Please. I would like a non-emotional analysis of a I/P topic. No flames in this thread please.

[Smith_3]

One thing strikes me curious with regards to this topic. It seems like many people are prone to "side" with either the palestineans or the isrealis, even if they are personally completely un-involved in the conflict.

I have seen otherwise totally rational people take completely unreflected stances in defense of "their side" whenever this topic arises. It also seems like people who agree on most other issues can be totally split with regards to this.

I mean, often people don't even care to look at the facts before choosing "their side" in this issue. It seems like the rationalization comes afterwards, whereas people will look for the facts that support their view (and they will find them, since there is alot of "bad stuff" or "good stuff" one could find about both sides). Occasionally, when discussions get heated, people drop their rationalizations and show their sheer unreflected hate for the other side. I know this phenomenon is quite common, but it seems to be exceptionally prominent with this topic.

I would like to analyse (with no inflammatory rhetoric whatsoever please), what exactly seperates a "palestine person" from a "israel person". Although I am sure that there can be several reasons, I think it would be interesting to look into this.

edit: I kindly ask if the mods could leave this thread in GD but delete any post that is even remotely inflammatory.

[ixion]

1. the difference

is religious affiliation, by definition, and political affiliation, by proxy.

Other than that, they're both very much human.

[cali]

2. I'm unclear as to what you mean by religious affiliation

Could you explain? Thanks.

[chimpymustgo]

3. Some posters immediately start calling names. I'd love a discussion of the issues and solutions.

Are there any realistically? It sickens me to see the Palestinians so defenseless against this assault. But Israel's government doesn't listen to its' people. Our govt doesn't listen to US. What is the solution?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. In a way they can overlap

Palestinians are those who descended from folks who lived in the area before the start of large migrations of Jews from Europe. Interestingly enough, then, Palestinians can be Jewish, Christian, or Muslim. They identify themselves as Palestinian if their families lost land to the Israel when that country was formed in 1948. (It's more complex than that--some of the disputed land was purchased from absentee landlords and the tenants asked to leave, for example, but you get the idea.) Palestinians feel marginalized and basically voiceless in Israel, even though those living in Israel proper are Israeli citizens, even members of the Knesset.

Israelis include both the Palestinians living in Israel proper and those whose roots are in Europe and other countries such as the US and Canada. The "new Israelis" see it as right and proper that Jews from around the world be granted full citizenship in their country due to the oppression of Jews in other places such as Russia. Palestinians often rankle at this notion, since they and their families have lived there for generations yet are treated as second class citizens.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

5. On a genetic level, very little.

I remember reading a report in Discover magazine some years ago that concluded that Israelis and Palestinians were the two genetically most similar ethnic groups on the planet.

Aside from that, the quick and dirty definition that we rely on generally falls on (very obvious) political and religious lines.

[snot]

6. I'd be happy just to get an unbiased recount of the facts.

I'm having a hard time with the bias problem but also just, what the hell happened, is happening -- a lot of sources assume we already know.

IS there even any relatively objective source on basic facts such as, re- Gaza, how much control do Palestinian authorities really have over whoever's been firing rockets at Israel? How many Israelis have died in those rocket attacks? What proportion of Palestinians have any connection to those involved in those rocket attacks? What right do Israelis have to blockade the Palestinians in Gaza? How many Palestinians have died as a result of that blockade (starvation, lack of medical treatment, etc.)?

And that's just the beginning.

I am very ignorant about the whole thing; and based on WWII etc., I can't blame the Israelis for being paranoid. But frankly, my general impression is that during the last decade or two, the Israelis have been more successful as aggressors than have their enemies, and I think they are effectively occupying more territory than they were originally given? And let's face it, even the original territory was originally wrested from other peoples in possession, no?

Should they more appropriately have been given the pre- WWI territory of Germany? Like, at least the Germans are sort of the ones who mainly abetted the Holocaust; but I guess we didn't want all those jews in the middle of Europe, so let's stick them in a desert in the middle of their next-worse enemies, stealing those enemies' lands to ensure their eternal hostility . . .

Go ahead and flame me, but it's not like I've read nothing about this situation, all from a v. pro-Israel p.o.v., but the whole thing still doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Esp. this obsession with particular locations. How can anyone imagine a decent god cares more about recapturing a particular geographical point, than in not obeying what must surely be a v. impt. command by any decent god, Thou Shalt Not Kill.

I know it's no good appeasing bullies, but.

