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Comparison of the 2008 and 2004 Presidential Exit Poll Discrepancies and their Significance

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:22 PM
Original message
Comparison of the 2008 and 2004 Presidential Exit Poll Discrepancies and their Significance
Edited on Wed Nov-05-08 06:38 PM by Time for change
The presidential exit poll discrepancy of 2004 generated a great deal of controversy in some quarters because it raised the suspicion of a stolen presidential election. There were two types of extreme and opposite reactions to that controversy that I believe were unhealthy to our democracy.

At one extreme were those who chose to ignore it. These were people who, if they were aware of it at all, simply felt that it wasn’t important. Probably some of these people just couldn’t bring themselves to acknowledge even the possibility that a presidential election could be stolen in our country. Or maybe many of them believed that it is “bad sportsmanship” to question the results of an election once it is officially declared final.

At the other extreme were those who felt that the 2004 exit poll deficiency was proof of unlimited power by the Republican Party to steal elections. Consequently, they believed, any traditional efforts on behalf of Democratic or other liberal political candidates is meaningless in the absence of conversion to an election system that involves nothing but hand counted paper ballots.

The reality of the situation is somewhere in between those two extremes. Large exit poll discrepancies should be taken very seriously and investigated to ascertain their cause – especially with an eye to evaluating the possibility of wide scale election fraud. But at the same time it is highly counterproductive to assume an unlimited capability of Republicans for election fraud and to abandon traditional efforts to win elections.

In this post I will briefly describe the presidential exit poll discrepancy of 2004, compare it with what we know – so far – of the presidential exit poll discrepancy of 2008, and discuss the possible reasons for and importance of gaining a better understanding of the causes of these exit poll discrepancies.


A brief description of the 2004 presidential exit poll discrepancy

The 2004 Edison-Mitofsky national exits polls predicted very different results than the official Presidential election results. Whereas Bush won the official results by 2.5%, the exit polls predicted a Kerry victory nationally by 3% – a 5.5% difference. In addition, state exit polls predicted a Kerry victory in four states that Bush won – Ohio, Iowa, New Mexico, and Nevada – and a virtually even race in Florida, which Kerry lost officially by 5%. Of these states, the difference between the exit polls and the official results (which we refer to as “exit poll discrepancy” or “red shift”) were statistically significant (beyond the margin of error) only in Ohio and Florida. In Ohio, Kerry lost officially by 2.5%, while winning the exit poll by 4.2% a difference of 6.7%. Winning either Ohio or Florida would have meant an electoral victory for Kerry. On the other hand, none of the states that Kerry carried in 2004 were predicted in the exit polls for Bush. None of this is controversial or denied by any knowledgeable person.


What we know so far about the 2008 presidential exit poll discrepancy

The Election Defense Alliance (EDA), for which I work as a volunteer, was established shortly after the 2004 Presidential election, partly (or solely) in response to what its founders perceived as a stolen Presidential election. Their perception of a stolen election was based largely (or solely) on the presidential exit poll discrepancy.

Consequently, the EDA undertook an effort yesterday to capture exit poll statistics from all major statewide races (President, Senator, and Governor) prior to “adjustment” of the statistics to match the official election results (Once the statistics are “adjusted” to match the official election results they are worthless for the purpose of assessing the exit poll discrepancy because the “adjustment” erases the discrepancy.)

I was assigned three states to monitor and document – Pennsylvania, Georgia, and North Carolina. In addition, I periodically peeked at some other results of major interest. When very early in the evening I noted large Obama exit poll leads in Virginia and Ohio, a medium sized lead in Indiana and a smaller lead in North Carolina, I was elated, believing that all this signified an almost certain Obama victory – so I posted my opinion on this. The exit poll information I had at the time was approximately the following:

Indiana: Obama by 5
Virginia: Obama by 9
Ohio: Obama by 8
North Carolina: Obama by 3
Pennsylvania: Obama by 15

Georgia: McCain by 2
National: Obama by 8.3

As it turned out later (which is not surprising), as in 2004, the Democratic Presidential candidate performed substantially better in exit polls than in the official vote count:

Official vote margin and discrepancy between exit poll and official vote count
Indiana: Obama by 1; exit poll discrepancy of 4
Virginia: Obama by 5; exit poll discrepancy of 4
Ohio: Obama by 4; exit poll discrepancy of 4
North Carolina: Obama by 0; exit poll discrepancy of 3
Pennsylvania: Obama by 11; exit poll discrepancy of 4
Georgia: McCain by 5; exit poll discrepancy of 3
National: Obama by 6.1; exit poll discrepancy of 2.2

Most of these exit poll discrepancies are beyond the margin of error or very close to the margin of error. That national exit poll discrepancy, though smaller than the others, is well beyond the margin of error because the sample size is much larger than for the state polls.

