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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 09:23 PM
Original message
Four things the Dems in congress got terribly wrong, and "the left" got very right.
Here are four things that were passed that harmed our country greatly, that are the cause of the financial and moral authority problems unfolding now so quickly. And yes, we need to discuss it because it appears the media and the DC consultants are going to be trying to paint us again as the enemy. We are not. We have been right almost 100% of the way the last 8 years as so many rushed to support Bush's radical agendas.

We are lucky to have a good man now as president come January 20. But winning the White House back won't solve our problem. Changing mindsets in Democrats who are DC insiders is the only way the problem will be solved.

We on "the left" did not vote for this Iraq invasion that has bankrupted our country in the name of oil-grabbing and "spreading Democracy" at the point of a gun. It falls to our new president to figure out how to handle this invasion that was approved of by our former Democratic president.

Bill Clinton expressed support for the Iraq War

Former President Clinton has revealed that he continues to support President Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq but chastised the administration over the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.

"I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

Clinton, who was interviewed Thursday, said he did not believe that Bush went to war in Iraq over oil or for imperialist reasons but out of a genuine belief that large quantities of weapons of mass destruction remained unaccounted for.

...."I want it to have been worth it, even though I didn't agree with the timing of the attack," Clinton said"


His wife during the campaign this year even said we had given Iraqis the gift of freedom

March 24, 2008...the "gift of freedom"

"In the last five years, our soldiers have done everything we asked of them and more. They were asked to remove Saddam Hussein from power and bring him to justice and they did. They were asked to give the Iraqi people the opportunity for free and fair elections and they did. They were asked to give the Iraqi government the space and time for political reconciliation, and they did. So for every American soldier who has made the ultimate sacrifice for this mission, we should imagine carved in stone: 'They gave their life for the greatest gift one can give to a fellow human being, the gift of freedom."

She said this three times before.


I don't believe we gave them the gift of freedom. I think we gave them heartbreak, chaos, many civilian deaths, and a destruction of their infrastructure.

Hubby and I worked long hours and spent much money on calls to plead with our Congress not to back this war. We here at DU knew Saddam was no threat. It is not our fault, it is not my fault that we invaded a country that had not harmed us.

The left as a whole did not support the deregulation that began in the 90s.

That is another reason we are in such trouble financially today as a country. It was not our idea to take the eye off corporations and let them have their merry way with our country as they took our jobs overseas.

Molly Ivins spoke out on this in the 90s.

“AUSTIN - Watch the House pass a bad bill. Watch the Senate make it worse. Watch the banking industry dig its own grave. Watch supposedly smart people set up a financial disaster. Can we see President Clinton veto this mess? Veto, Clinton, veto.

.."In May, the House passed (by one vote) a bill to eliminate barriers between banks, brokerage firms and insurance companies. This sets up financial holding companies that can offer all three types of services simultaneously. The most obvious risk is that a blunder in the insurance or brokerage end of the business could bring down a bank, putting insured deposits at risk. The taxpayers, of course, then wind up with the tab, as we did with the savings-and-loan mess.

.."The purpose of this bill, long sought by the financial industry, is to legalize such mergers as the proposed Citicorp-Travelers Insurance mega-merger. Many experts believe the effect will be the emergence of nine or ten enormous institutions after the consolidation of hundreds of insurance companies, banks and brokerage firms. Even before this consequence comes to pass, it is apparent that the bill will harm consumers. Last week - on a straight party-line vote of 12-10 in the Senate Banking Committee, all the Republicans against all the Democrats - consumer protections were stripped out of the bill….


There was no veto.

Those of us on "the left" did not cause the bankruptcies and foreclosures that are looming. The ones who chose to vote for the bankruptcy bill are the problem. Our Democrats who are denying help to homeowners are the problem.

That is what Nancy Pelosi told fellow Democrats in a private meeting in September.