'mKay, flame away.

[TheWraith]

13. Answers.

"re- Gaza, how much control do Palestinian authorities really have over whoever's been firing rockets at Israel?"

Could be anywhere from "total" to "none" depending on who's actually firing the rockets. Hamas, which is currently in control of Gaza, has shown a history for both firing rockets themselves and for casually harboring other people who do. Odds are that they've probably tacitly sanctioned a certain amount of harassment. Of course, as in any government, it doesn't necessarily operate as one coherent entity. Say, some guys in one part of the security forces could be launching rockets, and others somewhere else might be totally unaware that they're doing it.

"How many Israelis have died in those rocket attacks?"

In the current round, none. Some have died in previous rounds of rocket attacks, such as up to 43 dead in the large sustained barrage launched from southern Lebanon in 2006 during the Israeli invasion there.

"What proportion of Palestinians have any connection to those involved in those rocket attacks?"

A small subset of the even smaller subset that has any degree of political power. It's like asking what proportion of Americans have any connection to, say, bombing Iraq. You may know somebody who knows somebody, but then you might not.

"What right do Israelis have to blockade the Palestinians in Gaza?"

Gaza isn't a recognized country, so in effect you can't really have an act of war against them (which a blockade constitutes). In that case, you can pretty much do anything to them that doesn't provoke another country.

"How many Palestinians have died as a result of that blockade (starvation, lack of medical treatment, etc.)?"

Nobody knows. The same conditions that create the situation make it difficult bordering on impossible to produce an accurate picture. However, there's a small breach in the border wall on the Egypt side, so some amount of food and medicine can make it in if people are willing to go to Egypt to get it. The UN estimated that half of the 1.5 million people in Gaza made the trip to Egypt when the breach first opened. That should give you some impression of the situation.

"But frankly, my general impression is that during the last decade or two, the Israelis have been more successful as aggressors than have their enemies,"

Longer than that, even. The only substantial reverse the Israelis have suffered on the battlefield was the Yom Kippur War, a failure which was in many ways the fault of Israeli intelligence. Distracted by foreign operations and assassinations in the wake of the Munich bombing, they missed the preparations by Egypt and Syria.

"and I think they are effectively occupying more territory than they were originally given?"

If you're referring to the UN partition plan, yes. The original plan was for a Jewish state and an Arab state, each covering the areas of highest concentration. Currently the Israelis occupy all the land that was alloted to them and about half of the land that was slated for the Palestinian state, not counting the West Bank and Gaza.

"And let's face it, even the original territory was originally wrested from other peoples in possession, no?"

Well, yes. David Ben-Gurion said it pretty well:

Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, we come from Israel, it’s true, but 2,000 years ago, and what is that to them?

There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?

***

While the Israeli population sources from all over the place, the original impetus was primarily immigrants from Europe who came there with the specific purpose of colonizing the area.

"Should they more appropriately have been given the pre- WWI territory of Germany?"

I think the Germans would have had issues with that. Flip it around: since the US has destroyed Iraq and killed north of a million Iraqis, shouldn't we give the Iraqis our country in payment? Once you start down the road of collective guilt and collective punishment, how far are you from "This entire group of people is a problem and needs to be gotten rid of"?

"Esp. this obsession with particular locations. How can anyone imagine a decent god cares more about recapturing a particular geographical point, than in not obeying what must surely be a v. impt. command by any decent god, Thou Shalt Not Kill."

Sure. But once you introduce logic to this situation, it all breaks down.

To be honest, religion has a lot less to do with it than you might think: in many ways the Israeli/Arab/Palestinian thing boils down to accumulated hatred and people lost in their own subjectivity. Both sides see themselves as the victim, forced to do what they do out of neccessity, and the other guy as an evil caricature who does the heinous because they enjoy it.

[snot]

16. Thanks, that helps somewhat.

[Kaleko]

17. That's a very nuanced and well-informed post, Wraith.

I've been to both places, as well as the surrounding countries in the ME. You sound like you know whereof you speak.

[ConsAreLiars]

19. Thanks for the trouble you took to answer.

Well informed and objective posts like that are an all-too-rare treasure.

[KittyWampus]

7. I just keep thinking of two little brats fighting "but MOooooom, Johnny hit me first"

[LeftishBrit]

8. Just to clarify...

when you ask "what exactly seperates a "palestine person" from a "israel person"?" are you referring to the Israelis and Palestinians themselves, or to the people who support them elsewhere?