What all this means is that, as in 2004, the Democratic candidate performed much better in exit polls than in the official vote count, and the difference was especially large in critical swing states.


Possible reasons for discrepancies between exit polls and official vote counts

When exit polls differ substantially from official election results, there can be only three reasons (or combination thereof):
1. Random error, or chance
2. Biased polls
3. Impaired election integrity

The first step in the assessment of any statistical discrepancy is to assess the role of chance in producing the discrepancy. The likelihood of the discrepancy between the 2004 national exit polls and the 2004 official national results occurring by chance was estimated by Jonathan Simon and Ron Baiman as being close to one in a million. The original response to the Edison-Miftofsky report by US Count Votes (USCV) estimated that the likelihood of the discrepancy between the combined state exit polls and the official state results occurring by chance was about one in ten million. A proper combined likelihood of such a large discrepancy in both the national and state polls would multiply those two numbers, to give a result of one in ten trillion. Although the exact number can be and has been computed in different ways by different investigators, nobody, including Warren Mitofsky, disputed the fact that the likelihood of this discrepancy occurring by chance is so small that it should not even be considered.

In 2008 the exit poll discrepancy was considerably smaller than in 2004, but it was still well outside the margin of error. I won’t calculate an exact number, since we don’t have all the data yet. But it’s safe to say that the difference is very unlikely to be explained by chance alone. The fact that pre-election polls provided an estimate very similar to the exit polls in 2008 (The Obama lead was a little bit less in the pre-election polls, but it was surging upwards in the last couple of days, so probably the two were about equivalent) makes it even more likely that they were both accurate.

So that leaves two possibilities: Exit poll bias (and pre-election poll bias as well) or impaired election integrity – that is, election fraud.


Then why did Obama win if election fraud was committed?

First of all, let me say that I don’t know for a fact that election fraud is the primary explanation for the exit poll discrepancies, either this year or in 2004. The issue was extensively investigated in 2004, and the results were not fully conclusive either way. Two possible reasons why the results were not fully conclusive were that: 1) Independent voter activist organizations were not provided access to all of the raw data, and 2) Nobody was provided access to the “proprietary” voting machines.

But let’s assume for a minute that election fraud in general, and programming of electronic voting machines to switch votes to the Republican candidate was the major reason for the exit poll discrepancies in both elections. Why then did Obama win, if the Republicans had the capability of committing that kind of election manipulation?

The answer to that is that their election fraud capabilities are not infinite. Both pre-election polls and exit polls showed Obama winning in 2008 by a much larger margin, especially in critical (and formerly red) swing states, than John Kerry in 2004. Kerry ended up with only one state (Ohio) that was very close and would have given him an electoral victory. Obama, on the other hand, would have won with any ONE of a number of formerly red states, all which showed him with both exit poll leads and pre-election poll leads or virtual ties (including Virginia, Ohio, North Carolina, Indiana, Missouri, Colorado or Nevada.

So when I saw Obama with huge exit poll leads in VA and OH (of 9 and 8 points respectively) and good leads in NC and IN as well, it seemed highly unlikely to me that such large leads could be overcome with election fraud. Part of the reason for that belief was the Democratic performance in Congressional races in 2006. There were indeed substantial exit poll discrepancies in those elections – similar to what was seen in the 2004 Presidential election. But if Republicans had unlimited capability for election fraud, then why did they allow Democrats to take over Congress in 2006? And furthermore, this issue has been given a lot of attention since 2004. Obama’s leads in both the pre-election and exit polls in critical swing states this year were so great that the theft of a third consecutive Presidential election could have been too much for American citizens to bear. Even if the exit poll discrepancy this year had been substantially greater than in 2004, Obama still would have won. The theft of this election would have been much more difficult to swallow than the theft of the 2004 election.