Pelosi's comments

Pelosi told fellow Democrats during a closed-door meeting that the idea of letting judges rewrite mortgages to help bankrupt homeowners avoid foreclosure won't be a part of the emergency legislation. That provision, pushed by several Democrats, would be a deal-breaker for Republicans whose votes are needed to pass the measure, she said, according to lawmakers at the meeting.


The bill that granted retroactive immunity for wiretapping...it may be the final straw that keeps the Bush administration from being investigated and charged with crimes of spying on our citizens.

Coalition of 27 groups opposed the FISA bill

What the bill will do.

The bill would authorize massive warrantless surveillance.

The bill would require no individualized warrant even when an American’s communications clearly are of interest to the government.

The bill would curtail effective judicial review of surveillance.

The bill would grant retroactive immunity for wrongdoing.

The bill would not provide a reasonable sunset.


We on "the left" worked very hard to keep our Democrats from voting for this bill this year. It passed anyway. We were right, they were wrong...again.

The media and the DC Democrats and strategists will continue to paint "the left", the progressives in a bad light. It is what they do.

We have a new president now, who must somehow manage to work through and undo if possible much of the damage done.

He needs those of us on "the left" as a counterpoint to those he will hear from in the bubble of the White House. He's a good man, but he will need us to speak up.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Continuing the status quo will be the greatest error of the Obama Administration.
Just removing the partisan rancor isn't enough. The entire governing mindset - evidenced by his FISA vote - must be changed.

This government needs to be changed and Obama isn't change enough.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Obama's a very good man whose job will be very hard.
This would be the very worst time for us to stop speaking out.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. Yes, now is NOT the time to remain silent.
:thumbsup:
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. Thank you, madfloridian.
Everything you said is correct. Thank you for the reminder.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. No one person is change enough..
at least none that I know of. There will be some things he might accomplish that move the pendulum ever so slightly the other way, but the real big changes that need to be done to have any serious effect, will need the voices of millions of people. There has to be serious pressure brought to bear on the members of the U.S. Congress, and the President, or why would anything change? Then again, with the way things are going...out of the ashes will come change enough..although that too will not be the change some are looking for.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. FISA vote was disappointing and then there was support
for the bailout bill... we did not have time to entertain other ideas and had to put band-aids on the Paulson plan and pass the bill.

Who could have known.

:(
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. Hardly time to breathe in between our battles....and yes, then the bailouts.
in which the companies with union workers are lectured for hours on TV...and the wall street firms are given the money freely with no strings.

It is breath taking.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
42. Yes, hardly time to breathe in between the shocks...
so I wonder where our party's plan was, because it surely was not on the shelf waiting to be implemented when the Paulson plan surfaced. The warning were there for anyone who reads some of the investment sites on the internet.

On that note I would imagine there are several views by writers who are not as welcome around these parts as they had been in the past, Naomi Klein being one of them.

:(

The auto companies need a firm plan and hearing broadcast on various television stations and the financial companies meet on the weekends in private to finalize their deals.

:shrug:





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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. I will speak up!
Doesn't matter to me what the "you shall speak nothing but praises about Obama" crowd says.

Our country will never change if we do not speak up loud and clear. Furthermore, the status quo does NOT equal change.

Another great post, mad!
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. Molly Ivins was prescient about so many of the horrors that Bush wrought...
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. She has also been prescient about so many horrors ....
....the "Centrist Democrats" have wrought.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent post, Madflo.
Edited on Wed Dec-03-08 10:23 PM by bertman
www.change.gov

keep those emails, phone calls, and letters flowing, lefties. It's our only hope.


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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. As usual, we were right and conservatives -- I'm sorry, "centrists" -- were wrong.
NT!

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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. The DLC, "centrist democrat" faction hasn't been right about anything
they're just "nicer" repukes.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Yes, it was the DLC of Clinton's Administration that set-up the SYSTEMATIC fleecing of Wall Street.


Throughout the 1990s Congress systematically starved the SEC to the point where the securities cops could barely do their jobs.