[Smith_3]

9. The later.

It is rather obvious that people who are immideately involved support "their side". I wonder more about the people elsewhere.

[On the Road]

10. Compare it to Black-White Identity in the US:

There are many people with mixed genetics, but virtually everyone is identified or identifies themselves with one race or another. This is true even though in the US equality is built into the law and a lot of it is a matter of personal choice.

In a society where different ethnic groups have different legal treatment, ethnic identity becomes almost frozen. In order to escape unfavorable treatment as a Palestinian, you would have to pass as a Jew or perhaps a Western Christian. Maybe this happens, but it's rare. You may also have a few children of Israeli-Palestine marriages -- I don't know how those are treated, they might retain the legal benefits conferred by the Israeli parent.

Because Israel was created so recently, it's usually pretty clear what a person's ethnicity is. Although a view Jews lived in Palestine for centuries, it was the Zionist movement that brought an overwhelming part of the Jewish population to what became Israel. People know and can demonstrate where their ancestors came from. Palenstinians, whether Muslim or Christian, by definition came from the same general area before Zionist settlement.

[Pavulon]

11. This is a land dispute, like many running in Africa

right now. The difference is both sides have a cold war history AND wrap up in religion.

People refuse to look at this in an analytical matter. It is really sad to see smart people get really stupid on this topic.

Solutions to this will be painful, a pre 67 Israel and Jerusalem will have to be split or otherwise negotiated.

People there who have made a lifestyle of killing the other side will have to stop, or be made to stop.

[Fleshdancer]

12. I have never been able to choose a side

I think both sides are right and I think both sides are wrong. Since I'm very opinionated and usually think I have the perfect answer for EVERYTHING, this topic frustrates me to no end. I honestly have no idea how to fix this issue other than screaming "STOP IT AND PLAY NICE!" to both sides. Unfortunately that doesn't work.

I haven't read through this thread yet, so forgive me if this question has already been answered, but when you say "palestine person" and "israel person" are you talking about people who take the side of either the Palestinians or Israelis or are you talking about the Palestinians and Israelis?

[On the Road]

14. Here is Some Genetic Background

Not exactly to your question, but it puts the social definition in context:

--The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite. The Israelite haplotypes fall into Y-DNA haplogroups J and E.

--Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples such as Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q (typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European).

--Sephardim also descend, in a smaller way, from various non-Israelite peoples.

--Ethiopian Jews are almost exclusively Ethiopian, with little or no Israelite ancestry.

--Bene Israel Jews and Cochin Jews of India have much Indian ancestry in their mtDNA.

--Palestinian Arabs are probably partly Israelite.

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html

[HamdenRice]

15. Three groups who have been victims of genocide have taken defensive militarism over the top

There is a remarkable parallel:

The Boers of South Africa (Dutch speaking whites) experienced a genocidal war against them by the British Empire during the Second Boer War. They then proceeded to "take it out" on the indigenous Africans.

The Jews of Europe experienced genocide during WWII, and they then "took it out on" the Arabs of Palestine.

The Tutsis of Rwanda experienced genocide at the hands of the Hutus, and then proceeded to "take it out on" the Hutus and related groups of Eastern Congo.

I think there's a psycho-political aspect of these historical events that is not given enough attention.

[JackRiddler]

18. For me there are certain key factors that make this conflict different...

1) Israel has been the top recipient of US aid and arms for many decades, so this is an American issue.

2) Israel was founded as a settler colonial enterprise based on ethnic identity and settles people who have never even set foot there before, on the land of the native inhabitants.

3) I expect better from a modern democratic nation than to see it imprison and starve a couple of million indigenes. (What's new in this, I guess you could legitimately ask.)

4) Disproportionate and collective punishment.

5) Ridiculously pro-Israel propaganda in US media, and still the hardliners complaining that it's biased against Israel. Every massacre, it's "fighting back."

6) Major and aggressive nuclear power in the middle of a tinderbox.

But see 1, again. This is by extension an American war. Can't happen without the flow of billions in US taxpayer money. So it's our issue to focus on.

[Ron Green]

20. In any conflict it's absolutely up to the stronger power (Israel, in this case)

to step back from escalation, because the stronger party has more options. It's exactly the same with individual conflict; the adult de-escalates so the child can save face and learn by example. This isn't happening here, although it could if Israel had leaders that were circumspect and forgiving.