Citizenship 2.0 (DU mentioned)

[Number23]

Danielle Allen for The Washington Post

Interesting article on the future of politics in a web-based culture.

From the article, located here:

"Notably, the right has adopted the Wikipedia method more consistently than the left. MoveOn employs the top-down structure, as does the Huffington Post. Daily Kos blends the grass-roots and hierarchical methods. Democratic Underground copied Free Republic's grass-roots approach, but with less powerful architecture. One can't help wondering whether the right's more successful use of such self-organizing systems reflects the concrete impact of libertarian ideology."

Enjoy. :)

[DireStrike]

1. More successful?

Hah.

[Number23]

6. They may be dumb as toadstools. And mentally unhinged. And illiterate

But they do seem to be fairly organized over at Free Republic. That Gathering of Eagles crap started by member Kristinn has been stirring up mess seemingly forever.

And they are forever coordinating members to protest something using the FR web site.

[DireStrike]

10. Aren't they the ones notorious for NEVER being able to organize protests

always get a tiny smattering of members, if any.

[Number23]

11. LOL A tiny smattering of Freepers is more than enough.

Alot of crazy gets packed per Freeper. Remember the screaming idiots at the McCain rallies? I'm willing to bet that easily 1/3 of them had accounts on Free Republic.

[Starry Messenger]

12. Huh. You may have missed their internet EPIC FAIL.

I documented it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7641746

:)

[SpiralHawk]

19. That's because Freepers are, by definition, a Flock O' Frightened Followers

Scare them, then tell them what to do. And they follow along, a mindless, easily programmed feckless flock.

DU is, on the other hand, populated by individuals who know how to think for themselves. The Frightened Flock mentality of Homelanderism gets no traction here.

Flock O' Frightened Freeper Followers:

[BrklynLiberal]

2. FR preceded DU?

[Number23]

3. Heck yeah

FR preceded DU?

Free Republic has been around since Clinton's second terms. There are members there with 10 year memberships. Puts the DU'ers crowing about 3 or 4 years here to shame. :)

[patrice]

4. "less powerful architecture"? Which board is easier for more people to navigate and, hence,

produces more membership and activity? I'm gonna guess it's DU.

[JDPriestly]

14. Which side elected a president this year? We effectively use the internet.

We are just a little better educated about it.

[patrice]

18. We are also more articulate and have better communication skils. nt

[hfojvt]

28. I think FR may have a larger membership

I think DKos does too. I'd like to see some stats.

[Deja Q]

31. Yeah, but everyone knows men on DU have the largest members of them all.

:woohoo:

[Deja Q]

30. I've read both forums and I too am baffled by "less powerful architecture".

Unless they mean the inverse; the DU software requiring more CPU power as it organizes threads in a tree format rather than one chronological lump...

[Swamp Rat]

HAHAHAHA!!!!

:rofl:

[Dragonfli]

5. Less Powerful Architecture?

What do they mean that sweet interface of theirs?

[Number23]

8. The part about the "less powerful architecture" made no sense to me either

DU has every one of the bells and whistles at Free Republic, including the ability to send private messages. She may be referring to the general layout of individual discussion threads, but I'm not sure.

I think DU's gui is much more pleasing to the eye but perhaps from a purely technical perspective, FR is superior. Have no idea how.

ETA: Perhaps she's talking about the ability to "ping" members as one component of superior architecture. That's just about the only thing I can think of that FR has that DU doesn't.

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. I think it's this bit she means:

"The site's discussion lists -- which have global reach -- are fed by participants and connected by those participants to a plethora of state message boards organizing real-time, boots-on-the-ground political action."

I can't say I've seen anything like that there, but I don't spend a lot of time looking at that board (between the lunatic messages on it, and the awful presentation, it's a threat to ones sanity). But maybe they do manage to copy talking points from it to local message boards. DUers are less likely to want to parrot elsewhere what they read here, I'd say. Freepers do still seem keen on standing at street corners with a stupid sign, and posting a photo of it on the board - that may be the 'boots-on-the-ground political action'.

I don't frequent state message boards either (I'm British); but I can say that on a British discussion forum I'm on, open to all shades of politics, it is notable that the far right BNP (racist) party are infamous for copying their party's talking points and using it to attack other parties (to the extent that the mods had to ban their incessant copying of BNP press releases), while supporters of other parties, even the centre-right Conservatives, do actually think for themselves, and are willing to criticise their own party.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that FR is the American equivalent of the BNP.

[Number23]

23. Thanks for that, Muriel

That's some good info.

Now, I do know that DU does have "state" forums and even "country" forums, but like you, I have never visited them. But I'm pretty sure that DU's state boards would be used in much the same way as FR's boards are - to coordinate protests or even just a meet n' greet. I'm guessing though that the author of this article must have visited these forums and come to the conclusion that FR is much better organized at using its local forums for grassroots efforts.

And I think you hit the nail on the head with your theory that because Freepers have excelled at parroting talking points and doing what they're told, that this could explain their "success" at using FR to spread their message. Good to know that this far-right groupthink phenomena is not just confined to the States. :)

[JVS]

7. Is she smoking crack. Unless she's saying that the libertarian ideology makes for cheap and easy...

interfaces that she calls powerful.