America Robbed Blind exposes the root causes of the accounting scandals that wiped out $500 billion worth of investments in U.S. stocks. It explains how a series of seemingly minor Congressional actions--from a law penalizing corporations for paying salaries in excess of $1 million to a Senate vote to scuttle a rule calling for the expensing of stock options--created the conditions that led to the accounting abuses that eroded investor confidence among the 95 million Americans who own stocks.

One of the reasons that ethically challenged corporations were able to fool investors for so long is that most Americans don’t have the time to sift through mountains of corporate filings or detailed financial reports laden with accounting jargon and legalese. In simple, explanatory prose, America Robbed Blind makes it easy to understand the fraud that occurred in recent years and proposes several reforms to ensure that these abuses never occur again.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
40. The Smiling Face of Fascism - that is what Clinton's term turned out to be for this country.
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 08:12 PM by blm
It set up the Aggressive Fascism of the last 8 years.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. Well
.... the left IS considered to be an enemy of the state, and sometimes we are, considering the state of the state.

There being many things that need to be changed about the state, we need to keep on pushing.
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you -- we need much more work like this.
There needs to be someone keeping score -- on politicians, pundits, and others, and the various organizations they're affiliated with.

We should not be forced to continue to give hearing to those who have been consistently wrong; and we can't afford to continue not to hear from those who have been right.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. There's a lot of this info scattered around DU....but hard to find when needed.
We do need to keep track. They won't think they need us for 4 more years, but the mid term elections are coming up....
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
13. What could I possibly add? When you're right you're right
We're on a highway to hell whether it's the Republicans or the Centrist Dems in charge. The DLC types just drive a bit slower.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. Like slowing peeling off the band-aid:
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
14. We need you in the upcoming administration.
Enlist the aid of Kucinich in getting there?
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kelly4hope Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Good post
Though, I think change will come for the better. : )
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
19. That war was over oil, war profiteering, vengeance and spite.
The war was based on lies while the truth was continually snuffed out and our democratic process in waging war was totally undermined, it smelled like skunk then and it still smells like skunk.

We could have nuked Iraq a thousand times over and anybody with a lick of common sense knows that, we knew it and Saddam Hussein knew it.

The Bush Administration outed one of our own covert CIA Agents and by extension her company whose job it was to monitor nuclear weapons, so can anyone actually believe WMDs is or was a major issue with them other than for political purposes?

Thanks for the thread, madfloridian.:thumbsup:
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ksimons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
20. great analysis - thanks for posting this

amazing how much can go wrong when the big picture is ignored for so long
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Big picture to them was ignoring the base and getting big money in its place
From The American Prospect:

SNIP..."The DLC's effort to win Meeks's vote was part of a vigorous campaign by New Democrats to assure legislators that business groups would replace campaign contributions from labor lost by a pro-business China vote. In The New Democrat, the DLC's monthly magazine, Washington's most powerful business lobbyist, Thomas J. Donohue of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, wrote that even though some members of Congress risked losing the AFL-CIO's support, "business will stick by Democrats on the China trade vote."

SNIP..."Simon Rosenberg, the former field director for the DLC who directs the New Democrat Network, a spin-off political action committee, says, "We're trying to raise money to help them lessen their reliance on traditional interest groups in the Democratic Party. In that way," he adds, "they are ideologically freed, frankly, from taking positions that make it difficult for Democrats to win."
(Rosenberg ran for DNC chair in 2005)

SNIP..."Privately funded and operating as an extraparty organization without official Democratic sanction, calling themselves "New Democrats," the DLC sought nothing less than the miraculous: the transubstantiation of America's oldest political party. Though the DLC painted itself using the palette of the liberal left--as "an effort to revive the Democratic Party's progressive tradition," with New Democrats being the "trustees of the real tradition of the Democratic Party"--its mission was far more confrontational. With few resources, and taking heavy flak from the big guns of the Democratic left, the DLC proclaimed its intention, Mighty Mouse–style, to rescue the Democratic Party from the influence of 1960s-era activists and the AFL-CIO, to ease its identification with hot-button social issues, and, perhaps most centrally, to reinvent the party as one pledged to fiscal restraint, less government, and a probusiness, pro–free market outlook.

