Is the Central Intelligence Agency honorable?

[arcadian]

Poll question: Is the Central Intelligence Agency honorable?

[Solon]

1. No, they were corrupted early on, by Gehlen and his Nazi assholes...

this isn't hyperbole. They have been involved in suppressing democratic movements worldwide, drug running, assassinations, along with supporting dictators for most of their existence. They are a blight on the world and the United States.

[bemildred]

2. Is this a trick question?

When the hell was the CIA ever about being on the up and up?

[JackRiddler]

46. Yes, they're watching how you vote.

[natrat]

3. trick question? every part of the federal government is corrupt to one extent or another now

[Solon]

6. Ah, but the CIA was corrupted since its inception...

Truman at least put a leash on them, Eisenhower, though, he released those hounds fully.

[Pavulon]

4. Was the OSS honorable?

[arcadian]

13. No

Born from Wall Street.

[Pavulon]

77. How about the SOE?

OSS was based on that model

[Sebastian Doyle]

5. A subdivision of Bush Crime Family, Inc. from day one.

Does that answer the question?

[DireStrike]

7. It's a SPY Organization...

Regardless of anything else, it's NEVER been honorable.

Did you mean do they serve the country? I have serious doubts about that.

[JackRiddler]

47. Not really - it's a covert policy apparatus...

that has more say in what happens than the State Department does.

Have we ever considered what it means that embassies of all "great powers" are actually spy dens? No wonder this world is so fucked up.

[soothsayer]

8. not since it was created under the national securitty act of 1939 or 41--I ferget which

authorized the abomination). No, it's one of the main reasons we do not live in a sovereign nation. They do things and spend money---billions and trillions---that neither we nor our elected reps are even AWARE of. And which, if we were, we would not approve of.

They suck!!

[Pauper]

9. The CIA participated in a cover-up of the Kennedy assassination

And I won't say they participated because I don't want to get in trouble.

[yardwork]

14. I think it's ok to say that here.

[dailykoff]

10. Is cancer good for you?

No.

[Double T]

11. Why sure...................

just like gwb. :puke:

[TahitiNut]

12. It's tough to depict reality with broad brushes and black and white paint.

:shrug:

[Solon]

15. What broad brushes?

Starting with Guatemala and continuing to this day, the CIA has participated in how many coups? Hell, they were so active in the 1960s and 70s especially that Congress had to try to reign them in, because they were doing everything in their power to circumvent not only Congress's authority, but violating their own charter by operating domestically. Hell, there are CITIZENS of this nation who will never be the same because they were tortured and experimented on by the CIA. These aren't charges of conspiracy nuts, but found in actual government documents and investigations about this organization.

[TahitiNut]

20. "Honor" is an individual virtue, NOT an organizational virtue.

Indeed, it could be (successfully) argued that organizations cannot have virtues. (I completely reject the notion that one inherits 'honor' from another by wearing the same clothing.) Furthermore, the conditions and circumstances under which one's individual 'honor' might be tested are far more complex and subjective than might be argued on a message board where the median attention span is about ten sentences.

[Solon]

22. Oh, ok, I guess I understand that...

I guess the correct terminology would be whether the CIA was an ethical organization or not. I would argue no.

[arcadian]

33. What about honor societies?

A group of people can act honorably or dishonorably if they act in concert. Aren't there merit ribbons in the military they give out to whole units?

[TahitiNut]

36. Just trying your hand at sophistries?

Try harder.

[arcadian]

41. Why the insults?

That is a funny graphic image. I have not seen that one, though the message is quite stale.

[TahitiNut]

49. Instead of lame rhetoric, why not discuss Valerie Plame and whether she's "honorable"?

:eyes:

If an organization can be 'honorable' does it become so by having 'honorable' people in it? How many? Do 'dishonorable' people nullify 'honorable' people? In what ratio?? Can a person be 'honorable' in an organization that also has 'dishonorable' people in it?

Just how fungible is honor? (When you answer that one, you might begin to understand my prior posts.) :shrug:

[stillcool]

16. Is the United States Government honorable?

[old mark]

17. If it was, it is not any more. nt

[EFerrari]

18. What brought this on?

:)

[arcadian]

27. Just curious as to how people felt about the ole CI of A.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

31. My family is from Central America. Half of us are in their pay

and half of us spit at the mention. lol

:hi:

[Occam Bandage]

19. Sure, why not.

[dailykoff]

21. Uh, because it's an extra-constitutional private hit squad.

Duh.