Why this issue is so important

Like all other activities, some sort of independent monitoring is needed to ensure that election processes are conducted fairly. To settle any of a variety of disputes in our country we have courts of law and investigators to gather evidence. Our sporting events require referees.

Elections are the backbone of our democracy. Without fair elections we have no democracy. The central process of our elections is the counting of our votes. Yet we now have electronic machines that count our votes out of view to American citizens – in other words, in secret. That is not acceptable for a democracy.

As noted above, a large discrepancy between exit polls and the official vote count means either exit poll bias or election fraud. This is not a matter of making political points, or rubbing in a sound Democratic victory in the faces of our opponents. Exit polling is considered a standard practice for monitoring elections, and it is especially important when vote counts are conducted electronically, with no paper trail. There is a good reason for this: Large discrepancies between exit polls and official vote counts provide an important warning sign regarding the integrity of elections.

In the presence of large exit polls discrepancies, there is no way to know whether or not extensive fraud has been committed without an extensive investigation, including access to the voting machines. After three consecutive national elections manifesting large exit poll discrepancies well beyond the margin of error, and all in the same direction, it is way past time that we find a way as a nation to ensure that our elections are conducted fairly. Counting our votes in secret has no place in a democracy – especially when those doing the counting are heavy contributors to one of the participants.

In the next few days, weeks, or months the EDA will be conducting a thorough analysis to see what we can find out about the 2008 presidential election exit poll discrepancy.

We won in 2006 and 2008 because we had large, virtually fraud-proof leads. Had those elections been close, as in the Presidential elections of 2000 and 2004, we probably would not have won. Look what happened when we lost those elections. We just can’t allow that to keep on happening.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. keep k&r!
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tnlurker Donating Member (698 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. K & R - we must get to the bottom of this NOW. We know about there were
massive purges of the voter rolls in some areas, but clearly much more was going on. These discrepancies are far beyond chance. How many Congressional races did they steal this time?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Congressional races
I don't know how many Congressional races we lost yesterday due to fraud. We were concentrating on President, Senator, and Governor. I don't know if exit polls were done to assess the overall House vote this year.

Nor do I know much about what discrepancies were seen in the Senate. In the two Senate races that I was assigned to capture (NC and GA), there was no red shift -- in fact there was even a little blue shift in GA. And as of this point in time, we haven't lost any winnable Senate races, though 4 are still in progress. I do believe that I looked at the MN race and noted that Franken had a pretty decent exit poll lead over Coleman. So if we lose that one, that could be a possible loss to fraud.

But I really shouldn't speculate. The analysis will begin to take place soon, so we should have a pretty decent handle on it before to long. I'll keep you all informed about it, as I think this is very important.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Thank you! (I seem to say that to you a lot!) n/t
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bagrman Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Congress was the target, now they will try to blame everything that Bushco
has fucked up on the do nothing democrats. They have just enough to keep them from really fixing things.
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SoCalDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. For goodness sake post the raw exit poll data

I've been beating my skull into the walls trying to locate raw data. We need the raw data to evaluate it precinct by precinct to look for irregularities. In 2000 and 2004 we had the data and we found many discrepancies, such as vote totals flipping, counting backwards, exceeding the number of registered voters by large amounts, etc.

Please, PLEASE post the raw data.

Especially if your organization can get data on the close Senate elections. These are still up for grabs and need to be reviewed. I would start with Minnesota and Alaska, but there were other close Senate races that could of been incorrect.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The links to the raw data are gone
Edited on Wed Nov-05-08 07:33 PM by Time for change
Once the official results become available, the exit polls are "adjusted" to match the official results, as I said in the OP. After that, the raw data can no longer be obtained from the internet.

That's why we were doing screen captures all last night. Between the bunch of us, I believe that we captured the raw data for every state's presidential, Senate, and Governor's race. We then sent it to Jonathan Simon, who led and coordinated the effort.

He should now have all of the data in his posession. So it's not in my power to make this available publicly at this time. But it will become so in the near future. If you want to participate in the effort you should contact Jonathan -- Or I can get you in touch with him if you're interested.

Edited to add: If by the raw data you mean the actual individual data points, nobody at EDA has access to that at all. That's private property of those who conducted the exit polls. In 2004 we begged to have access to the data, but to no avail. I don't think we'll be getting access to that.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Thanks TFC
The exit poll data that was posted on CNN this morning could not have been mixed in with the official returns, could it? Not all official returns had come in yet, I believe.