It's hard to argue that they haven't succeeded...."



http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=4706
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
21. K&R
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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
22. I would add single-payer health care to the list
On Iraq, the timidity of some Congressional Democrats can be explained in purely political terms. At the time of the vote on the IWR, the public had been inflamed by Bush's propaganda, so opposing the march to war might have been risky. (I'm not saying Dems should cast an immoral vote just to save their own skins, but you can understand the temptation.)

On health care, though, polls consistently show that the MAJORITY of Americans are out to the left, where only Dennis Kucinich and a few others on Capitol Hill dare to go.

On this issue, it's even harder to excuse their behavior.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
23. K&R! Thanks, madfloridian! You've nailed it again.
You'll probably be mocked by the usual suspects, but deep inside even they know you're right. Keep speaking truth to power!
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
24. The problem is that we are continually being sold out by a bunch of
liars, thieves, and sleezeballs that call themselves dems but are nothing more than republicans with their hands out looking out for only themselves. Many so called 'dems' have made out like bandits on the bush** administration and their crimes. The two biggest names that pop into my mind are John Kerry (he's made more money off investments that are tied to the 'war' in Iraq than any other Senator or Congressperson AND the ever corrupt Diane Feinstein who, along with her hubby Richard, has her fingers in every pie in Washington D.C.

<snip>

Senator John Kerry, the Democrat from Massachusetts who staked his 2004 presidential bid in part on his opposition to the war, tops the list of investors. His holdings in firms with Pentagon contracts of at least five million dollars stood at between 28.9 million dollars and 38.2 million dollars as of Dec. 31, 2006. Kerry sits on the Senate foreign relations panel.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/81915/

<snip>

And they talk about Hillary Clinton and 'conflict of interest'.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
25. Great post
and true as can be. And you are not alone when you say Obama will need us to speak up, Obama says the exact same thing. The silence is golden crowd is wrong.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
26. K & R
And :applause: for not being a Good Ger, er, I mean, Democrat.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
27. Madfloridian:
I think, that many of those DC insiders have that jet fighter mentality. They get hefty campaign donations from wealthy people, which gives those well-funded heels, the right to crawl in the cockpit with them where they have access to push the buttons. Then after they devastate the country side, the insiders fly back to their Ivory DC towers, not caring about the damage they left behind. Maybe Democrats are trashing Republican suburbs, the way that Republicans are trashing Democratic urban areas when they're in power? And maybe they forget that not all things are black or white?
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
30. You damned LEFTIST IDEALOGUE!
Sorry, couldn't resist... :D
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. That's ok.
:D

Meaning understood.

The right wing did a number on those words, didn't they? So bad that our own party is fearful of them.

I have been looking for the info about how Gingrich started the destruction of certain words like liberal.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
31. And I forgot the caving in to offshore drilling....
Dems push for offshore drilling

"Democratic leaders showed varying degrees of interest Wednesday in opening up new areas for oil production, as public opinion veers in favor of drilling. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) told reporters that expanded offshore drilling, which the Republicans have long supported, is not off the table. He said he opposes giving the states the right to choose whether to drill off their coasts, but also said Democrats are “taking a look at that.”

“I’m not knee-jerk-opposed to anything,” Reid said. “We’re willing to work; we haven’t shut our minds to anything.”

Also:

"There is an effort that’s going on among members to try to … put together something that makes sense and is balanced,” Natural Resources Energy Subcommittee Chairman Jim Costa, D-Calif., said. Costa was one of 19 Democrats, predominately from oil and gas producing districts, who voted against a “use-it-or-lose it” plan sponsored by Democratic leaders shortly before the Independence Day recess.

House Democratic leaders as early as next week intend to bring that plan up again as part of a larger package emphasizing more production in areas where it is allowed to counter repeated calls from GOP leaders to expand access to new areas.

Many Democrats from oil and gas producing areas — including those opposing “use-it-or-lose-it” — agree with Republicans on opening up areas for drilling."

