/08 1801 11805
5/31/08 2208 12403
5/24/08 1676 11310
5/17/08 1819 11550
5/10/08 1767 11409
5/3/08 2028 11435
4/26/08 1806 10641
4/19/08 2054 10821
4/12/08 1891 10252
4/05/08 1484 10048
3/29/08 1720 10455
3/22/08 1872 10462
3/15/08 1993 10779
3/8/08 2089 11315
3/1/08 2119 10975
2/23/08 1740 10480
2/16/08 --- 10379
2/09/08 1954 10667
2/2/08 2044 10352
1-26/08 1887 09967
1/19/08 1593 09315


2007 Q4 - 16,364 active users 5,251 wrote diaries
2007 Q3- 17,732 active users 5,912 wrote diaries
2007 Q2 - 16,540 active users 5,333 wrote diaries
2007 Q1 17,098 active users 7,191 wrote diaries

2006 32,379 active users, 12,903 wrote diaries
2005 - 26,523 active users, 10,068 wrote diaries

[apocalypsehow]

95. Curious replies in this thread. I don't know the OP or the issues that have brought these replies,

but let me say this:

I barely have time in any given day to log into DU and participate here. Are you people telling me (and OP, I'm largely talking about the repliers, not you) that your days and lives are so free of any other productive activity that you actually have the time to keep up with the goings-on and drama at not just one political website, but two?

Do you people have jobs? :shrug:

Genuinely curious.

[bigtree]

102. I work nights and rob sleep to read and write, here and elsewhere

. . . some folks are restricted to an area and this is one of the productive activities they are able to participate in. I don't think it's any of your business tho, unless that info is offered by posters.

[apocalypsehow]

113. I didn't say it was my "business" - people are free to reply or ignore my post. Once they reply they

sorta kinda make it my "business," but I have no power to compel anyone to tell me anything.

On a side note, I think referring to posting anonymously on a political discussion board in the same breath with "productive activities" is a real howler.

A job is a "productive activity"; actively campaigning door-to-door for a candidate is a "productive activity"; manning a soup kitchen is a "productive activity"; passing the football back and forth in the back yard with your kids is a "productive activity"; hell, mowing the fucking yard is a "productive activity."

Posting at a political website may be many things - including fun - but "productive" it ain't. And people who think it is I pity, because they've misplaced something very valuable: life is hanging out in the Lost & Found booth somewhere, waiting for its owner to turn up and reclaim it.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[apocalypsehow]

121. These contests of wits with the half-armed are always diverting and amusing, but you begin to bore.

You haven't refuted one statement of mine, just burbled & babbled about "judging" people - and when bested you, of course, revert to the ad hominem attack. Mark of an "ignorant idiot," indeed.

I'll say it again: people whose primary "productive activity" in life is to post stuff on a political discussion don't have much of a life, and I pity them. You must be one, so I pity you.

[bigtree]

122. I don't have a clue why my post got deleted, but I think you should pity yourself

. . .and keep your insults about posters here to yourself. People have a myriad of reasons to come here and they don't deserve the flack. I don't know why it's so hard to understand that I'm not going to spend my time speaking for people I (or you either) know absolutely nothing about.

And 'bested me'?? You obviously take your own petty activity here too seriously.

[apocalypsehow]

123. "I don't have a clue why my post got deleted" - Somehow, that doesn't surprise. You've had a hard

time catching up with clues of any kind throughout this conversation.

Run along now, and play with the toys you got for Christmas.

[bigtree]

125. sounds like it's you who needs a life outside of DU

what a performance

[Starry Messenger]

99. I like on DU how we can post our opinions on OPs in the form of a picture.

[Odin2005]

106. Gee, some still bitter of Kos's refreshing purge a while back?

DKos was many times better after the 9/11 twoofers and related nuts were shown the door.

[davefromqueens]

111. My position on 9/11

Happens to be the position of Daily Kos.

Now go back to the store and try purchasing another line of attack from your smear book.

Double jeopardy starts in 5 minutes.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

108. You want to know why I dislike Kos?

It is purely personal. I don't need to check rankings nor do I have to take it from you or from anyone here who is defending the site why I should dislike it or like it...

I dislike the format. It is difficult to navigate and is driven by a singular set of ideas and principals... Not a personal dialog with others as this site is. The Kos is A BORE. It is a snooze fest.

I am an anti-war activist - In fact you probably know some of the people I know. I do not know about your personal relationship with Kos... Why? Because I stopped visiting the site due to what I wrote above. I also do not like getting all warm and cozy with people on the internets tubes.

I would never install the Alexa spyware on my computer and do not recommend doing so.

I like the Huffington Post - I find it to be a good site and I also like Crooks and Liars - Of course Ariana Huffington and John Amato are friends and commonly share information.

If, in fact, DU is "moving up" I think it is because of the points I made - however... WTF do I know about what thousands of other people using this message board think?

[Muttocracy]

114. speaking of stats, over 25% of your posts to DU are in this thread

How much time do you spend on DU anyway? :shrug:

[Arctic Dave]

115. The internet is vast. If you don't like what you see or read

click and move on.

[davefromqueens]

120. For the most part yes

But we must be aware of who people are and what they say. When Kos announces in June of 2008 that he is already plotting to take down Dems in 2010, I look at that as someone who is a troll or republican enabler. And thus I go into action to help our Democrats while he tries to destroy them. When he refers to democrats as "battered spouses," I document it for later use. When he viciously attacks Caroline Kennedy with more venom than he ever had toward McCain, I take note. When Obama campaigns for President and criticizes his web site and then wins in a landslide as a Democrat, I take note. Kos is a republican enabler and real and solid Democrats want nothing to do with him.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

117. It's winter break, and DU is easier to troll. That's why it's ahead.

Scads of RW racists, libertarians and other troglodytes come here looking to tweak the membership. Their numbers jump whenever College Republicans and lulzy Anonymi get a block of free time.

What's more, plenty of anti-Dem posters get solid followings on DU. That's not exclusive to Kos.

[eridani]

118. I don't like the Kos format

Bulletin boards are much easier to find things on for me.