I have to say, I'm not understanding this gay thing one little bit.

[kayakjohnny]

I'm a 52 year old male. Not married nor have I ever been. But I just don't see how it would threaten me in the least to know that two people of the same gender would or could share my covenant or creed or vow with each other, and most certainly the legal status that I would enjoy, and have it be a huge hang-up for me. What could it possibly take away from me and my partner or wife or lover?

Just what business is this of mine? What, exactly, is up? Where does the threat actually emerge? Will it diminish the institution? How? Am I so insecure about my own marriage or the sanctity of the premise, the concept, the process? Just where does the fear come in? Are my kids going to grow up confused? That would assume that they can't think for themselves. Do legally recognized gay couples take one single thing away from me? How so? Is their love any less important or true or deep or strong than mine?

I'm seeing a real weakness in the detractors. Surely, they are well aware of the stats showing how many traditional marriages can and do fail. So then, we can't use the sanctity issue there, can we? What is it? We can progress through time on so many other important sociological issues, but this one is such a hot button. And sticking point. Even abortion doesn't seem as fiery as this right now. Or even the war for god's sake.

So maybe someone can explain to me just what is going on here. Is this something that's been drummed up out of the blue to divide people? Is this all about religion? What am I missing? Thanks for your time.

[wtbymark]

1. freaks on the fringe bullying their neighbors through fear

using religion as a tool, they scare the bajezus out of anyone who will lend them an ear.

[kayakjohnny]

3. Damn, what an answer.

I've never been a person who was bothered by how others lived, unless they were hurting someone. And I just don't see that here. This must be such a huge letdown for gays, especially at a time when one big hurdle of repression was finally cleared. And now this. Doesn't make much sense to me.

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

14. You know

the Bible teaches that we should not pass judgement on one another. It is OK to disagree but it is not our place to condemn each other.

I think the argument needs to be reframed. I don't think people against Prop 8 have done a good job of explaining their view.

I mean I am against homosexuality but it is not my business how others choose to live their lives as long as it does not violate my rights.

And Gov't should not be allowed in the bedrooms of private citizens.

[Flying Dream Blues]

19. You're against something people are born to be? Because if you believe

people choose to be homosexual, please do some research and talk to people who are gay, and you'll find out the truth. And if you believe people are born gay, I sure hope you aren't against it, because that is pure bigotry, and you don't sound like that kind of person.

With no animosity, just a desire to help you understand.
Peace.

[MtUpWithWngsAsEgles]

21. Truth is...

I once believed it was a choice. And for some I still do. People try a lot of things out of curiosity.

Then I had a discussion with a straight friend and he reminded me of a childhood friend we grew up with. This friend was well known to be gay for as long as we could remember. And we knew him as a child.

I think you misunderstand me. I am NO bigot. Just because I don't support homosexuality does not make me a bigot. I could care less about how others live their lives as long as they are not infringing on my rights. Homosexuality does not hurt me. However, I believe in having partners of the opposite sex.

As far as Prop 8 type legislation, I am against it because as i understand it, it is not just about homosexuality. It is about equal rights.

[PDJane]

2. It's about, specifically, a brand of religion.

It's about the kind of fundmentalist Christian religion and about Islamist religions.

Not, please note, all Christianity nor all of Islam. The Reichwing seized upon it as another way to divide people; the us and them mentality. They're really, really good at making themselves the victim, and "the gays" and "the war on Christmas" and "the Liberals" are all going to take their Christian country away, y'see.

It is, in other words, brainwashing of a particularly pernicious sort.

[Recursion]

24. The thing is, marriage inequality has much broader support than most fundie ideas

Hell, John Edwards is in the "civil unions but don't call it marriage" camp (has he been savaged yet on the board today?)

As long as we use marriage, the apex of patriarchal concepts, as our gold-standard of valid relationships, so long will we have these problems.

[BrklynLiberal]

4. The RW fundie zealots use religion as a crowbar into people's politics.

They use homosexuality, gay marriage, abortion, unimplanted fertilized eggs, creationism vs evolution, adherents to any religion but their own, and anything else they can make up....

They are very similar to the witch doctor's in primitive tribes who conjure up horrors and "voodoo" to terrify the people into doing what he says.

[Booster]

5. As one Christian lady explained it to me "we have to stop this

because in the future our children will grow up and choose to be gay", to which I replied 'that's
pure bullshit". Doesn't say much for their marriage I'd say.