So, if I am correct, the data hadn't yet been 'adjusted' to match the official results?

I do find it interesting that the margins always seem to go in one direction. Surely the exit poll folks have done everything they could to keep a balance across the boards?

And for those who mistrust the exit poll data, think about this fact: if the data could not be trusted then why would the networks pay for that data?



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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. That isn't necessarily correct
They don't necessarily wait until all the returns are in before adjusting them to match the official results -- and they may do more than one adjustment. My guess is that anything posted Wednesday morning would have been adjusted.

What are the figures you have for men and women?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-08 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. Figures
Minnestoa Senate race Franken - Coleman

2,350 respondents
Females 1,245 - Males 1104

Female vote

Franken 560 ..... Coleman 473

Male vote

Franken 429 ......Coleman 506

Totals

Franken 989 ......Coleman 979

CNN doesn't make it easy to do this, eh?
_____________________

Thank Johnathan Simon for us will you? He was a true hero in 2004 and it's great to know he's on the case again this time.




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PinkyisBlue Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. I'm glad there are people like you keeping an eye on this.
Many elections, like in 2000 and 2004, will be closer than the one in 2008; if the outcome can be changed due to election fraud, it would mean Democrats would be unable to win close elections. And that is unacceptable.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Yes indeed
The 2000 and 2004 elections produced disasters. We can't afford any more elections like that.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. Excellent work - this is so important and I feared we'd not get this info
Edited on Wed Nov-05-08 07:48 PM by eowyn_of_rohan
because of the fact they change exit poll results to match vote counts now (SUCH a scam). I didn't know at what point that change was made, til I read it here. Who really believed they would not skim votes for their candidate? I look forward to your future posts on this topic, when you get more info!
(Bookmarked this thread)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Thank you
I look forward to proceeding with this analysis. And I'll be sure to post it here when we have some additional substantive information on it.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. A thumb on the scale. Thanks, K & R. n/t
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EleanorR Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. hate to be a skeptic, but...
I do not doubt that there was hanky panky and I DO very much regard efforts to improve the integrity of our elections as very, very important. However, I urge folks to read two posts over at fivethirtyeight.com.

First, based on Nate Silver's models, the popular vote turned out incredibly close to his predictions: "Right now, Barack Obama has 63.7 million popular votes to John McCain's 56.3 million, whereas third party candidates have roughly a collective 1.6 million. That works out to 52.4 percent of the vote for Obama and 46.3 percent for McCain ... conspicuously close to our pre-election estimates of 52.3 percent for Obama and 46.2 percent for McCain." I cannot begin to explain his model, but the point is that the quality of pre-election polls varies a great deal and they generally overestimated Obama's performance and--this is key--in a predictable manner.
(http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/popular-vote.html)

Second, there are more methodological flaws associated with exit polls than most of want to admit. Again, I think Nate provides the clearest explanations: Ten Reasons Why You Should Ignore Exit Polls:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/ten-reasons-why-you-should-ignore-exit.html

Before I get flamed: I am not saying we totally blow this off, but I have to disagree that the available evidence so far from the exit polls is a smoking gun.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I didn't say that the exit poll discrepancy is a "smoking gun"
I said that it should serve as a warning flag, inciting us to be aggressive about investigating why it happened and demanding that our elections be made much more transparent than they are.

I won't try to understand Nate Silver's model, but clearly the average of polls was well above Obama's popular vote victory, as were the exit polls. And not only that, but they were on their way up. And the Zogby poll, which is generally regarded as the most accurate, had Obama at 11%, and rising.
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GhostofRichardRorty Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. Zogby most accurate?
Sorry, I will go with Nate Silver's analysis any day. Here is what he said on election day:

"It's Tuesday, November 4th, 2008, Election Day in America. The last polls have straggled in, and show little sign of mercy for John McCain. Barack Obama appears poised for a decisive electoral victory.

Our model projects that Obama will win all states won by John Kerry in 2004, in addition to Iowa, New Mexico, Colorado, Virginia, Nevada, Florida and North Carolina, while narrowly losing Missouri and Indiana. These states total 353 electoral votes. Our official projection, which looks at these outcomes probabilistically -- for instance, assigns North Carolina's 15 electoral votes to Obama 59 percent of the time -- comes up with an incrementally more conservative projection of 348.6 electoral votes.