[Occam Bandage]

25. Will voting "no" make it stop being so?

[dailykoff]

26. No, nothing will. Its charter is evil and it's facilitated nothing but crime and tragedy.

Kennedy wanted to break it into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds, but the CIA and the criminals it serves didn't want that to happen.

[Occam Bandage]

28. Then, as I said: "sure, why not."

[dailykoff]

35. I just told you why not, so I'll leave this looking glass conversation to you.

:hi:

[Freddie Stubbs]

64. What provision in the Constitution is its existence in violation of?

:shrug:

[dailykoff]

71. All of them. The CIA is not restricted by ANYTHING in the Constitution,

yet it conducts its criminal activities in OUR names, with OUR tax dollars, making WE THE PEOPLE OF THE US liable for its crimes, and the days of reparations are coming my complacent friend, soon.

[Freddie Stubbs]

72. Even the 23rd Amendment?

:shrug:

[dailykoff]

73. Even the 23rd Amendment.

For example: the 23rd Amendment gives DC the right to appoint electors to the Electoral College. But the if CIA is using its inflitration of the US media to influence US presidential elections in the interests of the MIC--and the evidence is that it is--then it is violating the 23 amendment by interfering with DC's electoral influence, and frankly DC should sue. Of course, they won't, because it would be futile.

Why did you pick that one anyway?

[Vidar]

23. Guess that depends on how you felt about the Gestapo & SS.

[mitchum]

24. Never has been and never will be

[mentalsolstice]

29. I don't know about all agents being dishonest

I have a good friend that is ex-CIA (long, long time ago), who is as honest as the day is long. And he and his wife are very liberal. In fact, my husband and I meet with this couple and another couple regularly just to vent our liberal views among other things. I don't think I've ever laughed as hard as I've had, except when I'm with this group. We have way too much fun for people our age, and this guy's CIA experience just adds to the hilarity of it all.

[ThoughtCriminal]

30. Ask Valerie Plame

[Dukkha]

32. The real life Corleons?

Who funneled drugs into the inner city ghettos. NOT a tin foil conspiracy either.

[Greyhound]

34. It's very purpose is dishonorable. n/t

[lpbk2713]

37. Their HQ building was named after Boosh 41

That pretty much says it all for me.

[Enthusiast]

58. And this is what happened to President Carter

He should have purged the CIA of strong H W Bush influences.

[Jed Dilligan]

38. I don't think honor applies to organizations

It's as honorable as its head and staff at any given time, which is to say, usually not very.

[readmoreoften]

39. They were at their best when they were running around dosing each other with LSD.

In the 80s it got all right-wing-death-squady and child slaughtery. I don't think its gotten much better since.

[riverdeep]

70. They weren't just dosing each other, they were also dosing

unsuspecting American citizens, among them US soldiers.

Take a look at Dr. Ewen Cameron, and the horrors he committed. All paid for by US tax dollars.

[readmoreoften]

74. Oh, yes, ol' doc. They also dropped lightbulbs full of bacteria in the NYC subway system in the 60s.

But let's not give them ALL the credit. There's also the DIA... the defense intelligence agency. The neocons considered the CIA to be 'too liberal.' It gives one pause to think of what "less liberal" might mean.

[Stinky The Clown]

40. I think there are honorable people in the CIA. Always have been.

But I also believe there have been total dirtball shits in there, too.

I think it is reflective of where we are as a nation at any given time.

[Deep13]

42. Is the balloon sharp enough?

Sneakiness is the whole purpose of the CIA. Nothing about their purpose has anything to do with honor even when they are following the rules.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Sure. In the same sense that fathers that kill their daughters are acting out of "honor".

Except the CIA thugs are somewhat more efficient at it.

[mmonk]

44. Some who have served in it that I know are.

[defendandprotect]

55. Compartmentalized . . . much of the corruption isn't in the open . . .

[mmonk]

60. That's true.

[Kip Humphrey]

45. It used to be in a skewed, weird "Super Patriot" sort of way before it was gutted & RNC'd.

[defendandprotect]

62. NO--!!! The CIA was founded based on Nazi intelligence officials brought here . . .

after WWII by Dulles -- with their families they were more than 58,000 --

See: Operation Paperclip

They were funneled into founding of CIA, also into FBI - and of course NASA.