MEANWHILE:

"While the U.S. oil industry wants access to more federal lands to help reduce reliance on foreign suppliers, U.S.-based companies are shipping record amounts of gasoline and diesel fuel to other countries.

A record 1.6 million barrels a day in U.S. refined petroleum products were exported during the first four months of this year, up 33 percent from 1.2 million barrels a day over the same period in 2007. Shipments this February topped 1.8 million barrels a day for the first time during any month, according to final numbers from the Energy Department."

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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
34. Only 4 things, madfloridian?
From my experience watching politics these past 28 years, the left is almost always right on almost every issue.

Of course, you did a great job explaining just four of the ways the left has been right recently. I just wanted to point out that the left has been right in many, many more ways over the past 28 years (and longer, truth be told).

As Mark Shields said, "A conservative is someone who agrees with liberal policy twenty years after it becomes law."

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
66. A whole lot more.
I have lots more to come....hard to get it altogether in one post.

:hi:

There is way too much we have played nice about. Yes, we are usually right and the party usually moves the other way.

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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. When was the last time you heard a Republican arguing ...
... that Blacks should not be allowed in the military, or that women should be denied the right to vote, or that children should be allowed to work in factories, or that the minimum wage should be abolished, or ...

Of course, I am preaching to the choir, and I know you get the point, but we must not forget that conservatives, at the time, argued against each and every one of those policies while we on the left fought (and sometimes died) to make the world a better place for all Americans which, Republicans now admit, we did.

It's frustrating that certain powerful Democrats argued against us during the Clinton administration and actively assisted the other side, but the democratic wing of the Democratic party was right then (about NAFTA, about deregulation, and about a host of other issues) just as we're right now, and as Bush's disastrous rule clearly demonstrated.

It would have been nice had our party leaders followed their base while they were in power. Let's hope they have learned their lessons.

Again, nice work. :toast:

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
35. knr
great post.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
37. Bravo!!
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
38. one of the best posts..ever
thanks!

:applause:
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
39. If you've ever studied Greek mythology, you know the story of Cassandra
the prophetess who was put under a very interesting curse: She would be 100% accurate in her prophecies, but no one would ever believe her.

I've felt like Cassandra for, oh, nearly thirty years now.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
41. Among the many things that need to change, DEREGULATION.
And needs to be done with the utmost urgency. Stop these bastards from skippin' out on TAXES by moving headquarters to tax-exempt countries. Pepsico, Xerox, Haliburton, to name a few.
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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
43. The best post since I've been here. Thank you, madfloridian.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
44. "we had given Iraqis the gift of freedom"
Before we invaded, Iraqi women were educated, and many had the freedom to be professionals.

Less important, but just as telling, Iraqi women had freedom in how they dressed.

NOW, women must toe the line, stay under their husband's thumb, and are barred from education and important jobs.... maybe most can't have jobs at all.

Yet, the Clintons, feminists tho they are, insist "we gave Iraqis the gift of freedom."

Just what "freedom" would that be???? :grr:
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. That would be the freedom to let ancient religous bigotry run rampant.
From what I gathered reading Riverbend, Iraq had largely gotten over a lot of the really nasty sectarianism and the US invasion and subsequent occupation let the evil back out of Pandora's box.

That's just one young lady's view, but she seemed to have her head screwed on very straight indeed.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. You're right. And while I suppose the freedom to believe in bigotry should be accepted,
what's happened is that we FORCED it on women who were previously more free.

then to go around patting ourselves on the back for having "Given The Gift Of Freedom" is EVIL itself!

This month I won't be attending our library book club because the book chosen is about how bad the Muslim women have it. I said I couldn't attend and NOT speak about how we screwed over the Iraqi women! Just bemoaning and looking down on those "poor women" without recognizing our part in it sickens me.

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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #64
67. Why not speak out, if only briefly?
People should be made aware of what is really going on, getting people out of their comfort zones is essential.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Because I chose my battles. I speak out on poverty, which MOST don't seem to care about.
I"ll speak out on that again in February, for the book that's scheduled for that month.