We also project Obama to win the popular vote by 6.1 points; his lead is slightly larger than that in the polls now, but our model accounts for the fact that candidates with large leads in the polls typically underperform their numbers by a small margin on Election Day."

He missed on Indiana, but not much else. "Warning flag" or "smoking gun," the question is whether the difference in exit polls and results warrants fears of election fraud in every state where there was a difference. I think Eleanor is right--is doesn't. If there is a case to be made there, it will be supported by close analysis of the Minnesota recount, for example.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. That's circular reasoning
You point to a particular analysis that happens to match the official results, and you use that to claim that both the official results and that analysis accurately reflect the way that voters voted. All that proves is that Silver's analysis matches the official results. What other reason do you have for believing that his analysis is superior to most others? Zogby has a long track record over many elections of acurate predictions -- before electronic voting machines came into widespread use.

Then you assert that exit poll discrepancies don't warrant "fears". First of all, I'm making a case for being concerned about this and investigating it and demanding transparent elections. If you don't think that is warranted, then please explain why.

And yes, the Minnesota recount may provide us some very valuable information on this, and I'm looking forward to it.
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GhostofRichardRorty Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
34. Because Silver's is not just one survey

Silver does what is known as a meta-analysis--a mathematical synthesis of many surveys. For many reasons, any single survey is prone to all sorts of errors. And, not to nitpick, but I believe Zogby has been around since about 1984, and voting machines were around decades before that (http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa111300b.htm). Maybe you just meant touch screen?

The key here is NOT our conclusions: We agree that we must demand transparent elections. The difference is whether relatively small (less than 5%) differences between exit poll data and reported voting results is prima facie evidence of fraud or malfeasance. I am skeptical, and remain so. But we are on the same side.
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-08 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. K&R'd, thanks, and --
Edited on Wed Nov-05-08 11:29 PM by snot
This work is extremely important. I might want to copy large portions of this on a blog; pls let me know if that would NOT be ok.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. Absolutely -- Go ahead and do whatever you want with it.
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johan helge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
19. Great post. One question:
Karl Rove (!) writes (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122593304225103509.html): "The raw numbers forecast an 18-point Obama win, news organizations who underwrote the poll arbitrarily dialed it down to a 10-point Obama edge, and the actual margin was six." Is the reduction from 18 to 6 ok?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Interesting
I'll believe anything Karl Rove has to say when pigs fly.

If Obama had an 18 point lead in the exit polls, nobody at the Election Defense Alliance caught it. As I note in the OP, as far as we can tell, raw data from the exit polls indicated a lead of 8.3% for Obama.

But why would Rove lie about that -- other than the fact that he's a pathogenic liar? My take on it is that he was just trying to trash exit polling in general, because he knows that it's one of the tools that can be used to detect election fraud, which is his main skill. Notice how he starts out his discussion of the exit polls: "For the third election in a row the exit polls were trash..." Yeah, right, Karl, national exit polls have been trash ever since you've been involved in manipulating our national elections.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
20. Great post

We won in 2006 and 2008 because we had large, virtually fraud-proof leads.

As I stated weeks ago - NOT THIS TIME - we had 'thief-proof' numbers and Rethugs knew it.

Bravo Dems!!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. NOT THIS TIME
This will hopefully be a turning point in U.S. history :toast:

Now that we're in control we'd better reform our election laws so that we don't continue to need fraud-proof majorities in the future.
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LongTomH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
26. Thanks for your efforts on this!
Now, let's fix this broken system! :yourock:
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. Issue has to be continued to be researched and nailed down whether natural or evidence of fraud.
This issue has to be continued to be researched and nailed down as to whether it is a natural occurence (Republicans under-responding or falsely responding) or evidence of election machine fraud.

Regardless, this country needs national minimum standards for national level offices (President, Senate, House, Governors) that include printed paper ballots so that the voter has a verified vote they can trust and there is an auditable recountable set of ballots.
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musiclawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
30. Many threads recently arguing of repeal of HAVA,
and restoration of paper and adolishion of proprietary machines and code---one of the first five things that this congress must get done. I don't think it will happen unless we let congress now that is is as important as anything else.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I agree -- We need to let Congress know how we feel about this
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
32. Thank you for your good work, and for an excellent explanation.
:kick:
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