[alfredo]

48. Read "The Dark Side" by Jane Mayer

[Toucano]

50. I nearly voted yes.

They are so NOT honorable that my brain refused to accept the words "Central Intelligence Agency honorable" and instead I saw "Central Intelligence Agency terrible".

HONEST TO GOD!

Only when I saw the results of the poll did I have to do a double take to realize my error.

Whew, close one!

[MrSlayer]

51. No but it's necessary.

And if used correctly is invaluable. When used incorrectly it is terrible thing.

[defendandprotect]

54. It's not necessary; we have intelligence agencies all over the place...

including all the armed services.

It has never been and never will be used "correctly" --

It is intended as a power base for elites and fascist moves ---

[MrSlayer]

57. So, someone doing the job that Valarie Plame was doing for instance, is up to no good?

Certainly they do a lot of fucked up things but they also serve a purpose that is part of actual National Security. If what they do covertly wasn't done under the name CIA it would be done under a different acronym. The people that run the show are going to do what they do no matter what, that's never going to change.

[defendandprotect]

63. The people truly in control made sure she was sidelined ...

Plame was working on stuff they didn't want tracked --

[fla nocount]

52. Either this poll is being freeped or the Blue Dogs have been at the...

Kool-Aid again.

[defendandprotect]

53. What could those 10 be thinking--?

The idea of creating agencies with so little supervision was insane --

especially linked to the MIC --

[katukov]

56. Are you kidding?

The CIA is implicated in all US war crimes from its inception. It has never been about gathering intelligence. It is about screwing with the internal politics of other countries, coups, and death squads. It has committed more war crimes than you can count.

[hootinholler]

59. What? No WTF!? who are you trying to kid option? n/t

[unhappycamper]

61. In the 40+ years the CIA has been in existance, they've gotten exactly one thing correct.

They called the six day war before it happened.

Want a good read on the CIA? -->

[bemildred]

66. "Is the CIA useful and competent for any legitimate public purpose?"

Better question?

[unhappycamper]

68. Competent? = no

Useful? Perhaps, but I doubt it.

[bemildred]

69. It's hard for me to see how you can have a stable, productive international order

based on extensive use of cloak and dagger methods to pursue "national self-interest". For agreements to work, they have to be pursued and adhered to honestly in the light of day, without any undermining going on in the shadows.

[ensho]

65. no

nt

[NeedleCast]

67. Think you'd have take it individually

I don't think organizations are capable of having honor or not having honor.

[Chemical Bill]

75. Is the CIA monolithic?

Is everyone there the same? Is Valerie Plame just like Bill Casey was?

Bill

[struggle4progress]

76. Limit CIA Role To Intelligence (Harry S Truman / Washington Post / 1963)

The Washington Post
December 22, 1963 - page A11
Harry Truman Writes: Limit CIA Role To Intelligence

NDEPENDENCE, MO., Dec. 21 — I think it has become necessary to take another look at the purpose and operations of our Central Intelligence Agency—CIA .... I think it is fairly obvious that by and large a President's performance in office is as effective as the information he has and the information he gets .... Therefore, I decided to set up a special organization charged with the collection of all intelligence reports from every available source, and to have those reports reach me as President without department "treatment" or interpretations .... For some time I have been disturbed by the way CIA has been diverted from its original assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy-making arm of the Government .... I never had any thought that when I set up the CIA that it would be injected into peacetime cloak and dagger operations .... We have grown up as a nation, respected for our free institutions and for our ability to maintain a free and open society. There is something about the way the CIA has been functioning that is casting a shadow over our historic position and I feel that we need to correct it.

http://www.maebrussell.com/Prouty/Harry%20Truman's%20CIA%20article.html

[Douglas Carpenter]

78. The CIA is an instrument of the foreign policy apparatus of a Super Power

It is no more or less honorable or dishonorable than the U.S. military.

If one does not believe that there should be super powers and having super powers is immoral - or that America should not be a super power - then the CIA is dishonorable.

If one believes that super powers are necessary or at least America as the world's dominant super power is a lesser evil than the alternative, then one would have to logically conclude that the CIA or an equivalent of the CIA is necessary.

What is not an alternative is America as a super power without the CIA or an equivalent of the CIA. Just as America cannot be the dominant super power without its military apparatus.

Serving in the CIA is no more or less honorable or dishonorable than serving in the U.S. military, the diplomatic service or any other apparatus of American hegemony.