If I had more support on poverty, I could spread myself more broadly.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
45. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. You think all of us are "whiny bastards"? Really?
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. I think I am dumber for having read that
Have you even noticed how the Centrist Dem types have been voting for the past 8 years? Blaming the Left for Iraq is one of the most inane things I have ever heard.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. I guess it's okay to call us "whiny bastards"
It's sure lowers the discourse here.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. You have to hold the DLC just as accountable for the 2000 result as Nader.
They insisted that the Democratic ticket make no effort to address the issues that drove the Nader campaign that year. They were adamant that the party remain what it had been since 1992: a party in which activists and rank-and-file grassroots types had no say and ceo's and big donors were treated like gods who walked the Earth.

What happened that year was what had to happened when you insisted on treating good people who weren't to blame for any of the party's problems as the enemy and did all you could to drive them away.

And, of course, it wasn't the fault of Green voters that year that the Dems didnt' defend the disenfranchised black voters of Florida. Or that Gore also couldn't win his own state.

Step up to the plate and admit that 2000 was half your fault. You have no right to put all the blame for that year on the Nader voters. They should have come back, but people like you did everything you could to make that a bridge too far for them.


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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #51
59. Nader had absolurtely nothing to do with the dem loss. Proven many times
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #45
60. You name dropper. you. What twisted unsupported bullshit. No whinning please.
Democrat bashing???hahahahahaha. Name one thing of importance the dems 'leaders' didn't give Bush when he asked for it the past 8yrs. Go read some Greenwald archives and get caught up. We've had a dem party in name only. Certainly not an opposition party. Even Gore realized the best thing that could have happened to him was deciding to get out of politics so he could do some real work. The right spent millions trying to destroy the Clintons and get the left to demonize Nader by mocking him. Yet most dems couldn't tell you a damn thing Nader stands for. The best they can come up with is some republican sound bytes to belittle and mock him. He attempts to keep a national anti corporate voice and really hasn't the slightest interest in being president. Michael Moore...oppressive??? hahahahaha. Who has he oppressed...the wealthy?? It is you who comes off as insane and repressed by those ridiculous unsupported comments.

Make Bush seem moderate compared to Gore??? are you kidding...the left did that. Don't get much light where you live or what? Geez...the anger turned to barking at the left.
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
50. A Fool Is Someone That Believes A Repeating Pattern Of Behavior Ever Leads To Change
eom
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
52. k
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
53. Damn. I thought it was worship Obama no matter what around here
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Like people had shut down their critical thinking abilities or something
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. How can Obama know what we want if we don't make it known.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Many of our dem leaders have stopped listening to us or sell us short.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. If our elected leaders don't represent us then we will replace them also.
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Good post. Glad to see many are keeping theri eyes open now.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. Exactly.
We may not be heard after all, but we need to try.
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tclambert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
61. I only count three.
Support for Iraq War. Deregulation. Warrantless wiretapping. Where's the fourth?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Bankruptcy bill which took away protections for elderly and sick.
It's there .
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patriotvoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
63. Freedom is not a gift to be given. Freedom is an existence earned through bloodshed.
We cannot rid people of their tyrants. Even if we topple the current tyrant, another will swoop in to fill the vacuum. The people must revolt, overthrow, and resist further tyranny. Apathy is the only thing that will bring the tyrants back.

And if we're not careful -- here at home -- we'll have our own tyrants. Perhaps we already do.

I, for one, do not welcome our Legislative overlords.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #63
69. Not to be too techinical, but ...
I'd be thrilled with some legislative overlords.

It's the executive overlord we've had for the past eight years that frightens me. Our legislative branch abdicated its Constitutional power and betrayed the American people over the past eight years and enabled the tyrant.

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth
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patriotvoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. Yes, overlords in absentia.
They're like foreign kings who let the local barony run the place.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
72. DFH...a kick for us.
A kick for us who are called anything but Democrats, and who are shunned by our own party.
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