[Triana]

9. "less powerful architecture?" WTF?

FreepPigShitLick sucks!

I think maybe Danielle ought to run for Veep for Dingbat Palin in 2012. The vacuum-packed Bobsie Twins. Pffft! Both of them ought to shut their mouths about stuff they know nothing about. They're just making themselves look like - dingbats.

[nc4bo]

17. #2. Less powerful architecture?! WTF is THAT supposed to mean??

Freeperville is one of the ugliest, shittiest-ly run websites I have EVER seen in my life.

And the members suck too.

[Triana]

20. It's butt-ugly. Between the piss-poor design and the illiteracy, it's damn near impossible ...

...to read. Egh.

[JDPriestly]

13. Move-On puts things to a vote. I don't think it is that top-down.

Huffington Post is essentially a magazine that tries to be more. Daily Kos is pretty grass-roots.

I think the Washington Post article is confused by the relative intelligence exhibited on liberal blogs. A lot of the comments have a professional feel when in fact the writers are not professional journalists or even professional bloggers.

The right-wing blogs may seem less hierarchical because the contributors are less well educated. You don't have to be a moran to be grass-roots.

[Number23]

15. Bear in mind that this is the same Danielle Allen

who exposed Free Republic as the source of those idiotic lies about Obama being a Muslim. I'm sure she's working on the "he's not a citizen!1" stuff too.

She ain't no slouch when it comes to the Internets.... at least on the technical nuts and bolts side...

[Triana]

21. At least they've (the lame$tream media) publicized where the LIES came from...

...about Obama- Freeperville, of course. They are not a credible source of info - and of course they know that - but the sheeple who read their crap - their "viral" emails - don't, and they happily gulp it down whole.

They know their candidates cannot win on issues so they resort to character assassination and smears - the elephants only know ONE trick. And that's it. It's been that way since the inception of the party.

[tired]

22. This was on the main FR page today.

Roots of Defeat: Let us study, and emulate, the Left’s online tactics

The four-year ascent of Barack Obama from state senator to president marks not just the triumph of a man, but the coming of age of a movement.

That movement belongs to liberal (or “progressive”) Democrats, who in less than a decade have remade themselves. Once respected only in academia and the news media, they have become a fighting force. They systemically digitized the means of political organization and strategy, with the ultimate goal of dominating the political system — “Crush their spirits!” was Daily Kos blogger Markos Moulitsas Zuniga’s pre-election rallying cry.

The Left’s online movement is consciously modeled after the Goldwater-and-Reagan-era conservative movement. To those trying to build the Left, the vast right-wing conspiracy was an object not of scorn, but of admiration. They studied the Right’s network of think tanks, issue groups, and talk-show hosts, looking for clues on how to push a message with brutal efficiency. They took these lessons to heart and shaped them to fit the web. Ironically, today’s Right has much to learn from them.

The Left has created not just a collection of unshaven bloggers but a machine that beat the Right at its own game.











http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2138075/posts

[Number23]

24. Wow. That's alot of truth wrapped up in alot of breathless paranoia.

Though it's interesting that this article is the complete opposite of the one written by Danielle Allen. The National Review article says its the Dems that have the stronger online networks (specifically mentioning ThinkProgress) while Allen says it's the repubs.

Good read. Thanks for posting.

[bemildred]

25. Some sound points, some Alice-in-Wonderlandy stuff.

I am guessing she is focused on web sites as political organizing entities, which is not what DU fundamentally is, so maybe that is why she does not see us as I do. I see DU as primarily a news and discussion site oriented to "progressives", not as an attempt to organize and seize power, unlike the others she mentions. I do not go to DU to look for something to do, though I can find that here. I assume the "less powerful architecture" is aimed at that issue, and it mistakes the purpose of DU.


But hey, we are a major internet site now.

[Number23]

27. Interesting

I see DU as primarily a news and discussion site oriented to "progressives", not as an attempt to organize and seize power, unlike the others she mentions.

But I think that fact that DU has an Activist Corp may go against your idea that DU is just a news and information site. I think that there is a definite form of grassroots political action on DU. It may not be as strong or as coordinated as it is on Daily Kos, but I do believe that DU is taking a more active role in furthering the progressive agenda.

[bemildred]

29. A matter of emphasis, it seems to me.

You can find things to do at DU, but that is not the original and abiding function of DU. And DU serves a role that is necessary, but it is not the role of DKos or HuffingtonPost or the like. And I am all for DU serving other purposes, we can talk about anything we like here. But communication and cogitation are as important, in their way, as organization. It is not enough to do something, you have to do the right thing, and to do that, you have to talk about it, discuss it, examine it, and question it.

Of course, the owners of DU really decide, I'm just expressing my views.

[Number23]

32. Right

But communication and cogitation are as important, in their way, as organization.

And all I'm saying is that the fact that DU has an Activist Corp created by the owners and admins of this site suggests to me that the site's purpose is more than "communication and cogitation."

I would not be surprised one bit if the DU Activist Corp was just the beginning of a more coordinated effort on DU's part to play a role in progressive activism. I think alot of people would welcome that.

[bemildred]

33. I have no problem with that.

As long as it comes from the bottom up.
:thumbsup:

[DS1]

26. pure fucking speculation