[gollygee]

7. That's exactly what I hear fundies say too

That if their kids even know that homosexuality exists, but particularly if kids see it normalized or considered OK at all, that kids will choose to be gay. It's about their own kids and grandkids, and fears that those kids will be gay. And if one does become gay, they think it's because the kid saw an openly gay person on TV, not because it's just the natural state for that kid.

People are stupid about this issue. Well, a lot of issues but particularly with this issue common sense, science, all that kind of stuff just gets thrown out the window.

[Why Syzygy]

16. That's it. Their children.

They think it's contagious. Very ignorant people.

[kevinbgoode]

17. She doesn't sound like a "Christian" to me. . .more like a charlatan

We have to learn to stop calling these people "Christians" simply because they like to use it to hide their petty prejudices behind. There is nothing "Christian" about bearing false witness. You can always do something like this:

"Oh...well, I thought you were a Christian"

Her: "Oh, I am! This is the Christian thing to do."

You: "Uh-huh. Try pulling that scam on someone who might believe you."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. The fundie anti-gay mindset requires that nobody be allowed to do something

that *they* consider to be "sinful." It doesn't matter that allowing gay couples to marry does them no actual, identifiable harm. Being gay, to them, is bad, evil, sinful and wrong in the first place; and letting gay people enter into a relationship that is actually sanctioned by the state just encourages and legitimizes that sinfulness. Of course, prohibiting gay people from being legally married won't make them straight -- but the fundies don't like it that being gay could ever be accepted by society.

And if you ask me, this crowd spends way too much time obsessing over other people's sex lives, which suggests that they have some issues of their own. Mean, sad, stupid people.

[kayakjohnny]

8. Sex lives, and lives in general it seems.

There's a lot they don't want others doing and this is just one of them. It must go back to the power thing, and I just don't get it.

[Barack_America]

9. It's like abortion. Just another tool the Religious Right uses to gain more power.

Tell lies, drum up fear and use the resulting paranoia to further your own political influence.

Lather, rinse, repeat. It's always the same with them.

[defendandprotect]

13. ...thru lies + distortion, propaganda --

[Skittles]

10. I've never understood it either

I just never cared at all if two guys wanted to be together, or two gals - and the angst I see about it just mystifies me no end

[kayakjohnny]

11. Thank all of you for responding. I'm not part of this issue, other than as a confused

observer. I have no particular agenda in the outcome, other than the same sense of fairness that I want for people across the board. I appreciate all of your answers because I really am trying to get a pulse on this (like I do on a lot of things), but this one is particularly befuddling because it seems to have a missing logic component that I haven't been able to assimilate just yet. Thanks again for your time.

[defendandprotect]

12. It's simply what's left of patriarcy + organized patriarchal religious "enemies" ...

Females are still oppressed --

We just saw a new Christian Crusade .. this time on Muslims --

And the Vatican is turning to Evangelicism --

We shsll overcome, someday --???

[MisterP]

15. a big part of the fear is that gays are seen as threatening to "turn" their kids

explaining the ominous emphasis on schools in the ads
for exmaple, the Nazis saw homosexuality as both deviant AND a developmental "stage" every male went through; the threat was thus that some men could secretly (and this is another factor) remain gay and persuade other youths into staying in that stage as well

[bobbolink]

18. It's fear and therefore PREJUDICE against the "Other".....same as with homeless people.

Vilify those who are different, so you can rest in peace that *you* won't be one.

[King Coal]

20. Please see this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4401785

[bluedawg12]

22. The basis of homophobia?

Complex.

Probably many, many answers and I bet quite a few papers have been written about it.

But the bottom line is this: It's not wether you understand gays or not, or have a visceral reaction to gays or not, it's simply a moral issue, one of fairness.

Does one believe that all people should be afforded the same rights guaranteed by the Constitution or are we going to carve out segments of society, pick and chose their rights and call them second class citizens?

[Recursion]

23. The language (inexplicable to me) is of "strengthening" marriage

I suppose the idea is it becomes "diluted" or "weakened" or something if gay couple's commitments are recognized by the same outdated, superstitious rituals. As I've said recently and been flamed for, I think marriage itself is the problem here, but I doubt we'll be solving that problem any time soon.

[renie408]

25. No, I really can't explain it, I have NEVER gotten the whole "gay marriage threatens

straight marriage" thing. It isn't like if they make gay marriage legal here, I am going to come home and tell my husband of 20 years, "Honey, I'm OUT. Since I can now marry a woman, I am off to find my female soul mate."

The only reason that I can think of to be against gay marriage is driven by religion. Many large religious institutions seem to have a lot on the line when it comes to homosexuality.